Behind the Iron Purdah

Re: # 122
hamidm, I think the desi cheating tendency has a lot to do with our values where a lot of emphasis is on respect, obedience etc. Our socities are basically normative.I tell my younger brother- ``I have no problems with you smoking but if you get caught by Mom or Dad, you are on your own, In fact even I may land a blow or two.``

In the UK Pakistani females are lagging behind in careers and professions, but there are exceptions and one of them is ms sayeeda warsi vice chairman of the conservative party in some tv debates she really excels against political opponents. Who knows she might become the first brit-paki minister.

Age - 34
Town of birth - Dewsbury
Education - Birkdale High School, Dewsbury College, University of Leeds - Law; York College of Law
Profession - solicitor
Parliamentary background - Tory candidate for Dewsbury in 2005



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4121724.stm

Re: # 133

but also wanted to add, that one reader I showed this article to, remembered an incident that took place in the eighties. She and her husband were visiting a friend`s lab. The woman, a Pakistani American scientist, was wearing slacks and a sweater as it was the dead of winter. Apparently this bothered a much younger woman at the lab, who, according to this reader, was wearing a very dressy shalwar suit and full makeup. The younger woman asked the reader how she could identify herself as Pakistani if she was wearing ``Amrikan clothing``...the reader was going to ask the young woman why she was dressed as if she were accepting marriage proposals at her workplace, but decided it was worth it.

But the reader`s point was that too many women police each other in terms of these issues. As Marjane Satrapi pointed out in Persepolis II, totalitarian Iran was so successful in defeating everyday Iranian citizens because the concerns of women were no longer about education, civil rights, labor and political participation-they were forced to direct that energy to worrying if they werent addressed ``appropriately`` enough for the regime.

Aslam #123 {``BTW brits and germans are moving there big time, I even met a brit paki who`s opened a restaurant there.``}

Aslam,
They are smart. Now is the time to get into real estate in Turkey, especially near the coast. Once Turkey becomes part of EU, in Neverember :), prices will skyrocket. Tourism is incredibly a big big business here. Relatively cheap prices, beautiful scenery, tolerance for almost everything (except drugs and fanaticism), and a very safe, low-crime environment. This place reminds me of Spain many years back.
I am quite interested in your accounts.
Salim

samir:
#128

how do you expect to discuss women’s issues or rights in patriarchal muslim countries like pakistan without bringing into the discussion who did what? that’s important to know and understand, so it can be prevented from happening repeatedly.

but if you choose to place the burden of this on women then it’s your prerogative. and i reserve my right to not agree with your premise and resulting conclusion.

miriam

Bina,

Who else but the usual suspects are here to discuss womens` lives? Why are you even remotely surprised?

Outside of chowk-which becomes more enabling of the cyber mcp psychopath, I showed your piece to a few female fam members. They very much agreed with the extremes you pointed out in terms of the achievements of some womem and staggering lack of oppportunities available for most.

On the clothing controversy, suffice it to say that:

Hijabs should not be worn on the beach and thongs should not be seen in the mosque. :)

I think Jesus said something similar. :)

Salim

Aslam #123, {`` was there 2years ago in Bodrum holiday resort, I heard many brit girls complaining about Turkish men pestering for date and they wouldn`t take no for an answer. ...BTW brits and germans are moving there big time``}

Aslam,
That seems to be a dichotomy. They get pestered for dates and then they move there big time.... maybe they like to be asked out. :)

I apologize if I painted a very rosy picture of Turkey. There are exceptions everywhere and Turkey is not perfect. But, ever since the urge to merge with the EU, Turks have made great strides in the area of social development. Of course there is poverty and I don`t doubt there might be honor killings, but nothing at the scale of Pakistan. I saw no evidence of hunger, malnutrition, people sleeping in the streets, or signs of drug addicts in the big cities. There is poverty in even in UK, US, and Western Europe. My experiences were based on large cities (Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir, Edirne), the countryside, in both Asia and Europe, including the Anatolian plateau area around Konya, Aksaray, Nevshehir, Bulandshehir, Urgup, and other smaller towns.

Once it becomes part of EU, Turkey will be fully on its way to a much better society.
One thing is very remarkable - Turks do respect their fellow citizens and it is rare to see them talk condescendingly to workers. Anyway, I am having a very positive experience about Turkey after having traveled extensively in North America, South America, Western and Central Europe, South Asia, Southeast Asia, Far East, and Australia/NZ.

Thanks for sharing your own experiences in Turkey.

Salim

hamidm mian#122: ``the word ``fair`` was not in our vocabulary ........... come to think of it, i cannot think of the urdu equivalent - can you ?``

fair: adj. munsifana......

``twelve year old will not let me help her with her homework because ``it is cheating````

I have to hand this one to the gora sahib. He definitely does not cheat on exams. I taught at university, part time, for around two years. None of my gora students would cheat. They would flunk the exam, but would not cheat..........I could walk out of the room and they still would not cheat........

On the other hand, the desi (and chaptas also) biradari is masters at it. One interesting thing I discovered was that our friends from India were even two steps ahead of us. Thereby, tearing down my theory, that there is no match to Pakistanis in cheating. As a stundent, I felt like an amateur in comparison to them. They were the true masters. They were in a league by themself. Pakistani students use to copy each others software programs, and make changes manually, to make it look different. That is a very laborious process. Our Indian friends actually wrote a detailed script. They would run one person`s program through it, and it would spit out ten different versions for his colleagues to submit as their assignment.......

Similarly, when I was teaching, I had to make sure, without being politically incorrect, the desi student biradari sat in one area, so I could stand there and make sure they didn`t cheat. There was a Pakistani student who had an A in the class. He was, like most desi students, quite bright. Yet he would try to cheat. I even told him that, look you already have a A, you are so bright, why the hell are you cheating!! I guess he couldn`t control himself......

The kicker was, however, one Indian student, who would walk out to go to the bathroom, right before I gave a quiz. I found that odd. One day I followed him. It turned out, he would go into the office, where the photocopy machine was. I would copy the quizzes before the class started, and would throw away one or two copies. He would quickly grab a copy from the machine or the wastebasket, and review it, before the quiz. I didn`t know whether to turn him in, or to be in awe of his courage and skills......

I would say, ``cheat`` is too strong a word though. Desi students, are in a foreign land, with no money, against tough odds. Your daughter has you to support her, and has money and a citizeship and access to govt. grants. If she flunks a class, no big deal. If a desi flunks a class, it may be back to India or Pakistan.

I would call it being, ``resourceful........`` The few desi students that I did catch cheating, I just couldn`t bring it about myself to turn them in for expulsion. They would get kicked out of the university and then the country........I would at worst, flunk them in the class, or lower their grad by a letter or two.......

Re: # 122 hamidm

``Fair `` - don`t know the urdu for that..... In hindi, the equivalent is ``nyay`` and the opposite is ``anyay``.....But your point is noted. Desi mentality for cutting corners is legendary. To play fair is not considered a virtue - which is why everything is so f***ed up back ``home``.

But in real world - it doesn`t pay to be a saint either. Remember, nice guys finish last. Cunning is a necessary tool - but it`s a thin line....

Re: # 127

Last night I was thinking about cultures untouched by organized religion ..... like the aborigals and tribals living in Amazon forests, Native Americans and tribals in India, Africa. They are naked all the time, except for a piece of covering here and there. Yet they have respect for each other and men don`t grope ................ I hope. I guess their Adam and Eve did not eat the apple ...

But what about our Adam and Eve? They ate the apple! And hence became ashamed of their nudity! (It`s all metaphorical ... if you care to understand) .... so do we want to go back in time and blame Adam and Eve or we want to work around it? If we are arguing if it was Adam`s fault or Eve`s then we are just wasting our time. And I am not at all interested in such arguments.

- Samir Shaikh

samir:
#126

The basic concept remains the same, no matter what you wear .... a woman who displays her assets is equated to a prostitute (or a disrespectful woman). So it is upto the respectable women of today to decide what to wear and how to behave in order to disassociate themselves from the unrespectable women.

i think you and i had better agree to disagree. i find remarks like this rather amusing. it’s men who turn a woman into a prostitute, pimp her, sleep with her for money. then they categorically decide that she’s a disrespectful woman, and so any woman who emulates her in dress must be disrespectful also.

it must be comforting to live in such a black and white world.

best,
miriam

Re: # 111

Miriam,
I am not trying to pick on you, on the contrary I agree with your position;
Wearing a hijab has nothing to do with spirituality. It is a very practical thing, actually.
If you consider the historical context, during those times, in Arabia illegal activites and particularly Prostitution was rampant and an accepted part of society. Hijab was recommended to women to distinguish themselves from the prostitutes who deliberately exposed themselves for obvious reasons. Taking that context in mind, Hijab became a symbol of a respectable woman, and men avoided making passes at them. Similar to the idea that men avoided making a pass at a woman who was wearing a mangal sutra or a sindoor.

Of course the standards of modesty have changed in today`s world. And I am sure respectable women today avoid as much as possible not to dress even close to what prostitutes wear or the way they behave in public, namely, dress up to expose their ``wares``. The basic concept remains the same, no matter what you wear .... a woman who displays her assets is equated to a prostitute (or a disrespectful woman). So it is upto the respectable women of today to decide what to wear and how to behave in order to disassociate themselves from the unrespectable women.

There will always be men who will act disrepectfully towards you no matter how respectfully you are dressed or how well you conduct yourself ..... but that`s a separate matter and refer to Amrita`s post about re-educating them. (which I agree with).

- Samir Shaikh

There seem to be more men interacting here than women. Telling. Anyway, I was wondering why you men don`t start some kind of movement where you educate your lesser-enlightened brethren about the proper ways to treat women, instead of leaving it to the onus of Pakistani mothers to teach their sons? Where are you as fathers, as elder brothers, as uncles, as grandfathers and even as friends when it comes to making men behave themselves? Maybe you should be creating and running awareness campaigns and speaking out on this issue. Men are more likely to listen to men that they look up to, rather than women. I suggest that some of you with some influence talk to Pakistani role models - Imran Khan, Musharraf, Inzamam, businessmen, other admired people in Pakistani society - and get them to do some sort of PSAs on the issue. It would at least be a start.

mirium # 113:

… rabia seems like a bright and assertive woman. i just hope for her sake she understands clearly the reason(s) she wore a hijab. at first, i thought this was a gesture of modesty but i just picked up on the “s” word :)

upon reflection:

salvo was the wrong word…will withdraw that…hope you and rabia would understand the persiflage… at this time cannot think of a suitable substitution

lve

t