Behind the Iron Purdah

Now THATS an EXCELLENT example of comparision and contrast!

Getting back to the issue of people who want to see Pakistan emulate the Taliban


Yup..The taliban the Paki government created...the taliban that was supported by a majority of the pakis....

Strategic depth has left Pakiland in Deep shit...

...... it is not fair to kafirs....the believers can and do oggle kafir women.....and hide their behind purdah....that is not fair.....OFF with the Purdah.....

Purdah is worse than Sati....the women die everyday....wearing that black chadors in 100F + heat....

it is not the purdah itself but all the restrictions and subjugations that come with it.....it is a symbol of subjugation.....


Modesty is stupid excuse.....why don`t muslas make their hearts modest?

lesser beings ........

the other day i was talking to a friend who moved back to pakistan about twelve years ago because of his old parents ........... now he is thinking of moving back to the us because of his young daughter ....... he says, ``i don`t want my daughter to be treated as a lesser being`` ......

but there is hope .....

Gaddafi on women: ``Women should be trained for combat, so that they do not become easy prey for their enemies.`` In the West, ``the situation for women is hardly enviable: she has left home but only to confront a difficult fate, driving trucks & trains.``

........... and he has an amazonian guard ! .... sign up, ladies !

kaka seriously wants to know how old Bina Shah is.. Just the age bracket will suffice. Are you acting `bewildered, raised-too-pure` observer when you ask dumb question? Or are you being dumb asking bewildering questions?

`On the one hand, we are mothers, daughters, and sisters, the most respected beings according to our religion; on the other hand, with honor killings, forced marriages, and domestic violence, you’d think we were animals that need to be kept in cages, bred according to the whims of our owners, and culled when we have outlived our usefulness. On the one hand Pakistani women are becoming Air Force pilots; on the other, sold as sex slaves. We are constantly told of all the rights we have in Islam but apparently this doesn’t include the right to vote, as women are being disenfranchised in the NWFP as we speak. Pakistani women earn their PhDs in universities both at home and abroad, but every day in Pakistani villages there are girls who are taunted by their relatives and neighbors when they want to go to school.`

If you haven`t been able to resolve the `contradiction` above, then its time to stop writing further articles and submitting them to chowk.. and getting to know an atleast one intelligent person who will explain stuff to you.. After acquiring sufficient skills to parse and peruse the problem, you can come back and pontificate further.

``.......precious rights and liberties we stand to lose if we become complacent about our country. Ridiculous as the Iron Purdah seems...............``

Excellent article.........I have always maintained that we would pay a heavy price if we `tolerate` the mullahism in our own houses and backyards and not expect the mullahs to enslave us...................Pakistani society has tried hard to appear `purer` than the rest of the world and in the outcome of this pretext is the fact that the mullahs are now a formidable force in their society.........................I can see the Hasba Bill coming to other provinces as well despite whatever SC may say...............

The Hasba Bill, Zina ordinance and Honour Killing are inhuman and Un-Islamic as well. But at the same time, I think, the drawbacks of a nation is the responsibility of every citizen of that nation and no-one can shun it or disclaim responsibility. I think, it`s not only the responsibility of the citizens but of the entire world to nip these ideas in the bud.

I think what Islam teaches fundamentally is that men and women are different, not un-equal. Different biologically, physiologically, psychologically and genetically. It teaches us to acknowledge these differences and conduct ourselves accordingly.

- The Foolish Shaikh

The author makes the legitimate point that “separate but equal” never really is so in real life – the underdogs (the women in this case) always end up with the short end of the stick. However, the separation itself is wrong (irrespective of how adequate or otherwise the facilities) – and that needs to be emphasized.

It is difficult to figure out why half of the population – consisting of the women – puts up with this treatment – I doubt it has anything to do with the level of education (the author’s first example is striking) – probably more a result of familial indoctrination – which also explains why there is such diversity (in terms of the levels of accomplishment) among women – so that’s where the effort needs to be focused – and eventually will be!

#5 Dear Hamidm bhai
Please stop quoting outdated dictators who share the first part of their name with a very docile animal (gadha) – in order to not hurt the feelings of the (docile) animal! Also, women are not really looking for an “enviable” position – just to be treated as an equal – which means they would (and should) end up with the same challenges and opportunities as anybody else. (I have a feeling that all that hashish you were drooling over on the other board has already done some serious damage. (You didn’t think I was going to let you get away with that “adrak” remark, did you?))

Re: # 7

As Mush says........we clean up our house you clean yours..............that implies that we do that together without waiting for the the other to do his act......

........................and surprisingly Mush doesn`t realize that we can all see his government`s double speak when they act contrary and also say-

`` NO Trade, No Indian FDI before KAshmir``.......................

Re: # 9

beejay,

... i put gaddafi in the same category as michael jackson (with those silly uniforms and all) but he is the best the muslim world has to offer ..........

Sorry to say but this article is ridiculous. I understand the author is trying to make a point by illustrating extreme conditions in a society that allowed fundamentally un-Islamic ``fundamentals`` to take over; however, the point being made, is a poor one and poorly made also.

As the author herself has pointed out, we can find women in all parts of society and all over the spectrum with respect to their level of education, basic freedoms, career development, and general empowerment. Kind of like where I`ve grown up, the U.S. of A. I find it really strange that the author singles out Pakistan as an extraordinarily inhumane place for women -- the reality is that women have it hard all over the world, and all throughout history.

Women as powerful leaders, objects of desire, victims of abuse, tools of utility exist today and always have...and probably always will. The world may view the US as veritable heaven on earth for women but the sad truth is women here suffer in tremendous ways. Imagine a society where men, for the most part, will bed the women but refuse to marry them. Where women have struggled for years for the right to equal pay but it has led only to the right to support themselves and the children men have left behind for them to care for. As an attorney I work with so many other single female attorneys who are so desparate for a man to marry (so few will committ in this society) that they usually lie about their profession so men aren`t intimidated to even date them. This is a society where women are abused sexually, mentally, physically, by relatives and scores of boyfriends in a vicious cycle they often can`t escape. Drugs, alcohol, promiscuity do not a liberating society make....

And, by the way, there are religious extremist Christian elements in the US too. Ever heard of Utah? Or the Bible-belt? There are plenty of Christian polygamists who are way beyond the Islamic limit of four wives...in fact they create entire colonies with their wives and breeding factories as they hunker down and wait for the second coming of Christ. Popular news shows have done reports on these men and their penchant for pre-teen wives, even marrying a series of sisters and yes, even sometimes their own daughters. I promise you, women are considered chattel in different ways all over the world....

I`m a Pakistani-American Muslim women who does the unthinkable and wears hijab because she wants to. I feel sorry for my non-Muslim American female counterparts because they have to worry about growing old without companionship and wondering if they will ever have children. I feel secure knowing my rights and knowing there are good Muslim men out there who also know my rights. The muhala-mullahs in Pakistan are a product of the culture and don`t reflect Islamic values, they just use the religion as a means of control.

Anyhow, my basic point was women are and always have been on the short end of the stick. Pakistan is no different than the rest of the world.

Rabia

Women in Pakistan have problems, but women EVERYWHERE have problems.

rabia,

``I`m a Pakistani-American Muslim women who does the unthinkable and wears hijab because she wants to``

......... i feel sorry for you ........

#12 Rabia

Please answer the following simple questions to enlighten this ignorant person.

(1) Are the author’s intentions good or not? (Yes/No)

(2) Do you even believe that women in Pakistan are worse off compared to U.S., or not? (Yes/No)

(3) If the answer to (2) is “Yes” – should something be done about it or not? (Yes/No)

(4) If the answer to (3) is “Yes” – what is YOUR solution?

Taking apart a well-intentioned article is easy – let’s see you come up with some suggestions of your own, for starters!

Notes
[Imagine a society where men, for the most part, will bed the women but refuse to marry them.]
Excuse me Ms. Rabia, the way my rudimentary understanding is – it takes TWO to bed – or does the woman not even count from your perspective?

[This is a society where women are abused sexually, mentally, physically, by relatives and scores of boyfriends in a vicious cycle they often can`t escape.]
Are you sure you are talking about U.S. and not Pakistan? The point. my sweet lady, is that in U.S., the woman can walk away from a bad relationship – unless she has been mentally conditioned to remain a “pair kee jootee”!

[Drugs, alcohol, promiscuity do not a liberating society make....]
ANYWHERE!

[Ever heard of Utah? Or the Bible-belt? There are plenty of Christian polygamists who are way beyond the Islamic limit of four wives...in fact they create entire colonies with their wives and breeding factories as they hunker down and wait for the second coming of Christ.]
This is incredible! Are you okay being a quarter wife?

Re: # 14

beejay,

..... don`t waste your time - you are talking past a muslima who has bought the party line hook, line and sinker ......... that`s why, when my daughter went to college last year, i told her to stay away from the msa and any creature in a headjob who calls her ``sister`` ........ alhamdollilah, she is doing fine ..........

........... anyone who compares the state of women in the us to the chattel in pakistan needs help .........

bina:

great article. keep writing.

Our nation can be aptly described as a lunatic asylum masquerading as a country….

yup, that about sums it up.

beej (post #9) brings up an important point when he alludes to women putting up with this treatment. i think as long as even a handful of women give their tacit (in some cases not so tacit) approval the situation for women is unlikely to improve anywhere but especially so in pakistan. i don’t know about other desi women at chowk but i’ve met plenty of these complicit women over the years.

rgds
miriam

miriam,

``i think as long as even a handful of women give their tacit (in some cases not so tacit) approval the situation for women is unlikely to improve anywhere but especially so in pakistan``

...... but they are doing it everywhere in the muslim world - there is something in this insidious ideology that drives people to self destruction ............. reminds me of jones town

12 rabiaanwar

Wrote:

The world may view the US as veritable heaven on earth for women but the sad truth is women here suffer in tremendous ways. Imagine a society where men, for the most part, will bed the women but refuse to marry them. Where women have struggled for years for the right to equal pay but it has led only to the right to support themselves and the children men have left behind for them to care for.

Have you been to Pakistan? It`s even worse for women there.... women have no say there....at least the law protects them here.

Wrote:

And, by the way, there are religious extremist Christian elements in the US too. Ever heard of Utah? Or the Bible-belt? There are plenty of Christian polygamists who are way beyond the Islamic limit of four wives...in fact they create entire colonies with their wives and breeding factories as they hunker down and wait for the second coming of Christ.


Mormens.....Christians???????? The day Muslims call Ahmedi`s Muslims thats the day i`ll call Mormens ...Christians.


Wrote:
Women in Pakistan have problems, but women EVERYWHERE have problems.

True..... but please do us all a favour and visit Pakistan for a few years... your views may change.


Bina,

Keep on writing and make sure you provide strength the women there in Pakistan

#11, #14 Dear Hamidm bhai

[... i put gaddafi in the same category as michael jackson (with those silly uniforms and all) but he is the best the muslim world has to offer ..........]
Yeh kya mamla hai? Do I detect despondence? You got to stop sulking over those fishes of yours not doing so well (personally, however, I am very distrustful of the shrink – so make sure you double check any advice he gives to you on that score) and stop buying this “blame the Muslims” bit that is popular now-a-days – Muslims have their fair share of bad apples like anyone else – and the good ones too! In fact, I am hoping that all this forced introspection from the recent past will empower a lot more pigeons and enable them to overcome the cat! I really feel so.

[..... don`t waste your time - you are talking past a muslima who has bought the party line hook, line and sinker .........]
Let’s be fair, now! You have to admit that the fact the lady is interacting here is a good sign. If she can communicate – there is always the hope that she may not be totally impervious to reason!

#16 miriamk

[… i think as long as even a handful of women give their tacit (in some cases not so tacit) approval the situation for women is unlikely to improve anywhere …]

Actually I prefer to make the opposite point – that as long as there are even a few women who do not accept this second-rate treatment, there is the hope that the other women will get emboldened to oppose it too! That`s why articles like this have tremendous value (I am not talking about odds).

rabia:
#12

indeed, women everywhere are up against heavy odds. it’s an uphill battle for us. but let’s keep in mind that pakistan is a country where honor killings are practiced and condoned (not so tacitly). and please don’t play the culture vs. religion card when it comes to this issue. the bottom line is that it’s a reality women endure and have little or no recourse against.

miriam

Re: # 12

And Queen Mary ``Rabiaanwar`` Antoinette said, ``If they don`t have bread, why don`t they eat cakes?``

- the foolish shaikh

Re: # 22

{unlike our 5 times population holding giant envious neighbour who could not ascend women leadership to top}

UNCONTEXTUAL.

Nazia Zehra,
You are very positive and optimistic about the whole situation. That`s a very good sign. And your hint at the fact that women should themselves be responsible for the state of their affairs, is appreciated. I would like to take some liberty and read between the lines:-
It`s not what the men think about women in Pakistan, but about what women think about themselves that matters.

- the foolish shaikh

The worse position of women in Pakistan is in feudal and tribal areas. It is in feudal areas that all the honor killings occur. It is also in such areas where the women`s literacy rates are amongst the lowest in the world. The literacy rate for Baluchi women is around 4%. Feudal crimes against women are terrible. Women in such areas can be raped, pillaged and burnt, and no one bothers. An end to feudalism will be the biggest benefit for Pakistani women (not counting the women who are themselves feudals or their next generations)....

The second worse condition of women in Pakistan is in the uneducated religiously dominated areas. Which this article covers to some extent (I don`t know why such articles never talk about the feudal areas).

Urban educated middle class women in Pakistan are suppressed, as well. But in a more subtle manner. Much like they are in other third world countries, with certain cultural factors added in......

There is one group of women that does have it relatively well. And that is the upper class and perhaps even upper-middle class women. In some ways they are worse off than men but in some ways they are better off than men, also. This is the group, which should take the leadership positions to make things better for all women. However, this has been lacking. This group has the resources and in many cases the support to make a difference. But very few out of them seem to have the motivation. In this regard, I have found Indian girls to be far more active and motivated...........

There are certain interesting developments going on, with respect to women, which do indicate a change:

- The way Mukhtar Mai took on her feudal elites, is something that could not have happened even ten years ago. Who knows, maybe women will be the ones who break the feudalistic culture and mindset in Pakistan......

- There are more women in Pakistan`s assemblies and councils now, than there are even in the US or most European Assemblies

- Women are actually becoming fighter pilots. Having seen that up close and knowing how brutal and male-dominated that field is, one has to say if a Pakistani girl can become a miltiary pilot, she can become anything

- Girls top all the academic exams in Pakistan, now. I heard somewhere that there are more girls in Pakistan`s medical colleges than boys. In some medical college (KE?) it was 70:30 in favor of girls

I have a suggestion for the wahabi, sunni fundos of Pakistan. Please go for the ultimate purfication of your country and just kill all your women. Think about it. Without the women, there is no chance of moral corruption or unislamic values. Your country will be a 100% pure Islamic nation with impeccable values which you can be proud of. The rest of the world will be really happy for you as well as they eagerly wait for the next 30-40 years to go by :-).

Bina

To be honest, I am allergic to the Nikab Wallis. The other day, a Nikab Walli asked me in the aircraft to change the seat. I coldly said `No`. I would have politly done that for a NORMAL woman.

I find something unfair in this whole business. While she has all the freedom to look at my face, I do not have the same freedom.

On the other hand, the Burqa clad could have a genuine reason - the social, traditional and customs pressures & not the religious logic.

Millions of rural women still work Burqaless & Hijabless in the countryside with men.

I remember in my childhood - I only saw the Jamaat Islami women wear Burqa/Nikab. Then it slowly crept into the low middle Class.

Now the middle & upperclass also seems to be gradually getting infected. But the 40 or so TV channels are doing a good job in demolishing these taboos.

nhk

Bina:

This article was a sort of deja vu...at one of the stalls in Dubai, I was accosted by a woman in burqa to check out their wares. Their wares happened to be literature on Islam. One of them who took charge of me finally said, ``You know, I used to be like you...`` I, in tourist arrogance, imagined she was feeling sorry for herself; it turned out she was feeling sorry for me. She said she was a former model and used to dress ``like that``. Now, she felt `dignified`. I asked her that if this was ordained by the Quran, then so was the fact that men should avert their eyes when they saw strange women.

I was currently engaged in just such a battle on the letters pages of an Indian paper. In a controversial fatwa, the Darul Uloom has ruled that Muslim women should not contest elections and if they have to do they must do it under a veil. I have been shocked to see a few Muslim women take up for this disgusting edict...anyhow, won`t take up your space and discussion for that (Hope you don`t mind a plug, though:) Indians interested in reading further, please look at my Parsi board...the other relevant IM board has been taken over by UP, alas.)

PS: A gentleman acquaintance once told me that if I wore a hijab my sex appeal would shoot up...what these men won`t do to market their shackles...
- - -

romair (#24):

[And that is the upper class and perhaps even upper-middle class women. In some ways they are worse off than men but in some ways they are better off than men, also. This is the group, which should take the leadership positions to make things better for all women.]

In what way are they better-off than men? They just possess better camouflage. And why should leadership be a prerogative of the elite, anyway? It has been my experience that the best change takes place when `key` workers (that is those from one`s own environment) are trained to teach the others from their social/economic class. I have noticed this in rural as well as urban projects I have been involved in.

Incidentally, many of the women who are now talking `pro-choice` about veils happen to be from the elite class. Women who are intitated into it as a matter of patriarchal stereotyping have no voice, forget a choice.

Thank you all for your comments. I just want to clarify here that I am neither opposed nor in favor of those who want to wear hijab. That is a personal choice and I am all for it. What I was trying to talk about here was the insidious trend towards removing women (or women removing themselves) from the public sphere. There are already huge controversies up in the NWFP over the disenfranchisement of women and some LB polls where women were banned from voting have been declared invalid and the polls will be held again. If you want to wear a veil, fine. But remember that Muslim women in the time of the Prophet even went to war and fought side by side with their menfolk. You should not feel that your only rightful place is in your home. God made the world for both men and women and you should enjoy it, whether or not you feel you need to wear hijab, dupatta, burqa, or niqab to do so.

I am like a particle revelling in moving so fast between two extremeties, that to the naked eye I am stationary.

A couple of days ago I was sitting in a coffee shop trying to finish a presentation on my computer. I bought a latte and had just started on the presentation when two gorgeous girls came and sat across my table. They seemed to be grad. students and working on their college assignments ..... overhearing them, it seemed they were studying economics or something like that. One of the girls was wearing a light short (very short) summer cotton skirt and had awesome legs!! The other was wearing a low-waist jeans and had her back to me. Her string bikini thongs were stretched upto the waist and her jeans had slipped just so much that I could see her butt crack a bit. Both were blondes. The angel sitting facing me now crossed her legs and I couldn`t help noticing that she was wearing red silk thongs underneath. She glanced at me, tossed her wild hair and took a sip of her coffee................. I was typing ``God knows what`` on my laptop!!!! Then the girl in skirt moved her chair and sat in a semi-4 position, that is, not the cross-legged position of girls nor the open legged position of the guys, but somewhere in between. .......... The red silk thongs were in clear sight now. The girl in jeans then reached for her thong strings, played with it a bit and re-adjusted them so they were more clearly visible. Entranced for a good time, I shook myself up and looked around the coffee shop to see if anyone was watching me looking. I could see many eyes slyly peering from behind newspapers, novels and coffee cups. I felt relieved!!! I tell you, the girls were hot!!! I could bang them right there and then .....

But all good times come to an end and this one did too. My angels left the cofee shop. I got back to my presentation, still hungover from the ``nazaraa``. A moment later another girl, probably, the same age as my angels, took the same seat. She was wearing ......... well I did not notice what she she was wearing, something covering herself well, I am guessing. But her demeanour was quite graceful. I don`t even recollect her face now. She sat very ``prim-n-propah``. I never glanced at her more than twice, but I could just feel that her presence was making me concentrate on my presentation. Needless to say, the presentation was taking shape fast.

After a while she left too. She wasn`t wearing a head-scarf, or a burqa ..................... but I could have sweared I noticed a ``hijab``. It was not visible to the naked eye ..... No, No, not the translucent veil ....... but a hijab it was ......

If you encourage certain beliefs about gender, burqas - forced and voluntary - will naturally follow.

Re: # 32

Nadia,
That`s my exact point, dear friend. {God knows me in and out and I have nothing to hide from god} Men are not God. Men have all the short-comings. I am not God.

{If girls even start thinking how they look like or most importantly How people look at them then I say a thousand veils can`t protect them from murky eyes}

Did you read my post carefully? THE OTHER GIRL WAS NOT .... NOT WEARING VEILS, BURQA, HIJAB!!!!!

And please don`t tell me .............. Pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaase don`t tell me that when you go out half-naked, that you don`t care how you look, or if others are looking at you or not ................ I am toooooooooo practically minded a person to accept that.

Re: # 31

{If you encourage certain beliefs about gender, burqas - forced and voluntary - will naturally follow.}

If you encourage certain beliefs about gender, nudity and shamelessness - forced and voluntary - will naturally follow.

Fine line ..... tight-rope walk ....... Balance!

Well, the issue is - are we willing to tolerate certain limited amount of nudity and shamelessness or not?

Re: # 36
{why only women species should hide themselves and become a public denouncement everywhere}

I never mentioned that, did I?! Men should dress up modestly as well. More modestly than women I should say ..........

{It is only a lure of men who just want to weave an imagination upon seeing a woman in relaxed mood and stare with her as she is wrongly situated anywhere in society.}

You just reiterated my point, thank you.

{How come you know that the two girls doing assignments were not graceful its dubiously NOT DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the sitting positions and YOUR OUTFITS.}

I am sorry, I have no formula for that. I just sense it. Maybe, because at one point in my life a detailed study of body language was my passion ....

{ And how you think that GRACEFUL lady was upright in her ENDEAVORS.... }

Not endeavour, my friend ..... the word was Demeanour; the way a person carries herself or himself.

{This is where your mentality cease to go further with a demolished practicality and making you a fool who still thinks in pre ISLAMIC BEDOUIN way}

Believe it or not ............. some things ...... like some fundamental characteristics of man and woman haven`t changed since Adam and Eve and will never change. The point is to accept these in a practical manner and conduct our lives accordingly.

samirfs

``some fundamental characteristics of man and woman haven`t changed since Adam and Eve and will never change. The point is to accept these in a practical manner and conduct our lives accordingly.``

Do you believe that Islam is the ``natural religion?``

Re: # 38

Stop asking wrong questions, Kaalchakra!!!

{Do you believe that Islam is the ``natural religion?``}

No religion is natural. The fundamentals of a religion are natural. Religion is a man-made vehicle to transport those fundamentals to the mortal man.

Sorry! :)

Whenever I run into a Sufi, I can`t figure out what they really believe in.

I was trying to understand if there is any substance in your ideas or are you another Temporal bhai.

But I will leave you at peace.

---

My curiosity about sufism springs from the fact that Sufis apprpriate some Hindu ideas that they don`t understand one bit, and try to combine them with Islam, creating an illogical and incoherent belief system. I don`t know about Islam, but that is a huge disservice to Hinduism.

It is time Hinduism and Islam were evaluated on their own merits.

Re: # 40

Kaalchakra,

{It is time Hinduism and Islam were evaluated on their own merits.}

That will always be the difference between you and me. You will always be on the look out for the differences (un-fundamental), conciously or unconciously.
And I will forever be on the lookout for fundamental similarities, and stay away from non-fundamental stuff.

{My curiosity about sufism springs from the fact that Sufis apprpriate some Hindu ideas that they don`t understand one bit, and try to combine them with Islam, creating an illogical and incoherent belief system. I don`t know about Islam, but that is a huge disservice to Hinduism.}

I am not a sufi (some might say) ........... but I don`t care, it`s non-fundamental. And I am not at all attempting to do what you stated above. If your comment is aimed at certain so-called sufis .............. then it`s none of my concern. But if it was aimed particularly at me, I would disagree with your analysis.

Samirfs

If you find fundamental differences between Hinduism and Islam, along with fundamental similarities between the two, are you willing to acknowledge them?

Too much digression. Sorry, that debate doesn`t belong here on this board, Sheikh Sahib. My mistake.

Bina writes ``Ridiculous as the Iron Purdah seems, it just might become a reality if we continue to sleep while our rights as women are slowly taken away from us, one by one.``

Put aside the sensational journalism of ``what it could be if Talibans were to take over``, the reality is that the overall trend in world, and the Muslim world, is towards more awareness for women`s rights.

And besides, why just compare to Taliban? Why not to Iran? If author is indeed a fairminded person, she should also have brought up this fact that ever since Iranian women started observing hijab in public (since 1979), their literacy rate has doubled, their participation in workforce has doubled, a few of them have even made to becoming vice presidents as well. So clearly, ``purdah`` does not seem to have much correlation with iranian women`s progress.

While women of landlord background, like Miss Beena herself, are scaring the heck out of us, the common women in Pakistan have made some real and impressive advances. I have personally seen young scarf clad girls confidently serving as conductors in the night bus between Lahore and Islamabad. I still sometimes think about that mascara wearing scarf wearing waitress who welcomed me in the Pizza Hut of Jinnah Super, Islamabad.

These articles with ``purdah`` ``burkah`` ``hijab`` in titles are a disservice to the REAL women`s REAL issues. These titles tend to blur the real issues by linking every concievable ill to the Islamic concept of hijab. It also subtly castes hijab wearing women in a bad light - as if they were oppressed.

This kind of sensationalism that revolves around a piece of cloth tends to put the major issues behind an iron purdah.

Great article, Bina.

The graveyard point really resonated with me. My brother-in-law passed away suddenly, in Bombay, leaving behind my sister and her three young daughters (12, 10 and 8. They were not able to go to the funeral even though now the girls wish they had. It would have given them closure.

Now, after they became teenagers, on birthdays and other occasions or just because...my nieces would go to the graveyard, just to say a fatiha or feel close to their dad whom they adored. Invariably some maulana type would appear and keep harrassing them to leave. Imagine, these were like 16 year old kids trying to be at their father`s grave, emotional and trying to be alone and some idiot is telling them to leave. One man got really irate and threatened to come back with other people and drive them out. A couple of years ago they wanted to do a quran khani for their dad and went to buy some of the separate paaras. The guy was like, ``apney bhai ko bhejo.`` They said they didn`t have a brother. ``To phir apne abba ko.`` He`s dead...that`s the reason we`re here. ``Phir kisee bhi mard ko bhejo.`` All the while the entire shop and people from other shops in the area were clustered around ogling the girls, passing rude comments, etc. Makes me so mad.

Of course, the good thing is that there is no constitutional or legal basis in India for this stuff. Thank God!

The scenario you describe is really vivid and frightening. Thanks for this article, Bina.

Bina Ji,

A very good article raising very valid points. Although i do see rays of hope, with more women joining and fighting to join public life. Thou our society must encourage and facilitate womens` involvement more. Its nice to hear of women Jumbo Jet pilots and fightor plane pilots etc. these are the trailblazers and must be given their due respect.

However, a lot of onus is also on the women in power and positions and welath to help their downtrodden sisters. What many ppl fail to realise is that a woman who has been abused and downtrodden passes that pysche on to her children, male and female thus more generations of affected ppl grow up.

A healthy woman makes for healthy children, a healthy future for every country.

Allah aap ko hamesha bahimmat, bakuvvet, aur khush rakhey, ameen. Issi tarah laRtii rehna, inshAllah ik din porey vatan o millet ko aap ke jadojahid ka phall mille ga.

---

Rabia

This article if you read it once again is focussing on Pakistan and NOT any other country, it is not the concern of the author or the article to highlight womens issues in the USA, Europe or wherever else, she is concentrating on Pakistani women. Yes, women throughout this world have problems, but the focus here is Pakistani women, and if women throughout the world have it bad does that make it alright for Pakistani women to also have it bad? Why can`t we strive to improve our lot? Why should we resign ourselves to the `if americans have it bad, its ok for us to also` syndrome?

Its never ok, and no nation or people should ever be discouraged by using comparison or any other means, from improving their situation.

Bina Ji,

A very good article raising very valid points. Although i do see rays of hope, with more women joining and fighting to join public life. Thou our society must encourage and facilitate womens` involvement more. Its nice to hear of women Jumbo Jet pilots and fightor plane pilots etc. these are the trailblazers and must be given their due respect.

However, a lot of onus is also on the women in power and positions and welath to help their downtrodden sisters. What many ppl fail to realise is that a woman who has been abused and downtrodden passes that pysche on to her children, male and female thus more generations of affected ppl grow up.

A healthy woman makes for healthy children, a healthy future for every country.

Allah aap ko hamesha bahimmat, bakuvvet, aur khush rakhey, ameen. Issi tarah laRtii rehna, inshAllah ik din porey vatan o millet ko aap ke jadojahid ka phall mille ga.

---

Rabia

This article if you read it once again is focussing on Pakistan and NOT any other country, it is not the concern of the author or the article to highlight womens issues in the USA, Europe or wherever else, she is concentrating on Pakistani women. Yes, women throughout this world have problems, but the focus here is Pakistani women, and if women throughout the world have it bad does that make it alright for Pakistani women to also have it bad? Why can`t we strive to improve our lot? Why should we resign ourselves to the `if americans have it bad, its ok for us to also` syndrome?

Its never ok, and no nation or people should ever be discouraged by using comparison or any other means, from improving their situation.

hamidm:
#17

what’s insidious in this ideology is that it’s an organized behemoth which needs constant feeding to survive. it’s groupthink gone haywire. dismantle the organized component (is that even possible?) and maybe this unholy mess will start to sort itself out.

incidentally, the link you posted on zafar’s board (punishing disobedient wives) is enough to make one heave, and a perfect example of the complicity of some women in perpetuating this travesty.

m

Dear Bina Shah,

You article above is really a fun to read .Unfortunately, this does not present the true picture of Pakistani society.Exceptions are the part of every society and you can not genralizethese to the whole society.A country where a woman had run the office of Prime Minister not once but twice can not be viewed and judged properly in the light of your article.So please be honest next time when you pick up your pen.

samirfs:
#30

so, let me get this straight. you as a man are unable to control your base instincts. therefore, it becomes incumbent on every woman out there to do it for you by covering herself. isn’t that the same argument employed to keep women from occupying public spaces?

incidentally, some of the most unevolved of the male species reside in pakland, where women dress in shalwar-kameez and dupatta to boot. no short-skirts or low rise jeans in the equation but the men still manage to showcase their base nature.

i have some news for you. men who do not view women as sex objects and instead respect them as human beings and equals are not perturbed by what they wear. they also don’t use expressions like I could bang them right there and then .... upon seeing a bra strap or thongs. i know some of these lovely men so i can vouch for their existence.

m

miriamk

Women become complicit (in all religious travesties, not just in Islam) because in a world organized to serve the interests of men, women who play along with/align themselves with men win big. In such societies women don`t compete with men, they compete with women.

binoo:

:)

i smiled….even after articulating this article you had to come back and spell it carefully…I just want to clarify here that I am neither opposed nor in favor of those who want to wear hijab. That is a personal choice and I am all for it. What I was trying to talk about here was the insidious trend towards removing women (or women removing themselves) from the public sphere..

hijab is a fashion statement not a religious one…

lve

t

I think as the time progress, the participation of the women has evolved in all sphere of life in Pakistan.You take any university, top scorers are girls, any office whether government or private , you will find women and their number is growing day by day.When It comes to hijab, I do agree with you it is really a discreation not an obligation both in Islam and in society.

Imtiaz84 is right and well said ... very nicely put article bina sucg issues need to be debated more and more

re:#26 by ranjit
Most of Pakistan is tribal. From what i have read, tribal men in Pak would not miss women if all women were to be exterminated (as u suggest). I am told that pathans of NWFP are comfortable with homosexuality and bestiality. A common joke that is told in that part of the world is that a bird flies over that area with its rear end covered with one wing for fear of the Pathan!
On a more serious note, i do not know what is right. Is it good to be conservative or is it good to be a liberal?
Islamic fundoos are wrong when they force women to wear hijab just because they can`t see them as their equals. At the same time, the much touted women`s freedom in the West has some bad side to it. I see women happily married for many years suddenly getting divorced because husband has probably grown tired of the marriage and goes fishing in greener patures! Then there is the teenage pregnancy, single motherhood etc etc. One wonders where the women`s lib has taken the women in the West. Visitng India recently, i see Indian women falling prey to the same maladies as the western women did in the 60s. The middle class Indian women are breaking loose and they are forging new identities but in the process they are giving up their age old customs which they view as binding them to some steroetypes.
Buddha was right when he advocated the middle path.
Sridhar

(maaf kiji’aye post thoRi lambi ho ga’ee hay)

rabia # 12:

well said:

The muhala-mullahs in Pakistan are a product of the culture and don`t reflect Islamic values, they just use the religion as a means of control.

and

Anyhow, my basic point was women are and always have been on the short end of the stick. Pakistan is no different than the rest of the world.


…the insidious trend is nothing new…it is human nature to grab power…power tolerates not vacuum…

the dynamics that need to be reexamined are the separation and domination of the religious forces by the state power…(they were joint only till shortly after the prophet’s –(saw) death)…but in a span of over 1500 years since then the political forces have skillfully maneuvered the religion (forces) to serve at their beck…the best the religious forces have to show for in history is as a junior partner…a recent example of this would be the strong alliance between the wahabbis and the saudis … or the tenuous link between the MMA the machiavellian mullahs association and the occupying army...

never in the past 1500 years has the time been right…nor opportunities as available as now for the rigid and reactionary forces to grab (more) power

the near isolation of muslims worldwide…this emerging ghettoisaton of muslims…their (read: yours and mine) inability to stand up and fight regression amidst themselves has only emboldened these reactionary forces to grab more power…

if

if only muslims read

read into their religion and remove the blind spots, remove the blinds from their eyes…they would not be so docilely hoodwinked by these regressive forces that want to push the baby back into the womb

lve

t

FarzanaVarsey #28: “In what way are they better-off than men? They just possess better camouflage.”

Good question…..

There are some ways in which the elite women, in Pakistan, are better off than men. Though, on the whole, they are still worse off. They are better off in the following areas: they do not have the pressures of earning a living or even getting a education. They can pick and chose what they want to do. They can work if they want and not work if they don’t want. They are provided with a lot of labor at home. There is a cook, a driver, a sweepress, an ayah to look after the kids etc. They just have to order around their staff. They live in a very protected environment till they are married. Assuming they get a decent husband, I would say they have the most comfortable lifestyle of anyone in Pakistan (males included). Far more comfortable than the extremely busy lifestyles of professional women in the West…

My wife has to do nothing when we are in Pakistan…….Everything of hers is looked after…….She has to work 24x7 when we are in the West……. Though she enjoys the added benefit of the West, where she has no cultural pressures on her going out, staying in, dressing in a certain way, etc.….My schedule doesn’t change much, whether I am in Pakistan or here……..

“And why should leadership be a prerogative of the elite, anyway?...It has been my experience that the best change takes place when `key` workers (that is those from one`s own environment) are trained to teach the others from their social/economic class. I have noticed this in rural as well as urban projects I have been involved in.”

You are correct. However, you are thinking of India. The situation of women in Pakistan is quite different. I am basing this on the various interviews I do with Indian candidates and working with them. So I could be off. But I don’t think I am.

The initial leadership for any movement has to be taken by the empowered amongst the group. Martin Luther King was after all a Dr. And Gloria Steinam wasn’t working as a sweepress. They are the only ones who have the room and resources to start something. It is only after they have broken the glass ceilings that, “key” workers can do something.

This is missing in Pakistan. I have seen very very few Pakistani women who are willing to take leadership positions (medicine and teaching being the only exception). Take a cross-section of Indian and Pakistani, “bhabhis” in the West (or in Pakistan). You will see so many of the Indian wives with professional careers. While hardly any Pakistani women will have such a career. Even though, they are from similar economic backgrounds as the Indian girls and have supporting husbands and similar opportunities. At best, most will just write articles, etc. I think it is laziness and a lack of desire to be activist……..

There is, in fact, an interesting and dangerous contradiction developing in Pakistan. The most, “activist” women seem to be appearing from the two groups which at their core are the most harmful to women in Pakistan. Elite conservatively religious women are very active. And elite feudal women are very active.

So the women pushing, “women’s activism” in Pakistan are products and advocates of systems that suppress the most women in Pakistan………This is the biggest long term tragedy for women in Pakistan…....These women will blame each other, but never the and that feeds them.......This, in itself, shows the lack of professional urban women leadership in Pakistan. A leadership that needs to replace both these groups.......A leadership, which probably does exist in India……..So while I generally disagree with most of our Indian colleagues who keep painting India as being way ahead of Pakistan, the one area where India is factually and actually way ahead, is progressive urban women…….

Liberation of women in Pakistan requires three things:

- An end to feudalistic land holdings and mindset. Women are the biggest victims of this. This will liberate the 66% of the Pakistani women who live in rural areas. It will end things like honor killings etc. also
- An end to anti-women Islamic conservatism and mindset. This will liberate the 33% of the women who live in urban areas
- The empowered (hopefully not from feudal or religious class) urban women taking leadership positions in various sectors of the society

P.S. by mindsets, I don’t mean things like burqas and hijabs etc. Clothes do not equate to liberalization. I mean professional, social and economic progress……..

re: men and hijab
In the west, men and women can be friends. They could even be lovers if they want to. The choice is their`s and personal choices are respected in the west, however queer those choices are. Such choices are not available to most women in the Subcontinent, certainly not to most women in the Islamic world. Therein lies the difference.
The point i was making in my last post was: too much of anything is bad. Too much of freedom in the West is proving to be bad in the social sphere. One good American Cultural value system is Dating. It is a way boys and girls meet and get to know each other and develop respect for each other. But when this becomes a way of having sex (as i am afraid it has), then it has lost its value.
I have advocated that Indians in India should imbibe this American value system of dating and so should the Pakis. This does away in one stroke all the inequalities that exist in a society. Imagine if a boy and girl get married (after dating)just because they like each other and not because they belong to a certain class/caste and were forced to mary by their parents. Dating can do to the Indian society what social reformers of the past could not. I am glad that middle class Indians are slowly imbibing this concept.
Sridhar

kaal ji:
#51

you are indeed correct. islam doesn’t have to be present for women to be complicit in their own demise. it can happen in any religion. in fact i’d go one step further and say that religion doesn’t have to be a factor at all. women competing against women is ever present in corporate america. unless of course we say that the idea of a “man’s world” even in its ostensibly secular guises originally stems from organized religion.

miriam

Keeping in mind the feudal and conservatively religious environment in Pakistan, and what can and cannot be done, the following simple laws would go a long way in liberating and empowering women.......

1. A complete ban on labor of females of school-going age in feudal areas, i.e. no girl under the age of 22 (or so) will allowed to work in the fields

2. Free schooling for all such girls in feudal areas. Any landowner who disallows this on his land, will be prosecuted

3. All family law court cases will be decided by female judges

4. Any purchase of a house/loan will, by law, require the wife to be a co-signer, i.e. she gets half the house as in Canada

5. If religious interpretation of laws, related to women is (or has or must - chose your favorite preposition) to be done, it will be done by a group consisting solely of women

These are the things which will liberate women. Wearing or not wearing hijabs, fashion shows, sleeveless shirts etc. are all well and good. But dress is really not related to liberalism..........

miriam:

kyun tung karti hO?

****

digressons

there is no law
there is no order
there is no god
there is no ... well you get the drift

there is only army
and occupying army

la ilaha il lal army.. wal mushy jurnail al army

anyone who subscribes to this kalima can work miracles in pakistan

others can post diatribes like this on chowk

lve

t

Just like rape isn`t a crime of sex, but a crime of power, similarly suppression of women isn`t a crime of religion (or anything else). It is a crime of power, also. It is a social desire of strong groups trying to dominate others, thereby, getting a bigger piece of the pie for themselves. They will, thus, use anything to suppress anyone in a weaker position. Those who have access to land will use that. Those with access to religion will use that. And those with access to money will use that.

The solution, thus, isn`t in the disbanding of the arenas people use to suppress women. Just like the solution to rape doesn`t lie in banning sex or castrating all the males in the society. Nor does the solution to honor killings lie in shooting all the feudal Assembly members and land owners who, as a combined feudal group, never allow any legislation agianst it. Similarly, the solution to women`s suppression isn`t banning religion or shaving the maulvis.

The solution lies in empowering individuals who are victims of such crimes, to a point where they can hold their own against anyone suppressing them, in any sphere. The best way to do that is to get women to a point where they are the ones who make the decisions about what is specifically related to women.

In such a system, within the context of Pakistan, religiously conservative women can debate with liberal women on how women should dress, behave etc. There is nothing wrong with such a debate. If they decided they should wear burqas. Fine. If they decide they should wear bikinis. Fine. Similarly, within the US context, pro-life and pro-choice women can debate amongst themselves on abortion. At the moment, these decisions are made by an overwhelmingly set of male representatives.

Re: # 50

Miriam bi,

You read my post and picked all that was insignificant to discuss ........
In real space and time, I treat all women with high respect and regard, no matter how they dress or how they speak. But I was projecting, not my situation, but of millions of men across the globe. The men you know must definitely be the best of men, but what about the men you don`t know?

{so, let me get this straight. you as a man are unable to control your base instincts. therefore, it becomes incumbent on every woman out there to do it for you by covering herself. isn’t that the same argument employed to keep women from occupying public spaces?}

I never talked about a burqa, a hijab, or a veil anytime in my posts. You will never understand my concept of a hijab without a hijab. So I will not even attempt to explain to you. The other girl in my story wasn`t wearing one ... I write about not even recalling what she was wearing. And specifically mention that she was not wearing a burqa or a hijab. In my idea, if you don`t have a hijab over your modesty, no amount of ``pardas`` can conceal a woman`s shamelessness.

Finally all I can say in an attempt to explain my point is that I make it a point, when in public to have a veil of modesty over my demeanour (which manifests itself in the way I dress, talk, and act), and I think I command respect from most I meet. Now I am not against women dressing inappropriately in public or uncovering their modesty............. I never said that. All I am saying is ........ This is what happens out there.......... If women are OK with it ......... what do I care? I am not a Mullah. Who am I to say what to wear to whom. I just related plain practical, age-old facts .......... as bare, and natural as they can get. Like you mentioned about knowing men who are have no ill-meaning thoughts when they see a woman inappropriately dressed ..... I know men like that too (self included), and I know men who are like ``me in the anecdote``. I know women who don`t have a problem being perceived as sex symbols......... and I know women who have a problem of being perceived as sex symbols and take practical measures to see that they are perceived in the right light.

- SS

hey Bina, this was a really great read. I was reading the reviews of this art house flick a few weeks ago - Matribhoomi [Motherland], A Nation Without Women. it sounded a little too violent for me to just walk in and watch so I`m saving it for a day when i can face up to it, but it addresses a number of things you mention in your article.

one of the things that`s always struck me about situations like these, whether matribhoomi or margaret atwood, is the sheer violent nature of the societies thus affected. there seems to be something harder, less civilized in a way about societies that have ceased to listen to their feminie side.

anyhow, keep them coming...

`` gentleman acquaintance once told me that if I wore a hijab my sex appeal would shoot up...what these men won`t do to market their shackles... ``

Hmm, Hijab and bikinis...sounds pretty cool ;)

Re: # 50

Forget about Islam, forget about Pakistan, forget the mullahs ..... and then let me know your opinion about modesty. Not from any religious point of view, not from any gender point of view. Forget even what I said or wrote. Across cultures and nations ........ I live in the USA, considered the most advanced in terms of personal freedom. And is wel known for women dressing up scantily. They have been doing this for years now. It`s a part of their accepted culture now. Everybody should have got used to the female body by now. But I still hear, innumerable times, in innumerable places, lewd comments, or at least passing remarks, and ``glances`` at the ``freely`` dressed female, from teenagers to senile men nearing their death beds. A very matter-of-fact and practical observation I made. I guess people who are out-right against hijab, women or men, see nothing wrong in this kind of relationship between a man and a woman. It troubles me a lot.

-SS

ranjit #26, {``I have a suggestion for the wahabi, sunni fundos of Pakistan. Please go for the ultimate purfication of your country and just kill all your women.``}

Ranjit Bhai,
I have to be fair in my criticism. What you are suggesting to Pakis is already happening in high-tech India - thanks to the female infanticide as a result of sonograms and selective abortions. I hope that silly practice is stopped quickly.
Thanks,
Salim

Bina,
Excellent article and a good sattire on segregation - it is not too far-fetched. Let`s hope it never comes to this in Pakistan or anywhere else. That is exactly why I support the US effort in removing the Tally Bans from Afghanistan.

As for the lot of women in Pakistan, I tend to find some rationale in Romair`s last paragraph of his post #24:

{``There is one group of women that does have it relatively well. And that is the upper class and perhaps even upper-middle class women. In some ways they are worse off than men but in some ways they are better off than men, also. This is the group, which should take the leadership positions to make things better for all women. However, this has been lacking. This group has the resources and in many cases the support to make a difference. But very few out of them seem to have the motivation. In this regard, I have found Indian girls to be far more active and motivated...........``}

We all agree, at least I hope we do, that education, health, employment, freedom of movement and expression, freedom to choose one`s lifestyle, partner, and yes even sexual preference are basic, inalienable rights for ALL human beings. This includes male, female, Muslim, non-Muslim, and yes Hindus, Sikhs, Ahmedis, Shias and Ismailis. So, the restrictions on females, or any other type of human being, cannot be tolerated in this day and age. There are some items that don`t even merit any discussion anymore - slavery, genocide, suppression of women`s rights, human sacrifice, and suppression of free speech.

Now what to do about it? That`s exactly where Romair`s point comes in. Those fortunate enough to have these rights are the ones who need to exert themselves, so that those who are denied these rights obtain them quickly, fairly, and permanently.

Peace,

Salim

But there must be a distinction between women`s rights and the ghastly nightmare of feminazism. Uniforms can be tolerated, but SS Gestapo units cannot be allowed. My point is that once women (all women) have attained their basic rights, they cannot swing back and forth between the world of empowerment and the cushion of feminine license. No more ``I am the poor, weaker sex, I can dish it out, but God help you if you dish it back to me.``

In the US, thank God, we have come much closer to equality without feminazism. It took a long time, but we are getting there. I have heard a lot about the bra-burnin, Gloria Steinham types, and the abnoxious females of the late 60s and 70s. Paki men, you don`t know what you are up against if the Mullahs fail. :)

Thanks,
Salim

samir - i`m prolly catching the wrong end of the stick or maybe even the wrong stick entirely coz i havent read your earlier posts but... as a woman who has lived in multiple cities [and towns] around the world, i have to say that the amount of clothes is not the issue nor is modesty the issue when it comes to the kind of behavior you`re talking about.

men harrass women on the streets, pass personal comments, issue invites/ siuggestions/ innuendos, because 1) they feel like it 2) they feel it is acceptable 3) their immdiate society condones it. on the whole, harassment of women is not justified in any society [this is a generalization but fairly valid] whether you are on the subcontinent or in the states. but in several communities it is expected that the man will behave ``like a man``.

i remember being 12 and folowed down the street by a bunch of men in their 30s in my hometown and i was wearing a frock and no curves at all. another lady, perhaps on this site i dont remember, described being harassed while dressed in a burqa. justthe other day a desi uncle followed me out of the subway asking me ``for coffee`` - i was wearing a pair of jeans and a sleeveless top, not even a camisole but a proper top - maybe he had an arm fetish.

point is, clothes have less to do with what men feel about women than a whole lot of other things. maybe its time we started thinking about how we`re bringing up our litltle boys rather than telling the little girls to watch out for em.

samirfs:
#63

my point (#50) was that a woman’s modest attire or demeanor does little to deter the base nature/intentions of some men. women clad in shalwaar-kameez and dupatta (a modest attire by any standards) in pakistan have to dodge being groped in the streets.
men who don’t respect women will not do so even if women adopt modesty (both literal and figurative).

#66

i live in the U.S also, and i’m all for modesty as long as it’s exercised as a personal choice. the lewd comments you refer to are made by men who don’t respect women period. a woman could wear an oversized sweat shirt and she still wouldn’t gain their respect.

a woman being viewed as a sex-object is not a factor of modesty. it is a mindset of certain men, which a change of clothes or demeanor by the woman cannot alter. the lewd comments are just an avenue through which this mindset manifests itself.

m

#71, miriamk {``my point (#50) was that a woman’s modest attire or demeanor does little to deter the base nature/intentions of some men.``}

That`s right! When at the beach, I usually concentrate on building my sandcastles. It makes no difference whether they are wearing burqas, skirts, jeans, shorts, bikinis, thongs, or flosses. As most men will testify, the short skirts or the thongy thingies are not alluring at all. If you place a huge square box and write ``Caution: Female Inside`` we will go crazy circling that cube for an opening. :)
Salim

#71, miriamk {``my point (#50) was that a woman’s modest attire or demeanor does little to deter the base nature/intentions of some men.``}

That`s right! When at the beach, I usually concentrate on building my sandcastles. It makes no difference whether they are wearing burqas, skirts, jeans, shorts, bikinis, thongs, or flosses. As most men will testify, the short skirts or the thongy thingies are not alluring at all. If you place a huge square box and write ``Caution: Female Inside`` we will go crazy circling that cube for an opening. :)
Salim

{``Apparently a man came up to her as she was visiting a loved one’s grave and began to harangue her for being in the cemetery.
“But what was wrong with it? What was he upset about?”
“He told me that women shouldn’t be in graveyards.” ``}

Bina,
Is it possible that because women are a symbol of ``life,`` that there is some ancient, pagan, feritlity-related taboo against their going to graveyards - symbols of ``death?``

Salim

Re: # 71
#70 Amrita, #71 Miriam,

Those are very valid points that you brought up, and I agree with my heart and soul. But I was just wondering, aren`t we talking of two separate things here?
My argument:
True. No matter how modestly you dress or act, you can never be safe from a few men who are intrinsically evil by nature. But those are exceptions.
But making sure that you are modestly dressed will reduce the chances of majority of the women being mistreated/ abused. There is no deep philosophy to it, no fundaes, just plain simple logic and common sense. A brief study of statistics and probability in mathematics will make things clearer.

And believe me, any man, no matter how pure in thought and action, when he sees an exposed part of a female`s body, has sexual feelings directed towards her in varying proportions and degrees. That is a hard and brutal fact. If a man denies those feelings, he is definitely lying. He may not take any action or pass a lewd comment ........ but the thought is there ........ definitely there. Now, it`s a matter of sensibilities and intrinsic values about how much of a trangession you want on your self-image? Whether thoughts directed at you is OK or not .... or you are aggravated only when someone physically attacks your personality. It`s a matter of sensibilities.

- SS

samir:
re #75

But making sure that you are modestly dressed will reduce the chances of majority of the women being mistreated/ abused

not to belabor the point but do you think that dressing modestly for pakistani and other muslim women has achieved what you suggest in the above sentence?

i think what will prevent women from being mistreated and abused is much larger than attire. it is a re-education and/or re-socialization of men.

m

#75 and & 76

modesty of dress is rampant there

that seems to have zilch effect in bazzars and mohallas

re education and de-programming is needed on a scale that is impractical to deliver for now

yours ( miriam) is a cry in the wilderness

Re: # 76

You are deviating from the argument a bit, here ..... Education and Modesty ...hmmm.

According to me they are not separate issues but inter-related. If you have high education, but not understood the concept of modesty (in attire and demeanour)...... you have failed your education. On the other hand, mere modest attire without the right education is useless. So according to me, botht he isues are impotant and none supercedes the other, they should go hand in hand.

- SS

samirfs:
and how modesty is not a personal notion? and if not then WHO globally defines it?

i read your posts and then looked at the list of authors you have had on your page.. and you know what Ghalib chacha came to my mind

Hairaan Hoon kay Ro`oon ya Peetoon Jigar Ko main
Maqdoor ho to saath aik NohaaGar ko Rukhoon Main..

Re: # 76
Miriam,
I am sorry, I mis-read your post a bit.

{i think what will prevent women from being mistreated and abused is much larger than attire. it is a re-education and/or re-socialization of men}

Agreed. In the case of Pakistan, especially.
You presented a solution ... I was presenting the validity and relevance of modest attire.
I do not disagree with your idea of re-education and/or re-socialization of men. But unless we are sure we know what to teach them, how can we proceed? To re-educate them, we need to understand their intrinsic nature that God Himself has bestowed upon them. We can definitely teach them to be more civil and respctful. ........... But Wait a minute!!! Doesn`t the Quran already prescribe ways for this? About how a man should behave in front of other women?

This is what the Quran does:
1. Understand the intrinsic nature of man correctly.
2.Prescribe ways for women to protect their self-image from intrusions of evil thoughts and actions.
3. Prescribe ways for men how to treat women and conduct themselves in front of them.

Worth a thought, ain`t it?

- SS

samir sahib various posts:

you are far far out of us ordinary mortal’s temporal reach

please take some time to ponder and answer this query

how’d you propose to educate an average desi man to obey the traffic signs and out of sheer consideration for me please do not mention religion and god in your proposed solution…a k-i-s formula appraoch would be fine

once we achieve this miracle, we can move on till we inculcate a respect for all women ...

rgds

t

Re: # 79

Modesty is definitely a personal issue and varies from person to person. Then what is universal in that? ;
#1. The basic intrinsic nature of man.
It`s personal in the way that how much you let your sensibility allow the intrusion upon your self-image. If you want zero intrusion whatsoever ..... hide yourself away. Next is wearing an attire from head to toe, and the intrusion level increases from there. And if you don`t care about any intrusion whatsoever, you may roam about naked on the streets. There is nothing wrong in the different levels of modesty, if it balances out with the other factors of the society, because everything is inter-related. But if the society demands (the ``society`` and ``culture``, mind you .... not the clerics) demand a more modest or less modest attire, then you should respect that.

In varying the levels of modesty, the only person to be affected will be the person himself/herself ............. that`s how modesty is a personal issue and global at the same time.

- Samir Shaikh

Symbols like purdah, mangal sutar, rakhi, ghund kadna, etc. are meaningless rituals to confine or subjugate....practising or not of these symbols does not necessarily brings about respect or protection.

as i said earlier charcter of a society shouuld be modest

Re: #