33 Years and Counting
B Waraich August 26, 2005
#81 Posted by nb on September 4, 2005 3:56:29 am
Re: # 68
Don`t flatter yourself, it`s entirely possible for me to be biased against you because I know you!!!
Seriously though, I happen to think the following:
Omar did not do you any great favour by publishing your letter. He is not even the letters editor of Dawn. It was brave of his paper to admit that this could have happened.
I object to bunching together cases of POWs and regular prisoners. Why do people (rightly) make a fuss about Guantanamo bay, and the lack of the Geneva Convention being applied there, but forget that it does not seem to have been applied to these men, of whom your father was one?
Don`t flatter yourself, it`s entirely possible for me to be biased against you because I know you!!!
Seriously though, I happen to think the following:
Omar did not do you any great favour by publishing your letter. He is not even the letters editor of Dawn. It was brave of his paper to admit that this could have happened.
I object to bunching together cases of POWs and regular prisoners. Why do people (rightly) make a fuss about Guantanamo bay, and the lack of the Geneva Convention being applied there, but forget that it does not seem to have been applied to these men, of whom your father was one?
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#65 Posted by KaalChakra on August 30, 2005 5:08:05 am
``needs to provide a list...``
Harish, neither India nor Pakistan needs to provide any new list now because each country can always dream up, for the purpose, a mile-long list of fictitious names.
We should go back and look at those cases that have been raised repeatedly in the past.
Harish, neither India nor Pakistan needs to provide any new list now because each country can always dream up, for the purpose, a mile-long list of fictitious names.
We should go back and look at those cases that have been raised repeatedly in the past.
#64 Posted by dost_mittar on August 30, 2005 4:08:53 am
nb#61
``The captures were on the Indian side of Punjab just before hostilities broke out.``
No, I did not know this. How did these captures take place before hostilities broke out?
``The captures were on the Indian side of Punjab just before hostilities broke out.``
No, I did not know this. How did these captures take place before hostilities broke out?
#66 Posted by nb on August 30, 2005 7:36:10 am
Re: # 64
I never asked the writer how exactly, but I hope she will feel free to tell your own story if I get it wrong...
What I think they were told, that is the families, was that there was a Pakistani raid on a couple of border towns and that`s where it happened. I do remember clearly that they wre taken on the Indian side of the border and never seen again...and to think this was a war India won. Is that right, Dr Waraich?
I also wish to remind people that every time the Missing Defence Personnel`s Families Association tries to contact Pakistanis, they are told there are Pakistani POWs in Indian jails. However, I have seen for myself that every time she or others offer to take up this matter and ask for a list of names, there is a deafening silence from the other side.
The sad thing is that people like Omar can`t even see the human side. The writer is a woman, who when I called to tell her about the London bombings and that the ABC was saying ``Islamic terrorists`` were involved, said, ``Muslims are the most marginalised and persecuted people in the world now, maybe some of them can`t see an option``. So we are not talking about Islam-bashers or Pakistan-bashers here. Some of my fellow Indians may be unimpressed, as I initially was,(London, that great city, beloved of all Bengalis,how dare anyone attack London?Delhi?now there`s another matter) but no one can miss this generosity of spirit.
I never asked the writer how exactly, but I hope she will feel free to tell your own story if I get it wrong...
What I think they were told, that is the families, was that there was a Pakistani raid on a couple of border towns and that`s where it happened. I do remember clearly that they wre taken on the Indian side of the border and never seen again...and to think this was a war India won. Is that right, Dr Waraich?
I also wish to remind people that every time the Missing Defence Personnel`s Families Association tries to contact Pakistanis, they are told there are Pakistani POWs in Indian jails. However, I have seen for myself that every time she or others offer to take up this matter and ask for a list of names, there is a deafening silence from the other side.
The sad thing is that people like Omar can`t even see the human side. The writer is a woman, who when I called to tell her about the London bombings and that the ABC was saying ``Islamic terrorists`` were involved, said, ``Muslims are the most marginalised and persecuted people in the world now, maybe some of them can`t see an option``. So we are not talking about Islam-bashers or Pakistan-bashers here. Some of my fellow Indians may be unimpressed, as I initially was,(London, that great city, beloved of all Bengalis,how dare anyone attack London?Delhi?now there`s another matter) but no one can miss this generosity of spirit.
#63 Posted by harish_hyd on August 29, 2005 10:40:59 pm
Pakistan`s claim that there are no PoWs in Paki prisons would have been more credible if it hadn`t released the two PoWs captured during the Kargil war after repeated denials. Once it released the two, it is only natural to expect that the Pakis had been lying all along and there could be more PoWs languishing in Paki jails.
Similarly, it would be hypocrtical to expect Pakistan to admit that there are more PoWs unless we release any and all PoWs that may be incarcerated in Indian prisons. For this, Pakistan needs to provide a list of missing soldiers or soldiers that haven`t been accounted for.
Similarly, it would be hypocrtical to expect Pakistan to admit that there are more PoWs unless we release any and all PoWs that may be incarcerated in Indian prisons. For this, Pakistan needs to provide a list of missing soldiers or soldiers that haven`t been accounted for.
#62 Posted by Waraich on August 29, 2005 6:59:03 pm
That is why We had asked the Pakistanis for list of their soldiers- if any were missing. Riaz Khokhar had said in 1996 to Zee TV that around 250 of their own soldiers were missing but he said they had told the families to presume that they had been killed in war- ``Shaheed ho gaye hain.`` Does that mean the Pakistani govt has closed the case and is not following it up? I dont know.
Secondly it`s not impossible that these people be released. 2 POWs from the Chinese war in 1962 were repatriated after 43 years by India recently- I`ll post the details if required. They had been in ranchi Mental hospital and in fact a colleague of mine had told me of one of them after he learnt that my father was on the list of POWs.
So if anyone is still alive , they can be returned. The problem is if these men`s names were changed to muslim ones on jail records which is likely as after maj Suri`s letter in 1975 , it became a sensitive issue and someone somewhere decided this had to be covered up; but if their names were changed, only these people would be able to tell us who they are. If someone could find out what happened- whether they were rehabilitated even within Pakistan( there are rumours of that even), it would be an interesting tale.
Secondly it`s not impossible that these people be released. 2 POWs from the Chinese war in 1962 were repatriated after 43 years by India recently- I`ll post the details if required. They had been in ranchi Mental hospital and in fact a colleague of mine had told me of one of them after he learnt that my father was on the list of POWs.
So if anyone is still alive , they can be returned. The problem is if these men`s names were changed to muslim ones on jail records which is likely as after maj Suri`s letter in 1975 , it became a sensitive issue and someone somewhere decided this had to be covered up; but if their names were changed, only these people would be able to tell us who they are. If someone could find out what happened- whether they were rehabilitated even within Pakistan( there are rumours of that even), it would be an interesting tale.
#60 Posted by dost_mittar on August 29, 2005 5:19:19 am
omar saheb:
I was not editing your post, merely saying that it suggested an assumption on your part rather than an affirmation. I am not asking for any figures. Are there any names, ranks, etc.? What Ms Waraich and others are pointing out to are concrete cases, names and ranks. They are asking Pakistan govt. for the whereabouts of those people.
This is not an India-good, Pakistan-bad game. It is quite possible (Please note, I am not making a statement, making an assumption!) that the circumstances of the capture of these 54 soldiers was different, for example they might have been involved in unannounced activities in Bangladesh before the actual war started and the Indian govt. did not submit their list to Pakistan at the time of the POW exchange.
I was not editing your post, merely saying that it suggested an assumption on your part rather than an affirmation. I am not asking for any figures. Are there any names, ranks, etc.? What Ms Waraich and others are pointing out to are concrete cases, names and ranks. They are asking Pakistan govt. for the whereabouts of those people.
This is not an India-good, Pakistan-bad game. It is quite possible (Please note, I am not making a statement, making an assumption!) that the circumstances of the capture of these 54 soldiers was different, for example they might have been involved in unannounced activities in Bangladesh before the actual war started and the Indian govt. did not submit their list to Pakistan at the time of the POW exchange.
#61 Posted by nb on August 29, 2005 3:29:19 pm
Re: # 60
Dost-mittar, please consider what you`re saying. Why make assumptions when the truth is before you?Both of those things did not happen. The captures were on the Indian side of Punjab just before hostilities broke out. Where was the possibillity of doing anything in Bangladesh?
The Indian government did put these names to the Pakistanis at the cessation of hostilities. I have seen copies of the list myself.
Dost-mittar, please consider what you`re saying. Why make assumptions when the truth is before you?Both of those things did not happen. The captures were on the Indian side of Punjab just before hostilities broke out. Where was the possibillity of doing anything in Bangladesh?
The Indian government did put these names to the Pakistanis at the cessation of hostilities. I have seen copies of the list myself.
#59 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 29, 2005 4:58:54 am
dost mittar sahib -- editorial kissi ki applause kay liye naheen post kiya tha -- only to set the record straight -- jiss ko `applause` karna ho ga woh karey ga -- i doubt it that editorial writers write what they do for any immediate/personal gratification or approval-- esp since they do not contain bylines
#58 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 29, 2005 4:52:31 am
hahaha -- dm sahib -- im afraid i do not agree with your editing of my post because in essence i was saying that some of the 610 pakistanis in india`s jails must have been soldiers, or must be ex-soldiers -- surely such symantical nitpicking does not behove someone like yourself --
also, i do not know the figures, which is why my post clearly was more of an educated guess -- for figures i am afraid you will have to ask india`s relevant ministry under whose jurisdiction lie its federal jails -- i am assuming that it would be the home ministry ?
also, i do not know the figures, which is why my post clearly was more of an educated guess -- for figures i am afraid you will have to ask india`s relevant ministry under whose jurisdiction lie its federal jails -- i am assuming that it would be the home ministry ?
#57 Posted by dost_mittar on August 29, 2005 4:30:09 am
Omar#56
I applaud your editorial.
``yes dost mittar sahib -- of course you are not that un-informed -- but i wish you would stop pretending to be that way, it doesnt really behove you -- of course out of the 610 pakistanis in indian jails some must be ex soldiers --``
I really am uninformed, and you did not help by saying that some Pakistani soldiers must be ex-soldiers, instead of saying that they are ex-soldiers. If there have been any reports giving names, etc. of soldiers, please tell us.
I applaud your editorial.
``yes dost mittar sahib -- of course you are not that un-informed -- but i wish you would stop pretending to be that way, it doesnt really behove you -- of course out of the 610 pakistanis in indian jails some must be ex soldiers --``
I really am uninformed, and you did not help by saying that some Pakistani soldiers must be ex-soldiers, instead of saying that they are ex-soldiers. If there have been any reports giving names, etc. of soldiers, please tell us.
#56 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 29, 2005 2:17:55 am
Dawn`s editorial on October 2, 2004 -- on Indian/Pak POWs -- (which I might add I wrote)
Forgotten POWs
In a letter in this newspaper, the daughter of an Indian army officer says that she has been trying to trace her father`s whereabouts ever since he went missing during the 1971 war between Pakistan and India. This comes after the surprise release by Pakistan in early August of two Indian soldiers taken as POWs during the Kargil conflict and of a Pakistani soldier by the Indian side. What is interesting to note is that until then both governments had strongly denied holding any POWs.
Mohammad Arif, one of the two Indian soldiers repatriated, returned home to find that his wife, thinking him to be dead (the Indian army had declared both men deserters), had married again. The father of the other POW died in his son`s absence while his wife, also believing him to be dead, went away to her parents` place. The letter in question claims that at least 54 Indian POWs are still languishing in jails in Pakistan since 1971, and there might be a possibility that some could be in prison on the Indian side too. Islamabad`s official position is that it holds no Indian POWs, a refrain echoed by New Delhi. However, the recent swap in August indicates that such official positions do not tell the whole story.
It could be that in the case of a conflict as old as 1971, and with a new atmosphere of cordiality and reconciliation prevailing between the two countries, both may not want to touch a sensitive issue by publicly admitting the presence of POWs. But it is precisely for that reason that they should be willing to broach the subject without the risk of any misunderstanding. The case is indeed strong for the release of any POW who may still be in captivity on either side. Doing so will help provide some kind of closure and solace for their families, as in the case of the daughter who wrote the letter.
Forgotten POWs
In a letter in this newspaper, the daughter of an Indian army officer says that she has been trying to trace her father`s whereabouts ever since he went missing during the 1971 war between Pakistan and India. This comes after the surprise release by Pakistan in early August of two Indian soldiers taken as POWs during the Kargil conflict and of a Pakistani soldier by the Indian side. What is interesting to note is that until then both governments had strongly denied holding any POWs.
Mohammad Arif, one of the two Indian soldiers repatriated, returned home to find that his wife, thinking him to be dead (the Indian army had declared both men deserters), had married again. The father of the other POW died in his son`s absence while his wife, also believing him to be dead, went away to her parents` place. The letter in question claims that at least 54 Indian POWs are still languishing in jails in Pakistan since 1971, and there might be a possibility that some could be in prison on the Indian side too. Islamabad`s official position is that it holds no Indian POWs, a refrain echoed by New Delhi. However, the recent swap in August indicates that such official positions do not tell the whole story.
It could be that in the case of a conflict as old as 1971, and with a new atmosphere of cordiality and reconciliation prevailing between the two countries, both may not want to touch a sensitive issue by publicly admitting the presence of POWs. But it is precisely for that reason that they should be willing to broach the subject without the risk of any misunderstanding. The case is indeed strong for the release of any POW who may still be in captivity on either side. Doing so will help provide some kind of closure and solace for their families, as in the case of the daughter who wrote the letter.
#55 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 29, 2005 1:56:10 am
personally i think it is possible that the indian soldiers might be in pakistani jails, just like i think it is possible that some leftover pakistani POWs mights be in indian jails
#54 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 29, 2005 1:50:32 am
#6 by kaalchakra on August 27, 2005 4:06am PT
Are there any Pakistani soldiers locked up for two decades in Indian jails. If there are, then India should first release them, and then ask for Sarabjit Singh`s release.
If there are none, then omar quraishi`s # 4 and mohammed majed`s # 3 are in extremely bad taste.
err -- mr kalchakra -- i quoted the GoP`s own figures -- nothing in bad taste about that
nb -- stop being so naive -- i dont think ms warraich came to chowk to get answers here -- unless officials of the pakistani and indian interior ministries happen to be chowkies as well -- she should probably lobby the indian govt at her end -- and by the looks of it, there should be some headway on this issue -- otherwise it wouldnt have been included in the secretary-level talks currently underway in new delhi -- that is, the interior secys of both countries are meeting --
yes dost mittar sahib -- of course you are not that un-informed -- but i wish you would stop pretending to be that way, it doesnt really behove you -- of course out of the 610 pakistanis in indian jails some must be ex soldiers --
also ms simi waraich -- no one is playing a blame game, at least not i -- i am trying to place things in persepctive -- i should add, in this context, that i was the one who wrote my newspaper`s editorial on this issue, some months back -- i doubt it very much that i would have done that if i were so interested in playing a blame game --
Are there any Pakistani soldiers locked up for two decades in Indian jails. If there are, then India should first release them, and then ask for Sarabjit Singh`s release.
If there are none, then omar quraishi`s # 4 and mohammed majed`s # 3 are in extremely bad taste.
err -- mr kalchakra -- i quoted the GoP`s own figures -- nothing in bad taste about that
nb -- stop being so naive -- i dont think ms warraich came to chowk to get answers here -- unless officials of the pakistani and indian interior ministries happen to be chowkies as well -- she should probably lobby the indian govt at her end -- and by the looks of it, there should be some headway on this issue -- otherwise it wouldnt have been included in the secretary-level talks currently underway in new delhi -- that is, the interior secys of both countries are meeting --
yes dost mittar sahib -- of course you are not that un-informed -- but i wish you would stop pretending to be that way, it doesnt really behove you -- of course out of the 610 pakistanis in indian jails some must be ex soldiers --
also ms simi waraich -- no one is playing a blame game, at least not i -- i am trying to place things in persepctive -- i should add, in this context, that i was the one who wrote my newspaper`s editorial on this issue, some months back -- i doubt it very much that i would have done that if i were so interested in playing a blame game --
#53 Posted by hindvi on August 28, 2005 9:54:18 pm
Waraich
we have no control over the Pakistan goverment take this letter and newspaper cutting of that POW`s capture to HT, Indian Express, TOI on Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg or to Zee, Aaaj Tak, NDTV, Star News offices in Delhi, they will take it over from there by getting it reverified, they will then take the proof to the PRO at Army HQ in Sena Bhavan or South Block, where ever he sits, and interview him. They will confront the press officer in the Defence Ministry. this will be headline news on most indian channels, if they can raise a hue and cry over sarabjeet and a convicted rapist/ murderer like Dhanonjoy they will certainly kick up a storm over these immensely long suffering soldiers.
You and the relatives of the other prisoners will have to do this because it is not the father or husband of some Bureaucrat in the Indian govt. that is incarcerated, and if you have solid evidence, then it is your duty towards your husbands and fathers. the public will definitely rally behind you I cant imagine it other wise if they can rally for sarabjit and Dhanonjoy.
we have no control over the Pakistan goverment take this letter and newspaper cutting of that POW`s capture to HT, Indian Express, TOI on Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg or to Zee, Aaaj Tak, NDTV, Star News offices in Delhi, they will take it over from there by getting it reverified, they will then take the proof to the PRO at Army HQ in Sena Bhavan or South Block, where ever he sits, and interview him. They will confront the press officer in the Defence Ministry. this will be headline news on most indian channels, if they can raise a hue and cry over sarabjeet and a convicted rapist/ murderer like Dhanonjoy they will certainly kick up a storm over these immensely long suffering soldiers.
You and the relatives of the other prisoners will have to do this because it is not the father or husband of some Bureaucrat in the Indian govt. that is incarcerated, and if you have solid evidence, then it is your duty towards your husbands and fathers. the public will definitely rally behind you I cant imagine it other wise if they can rally for sarabjit and Dhanonjoy.
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