Behind the Iron Purdah

Re: # 127

Last night I was thinking about cultures untouched by organized religion ..... like the aborigals and tribals living in Amazon forests, Native Americans and tribals in India, Africa. They are naked all the time, except for a piece of covering here and there. Yet they have respect for each other and men don`t grope ................ I hope. I guess their Adam and Eve did not eat the apple ...

But what about our Adam and Eve? They ate the apple! And hence became ashamed of their nudity! (It`s all metaphorical ... if you care to understand) .... so do we want to go back in time and blame Adam and Eve or we want to work around it? If we are arguing if it was Adam`s fault or Eve`s then we are just wasting our time. And I am not at all interested in such arguments.

- Samir Shaikh

There seem to be more men interacting here than women. Telling. Anyway, I was wondering why you men don`t start some kind of movement where you educate your lesser-enlightened brethren about the proper ways to treat women, instead of leaving it to the onus of Pakistani mothers to teach their sons? Where are you as fathers, as elder brothers, as uncles, as grandfathers and even as friends when it comes to making men behave themselves? Maybe you should be creating and running awareness campaigns and speaking out on this issue. Men are more likely to listen to men that they look up to, rather than women. I suggest that some of you with some influence talk to Pakistani role models - Imran Khan, Musharraf, Inzamam, businessmen, other admired people in Pakistani society - and get them to do some sort of PSAs on the issue. It would at least be a start.

mirium # 113:

… rabia seems like a bright and assertive woman. i just hope for her sake she understands clearly the reason(s) she wore a hijab. at first, i thought this was a gesture of modesty but i just picked up on the “s” word :)

upon reflection:

salvo was the wrong word…will withdraw that…hope you and rabia would understand the persiflage… at this time cannot think of a suitable substitution

lve

t

mohar,

``And lying and cheating is NOT as bad as you think - it`s a necessary survival tool in the real world``

......... you prove my point - that typifies the desi mindset .......we were brought up to think that since everyone is doing it we have to in order to survive ........ of course kids do lie, but here when they do it they are very well aware that they are doing something wrong and are usually very bad at it ......... my twelve year old will not let me help her with her homework because ``it is cheating`` and she refuses to share her work with her friends because ``it is not fair``............ the word ``fair`` was not in our vocabulary ........... come to think of it, i cannot think of the urdu equivalent - can you ?

Re: # 122
hamidm, I think the desi cheating tendency has a lot to do with our values where a lot of emphasis is on respect, obedience etc. Our socities are basically normative.I tell my younger brother- ``I have no problems with you smoking but if you get caught by Mom or Dad, you are on your own, In fact even I may land a blow or two.``

Re: # 122 hamidm

``Fair `` - don`t know the urdu for that..... In hindi, the equivalent is ``nyay`` and the opposite is ``anyay``.....But your point is noted. Desi mentality for cutting corners is legendary. To play fair is not considered a virtue - which is why everything is so f***ed up back ``home``.

But in real world - it doesn`t pay to be a saint either. Remember, nice guys finish last. Cunning is a necessary tool - but it`s a thin line....

hamid:

missed that post...yes...

a friend is a gp...she says the hijabi traffic for pills and abortion (yes, astaghfirollah!) through her clinic has grown exponentially since zina ul haq went up in smoke

samir:
#80

how to re-educate and re-socialize the pak. man?

it begins in the home. a fundamental change in how pakistani men are raised. mothers have a greater influence on a young child. so, change the way we educate our women who will be future mothers. teach pakistani women to respect and value themselves as human beings, not just as a man’s wife/mother/daughter/sister or property. and in turn, their children will be educated and socialized according to those values.

i realize the practical aspects of this are largely nightmarish but one has to begin somewhere.

m

hamidm mian:

throw those old fashioned ideas outta window

being mindsful i will only quote my son`s experiences...hijabis do have more fun...(insert choice icons here)...am amused and perturbed to inquire any further...maybe it is the TO air...rgds


miriam:

i understand:)...just that someone else also fired salvos at her for that

lve

t

Re: # 116

t,

.... i agree - see my post below on the dating habits of hijabis ........ as one close friend`s daughter, frustrated by her parent`s constant badgering about getting married, said, `` what do you want me to do ? ... put on a hijab (again) and join the msa so that i can find a husband like all those other girls ?`` ......... astagfirullah !

There is at least one hijabi woman who is as normal, as (mention all the wonderful human qualities here), and much much more than any other woman.

But we are speaking of a social phenomenon, not of individual people caught up in it.

And there ARE undeniable tangible rewards to going along with men`s rules.

miriam,

......... not that i want to defend rabia - god forbid ! - but there is a positive side to wearing the hijab ........ it does give these women a chance to meet like minded men and hijabi women do have an easier time landing husbands (as in fish) even though they might turn out not to be ``keepers``............. regardless of the islamic injunctions against the inter mingling of sexes and pre-marital dating, hijabi women have no problem with it - the hijab sanctifies ``immoral`` behaviour .......... go figure !

t,
#112

i’m all for cutting her slack and being supportive of any decision she makes, as long as it’s truly her own. rabia seems like a bright and assertive woman. i just hope for her sake she understands clearly the reason(s) she wore a hijab. at first, i thought this was a gesture of modesty but i just picked up on the “s” word :).

m

106 was directed at hamidm

miriam :)

cut her some slack or someting like that

rabia:
#87

i missed this somehow in my earlier reading of your post. but how exactly is wearing a hijab making you progress in your spirituality? isn’t the spiritual journey an internal one? i’m sure there are enough people here who will jump in to correct me if i’m mistaken.

m

Re: # 111

Miriam,
I am not trying to pick on you, on the contrary I agree with your position;
Wearing a hijab has nothing to do with spirituality. It is a very practical thing, actually.
If you consider the historical context, during those times, in Arabia illegal activites and particularly Prostitution was rampant and an accepted part of society. Hijab was recommended to women to distinguish themselves from the prostitutes who deliberately exposed themselves for obvious reasons. Taking that context in mind, Hijab became a symbol of a respectable woman, and men avoided making passes at them. Similar to the idea that men avoided making a pass at a woman who was wearing a mangal sutra or a sindoor.

Of course the standards of modesty have changed in today`s world. And I am sure respectable women today avoid as much as possible not to dress even close to what prostitutes wear or the way they behave in public, namely, dress up to expose their ``wares``. The basic concept remains the same, no matter what you wear .... a woman who displays her assets is equated to a prostitute (or a disrespectful woman). So it is upto the respectable women of today to decide what to wear and how to behave in order to disassociate themselves from the unrespectable women.

There will always be men who will act disrepectfully towards you no matter how respectfully you are dressed or how well you conduct yourself ..... but that`s a separate matter and refer to Amrita`s post about re-educating them. (which I agree with).

- Samir Shaikh