The Dance of the Damned

Re: # 107

``BTW Egypt, Palestine, Syria, aren’t arab,``


are you sure? so what are they? i am sure they are arabs. would be interested to know otherwise.
Egypt is known as the largest arab country.

Dilliwala, but village names were named after the tribes that founded them or lived there. e.g. in Chak Gill, may be not everyone a Gill but majority of them were. But you are partially correct now a days everyone from Chak Gill calls his last name as Gill regardless of their caste.

Also, some other village may be named as Kot Jandoke, but all the jatt bridari living there may be Gill. That is true about most villages in central Punjab. e.g. Badal family belongs originally to a village in Amritsar named Moosa(I think so)....all jatt bridari in the village is Dhillon. So is Badal`s family but when they moved to Badal village in faridkot, they started calling themselves Badal(which is name of palce not a last name).
but you are right, it is good way to camaflauge ones `goat`. (no urstruly, it is not that one:-) )

Interesting, I also learned other day, that Gills and Cheemas are really not their last names for Pakistanis. They just adopted the lastname of the cillage where they lived.
It seems that Mohammad Gill was not a Sikh before but he probably lived in some Punjab Village whose name was Chak Gill or something and his ancesstors adopted it and it stayed.
That would also explain christians with other Punjabi names as Gill, Deol, sidhu, Kaura ..........etc.

Re: # 100
romair
You seem to be creating more theories in a day than einstein did in his life time.
Muhajir names tend to be biblical as well as Arabic i..e younis (jonah), zakaria (zaccaria),musa (moses), yousef ( joseph), dahoud (david), ibrahim ( Abraham), etc

BTW Egypt, Palestine, Syria, aren’t arab, just because they speak Arabic doesn’t make them arab.

Re: # 100:

Romair, I just have to clarify this...

[Interestingly, all the Indian Muslim names I keep hearing (much like the Muhajir names) seem to be fully Arabicized. Farzana Varsey...]

My first name is not Arabicised; it has Persian origins. It has two absolutely wonderful meanings -- wisdom and luminescence/fire :)

The last name is Gujarati...I believe it refers to the trading class... and it is used by Hindus too although perhaps spelled differently. My spelling, true to the spirit of Thackeray (he could make an Englishman as his excuse), is French!

dost-mittarji (#98):

The desanskritisation of the upper castes you speak about is an urban phenomenon and restricted to superficials. Meat-eating has always been prevalent among certain groups, like the Kashmiri Pandits, Chettinad Brahmins, Rajputs, not to forget the Bengali bhadralok...it is only the slaughtering that is done by Muslims or OBCs (unless it is ritual sacrifice where the higher castes participate).

Harimau is a Brahmin body with a Dalit heart and a Muslim driver...and he cannot move around without the last....

Romair/Netizen:

Things have been changing fast in Pakistan in the Musharraff era. Sarees are in again as is classical music and dance. So are even Hindu sounding first names, especially among girls. So, you see names like Meera, Bina, Kiran, Rani, Sangeeta, etc. Very soon, you will find the upper classes in Karachi playing holi and in Lahore celebrating Lohri. The post 9/11 Musharraf is the best thing that happened to Indo-Pak relations.

Actually, Punjabi names in the earlier days were frequently free of religious connotations, e.g, Nathu, Phato, Billo, Kalu, Shera, Roshan, Iqbal, etc.

And Raja, btw, was also the name by which barbers were called. Although Nai was a low caste, he enjoyed a good deal of prestige because he acted both as a local surgeon as well as a match-maker between nearby villages.

Romair, I addressed your comment about brahmins working for dalit in an earlier post which you may have missed.

Romair #100

{{Interestingly, all the Indian Muslim names I keep hearing (much like the Muhajir names) seem to be fully Arabicized. Farzana Varsey. Jawahara Saidullah. Mohd Azharuddin. Haroon Siddiqui. Fareed Zakaria. Etc. Pervez Musharraf (though Pervez is Persian, not Arabic). }}

That is a very selective sample of Indian Muslim names. Is ‘Versey’ really Arabized?

In addition to ‘Khan’, it’s not difficult to find Mirza and Baig (Central Asian), Jafri, Razvi (or Rizvi) and Naqvi (Persian, I believe). Also ‘last names’ like Chowdhury, Antule, Marikar. Hardly Arabized.

Then there are names of Indian Muslims that incorporate diminutives from the local vernacular. Kunjhalikutty is a prime example (find the imported core in that one!).

Just off the top of my (kafir) head, and barely scratching the surface, I’ll wager.

#100 is a classic..chowk is full of this construct

start with an incorrect observation and then muse why its so..then conclude with a favorite conclusion.

but for hitting post #100 he gets a date with kaurasuch

Romair: I am not sure about your observation about use of pre-islamic last names in Pakistan amongst Punjabis....I find majority does use Arabicized last names although most of them are aware of their real last names....although I see the trend towards using pre-islamic last names on rise. if not used atleast people being more willing to acknowledge it.

My belief is if all Pakistanis had to use their real pre-islamic last names, that along will bring down the hatred between two countries significantly by bringing in realization that we have the same roots. People do tend to have softer heart for people with simialr last names..even in North America I have noticed two goras with same last names meeting for the first time will try to find a common root or background. It is ver very milder form of casteism but very human and natural.

Re: # 100

``This begs the question: how did those Muslims in the Indian geographical areas, end up with fully Arabic names? Were the all children of Arab migrants? I doubt it. Then were the all children of Dalits? Or is there some other reason…….. ``

It must have been to totally differentiate themselves from their hindu clansman, But in india too there are muslims with hindu surnames like Chowdhary, munshi, deshmukh, katkar... but these define mostly professions, in some cases castes.

Dost-mittar #98: “In the old days, no husband would like to have been reminded of what your wife does to you.”

Yes, you are quite correct. This is what happens when women start getting educated. They forget their place, in society. In my whole life, I never saw my father or grandfather step into the kitchen. What was interesting is that my mother and grandmother would, themselves, not let them enter. I enter the kitchen three times a day……My mother would go crazy, every time she visited, and saw me cook……..

“When upper caste hindus converted to Islam, they took their caste identity with them; the lower caste converts, instead of accepting the castelessness of Islam, adopted fancy cenrral asian names to give them a superior ``caste`` identity.”

This is my theory, as well.

There are some interesting things about Muslim names in South Asia. I don’t have exact statistics, so I could be wrong. But just some observations……..The only group of people in Pakistan that one sees, whose majority population has completely Arabacized first and last names are Muhajirs. Altaf Hussain, Hassan Ahmad, Bilal Siddiqui etc. Amongst Punjabis, Baluchis, Sindhis etc. in Pakistan, the trend seems to be an Arab first name, with their traditional Hindu (by this I mean pre-Muslim) biradari last name. Like my name. Mohammad Gill, Amir Randhawa, Fatima Warriach, Ayesha Talpur etc. seems to be the norm.

Or they have Persian or Afghan etc. imported first and last name. Pervez Kayani, Shehla Khan etc. But one doesn’t see a a majority of fully Arabicized imported first and last name, in the geographical areas of Pakistan (except amongst Muhajirs).

Interestingly, all the Indian Muslim names I keep hearing (much like the Muhajir names) seem to be fully Arabicized. Farzana Varsey. Jawahara Saidullah. Mohd Azharuddin. Haroon Siddiqui. Fareed Zakaria. Etc. Pervez Musharraf (though Pervez is Persian, not Arabic). The only exception seems to be the last name, “Khan” – Shahrukh Khan, Zaheer Khan etc. Though Khan is not Hindu either. This is probably why so many Indians think that Pakistani Muslims have also Arabacized their names, and gotten rid of their Hindu last name. When, in fact, in Pakistan (other than Muhajirs), these names would probably be Farzana Varsey Randhawa. Jawahara Saidullah Gill. Raja Mohd. Azharuddin. Fareed Zakaria Talpur Pervez Musharraff Warriach.

There are groups from geographical Pakistan, who have fully Arabicized names, also, but my guess is, like you mentioned, they were the traditional Dalits and were given, “high” Muslim names, on conversion. Ahmad Qureshi was probably Ahmad Dalit or Ravi Dalit or something. So he took off the Dalit name, and switched to Qureshi, indicating that his family had ties to the Quresh tribe in Mecca, when in fact they never went beyond Jallundhar.

What is odd is that Indian Muslims have Arabicized last names, even though they live in a majority Hindu country. And Pakistani Muslims have their Hindu or traditional last names, even though they live in a majority Muslim country. This begs the question: how did those Muslims in the Indian geographical areas, end up with fully Arabic names? Were the all children of Arab migrants? I doubt it. Then were the all children of Dalits? Or is there some other reason……..

Re: # 97

``Even if the Raja is an axe-murderer, and the Jat is an angel, they will vote for the former. ``

The same is in india too. All the regional parties are caste/community based. When allocating tickets to fight elections, teh caste of the candidates is very vital. Why do you think Laloo and Mulayam keep on winning.

Dear Farzana:

The phenomenon you describe is much more important than the one I mentioned. The city indeed provides great refuge for anyone seeking anonymity.

The point I raised was merely academic. The term `sanskritisation` was invented by Prof. M.N. Srinivas to describe the phenomenon that he had observed among the upwardly mobile OBCs (the ones harimau calls `Masanmuthus`). The concept should now be discarded altogether. If anything, I now see more desanskritisation of the upper castes. No more tufts, sacred threads or tilaks, and meat-eating is definitely ``in``. My niece`s Iyer husband is a voracious meat eater and my nephews and nieces could teach even a dog how to clean the meat off a bone. Paradoxically, they are all generally hindu right-wingers. True disciples of Varsha Bhosle (has she been silenced by shiv sainiks?).

Romair:

``I actually married one level above, which my wife never ceases to reming me off.``

This wouldn`t have happened during your grandmother`s time. The custom in Punjab at that time was to marry the daughter one rung above in terms of caste/class, or to bring the daughter from one rung below [still within the same caste broadband]. It made perfect sense in those days. The girl was supposed to adopt to the lifestyle of the family she went into and upward adjustment was easier than downward adjustment. In the old days, no husband would like to have been reminded of what your wife does to you.

drlokraj:

``Then if all the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes are not even shudras,then who are they? Does that mean they are not Hindus?``

The only people who have answered your question are orientalists or Indian historians who agree with them, namely the aryan incursion. The Aryans divided the society into five groups, the Aryans themselves were divided into three upper castes, the so-called twice-born. The local dravidians became the shudras. The adivasis or the aboriginals were outside this system and became the ``achhoots`` or dalits now.

One has to remember that the term Hindu as a religious identity did not exist back then. Caste was the marker of the identity. Even until a century ago, Buddhists, Jains or Sikhs did not have a strong religious identity but they did have a caste identity. When Muslims came to India, people simply treated them as a kind of a separate caste. When upper caste hindus converted to Islam, they took their caste identity with them; the lower caste converts, instead of accepting the castelessness of Islam, adopted fancy cenrral asian names to give them a superior ``caste`` identity.

Netizen/dullabhatti #:`` don`t know how correct it is.
The only battle in which rajput confederacy was defeated by central asians was by Babur, that too with his cannons.``

You are probably correct. My remark, like many of my remarks on this site, was more in jest than anything else.......

There is a biradari system in Pakistan. One could consider it a loser, less defined form of caste system. Its basis was in land holdings. And is now moving towards wealth and power. So this makes it easier to move from one level to another. In fact, whole biradaris can move from one level to the next, or be forced to move down. In areas of Pakistan, where land holdings have been distributed, the positions of biradaris is in flux. While in areas where land holdings are still the fashion (southern Punjab, rural Sindh and Baluchistan), I assume it is still quite solid.

As Dbhatti has stated, the concept of biradari is quite vague also. Jatts seem to be an umbrella term, under which all kinds of biradaris fall. Similarly, Rajas are an umbrella term, also. They seem to appear from all over the place. There are Rajput Rajas and other Hindu converted Rajas. But then there are Persian Rajas, and Ghakkar Rajas and Kayani Rajas also. So biradari seems to be a bit of a free for all. This probably indicates its looseness in comparison to a solid caste system.......And people joining biradiris as and when they want.......

In the areas where our village is, Rajas were, traditionally, the medium size landholders, with some wealth. While Jats of various varieties were the farm labor. Rajas were in smaller numbers than Jats. Eventually due to education and urban upper mobility, the Jats ended up with wealth and power also. Since the outnumber the Rajas, now they run everything. Maybe in a generation or two, they will be the upper caste or upper biradari, while Rajas will move down. Currently, Pakistan`s Punjab, in politics, etc. is run by Jats. They are the up and coming upper class............

Interestingly, while my parents vote and support people on merit, when they are outside the biradiri system, they moment they go to vote within the biradari system, they always vote for their own biradari. This is how politics works in Pakistan. Even if the Raja is an axe-murderer, and the Jat is an angel, they will vote for the former. The campaign slogan being, ``innah noon asseen peerhiyan tae bithaya karday san`` (we used to make these guys sit on small stools; (while we sat on sofas and chairs))..... the traditionally rich vs. the nouve riche.........

Re: # 92
Dullya,
I object to this comment, perhaps your interaction was with ``Fokras``.
You need do Sangat with a ``Nitnemi``, who is sabit soora.

Please verify these Khalsas by observing them closely and then befriend. I know many inspiring people on East Coast who are truly Gurus Khalsa.

```We Dalits are like animals.``

Sure you are animals. Its just that 50% of the seats in professional engineering and medical colleges and 50% of the cushy government jobs are reserved for you. So you can basically score 50% in your exams and still have better chances of landing a given coveted college seat or a government job than an upper caste monster who gets 90% in the same exam.



``The moment we are born we are on our own.``

Sure you are on your own. Its just that 50% of the seats in professional engineering and medical colleges and 50% of the cushy government jobs are reserved for you. So you can basically score 50% in your exams and still have better chances of landing a given college seat or a government job than an upper caste monster who gets 90% in the same exam.


`` There is no support system. ``

Sure there is no support systam. Its just that 50% of the seats in professional engineering and medical colleges and 50% of the cushy government jobs are reserved for you. So you can basically score 50% in your exams and still have better chances of landing a given college seat or a government job than an upper caste monster who gets 90% in the same exam.


``We are constantly made aware that we are apart.``

But then , of course you are a class apart. After all , 50% of the seats in professional engineering and medical colleges and 50% of the cushy government jobs are reserved for you. So you can basically score 50% in your exams and still have better chances of landing a given college seat or a government job than an upper caste monster who gets 90% in the same exam.