The Dance of the Damned

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dullahbhatti #166: ``....baaadhshao, ajjay te saal vi nai hoyea Toronto wekhay nu,``

Chal utth chalyee, daes turr chalyae

sohniyaan watnaan noon, chadd kay aaunda naan
dard judieyaan daa, gall naal launda naan
aiyhou dil chandaa, aithay kadeen vee naan aanda
lay kay aiyeyaan majboorian

Chal utth chalyee, daes turr chalyae

mehnat keetee aye, maal kamayaa aye
sub kujj milyaa aye, par watan parayaa aye
dil tay kee beetee, ajj sachi gal keetee
mainoon maar gaeyaan dooriyan

Chat utth chalyee, daes turr chalyee

drlokraj,
i dont understand how you can say that ``jats have reacted to being shudras in brahmical order by opressing the dalits`` tha jatts did not make the caste system.
in punjab dalits have worked for centuries for jats in tilling the land. they were not exploited, they were given one-tenth share of all crops harvested. they were also given meals, three times a day. they also had a right to take any thing they wanted from the jats field. infact a jat was really generous, anyone in the village could take vegetables etc from his fields.

re:#151 by kaalchakra
Sorry, i did not mean to be rude.
Can`t waste too much time here. Here is my 2 cents.
There are a lot of things we do not know about history. Recently a human skelton was discovered near Narmada basin in India (http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=433808). Historians tell us that Homo sapiens did not come before 20000 years ago. Bunkum. I read a very interesting book (called ``The forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo) that gives a lot of evidence of human skulls dating back to more than 100,000 years ago. Archeologists apparently know this but do not know what to make of these findings as they do not fit into the current accepted thinking. Science evolves slowly. Remember how long it took for the world to accept that earth was not the center of Universe?
Some remains were found near Tamil Nadu coast (what was previously a thriving coastal city of Poompuhar). The site was excavated by British marine biologist Graham Hancock (http://www.ufoarea.com/aas_submerged_city.html) and suggests that the city predates Sumerian civilization. These and other similar findings will change the history as it is taught.

I find these things fascinating. It is not inconceivable that an ancient civilization like India`s had extensive contacts thr` sea and land routes with people all over the world. I read somewhere that the word Phoenician was derived from Pani (the modern day Baniya), the trading class of ancient India. Recently, some coins from Indus were found in Egyptian sites. Many historians have found similarities between ancient South American cultures and ancient India. I would not dismiss anything as silly without proof.
Sridhar

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re: rsridhar # 167

If I haven`t heard of an author then there is a good chance that the author has something worthwhile to say. :)

Really, it wasn`t anything personal. The author`s claims are so bold (which does not make them wrong) that the reader would benefit from knowing that the claims could well be wrong.

Hi DM#, Romair#, bhatti#

Is the name of the language is pathvaari or anglicised version potohari. Pathvaari I feel is the punjabi dialect which is closest to Sanskrit. For example

Kudroun achaney paye ho.
Kudar gachaney paye ho.

And one thing more In the marraiges, ths songs muslim or hindu sing in pathvaari are same or not ?

For example

Kudron aayina beriya, Saudagar Ranjha kudron aye mallah Horaan ja

Or Luti heer ve dilaan di


DM#

The cost system stopped the spread of Islam drastically in India. Reason being there were/are more disincentives to leave your caste/group/relegion and convert. Conversion use to be worse than death.

re:#151 by kaalchakra
The problem with people like u is you jump to conclusions. Gidwani is the same guy who wrote ``The sword of Tipu Sultan`` that was later serialized by Sanjay Khan. I bought ``The return of the Aryans`` in The Barnes and Nobles many years ago when i lived in New York. If u have not heard of him does not mean he is BS. May be u are BS. Jeez!
sridhar

wah ji wah...khotee Thaane ki ho ayee wapis wagg cha nai ralldi....baaadhshao, ajjay te saal vi nai hoyea Toronto wekhay nu, hunnay ainneyaN chauRhaN:-)

Lokraj ji, Things are changing and changing fast. Only question is will this change keep happening at a sustained level..if does, in 2 more generations the social landscape of Punjab will be unecognizable....NRI influence in Punjab is tremendous...I think this is the biggest change to Punjab ever happened....true most of us in foreign lands still carry our social baggage around but it is to a much diminished level....next generations in spite of dancing on Jazzy Bains`s Jatt patt do dhooRhaN type songs have very little sense of attachment to the caste system.....lakhs of these NRI`s and their kids visit punjab and transfer their experiences, behaviour, dreams and what not along with their money...this is accelerating the change in Punjab much faster than some other parts of the country. coupled with tv/internet and greater sense of personal freedoms will shake the entire social structure in coming decades. just sit and watch. this whole dhoom dhaRaka of hum yeh hain hum woh hain is on its last legs.

rsridhar#146:

Thanks for the link. I`ll read it when I have more spare time.

How do these other thories explain the exlusion of dalits from the varna system? And how do they explain the statistical correlation between caste and colour, especially in the south. Even in Punjab where such correlation is quite weak, there was a saying, ``do not trust a dark brahmin or a fair choorha``. The legitimacy of both was considered suspect.

Re: # 158 dil khush kar ditta dulla bhai
I agree with you totally.
Clinging to castes in case of lower castes is for survival in the hostile world by having their ``own``people around them....its their social defence or coping at the social level...but for the upper castes,it is denial of the todays` realities.
Jatts have reacted to being shudras in brahminical order by oppressing the dalits,but have ultimately got entangled in the system.The price of this pseudo superiority is being paid by the poor jatts who are by no means at the ``upper`` level because of the small land holdings,but because of being jatt,can not do the jobs openly which the so called lower castes are supposed to do(daily waged labour....its a different matter that they are doing the same jobs in gulf countries and europe and America.canada).They have taken huge loans,some times for totally unplanned activities or articles which they actually dont need.When they cant pay the loans back,they commit suicide.They are also being exploited by the banks,tractor companies and the local shahukaars and aaRhtiyaas.Do you know how many jatts committed suicide,particularly in the malwa belt in the past few years??I had written a detailed article about this in Punjabi tribune few years ago. Are these jatts worse than the land less labourers,bhayyas,seeris...no their ``jatt aakaR`` is responsible for that.Though,with education and with lot of people going abroad,these notions have started to change. For example,from my village,there is a person,belonging to jatt caste,selling shoes in England....whenever he goes to the village,he spends maximum time with the Ramdassias ,goes to their gurudwara,donates for the langar..and declares without any inhibition that he considers himself to be chamar as he does the same job as they do and he respects his job because it sustains him and his family.

Re: # 158 dil khush kar ditta dulla bhai
I agree with you totally.
Clinging to castes in case of lower castes is for survival in the hostile world by having their ``own``people around them....its their social defence or coping at the social level...but for the upper castes,it is denial of the todays` realities.
Jatts have reacted to being shudras in brahminical order by oppressing the dalits,but have ultimately got entangled in the system.The price of this pseudo superiority is being paid by the poor jatts who are by no means at the ``upper`` level because of the small land holdings,but because of being jatt,can not do the jobs openly which the so called lower castes are supposed to do(daily waged labour....its a different matter that they are doing the same jobs in gulf countries and europe and America.canada).They have taken huge loans,some times for totally unplanned activities or articles which they actually dont need.When they cant pay the loans back,they commit suicide.They are also being exploited by the banks,tractor companies and the local shahukaars and aaRhtiyaas.Do you know how many jatts committed suicide,particularly in the malwa belt in the past few years??I had written a detailed article about this in Punjabi tribune few years ago. Are these jatts worse than the land less labourers,bhayyas,seeris...no their ``jatt aakaR`` is responsible for that.Though,with education and with lot of people going abroad,these notions have started to change. For example,from my village,there is a person,belonging to jatt caste,selling shoes in England....whenever he goes to the village,he spends maximum time with the Ramdassias ,goes to their gurudwara,donates for the langar..and declares without any inhibition that he considers himself to be chamar as he does the same job as they do and he respects his job because it sustains him and his family.

dost-mittar #: ``Romair/dullabhatti:
For a small consideration, I am willing to be an interpreter between your potohari and majhavi.:-)``

I don`t think the translation is required between Potohari Punjabi and Majhavi(?). I can understand Bhatti Saab`s Punjabi quite clearly. The translation is needed between his Brampton English and my Toronto English.............

Re: # 159

`` In fact, the rising oil prices [ a direct fall out of the war] has potential to undermine the entire world economy.``

i think it is because of nigeria issue too. I heard on NPR somethings not well there.

also whats with bush giving billion dollars to oil companies for future explorations. i think he should have not done that especailly for those who are making billions in profit.

Re: # 155
//...i am not blaming her just pointing that it is futile...//

Well - it sounded like you are blaming her [ you said - she is ``hogging the limelight``] ...... but never mind :)

But her anti-war protests ain`t futile. Somebody has to start it. Somebody has to take a stand. There ain`t no ``noble cause`` in this war. This war has ended up making the terrorists and their sponsors stronger and stronger. It has ended up making US weaker...... In fact, the rising oil prices [ a direct fall out of the war] has potential to undermine the entire world economy.