Behind the Iron Purdah

#102 by hamidm2 on August 27, 2005 7:26am PT
temp,
...... morning,
....... actually i am convinced that our kids have a much better value system than we ever had ....... for example, they don`t lie and cheat - which i believe are the biggest sins and the root of all evil ........... however lying and cheating are an integral part of the desi culture and we do it all the time without even realizing that we do it ....... ``}

Good evening, Mr. Hamidm2,
I totally agree with your evaluation.
For a good example, please see my Turkish perspective below.

BTW in the 2nd para, ``Turkish continent`` should read ``Turkish contingent.`` :)

Thanks,
Salim

yaar asal baat yeh hay

kay

all cultural transference in kids takes place between the incubation and age three...where is that unmitigated rascal shanker?

the rest of our fights with kids are territorial

if you are truly convinced that ...

mk, people are always `truly convinced` that such decisions are their own....the mind responds to external pressures in very subtle ways.

Friends,
Let me give you a Turkish perspective. In Turkey, they wrestled with all these issues - women`s rights, western values, Islamic law, literacy, hijab, harems, polygamy, and beards. A patriotic, determined, utterly incorruptible, and wise man cam along approximately eighty years ago and changed everything - from how Turks write, how they think, how they behave, and how they live.

Today, in Turkey most people can read. There is democracy in the streets, secularism is enforced, polygamy is banned, prostitution is legal, adequate medical treatment is free for all, crime is low, capital punishment is not allowed, and beards are rare (even Turkish mullas are clean-shaven). The armed forces are strong (Turkey hasn`t lost a war in almost ninety years!), people are against war anywhere, no one starves, rape is uncommon, Turkish women are safe on the streets, alcohol flows freely, Turkish beer is excellent and inexpensive, most men and many women drink, alcoholism is almost nonexistent, and Islam flourishes in the mosques and people`s personal lives. Turkey has always had the largest continent during many past Haj pilgrimages. There is freedom of expression, freedom of movement, and freedom from state-controlled religion.

This success is the result of wholesale commitment to freedoms - not just pick and choose the ones suiting the Turks` peculiar prejudices. Relations with Israel are cordial. The only nagging problems are Kurdish separatism and rare display of Al-Kayda presence among a very very miniscule minority.

Also, I have noticed that women have all the rights found in western societies. They can be born without their parents resorting to selective infanticide, they MUST go to school, they can marry as they wish (most have boyfriends), they can drive, work, own property, vote, govern, run for office, and travel without any hindrance. The one significant difference is that in Turkish society, it is considered extremely rude for women to argue with men in public. Turkish women are very patient, hardly ever curse or swear, and never upstage their males in public. At home everyone knows who is the boss. :)

Before all you Pakis pack up all at once and decide to move to Turkey, please remember to leave behind your extremist views, your intolerance, your provincialism, your sectarian wars, your love of violence, and your corruption.

Thanks,
Salim

rabia:
#87

if you are truly convinced that your decision to wear a hijab is your own, then more power to you. but as someone said earlier, thank allah for living in the U.S. where your right to wear a hijab is protected under the constitution just as your right to take it off is, if you ever chose to do so. had you been living in afghanistan in the time of taliban rule, you wouldn’t have been blessed with that right. you also wouldn`t have been able to get an education, a career, a place of your own, and a myriad of other things.

our rights can be taken away in an insidious manner. there have been too many fanatic rumblings in pakistan to just ignore this issue. that’s what bina is trying to convey.

you keep harking back to the ills of american women. all of us here are educated and sufficiently informed to know that other women in the world experience injustice. however, bina has chosen to written about pakistan. when she or someone else writes about the U.S. the discussion will center around american women. for the moment let`s do right by pakistani women.

m

temp,

...... morning,

....... actually i am convinced that our kids have a much better value system than we ever had ....... for example, they don`t lie and cheat - which i believe are the biggest sins and the root of all evil ........... however lying and cheating are an integral part of the desi culture and we do it all the time without even realizing that we do it .......

...... it is very difficult to take anything that a desi tells you at face value, and they are so good at deception that it is hard to tell when they are not telling the truth ......... and they lie for all kinds of trivial reasons: `` i can`t come to your party because chotu has a fever`` instead of, `` sorry, i am going to another party``, or ``janab-i-ali, bari umer hai appki, abhi abhi aap ka zikr ho raha tha`` when actually they were cussing you and your grandpa before you walked in ............ and so on ..........on the other hand, i wouldn`t dare tell my kids to tell somone who calls that i am not home, because i would get ``that look`` .........

......... to be honest, we have little to give to our kids except biryani and chicken karahi ....... even there we are on shaky ground because i suspect they would rather have macaroni and cheese ..........

hamidm2

Right on.

We might want to be careful about a few more things - not confuse our village values for universal values, not drill into our youth a fictitious siege mentality, and keep our youngsters away from other people or literature that would quickly nullify all our effort at maintaining sanity.

There is nothing more attractive to an immature human mind than a sense of being born to rule over others, and a sense of being discriminated against by a corrupt world.

yaar hamidm

am sure u have realised this by now

there is nothing short of opening a halal food franchise with virgin daiquiris and margaritas at the base camp of K2 that would satisfy our kids...nothing

however there is no harm in transferring some universal values...like not pissing on the neighbour`s lawn...

yes, the kids would do fine...down the ages kids have been doing fine;)

we were kids once too

good saturday morning!

kaal, temp,

....... our kids will do just fine if we leave them alone and stop pushing our ``values`` on them - our village values are highly over rated and sometimes the imaginary product of nostalgia and ennui ......... it would also help if we stopped embarrassing them in public by wearing sneakers with dress pants and make an honest attempt to correct our V`s and W`s ............

kaalchakra sahib

i did mention `all` immigrants not singling out any one

and these teething troubles resolve themselves over time

wishing you peace

Not as smoothly as I would like to it, Temporal ji. I have missed many visits to the gurudwara of late :(

---

The inter-generation chasm here is of the strange sort. Instead of Americanizing itself and learning something good, the younger generation is running toward the caves (or Canada), as it were.

rabia bibi,

...... hijab is a silly political statement that people like you keep on pushing regardless of the fact that it undermines you as a woman and a human being ..........

`` Irrespective of one`s perspective, the fact remains that the hijab is an instrument of segregation and containment. It marks the Muslim woman for separation and for `different` treatment. Muslims who claim that hijab forces society to treat women in a special way (in terms of security and respect) do not work to ensure that the society has affirmative laws in place to guarantee equal outcomes for women. So, hijab ultimately undermines equal opportunity.

``But the sartorial hijab—with its attendant social practices of segregation, disenfranchisement and marginalisation of women—is only a symptom of a more profound and civilisationally debilitating form of hijab practised by the contemporary Muslim society. What is more significant and needs vigorous confrontation is the epistemological hijab that `good` Muslims insist on imposing on `good` Muslim women. ``


you can read the rest at : http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/khan20050420.htm

kaalchakra #93:

don`t waste your pity here

the intra-generation chasm exists worldwide

and more so in immigrants...( read all immigrants)

how is your self-discovery of sikhhism coming along? are you more peaceful and contended?

Samir # 84:

first, thanks for responding :) (and that too in good spirits)

i will keep this simple…

without going into myriad of other factors we see that implementing simple traffic laws is a gargantuan task of brobdingnagian proportion…and compared to the thrust of bina’s article…adhering and complying with traffic laws is relatively straightforward

poultry farming at the summit of K-2 appears far easier than inculcating respect for women in my fellow desis

rgds

t

ps: rabia: never said we did not understand what you said!

I pity those American kids who are being brought up as Pakistanis (or Indians) and wonder what the parents of these kids are doing in this country.

What a totally totally misguided frame of mind...I hope it changes before the costs become too high or unbearably painful.

rabia,

..... it is silly to compare the institutionalized discrimination and abuse of women in pakistan which is supported by the law of the land, with the individual cases of violence against women in america ......... karo-kari, where ayesha`s father and brothers kill her in the middle of the night and then bury her in the fields, is not the same as bubba beating his woman to death in the trailer park .......... bubba goes to jail while ayesha`s brother gets re-elected to parliament ........... see the difference ?????

now your question : ``Why is it that other Muslims have more issues and objections to a woman wearing hijab than non-Muslims? ``.............. because they make us all look silly and set a bad example for our daughters who we are trying to raise as independent women who are not ashamed of their hair ...... besides, it is really not modest when you are also wearing a skin tight pants and pants - someone needs to tell these girls that breasts and buttocks are more arousing than hair ! .......... just as most ``normal`` reform jews are ashamed of their hasidic brethren who run around in funny clothes doing idiotic things like sucking on little boys` penises, we are ashamed of our lunatic fringe ........... unfortunately, our lunatic fringe is too large to ignore .......... hope that answers your question