33 Years and Counting

hindvi:

This is an excerpt from farzana versey`s article, 1971: A Forgotten Story (http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001223&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1):

``Six months later there was another letter. “Dear Daddy,” it said, “Ashok touches thy feet to get your benediction. I am quite ok here. Please try to contact the Indian Army or Government of India about us. We are 20 officers here. Don’t worry about me. Pay my regards to everybody at home, specially to mummy, grandfather – Indian government can contact Pakistan government for our freedom.” The then defence secretary confirmed the handwriting as Ashok’s and changed the official statement from “killed in action” to “missing in action”.``

The letter has been verified by handwriting excerpts. I have a copy of the letter, I have a copy of Maj Ghosh`s photograph published by Time Magazine, Copies of newspaer articles saying Tombay had been captured alive and witnesses who heard the announcements of the capture.

As I said, these men are kept separate, specially after 1975- maybe even killed or converted - But ehy were there. Maj Ayaaz Ahmed Sipra told Mohan lal Bhaskar that he had befriended a Gill of the Indian Air force and a Capt Singh of the Indian army in the fort of Attock when Maj Sipra was there facing charges for attempting to overthrow Bhutto. He also told him there were others there.

hindvi#49:

You may have a point. I had somehow missed ``the jail``, the definite article does suggest your interpretation. In any case, I hope Ms. Waraich or someone else who knows more details will elaborate on this.

To most human beings the following statement:

``Last year in October, there was an article in the papers that Khushi Mohammad, a resident of Malerkotla, who had been released from Kot Lakhpat jail of Pakistan had informed media persons that some Indian Army Captains who had been caught in 1971 by the Pakistan army were being held in captivity in the jail,’’ Khushi Mohammad, released from jail in October, had also given the name of a BSF constable Surjit Singh who was in the same jail with him. ``
would imply the captains were also in the same jail.

but since you have doubts and Waraich, who wrote this is here, she can explain. i request he to do so. i think her previous post was addressed to you since she refers to post #43 which is by u not by me.

waraich
I dont wish to hurt you, if what you say is true it is a most dastardly deed commited by Pakistan, but you did mention ``Pakistan announced their capture. Maj Suri sent 2 letters back``

could you post some evidence of Pakistan`s announcement of their capture or could you present the two letters writen by major suri to a major print or television media org. in India, they will certainly fund the forensic costs of examination if the indian government doesnot.

Also if possible download those letters on chowk.

regards

hindvi:

Contrary to what you think I did read the statement carefully. I do not blame you for assuming that he implied that the captain was in the same prison. Mr Khushi Mohammad specifically mentions about the BSF jawan being his prison mate but there is no similar explicit statement re. the Captain. What was his source about the captain is not stated in the excerpt. (Maybe you know more about this casefrom other sources).

Re. Suri, why do you doubt the Major`s father? Why would anyone else send a letter caliming to be his son?

Ms. Waraich#36:
Hindvi is an Indian.

``He remembered the BSF jawan`s name because he claims to have been in the same jail. He seems to be making no such claim about the captain, at least in this report. ``

read the extract you have posted carefully

``Last year in October, there was an article in the papers that Khushi Mohammad, a resident of Malerkotla, who had been released from Kot Lakhpat jail of Pakistan had informed media persons that some Indian Army Captains who had been caught in 1971 by the Pakistan army were being held in captivity in the jail,’’ Khushi Mohammad, released from jail in October, had also given the name of a BSF constable Surjit Singh who was in the same jail with him. ``

to anybody who comprehends english, the captain was in the same jail as him, even otherwise how would he, a prisoner, know what is going on in another jail.

``And what about the letter from Major Suri to his father? Was it also fake? ``

This is the only presentable evidence we have. If this letter really exists it can be easily verified by forensic and hand writing experts, to whom it should be taken wether of the Indian government or private ones. It can be even taken to any of the TV channels or major broadsheets or magazines, recently Zee TV ran a report on secret corespondence between Churchil and jinnah, Hindustan times has a long running cock and bull project on the sitings of Subhash chandra bose.

Not just rightes media orgs like india Today, zee, or TOI but every single major media org in India would give anything for such a sensationol story and piece of evidence. Major Suri`s relatives should immediately take it to any of them. But I suspect they know this better than me.

Last year someone was collecting money to help find those unfortunate soldiers. What happened to that? Or was that a case of making money on someone’s misfortune the Indian-Pak style?

There is no doubt that it is a grave situation for a family. Military families as it is live on edge during all the ups and downs in Indo-Pak relations. When we have cases of MIA, and closure is nowhere to be seen, the family needs as much sympathy as we can provide.

Warrich may not have enough evidence to go with in this case but whatever gives him/her hope should be pursued.

It is not hard to locate people in Pakistani jails. Most of the jails would provide the information and if these people were shunted around in several jails as Warriach claims, then the leak or info can come from several sources.
The civilian prison system in Pakistan is as bad as perhaps in India. There may be several people still alive who can provide info but it would require a little more effort then writing on chowk, which is perhaps mostly read by ex-pat Pakistan and Indians.
OTOH, if writing this story on chowk repeatedly helps the family emotionally then it is okay too.
Good luck in your search.

Let`s stick to the issue at hand. We can discuss those other issues and my purported stand on them again when the occasion arises.

``The pakistani govt. calls these 20 people over, and transfers the prisoner at the last moment, just to get a sadistic joy? they can not out right have lied that there was no body there? you have been watching too many bollywood films.``

This is precisely the kind of clever ploy that someone would do if they wanted to convince someone of their lies [you would have been on more solid footing if you had argued why they did not kill those prisoners and put an end to the story?] . Someone was certainly lying; either the Indian prisoner or the 20 Indian visitors or the Pakistani government, it is up to you to decide whom you trust more.

``so he can remember the name of the BSF constable but forgets the army captains name, or is it that there is no difference between a BSF jawan and a army captain?``

He remembered the BSF jawan`s name because he claims to have been in the same jail. He seems to be making no such claim about the captain, at least in this report.

And what about the letter from Major Suri to his father? Was it also fake?

Re: # 43
I understand that you are sceptical. there was a programme on Ndtv today and a Mr Bhandara- a Pakistan MP faced some of the families. he seemed like a sincere man and honestly didnt believe there could have been any soldiers kept back. he kept saying Musharraf has given an assurance that he would not keep soldiers.

But face facts now- Pakistan announced their capture. Maj Suri sent 2 letters back. Various men have mentioned seeing them but after Maj Suri`s letters noone met them directly- saw them or heard of them. They mention that they are kept separately. Asma Jehangir said when she met the families that most likely they would be kept separate- in the fort of Attock perhaps. Others say they are moved every few months.

Now Even if they are no longer there- Where did they go? Either they died in prison in Pakistan as they didnt return or are still languishing there. Their names were announced as having been captured alive so POWs they were. That is indisputable.

As per me it is ridiculous to ask us- the relatives to provide proof- the Pakistani govt announced their capture- it is the Indian govt`s fault it is so slack- it should insist these men are there and should be returned as a matter of priority or it should be laid out clearly where they went. If they died - How and when and return their remains. India too may have soldiers.of Pakistan. If so give us their names and details of capture.

It is not, as I said an India does not have but Pakistan has POWs issue. A colleague of mine said there was a chinese fellow in Ranchi Mental hospital who some believed may have been a POW. India is not sacrosanct. Ultimately people are the same everywhere. look at the US and the way they have treated POWs. We are all human. As Pakistanis you are in a better position to find out if there is anyone in the prisons there. If you can or know of someone who can help, it would be great.

``Last year in October, there was an article in the papers that Khushi Mohammad, a resident of Malerkotla, who had been released from Kot Lakhpat jail of Pakistan had informed media persons that some Indian Army Captains who had been caught in 1971 by the Pakistan army were being held in captivity in the jail,’’ Khushi Mohammad, released from jail in October, had also given the name of a BSF constable Surjit Singh who was in the same jail with him. ``

so he can remember the name of the BSF constable but forgets the army captains name, or is it that there is no difference between a BSF jawan and a army captain?

``Dr Suri’s son Major Ashok Suri wrote a letter stating that he was in a Karachi prison in 1975 along with 20 other officers and begging him to ask the Indian government to intervene and have them released.

In 1983, he along with Mr Gill (B/O Wg Cdr H S Gill) and others went to Pakistan at the invitation of the Pakistani government. Their hopes had soared briefly as Narasimha Rao told them, “ Go get our men back.” It was not to be. They reached Multan jail, were shown some Indians but no army personnel, but fishermen and their likes; one of the Indian prisoners murmured to the dejected visitors pointedly, ” Those who you have come for have already been removed from here. You wont find them here!````

The pakistani govt. calls these 20 people over, and transfers the prisoner at the last moment, just to get a sadistic joy? they can not out right have lied that there was no body there? you have been watching too many bollywood films.

But with your record of lies and obfuscatcation from recovery of muslims in the ``areas`` that constituted India, to political pampering of muslims being responsible for the rise of the BJP (which is a secular political party in your opinion) to your disdain of leftist historians and dissapointment at school history not talking about temple breaking while backslapping with Netizen about the sudden emergence of history regarding the wiping out of budhism by hinduism in preislamic India, you have a track record of subtly pushing soft hindutva thats hard to beat.

hindvi:

I never thought obfuscation was my strong point.

In any case, Indian govt. has been putting pressure on Pakistan. My knowledge on this issue is based mostly on what I have read on chowk. And I have read many pieces of evidence that have been presented on this issue. Farzana Versey, no stooge of Indian government wrote an article on this issue. Even on this board, several pieces of evidence have been mentioned. Here are excerpts from the current article:


Last year in October, there was an article in the papers that Khushi Mohammad, a resident of Malerkotla, who had been released from Kot Lakhpat jail of Pakistan had informed media persons that some Indian Army Captains who had been caught in 1971 by the Pakistan army were being held in captivity in the jail,’’ Khushi Mohammad, released from jail in October, had also given the name of a BSF constable Surjit Singh who was in the same jail with him.

Dr Suri’s son Major Ashok Suri wrote a letter stating that he was in a Karachi prison in 1975 along with 20 other officers and begging him to ask the Indian government to intervene and have them released.

In 1983, he along with Mr Gill (B/O Wg Cdr H S Gill) and others went to Pakistan at the invitation of the Pakistani government. Their hopes had soared briefly as Narasimha Rao told them, “ Go get our men back.” It was not to be. They reached Multan jail, were shown some Indians but no army personnel, but fishermen and their likes; one of the Indian prisoners murmured to the dejected visitors pointedly, ” Those who you have come for have already been removed from here. You wont find them here!``

Of course, it is your prerogative to call these people liars and Pakistani government the upholder of truth and integrity.

As usual dost mittar will try to obfuscate the issue, this is not the Gita, the quran, the after life or punar janam in which your trust of a certain party has to guide you, you could use your brains if you have any.

The indian army itself is not putting any pressure on this issue, and the army is not one to abandon its soldiers. In Kargil they brought back the corpses of their slain colleagues under the most withering fire, only when it was suicidal did they delay the process. One has to not only imagine almost all Pakistanis who came in any kind of contact with these POWs to be beasts, but also all Indian Army officers to be extraordinarily expedient and callous to not pressurise the goverment for the return of their comrades.

kaalchakra#36:

Whatever evidence is there, which has to be circumstantial under the circumstances, has been presented in various chowk articles; the rest is a question of who does one trust more, the Indians or the Pakistanis.

we can only talk in terms of probabilities and the probability that successive pakistani govts have managed to keep 54 prisoners in its prison system for over 30 years without letting the outside world know while they returned hundreds of other POWs is low. Miracles can always happen but then I am not among those who believe angels whisper in the ears of certain individuals or avtars descend on this world periodically or that people can achieve nirvana.

The other possibility that individuals can be carried away by strong emotions, hope and the power of self suggestion I believe is stronger.

Kaalchakra :``These things should be easy to settle.``

if they were easy to settle they would have been settle by now, these things are by their very nature impossible to conclusively settle, especially when a state is involved.