Behind the Iron Purdah
Bina Shah August 25, 2005
#132 Posted by mannu404 on August 27, 2005 12:44:41 pm
On the clothing controversy, suffice it to say that:
Hijabs should not be worn on the beach and thongs should not be seen in the mosque. :)
I think Jesus said something similar. :)
Salim
Hijabs should not be worn on the beach and thongs should not be seen in the mosque. :)
I think Jesus said something similar. :)
Salim
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#133 Posted by Saminasha on August 27, 2005 12:52:03 pm
Bina,
Who else but the usual suspects are here to discuss womens` lives? Why are you even remotely surprised?
Outside of chowk-which becomes more enabling of the cyber mcp psychopath, I showed your piece to a few female fam members. They very much agreed with the extremes you pointed out in terms of the achievements of some womem and staggering lack of oppportunities available for most.
Who else but the usual suspects are here to discuss womens` lives? Why are you even remotely surprised?
Outside of chowk-which becomes more enabling of the cyber mcp psychopath, I showed your piece to a few female fam members. They very much agreed with the extremes you pointed out in terms of the achievements of some womem and staggering lack of oppportunities available for most.
#134 Posted by miriamk on August 27, 2005 12:52:32 pm
samir:
#128
how do you expect to discuss women’s issues or rights in patriarchal muslim countries like pakistan without bringing into the discussion who did what? that’s important to know and understand, so it can be prevented from happening repeatedly.
but if you choose to place the burden of this on women then it’s your prerogative. and i reserve my right to not agree with your premise and resulting conclusion.
miriam
#128
how do you expect to discuss women’s issues or rights in patriarchal muslim countries like pakistan without bringing into the discussion who did what? that’s important to know and understand, so it can be prevented from happening repeatedly.
but if you choose to place the burden of this on women then it’s your prerogative. and i reserve my right to not agree with your premise and resulting conclusion.
miriam
#135 Posted by mannu404 on August 27, 2005 12:53:38 pm
Aslam #123 {``BTW brits and germans are moving there big time, I even met a brit paki who`s opened a restaurant there.``}
Aslam,
They are smart. Now is the time to get into real estate in Turkey, especially near the coast. Once Turkey becomes part of EU, in Neverember :), prices will skyrocket. Tourism is incredibly a big big business here. Relatively cheap prices, beautiful scenery, tolerance for almost everything (except drugs and fanaticism), and a very safe, low-crime environment. This place reminds me of Spain many years back.
I am quite interested in your accounts.
Salim
Aslam,
They are smart. Now is the time to get into real estate in Turkey, especially near the coast. Once Turkey becomes part of EU, in Neverember :), prices will skyrocket. Tourism is incredibly a big big business here. Relatively cheap prices, beautiful scenery, tolerance for almost everything (except drugs and fanaticism), and a very safe, low-crime environment. This place reminds me of Spain many years back.
I am quite interested in your accounts.
Salim
#136 Posted by Saminasha on August 27, 2005 1:06:35 pm
Re: # 133
but also wanted to add, that one reader I showed this article to, remembered an incident that took place in the eighties. She and her husband were visiting a friend`s lab. The woman, a Pakistani American scientist, was wearing slacks and a sweater as it was the dead of winter. Apparently this bothered a much younger woman at the lab, who, according to this reader, was wearing a very dressy shalwar suit and full makeup. The younger woman asked the reader how she could identify herself as Pakistani if she was wearing ``Amrikan clothing``...the reader was going to ask the young woman why she was dressed as if she were accepting marriage proposals at her workplace, but decided it was worth it.
But the reader`s point was that too many women police each other in terms of these issues. As Marjane Satrapi pointed out in Persepolis II, totalitarian Iran was so successful in defeating everyday Iranian citizens because the concerns of women were no longer about education, civil rights, labor and political participation-they were forced to direct that energy to worrying if they werent addressed ``appropriately`` enough for the regime.
but also wanted to add, that one reader I showed this article to, remembered an incident that took place in the eighties. She and her husband were visiting a friend`s lab. The woman, a Pakistani American scientist, was wearing slacks and a sweater as it was the dead of winter. Apparently this bothered a much younger woman at the lab, who, according to this reader, was wearing a very dressy shalwar suit and full makeup. The younger woman asked the reader how she could identify herself as Pakistani if she was wearing ``Amrikan clothing``...the reader was going to ask the young woman why she was dressed as if she were accepting marriage proposals at her workplace, but decided it was worth it.
But the reader`s point was that too many women police each other in terms of these issues. As Marjane Satrapi pointed out in Persepolis II, totalitarian Iran was so successful in defeating everyday Iranian citizens because the concerns of women were no longer about education, civil rights, labor and political participation-they were forced to direct that energy to worrying if they werent addressed ``appropriately`` enough for the regime.
#137 Posted by aslam644 on August 27, 2005 1:59:08 pm
In the UK Pakistani females are lagging behind in careers and professions, but there are exceptions and one of them is ms sayeeda warsi vice chairman of the conservative party in some tv debates she really excels against political opponents. Who knows she might become the first brit-paki minister.
Age - 34
Town of birth - Dewsbury
Education - Birkdale High School, Dewsbury College, University of Leeds - Law; York College of Law
Profession - solicitor
Parliamentary background - Tory candidate for Dewsbury in 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4121724.stm
Age - 34
Town of birth - Dewsbury
Education - Birkdale High School, Dewsbury College, University of Leeds - Law; York College of Law
Profession - solicitor
Parliamentary background - Tory candidate for Dewsbury in 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4121724.stm
#138 Posted by rahul_capri on August 27, 2005 2:06:15 pm
Re: # 122
hamidm, I think the desi cheating tendency has a lot to do with our values where a lot of emphasis is on respect, obedience etc. Our socities are basically normative.I tell my younger brother- ``I have no problems with you smoking but if you get caught by Mom or Dad, you are on your own, In fact even I may land a blow or two.``
hamidm, I think the desi cheating tendency has a lot to do with our values where a lot of emphasis is on respect, obedience etc. Our socities are basically normative.I tell my younger brother- ``I have no problems with you smoking but if you get caught by Mom or Dad, you are on your own, In fact even I may land a blow or two.``
#140 Posted by hamidm2 on August 27, 2005 2:28:56 pm
Re: # 133
samina,
........ i really think you should sign up for a one year diploma from Dr. Farhat Hashmi`s al-huda international (http://www.alhudapk.com/) .......... she recently moved to canada and if you believe the press is a lot more popular with pakistani-canadian women than irshad manji ............. as gaddafi said , ``muslim women are idiots`` who keep on shooting themselves in the foot (he also called arabs and palestinians idiots) ......... the man might be a bit of a gadfly but has done more for women`s rights than any muslim since muhammad ..........
samina,
........ i really think you should sign up for a one year diploma from Dr. Farhat Hashmi`s al-huda international (http://www.alhudapk.com/) .......... she recently moved to canada and if you believe the press is a lot more popular with pakistani-canadian women than irshad manji ............. as gaddafi said , ``muslim women are idiots`` who keep on shooting themselves in the foot (he also called arabs and palestinians idiots) ......... the man might be a bit of a gadfly but has done more for women`s rights than any muslim since muhammad ..........
#141 Posted by tahmed32 on August 27, 2005 4:45:28 pm
Eureka!! I have invented the solution to the pardah that will make BOTH women and mullahs happy. Provided below is the new fashion device for mullahs and jamaatiyaas: by putting this on, they will not be forced to stare at women on the street. (Any man caught staring at women on the street - as happens in Pakistan - will be required to put this on for the next 30 days first time, 60 days if caught again, and so on). Women will be happy because they will not need to wear the pardah. One drawback: Hijabi women will be unhappy because they will no longer be able to make their fashion statement and flaunt their holiness.
Blinders
+
Mullah
= Peace on earth``
Blinders
+
Mullah
= Peace on earth
#142 Posted by ZahraJ on August 27, 2005 6:49:32 pm
Bina:
All your concerns are very valid.
[On the one hand, we are mothers, daughters, and sisters, the most respected beings according to our religion; on the other hand, with honor killings, forced marriages, and domestic violence, you’d think we were animals that need to be kept in cages, bred according to the whims of our owners, and culled when we have outlived our usefulness. On the one hand Pakistani women are becoming Air Force pilots; on the other, sold as sex slaves.]
The above extremes and contradictions are indeed extremely disturbing. You cannot even apply a generic formula(of religion or culture) here expecting similar results in all cases. Even in one neighborhood, each household may nurture completely different views on basic women`s rights. There is no true freedom and independent identity for women in the Pakistani Social System. There are exceptions but those exceptions are very few and far between.
On second thoughts: Each culture has its own priorities. Giving women an identity and equal rights has never been the priority of the Pakistani Society. When we do not find the cultural world being fair and just, we jump towards the religion for some solace. After all, Islam gives a lot of rights to women and all the good stuff that we have been reading and hearing since our childhood. Who are the practitioners of that Islam? Who likes to practice the fair values of the religion?
All your concerns are very valid.
[On the one hand, we are mothers, daughters, and sisters, the most respected beings according to our religion; on the other hand, with honor killings, forced marriages, and domestic violence, you’d think we were animals that need to be kept in cages, bred according to the whims of our owners, and culled when we have outlived our usefulness. On the one hand Pakistani women are becoming Air Force pilots; on the other, sold as sex slaves.]
The above extremes and contradictions are indeed extremely disturbing. You cannot even apply a generic formula(of religion or culture) here expecting similar results in all cases. Even in one neighborhood, each household may nurture completely different views on basic women`s rights. There is no true freedom and independent identity for women in the Pakistani Social System. There are exceptions but those exceptions are very few and far between.
On second thoughts: Each culture has its own priorities. Giving women an identity and equal rights has never been the priority of the Pakistani Society. When we do not find the cultural world being fair and just, we jump towards the religion for some solace. After all, Islam gives a lot of rights to women and all the good stuff that we have been reading and hearing since our childhood. Who are the practitioners of that Islam? Who likes to practice the fair values of the religion?
#143 Posted by samirfs on August 27, 2005 7:53:19 pm
Re: # 134
Miriam,
Keep debating that issue ....
And when you reach a conclusion please let me know too ..... my e-mail address is pragmatism@practicality.com
-Samir Shaikh
Miriam,
Keep debating that issue ....
And when you reach a conclusion please let me know too ..... my e-mail address is pragmatism@practicality.com
-Samir Shaikh
#144 Posted by rsridhar on August 27, 2005 8:30:58 pm
re:#130 by Romair
There is no way to prove that Indian students did what u claim except that u are either bluffing or u are smoking pot again.
Or may be u just attract the worst crowd. Remember, like attracts like?
I have met many ``indian looking`` people in US who, when confronted with their nationality, told me they were Indians. Soon, i discovered they were Pakis. This happened once in YMCA where i used to go some years ago. Happened again in my work place where we get students (many Pakis) due to some affiliation with AGK University. One of them told me she studied in Punjab, India. Her name was a giveaway. She knew next to nothing about Indian Punjab.
So, my question is: why are Pakis so ashamed of their true identity?
Sridhar
There is no way to prove that Indian students did what u claim except that u are either bluffing or u are smoking pot again.
Or may be u just attract the worst crowd. Remember, like attracts like?
I have met many ``indian looking`` people in US who, when confronted with their nationality, told me they were Indians. Soon, i discovered they were Pakis. This happened once in YMCA where i used to go some years ago. Happened again in my work place where we get students (many Pakis) due to some affiliation with AGK University. One of them told me she studied in Punjab, India. Her name was a giveaway. She knew next to nothing about Indian Punjab.
So, my question is: why are Pakis so ashamed of their true identity?
Sridhar
#145 Posted by KaalChakra on August 27, 2005 8:45:02 pm
Samir Sheikh bhai # 143
``Pragmatism,`` ``practicality,``
brother, I couldn`t stop laughing, and it would be unfair to not let you know. :)
``Pragmatism,`` ``practicality,``
brother, I couldn`t stop laughing, and it would be unfair to not let you know. :)
#146 Posted by samirfs on August 27, 2005 8:49:59 pm
Re: # 145
chucka boom boom chucka boom boom chucka boom boom
boom ...... boom ..... boom
chucka boom boom chucka boom boom chucka boom boom
boom ...... boom ..... boom
#147 Posted by KaalChakra on August 27, 2005 9:46:20 pm
sheikh sahib
Some ``fundamentalist`` language that we children and ignorant people are not supposed to understand? :)
Some ``fundamentalist`` language that we children and ignorant people are not supposed to understand? :)
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