The Dance of the Damned

In the days of IT Prowess, emerging Superpower, Nuclear Deal with the US, $145 Billion in FE, Sensex crossing 8000, we Indians tend to forget that that we are still a country with 70% of population living under $1 a day. The events like Gohana brutally remind us of our true status. I dont intend to discount the progress being made in the country in every sphere but Gohanas are still a reality with whom we have to live for a long long time to come.

#187, {````pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe`` - ha ha... How did you come up with THAT ? ``}

By trying to abide by Chowk guidelines. I would have placed the pimples elsewhere. Sometimes there is humor in caution. :)

Ajeya and Rsridhar,
You guys have interesting thoughts on this subject but by demonstrating hatred against the Muslims and trying to cleanse them, aren`t you doing what they already did to us?

I don`t think that Indians hates Muslims as much as they hate Pakistanis.
Why did India for decades play the tune of Muslim Palestine(Arafat etc), while Islamic Pakistan was trying to pull the Dhoti from the rear all the time, while its own Shalwar was slipping(Mohajirs and Sindis)??

I think Muslim world will see lots of changes otherwise whole world be on their case shortly, and it would not be like crusades, they will be forced to comply due to scale of economics not in their favor.

Even on Chowk if you notice, after 9-11, you dont see Islamic supremacy and other talks from some fanatic version of Pakistani Nationals, obviously what you are calling danda is really the pressure from rest of the world that is through technology or economics.

Footnote: I really think that Ajeya you should leave Chowk unless you have time to waste, like most others.

Back during my Arabic classes in Delhi, while teaching us the Arabic equivalents of various trades, I remember my teacher telling us that among the Muslims it was considered undesirable to have any dealing with the people the Arabic equivalent of whose profession had the middle letter written with an alif and a madda and she rattled off several such professions. I can only remember one: hajjam. Obviously, the Muslims in the subcontinent are wedded to the caste system, too.
Recently a community calling itself Brahmin(?) Christians in South India refused to pass control of their church to a low caste preacher. So, the Christians are not out of the caste system loop either.

Sorry I missed the party. I was too busy having fun with ISNA CHIKNA. I enjoyed reading the discussions concerning Muslim names in the various parts of India and Pakistan. As my family chose to retain and be proud of our own Hindu last name, let me offer my perspective on this subject:

Various parts of India were Islamized at different periods by different people. The Indus River, with some exceptions, was the barrier between India and eastern Persia for a long time. The conversions were as follows for the most part - Sindh in 8th century by Arabs, Punjab in 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries by Afghans and Central Asian Turks, and Bengal in 12th, 13th centuries by Muslim Sufi saints. There was very little conversion in what became UP and Bihar - these places had high percentage of very religious Hindus and many Brahmins. Central and Southern India saw the influx of Muslims from the north as a result of military campaigns and free-lance adventurers. One notable exception is the Arab contact with the people of Kerala, especially near Cochin.

Persians held on to many of their names and these were liberally used as first names among those who were under Persian influence, which was almost all of Indian Muslims. First names could be Persian (Pervez, Javaid, Aftab, Shaheen, Yasmeen) or Arabic (Ali, Hassan, Omar, Mohammad), and sometimes Turkish and Mongol (Timur, Genghis, Orkhan). Last names were trickier. Many converted Hindus, especially from the lower castes, simply didn`t have any last names to begin with and others just dropped them. Those, of higher castes, especially military ones, who could demand better treatment from their new Muslim ``brothers,`` were mapped into the Muslim castes of Shaikh, Sayyed, Mughal, Pathan, based on their corresponding previous status as Hindus. This happened quite often in what became known as UP (Oudh, Agra, Rohilkhand, and Doab - the area between Gunga and Jamuna rivers). Being the hearland of the Delhi Sultanate and then the Mughal Empire, the area around the capital was settled by many immigrants from the Muslim west. Thus you have Siddiqui, Farooqui, among Shaikhs; Syyed, Hashmi among Syyeds, and Khan, Ghaznavi, and Ghori among Pathans, and then Mirza, Baig, Timuri for Mughal descendants.

The key thing to remember is that hardly any Muslim family can claim to be pure this or pure that. There was almost universal intermarriage among Muslims and with the Hindus. Before that there was the usual rape and slaughter that accompanied most military victories. The Mongols loved large-eyed Persian women and thus left a lasting slanted vision in Iran that is obvious even today. Shias, who normally do not proselytize, have numerous Indian-looking adherents in the sub-continent.

Last names among the Muslims of India and Pakistan tend to be none (Shakeel Ahmed, Mohammed Aziz), Turkic (Khilji, Seljuk, Bey, Bukhari, Baig), Mughal (Mirza, Timuri), Afghan (Khan, Yusufzai, Ghaznavi, Ghori), or Persian (Isphahani, Tabrezi, Hamdani, Sistani), Arabic (Quraishi, Siddiqui, Faruqui) or Hindu (Gill, Bhatti, Butt, Choudhury, Patel, and yes Chauhan).

Ajeya #176 {``I hope Indians learn from the thinking behind Europe`s reluctance to include Turkey in the EU. :}

Ajeya,
Abey meN ne tere baap ka kya bigaRa he? :)

Farzana,
As usual - good article on a depressing topic. Exposing pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe is never easy nor prone to gratitude from the masses. But someone has to do it and you are good at it. :)

Re: # 183 Salim

``pimples on the cadavre of Miss Universe`` - ha ha... How did you come up with THAT ?

re:#176 by Ajeya
I hope u will change your mind. Even though we do not do much in Chowk in terms of changing ground realities, we can forcefully say what is in our minds without fear and hope it won`t be censored. Chowk has off late become censor-happy but it still is a good place.
I too like u have a lot of problems with our neighbouring country and the dirction it has taken. As someone pointed out, Pak is mending its ways though it has an infalted sense of importance in the world. The world will win this war against terrorism. Like all wars, this too will be painful but it will be won. If u are serious about quitting, good luck. Otherwise, u are always welcome back when u like. I tried to quit some months ago but felt it was out of anger, so came back.
Sridhar

Dear Ajeya

I understand your anguish but I don`t agree with your analysis. People like Farzana, DM just look at one aspect of story and try to genralise. But that is their choice or they rationalise their generalisation based on one partial fact.

People, including you and me sometimes forget that `All generalisations are false including this one.`

You must understand that Muslims are as much victim of Islam as non muslims are. What choice these Muslims have under a curse of Islam.

when did Dost-mittar,a Hindu, the Punjabi Khatri boy and a proud Indian convert to Islam?
that confirms Ajeya`s depth of analysis on the subject.

Re: # 179

islam is the fastest growing religion in the world .........

........ first it was neil armstrong, then mike tyson, then michael jackson and now dost-mittar!

......... takbeer !

Re:Ajeya#176

Please dont leave this forum. Also there is no need to feel so hopeless about the muslim situation. Believe me, not only India but the entire world is changing rapidly in its perception and attitudes towards muslims.

People have realized that muslims cannot be allowed to continue in their regular behavior of committing aggression and ethnically cleansing non-muslims, partitioning countries, supporting insane behavior in the name of jihad while all the time wallowing in autocratic societies with despotic regimes. In other words, muslims civilization across the board is a threat to modern civilization and progress.

The only way to change this is to fight back hard. No apologies, no political correctness, but direct, aggressive action. Force is the answer, not in terms of commiting genocide, but using a display of force or the threat of force to change muslim behavior. Just look at Pakistan. 5 years back, Pakistan was worshipping the Taliban and Jihad. Today, the same Pakistan is shaking hands with Israel and appointing a hindu as chief justice. It has only happened due to the threat of extreme force from the USA.

Similarly look at Afghanistan. The same people who were supporting the Taliban are now building a democracy, under fear of US force. The Kashmiri muslims have capitulated in the face of extreme Indian force to give up militancy and Kashmir will always remain with India. The Palestinians have capitulated to extreme force from the Israelis and are now negotiating a peace instead of detonating suicide bombs. Soon Iraqis will be under control as well. The Arab countries are finally starting to have elections, including allowing women to vote and run for office. So do not despair. Also most Indians support this aggressive tactic. I am sure you have seen that young Indians do not have any kind of apologist mindset as displayed by old timers like dost-mittar.

ajeya...
you must be a certified idiot to take such a long time to find the truth about muslims...atleast you have found nirvana...now you will be worshipped in a small temple in south india with khushboo and maulana dost-mittar will be your mujavar...khas kumm jahan paak...good bye...

This is my last post on Chowk. In fact , I am violating my promise to my wife by posting this message.

My experiences on this forum has confirmed everything I knew about Islam and Muslims all along. There is no hope. Nothing will change. Even a ``patriotic`` IM like Dost-Mitter feels that Kashmir should be a indepenedent solely because there is a Muslim majority and according to the wishes of the Muslim majority regardless of what Hindus want. I don`t think Muslims in general will ever change. The struggle to have IMs conform to the egalitarian norms of civilized society will continue in India, and this struggle might be just as eternal as the struggle between good and evil.

Muslims (like Dost-Mitter) like to maintain that their influence in India is insignificant. I cite the following article to refute that:
[
Bangladeshi bomber has Indian voter ID

Pramod Kumar Singh / New Delhi


HOUSE IN WEST BENGAL VILLAGE AND IS CPM ACTIVIST

---

A Bangladeshi accused of engineering the 400 serial explosions that rocked Dhaka and other towns across Bangladesh on August 17 has an Indian voter ID card, a house in West Bengal where his name is included in the electoral roll and is an activist of the Communist Party of India (Marxist). His family lives in Sonaberia town in Chittagong district of Bangladesh, a hotbed of jihadi activity.

Gayasuddin, one of the blast accused who was arrested by the police from Kadamtala in Satkhira region of Bangladesh on August 29, used to frequently cross the border into West Bengal where he has a house in Nityanand Khunti village of North 24 Parganas district.

According to intelligence operatives, he was last seen in Nityanand Khunti on August 26 but slipped out after villagers informed security agencies that he had come to seek refuge. The sources said that whenever Gayasuddin visited the village, he used to spend his nights at the village mosque.

After dropping out of Sonaberia High School, Gayasuddin studied theology in a madarsa in the same town where he later became a qari. His wife and children continue to live in Sonaberia.

Believed to be an active supporter of the CPI(M), he used his West Bengal contacts to get a ration card despite his Bangladeshi nationality. His brothers Alauddin, Naseeruddin and Abu Hussain, who live in Nityanand Khnuti village, are also believed to be activists of the CPI(M).

Gayasuddin was deeply involved with facilitating illegal immigration by Bangladeshis into West Bengal through Malda, Siliguri, Murshidabad and Dinajpur. West Bengal shares a 2,216 km-long porous border with Bangladesh.

Intelligence sources said that whenever Border Security Force (BSF) personnel enter a village along the border to identify illegal immigrants, aliens like Gayasuddin use loudspeakers installed in local mosques to raise an alarm by shouting ``daakaat, daakaat`` (dacoits, dacoits). With hordes of armed villagers streaming out of their homes, the BSF men are forced to beat a hasty retreat.

The unending influx of Bangladeshis into West Bengal has led to an alarming increase in criminal and subversive activities. Statistics show that there has been a 20 per cent increase in crimes ranging from rape to dacoity.

Illegal immigration from Bangladesh resulting in lakhs of aliens settling down in West Bengal, getting hold of ration cards and including their names in the electoral roll has had a political fallout. Analysis done by intelligence agencies shows that Bangladeshi immigrants can swing results in 52 Assembly constituencies and have a sizeable influence in 100 others in West Bengal.
]


And of course, their ability to swing votes in the rest of the country is well-known. As exhibited by all the corrupt politicians jumping on to the ``secular`` bandwagon.


Predictably, the bombings in Bangladesh were attributed to RAW agents in several Bangladeshi and Pakistani newspapers.

I hope India survives. I hope Indians learn from the thinking behind Europe`s reluctance to include Turkey in the EU.

But it might already be too late.

#173

Good one. koi na koi asar te ho riya:-)

sunne sunne raahwaN wich koi koi paiRh ay
dil hi udaas ay ji baaki sabh khair ay.

mithi jihi siyal di oh dhundli sawer si
sooraj de charhne ch haale baRhi dair si
pita pardes jadoN giya pehli ver si
maaN di akhaN wich hanjoo te haner si
ajjay teek nainaN wich maaRhi maaRhi gehar ay.

dil hi udaas........

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dullahbhatti #166: ``....baaadhshao, ajjay te saal vi nai hoyea Toronto wekhay nu,``

Chal utth chalyee, daes turr chalyae

sohniyaan watnaan noon, chadd kay aaunda naan
dard judieyaan daa, gall naal launda naan
aiyhou dil chandaa, aithay kadeen vee naan aanda
lay kay aiyeyaan majboorian

Chal utth chalyee, daes turr chalyae

mehnat keetee aye, maal kamayaa aye
sub kujj milyaa aye, par watan parayaa aye
dil tay kee beetee, ajj sachi gal keetee
mainoon maar gaeyaan dooriyan

Chat utth chalyee, daes turr chalyee

drlokraj,
i dont understand how you can say that ``jats have reacted to being shudras in brahmical order by opressing the dalits`` tha jatts did not make the caste system.
in punjab dalits have worked for centuries for jats in tilling the land. they were not exploited, they were given one-tenth share of all crops harvested. they were also given meals, three times a day. they also had a right to take any thing they wanted from the jats field. infact a jat was really generous, anyone in the village could take vegetables etc from his fields.

re:#151 by kaalchakra
Sorry, i did not mean to be rude.
Can`t waste too much time here. Here is my 2 cents.
There are a lot of things we do not know about history. Recently a human skelton was discovered near Narmada basin in India (http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=433808). Historians tell us that Homo sapiens did not come before 20000 years ago. Bunkum. I read a very interesting book (called ``The forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo) that gives a lot of evidence of human skulls dating back to more than 100,000 years ago. Archeologists apparently know this but do not know what to make of these findings as they do not fit into the current accepted thinking. Science evolves slowly. Remember how long it took for the world to accept that earth was not the center of Universe?
Some remains were found near Tamil Nadu coast (what was previously a thriving coastal city of Poompuhar). The site was excavated by British marine biologist Graham Hancock (http://www.ufoarea.com/aas_submerged_city.html) and suggests that the city predates Sumerian civilization. These and other similar findings will change the history as it is taught.

I find these things fascinating. It is not inconceivable that an ancient civilization like India`s had extensive contacts thr` sea and land routes with people all over the world. I read somewhere that the word Phoenician was derived from Pani (the modern day Baniya), the trading class of ancient India. Recently, some coins from Indus were found in Egyptian sites. Many historians have found similarities between ancient South American cultures and ancient India. I would not dismiss anything as silly without proof.
Sridhar

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re: rsridhar # 167

If I haven`t heard of an author then there is a good chance that the author has something worthwhile to say. :)

Really, it wasn`t anything personal. The author`s claims are so bold (which does not make them wrong) that the reader would benefit from knowing that the claims could well be wrong.

Hi DM#, Romair#, bhatti#

Is the name of the language is pathvaari or anglicised version potohari. Pathvaari I feel is the punjabi dialect which is closest to Sanskrit. For example

Kudroun achaney paye ho.
Kudar gachaney paye ho.

And one thing more In the marraiges, ths songs muslim or hindu sing in pathvaari are same or not ?

For example

Kudron aayina beriya, Saudagar Ranjha kudron aye mallah Horaan ja

Or Luti heer ve dilaan di


DM#

The cost system stopped the spread of Islam drastically in India. Reason being there were/are more disincentives to leave your caste/group/relegion and convert. Conversion use to be worse than death.

re:#151 by kaalchakra
The problem with people like u is you jump to conclusions. Gidwani is the same guy who wrote ``The sword of Tipu Sultan`` that was later serialized by Sanjay Khan. I bought ``The return of the Aryans`` in The Barnes and Nobles many years ago when i lived in New York. If u have not heard of him does not mean he is BS. May be u are BS. Jeez!
sridhar

wah ji wah...khotee Thaane ki ho ayee wapis wagg cha nai ralldi....baaadhshao, ajjay te saal vi nai hoyea Toronto wekhay nu, hunnay ainneyaN chauRhaN:-)

Lokraj ji, Things are changing and changing fast. Only question is will this change keep happening at a sustained level..if does, in 2 more generations the social landscape of Punjab will be unecognizable....NRI influence in Punjab is tremendous...I think this is the biggest change to Punjab ever happened....true most of us in foreign lands still carry our social baggage around but it is to a much diminished level....next generations in spite of dancing on Jazzy Bains`s Jatt patt do dhooRhaN type songs have very little sense of attachment to the caste system.....lakhs of these NRI`s and their kids visit punjab and transfer their experiences, behaviour, dreams and what not along with their money...this is accelerating the change in Punjab much faster than some other parts of the country. coupled with tv/internet and greater sense of personal freedoms will shake the entire social structure in coming decades. just sit and watch. this whole dhoom dhaRaka of hum yeh hain hum woh hain is on its last legs.

rsridhar#146:

Thanks for the link. I`ll read it when I have more spare time.

How do these other thories explain the exlusion of dalits from the varna system? And how do they explain the statistical correlation between caste and colour, especially in the south. Even in Punjab where such correlation is quite weak, there was a saying, ``do not trust a dark brahmin or a fair choorha``. The legitimacy of both was considered suspect.

Re: # 158 dil khush kar ditta dulla bhai
I agree with you totally.
Clinging to castes in case of lower castes is for survival in the hostile world by having their ``own``people around them....its their social defence or coping at the social level...but for the upper castes,it is denial of the todays` realities.
Jatts have reacted to being shudras in brahminical order by oppressing the dalits,but have ultimately got entangled in the system.The price of this pseudo superiority is being paid by the poor jatts who are by no means at the ``upper`` level because of the small land holdings,but because of being jatt,can not do the jobs openly which the so called lower castes are supposed to do(daily waged labour....its a different matter that they are doing the same jobs in gulf countries and europe and America.canada).They have taken huge loans,some times for totally unplanned activities or articles which they actually dont need.When they cant pay the loans back,they commit suicide.They are also being exploited by the banks,tractor companies and the local shahukaars and aaRhtiyaas.Do you know how many jatts committed suicide,particularly in the malwa belt in the past few years??I had written a detailed article about this in Punjabi tribune few years ago. Are these jatts worse than the land less labourers,bhayyas,seeris...no their ``jatt aakaR`` is responsible for that.Though,with education and with lot of people going abroad,these notions have started to change. For example,from my village,there is a person,belonging to jatt caste,selling shoes in England....whenever he goes to the village,he spends maximum time with the Ramdassias ,goes to their gurudwara,donates for the langar..and declares without any inhibition that he considers himself to be chamar as he does the same job as they do and he respects his job because it sustains him and his family.

Re: # 158 dil khush kar ditta dulla bhai
I agree with you totally.
Clinging to castes in case of lower castes is for survival in the hostile world by having their ``own``people around them....its their social defence or coping at the social level...but for the upper castes,it is denial of the todays` realities.
Jatts have reacted to being shudras in brahminical order by oppressing the dalits,but have ultimately got entangled in the system.The price of this pseudo superiority is being paid by the poor jatts who are by no means at the ``upper`` level because of the small land holdings,but because of being jatt,can not do the jobs openly which the so called lower castes are supposed to do(daily waged labour....its a different matter that they are doing the same jobs in gulf countries and europe and America.canada).They have taken huge loans,some times for totally unplanned activities or articles which they actually dont need.When they cant pay the loans back,they commit suicide.They are also being exploited by the banks,tractor companies and the local shahukaars and aaRhtiyaas.Do you know how many jatts committed suicide,particularly in the malwa belt in the past few years??I had written a detailed article about this in Punjabi tribune few years ago. Are these jatts worse than the land less labourers,bhayyas,seeris...no their ``jatt aakaR`` is responsible for that.Though,with education and with lot of people going abroad,these notions have started to change. For example,from my village,there is a person,belonging to jatt caste,selling shoes in England....whenever he goes to the village,he spends maximum time with the Ramdassias ,goes to their gurudwara,donates for the langar..and declares without any inhibition that he considers himself to be chamar as he does the same job as they do and he respects his job because it sustains him and his family.

dost-mittar #: ``Romair/dullabhatti:
For a small consideration, I am willing to be an interpreter between your potohari and majhavi.:-)``

I don`t think the translation is required between Potohari Punjabi and Majhavi(?). I can understand Bhatti Saab`s Punjabi quite clearly. The translation is needed between his Brampton English and my Toronto English.............

Re: # 155
//...i am not blaming her just pointing that it is futile...//

Well - it sounded like you are blaming her [ you said - she is ``hogging the limelight``] ...... but never mind :)

But her anti-war protests ain`t futile. Somebody has to start it. Somebody has to take a stand. There ain`t no ``noble cause`` in this war. This war has ended up making the terrorists and their sponsors stronger and stronger. It has ended up making US weaker...... In fact, the rising oil prices [ a direct fall out of the war] has potential to undermine the entire world economy.

Re: # 159

`` In fact, the rising oil prices [ a direct fall out of the war] has potential to undermine the entire world economy.``

i think it is because of nigeria issue too. I heard on NPR somethings not well there.

also whats with bush giving billion dollars to oil companies for future explorations. i think he should have not done that especailly for those who are making billions in profit.

Lokraj ji, sainis and kamboj are very proud of their heritage. Part of reason they are not in the main stream of the sikhs controlled by jatt sikhs is that they(sainis, rais, kamboj etc) consider jatts inferior. I know many of these people and they will oppose their daughters or sons marrying a Jatt sikh as much as a Jat sikh would marrying them. In my experience it is a two way street. I don`;t know what it is but something very wicked about casteism is that even people otherwise considered lower castes by others are proud of what they are. I guess that is only way you could survive discrimnation of life time by believing in something strongly and saying to yourself you are great.

I agree with you on total domination of Jat sikhs on the gurdwara resources and Sikh politics. The whole system is corrupt to the bone..Gurdwaras have become a big business. All smaadhs and kabar are turning into Gurdwaras( also some to Mandirs) in Punjab...not because of some religious expansion plan but all due to economic reasons. would you believe their are several thousands of Gurdwaras registered with various authorities accross US and Canada while there are only few hundred in actual existence. Rest are used as non-profit shelter for income and properties.

In brahminical hierarchy Jatts are shudras...and my theory is they(jatts) too believed in their superiority like Sainis and Kamboj when facing Brahmins for centuries..hence Jatt yeh and Jatt woh... which resulted them actually becoming upper castes in rural Punjab where they are in majority and controlled farm lands....additonal jatt Punjabi yeh kardoo woh kardoo of latest pop culture has taken this thing to the extreme....and it is working for them in a way..they control politics of Punjab on both sides of the border. but like any place this advantage is going to only rich and mobile.

Reality is vast majority of Jatts are dirt poor and getting poorer by the day as they lose their land holdings...In my village, I know many Jatts who have last acre of land in their possessions...their standard of living is getting worse than the people whom they call ``choorhas``. I have few pictures from my last trip out of which two stick in my mind.

One is family of a Jatt Sikh distant cousin of mine in the village...the guys came from work all dirty, hair spread, half torn clothes....children in poor condition, women in dirty clothes sitting on cots in the evening when I met them.

Other is of Saansi family of our village. These guys were poor of the poors 40 years ago when grandfather of the above Jatt family was sarpanch of the village. These poor people were kanjars/choorhas/chamaars/kammis/shudras/dalits all rolled in one. While I was passing through the street in front of their homes, a older lady came out and told me she is daughter-in-law of Kannu(the old saansi I knew)...then she looked inside her walled home with a door and called bunch of young people and kids....her son-in-law was visiting her home so she got everyone out and asked me to take a family photograph. The son-in-law wore decent pant shirt, clean shaven, relatively fair color(as many saansis have)...standing next to his brand new Bajaj Chetak and some young sansi girls and boys standing around him and the old lady.

I can bet if I show these two photographs you will switch th4e caste descriptions for both.

The dalit/Jatt clash is more pronounced in Doaba for NRI money reasons as you know.

Strongspirit, rsridhar

I don`t know who is this gidwani is, but all speculation (like the other one about the bridge built by humans between India and Sri Lanka) must be treated as speculation. Or, at least, it must not be advanced as fact: Caspian Sea named after so and so.

Now, in the real of possibilities, one can read up on the growing literature on Indo Eurpoeans (and their possible relationship to the Caspian Sea). If one finds that intriguing, one can search or wait for more definite knowledge, or simply dismiss the whole thing, depending upon one`s own peculiar interests.

re:#141 by dost-mittar
Have u read the book called ``The return of the Aryans`` by Bhagwan Gidwani? It is a well researched book. Author of the book has made the pitch that India had always been the land of Aryas (wrongly called Aryans) and that they migrated out in a distant past for better future (much like many of us have migrated out of India in the recent past). Many returned home as prodigal sons (much like many NRIs returning home recently!). It is an absorbing book. Did u know that caspian sea is named after the sage Kashyapa?
Anyway, the satellite pictures have delineated the river bed of Saraswati river that once existed. It is supposed to have dried up by 1900 BC following tectonic changes (earthquake? Tsunami type catastrophe?) in the earth`s surface. It (river Saraswati) was considered mythical until conclusively proved that it really existed. It puts to rest all the time frame that was talked about in the past. If Saraswati dried up by 1900 BC, Aryan invasion if it existed at all preceded this, putting to rest Max Mueller`s theory.
You can read all about this and more at : http://www.hindubooks.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=57
Sridhar
Sridhar

Re: # 146

Rsridhar,

I can`t believe anyone could take that book seriously! It`s a load of BS, probably paid for by various RSS/VHP types. The Caspian sea named after sage Kashyapa, indeed!!

Here`s a couple more of such gems, all by such ``reputed`` historians like Gidwani. (They seem to be really big on phonetic similarities!!)

- The word ``Sikh`` is derived from ``Saka``
- ``Abraham`` is a corruption of ``Brahman``
- Tamils are descendants of the Biblical Elamites (I think this is based on the fact that the Sri Lankan Tamils demand a homeland called ``Eelam``!).

Cheers,
SS

re: this article
Why i am not surprised that this article is no better than the ones this author has written before? Author has maintained her standards! (which, to most people who know what standards are, is non-existent).

The Sutra that Farzana bibi quoted: ``Dhol Ganwar Shudra Pashu naari,
Shakal Tadna ke adhikari…`` is credited to Manu. Tulsidas was probably only quoting an old text. Tulsidas, despite being a brahmin, swam against the tide of public opinion of his time and translated the sanskrit epic Ramayana (written originally by Valmiki) into the popular language of the North Brij? that is widely popular today, so much so that original text is forgotten. The same Manu who quoted the now ``infamous verse`` about women also said this: ``yatra naryastu na poojyate, na ramante tatra devataha`` (where women are not worshipped, even the Gods do not live there anymore).
Why did Manu talk in such confusing manner? He was not confused but he was talking in different contexts. I am not trying to justify his laws as these are not valid anymore but they force us to look at the times they were written. What was the caste like in those times? Why did it come into existence?
It would have been good if the author had researched a little into the genesis of caste in India. After all, it has existed for 5000 years and one needs to know why it does exist. One can just dismiss it as plain evil without understanding it or one does some deeper analysis to find out how it all started and how it has evolved.
India (or Bharat as it was called then; an older name being ``Aryavarta`` the land of Aaryas or good people) in the old times was governed by spiritual laws. This was the only way to govern a primitive society. There was no criminal justice system with Police at one end and Courts at the other to appehand and punish criminals in those times. And there certainly was no DNA fingerprint analysis in those times to say for sure who was the real father or mother! How then to govern a society and force certain norms?
Brahmins (some not all) became the lawmakers as well as interpreters of those spiritual laws. These laws were more like guidelines about how to conduct oneself and covered a wide specta of society including the King and the average man. The rulers of the day took these laws seriously as they came from very authentic and respected sources. These laws were often called Smritis (eg Manusmriti) or Sutras. Manu was the law giver many thousand years ago and his Smritis became laws that were enforced by the rulers of the day. Manu lived in the North. A similar lawgiver in south was a sage called Aapashamba (there were many; i am just quoting one). There were various such lawgivers at various times of history and their laws reflected the times they lived in. Some lawmakers even preceded Manu. Eg Baudhayana, Vasistha. A good account of Manu`s laws can be had at this Url: http://www.hindubooks.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=51

Coming back to the caste, it was based of spiritual laws. Brahmins of those days were not rich aristocrats. They lived simple spartan lives, in utter poverty sometimes, meditating on God, interpreting the sacred texts, performing religious rites etc They were also teachers in the Gurukula system where brahmins often lived with their students and taught them. A kind of residential hostel cum school! Often they were not supposed to demand any money for services performed and took with gratitude what was given. Teacher in a Gurukula for eg accepted Gurudakshina that was offered to him at the end of 7 years of teaching. No wonder they were so respected and were held in awe. Sacred texts gave them a special place so that they did not go without food and shelter.

Caste was not heriditary in the beginning. That is to say, a brahmin`s son did not automatically became a brahmin. Only those with spiritual inclination would be drawn to that area and became brahmins by mastering the sacred texts. Each veda (there were 4 in all) took about 7 years to study and master! So, we had Vedis, Dwivedis, Trivedis, Chaturvedis spelling out how many vedas they had mastered! (these last names are still to be found in the North; only they have no inkling what Vedas are about!). It was a difficult area. Brahmins, as always,were in a minority and were never more than 2-3% of the population.
Punishment for brahmins who failed in their duties was very severe. They were either excommunicated or barred from performing religious services. Punishment got less severe as one came down the hierarchy.
Like any other society, Indian society was divided into Priestly class, warrior class, merchant class and the working class. Why were strict laws enforced? It looks like ancient lawmakers were obsessed with purity of a class. They perhaps feared that the message would get diluted if laws were breached. For eg stricts laws existed for intermarriage. But there was still flexibility in the hierarchy. Someone from lower class could become a priest if he was so inclined and demonstrated his abilities. ``Dwaipayana Krishna`` (Krishna born in a Dweep or island) was born to a fisherwoman and became one of the greatest sages of ancient India and became famous as Veda Vyasa. He wrote Mahabharata and many other sacred texts. People had no problem accepting him as a brahmin (which really means: ``a knower of brahman or God``. Such people were however not very common.
Hinduism lost its vitality as it became hierarchial and as brahmins later became morally corrupt. The nexus between brahmin priests and rulers came to exploit the masses. Muslim invasion later made caste system rigid in an attempt at self-preservation. This is a topic for a seperate post. I would later also try to dwell into where Dalits fit into all this.
Sridhar

Re: # 144 sridhar

``The Sutra that Farzana bibi quoted: ``Dhol Ganwar Shudra Pashu naari,
Shakal Tadna ke adhikari…`` is credited to Manu.``

If I am not wrong thats the verse at the beginning of the movie on Phullan devi, the Dacoit Queen (?) by shekhar kapoor

Brahmin hamidm,

so for your daugthers, it`s westpoint, but for the poor `dalits` of america, it`s boot camp and then shipment to iraq, and for the `dalits` in Iraq, it`s death too... you hold no compassion for people who come from poor backgrounds do you?

they are somebody`s children too. ask cindy sheehan. ask lila lipscomb. i won`t be surprised if you don`t know these names, especially the second one, you can google them and find out about letters from dead soldiers.

supporting a war is supporting the deaths of innocents, you should be ashamed of yourself, a 50 something uncle supporting murder

Re: # 143

scout,

``you hold no compassion for people who come from poor backgrounds do you? ``

......... of course i do - my father tells me that he didn`t have shoes till he was five years old and had to walk eight miles to school every single day ....... and now, even though i do have shoes, i still have compassion for people without shoes and am a sucker for all those infomercials that show starving children in africa ......... i am also a card carrying member of amnesty international and actually helped jimmy carter build a home once ........

.............. however, i don`t have compassion for people who joined the military for an exciting life style, to see the world, and collect money for college ...... i guess they never thought that they also might have to go to war ....... tough !

p.s. i did see mike moore`s propagnda film about the great oil conspiracy - the man is a shameless charlatan and should be exiled to france ..... maybe he can have lila and cindy over for a holiday - the poor women need a break ........

Re: # 154
//... i guess they never thought that they also might have to go to war ...//

Well - you guess is wrong. Nobody has any hesitation for the war in Afganistan - the real war on terror.

But the war in Iraq is gone completely bunkers. It has helped strengthen the bedouins both in money and ideology. Who wants to die fighting a war which ends up making your enemy stronger?

Re: # 156

``But the war in Iraq is gone completely bunkers. ``

we may get to know the real reasons behind bushs policy may be in 15-20 years when the documents are declassified.
I think bush adm. has reluctantly realised this. ( i don`t see Rumsfeld that often on t.v.) and hence are moving towards getting out of it ASAP with as little harm as possible.

with his thumbing victory in 2004, it was clearly evident that americans still believed in bushs several lies and didn`t want to oust him.

Re: # 143


``Brahmin hamidm, ``


whats with that title, are you assigning some privileges to Brahmins in general?

FYI,
there are Brahmin jawans too in various regiments of indian army.

Re: # 143

``so for your daugthers, it`s westpoint, but for the poor `dalits` of america, it`s boot camp and then shipment to iraq, and for the `dalits` in Iraq, it`s death too... ``

as long as people are not drafted, it should not matter. Its a choice to join or not to join. Poor `dalits` can go to westpoint too if they qualify. Its a different matter whether they have the means to compete.

about Cindy Sheehan, I don`t support her cause. I think she is just happy hogging the limelight. Her son volunteered, got killed. its sad and a great loss but why should she blame bush for that? Any person joining army should be aware that risk to life is a part of the job. they are trained professionals (Again, this is not to suport war) wars are not predictable. You don`t get a years/six months notice.
Also, these pro-war demonstrators are another set of idiots. Their argumetn `` if you don`t support war you don`t support the army`` is just stupid. As if every/any soldier in the army wants a war.

Re: # 145
//....about Cindy Sheehan, ...Her son volunteered, got killed. its sad and a great loss but why should she blame bush for that?...//

Because - Bush is fighting what is now believed as an ``unnecessary war``. The complaint is not that her son was killed - but he was killed for no good reason. That`s the basic point of anti-war folks - it`s a wrong war - it serves no purpose.

Don`t get me wrong - I suppored this war too - on two conditions:

1. That US will control Iraqi Oil supply - thus breaking/denting the arab monpoly on world`s vital energy sources...... 2. That US will teach arabs a lesson - militarily and otherwise.

As it turned out - Incompetent Bush could do neither. Oil price is all time high - Arabs are minting money.... Militarily - insurgents have beaten US Army`s pompous a$$...... Instead of teaching the bedouins a lesson - Bush has ended up making them more rich and more vicious. Bedouins are having the last laugh....

Cindy Sheehan is right. Her son died for nothing. It was a complete waste of time, money and lives. It`s a complete disaster, worse than vietnam.

Re: # 149

``Because - Bush is fighting what is now believed as an ``unnecessary war``. The complaint is not that her son was killed - but he was killed for no good reason. That`s the basic point of anti-war folks - it`s a wrong war - it serves no purpose. ``

in that case, he(the person who got killed) should have refused to go to iraq, got courtmartialed and spent some time in jail. There no point in crying over spilt milk. She should have started to protest the day he was sent to iraq. Better than that people who have their kith and kin in iraq should come out and protest.

I agree with people who think this war is unnecessary, waged for wrong reasons without any goal and is going downill. but when the majority of the americans believed/believe that saddam was ``out to get them`` with his WMD`s and voted for Bush the second time, nothing could be done. well you can say the tyranny of the majority or may be the stupidity of the majority.

army doesn`t fight wars, nations do. army/soliders just take orders form C-in -C. which in this case is ``staying the course``.

So the best thing is stay out of it. right now the army/marines are having problem filling their ranks, as people are realising the futility of the entire exercise.

Re: # 152
//...There no point in crying over spilt milk...//

Actually, She is crying over her dead son. Yes, she should have protested before her son was killed. It`s her fault.

Re: # 153

`Yes, she should have protested before her son was killed. It`s her fault.``

i am not blaming her just pointing that it is futile. there are thousand other families which have bore the same pain. people who have opposed war and think that it is useless have realised it well before her son died. Moreover, her camping in front of white house has just into a pitch-battle between the anti- and pro-war groups. it just embarassing watching these families fighting over crosses of their dead sons.

amansandh,robbinhood
its not matter of security, it is the pseudo sense of superiority,which has not let most sikhs shed their castes away.Thats why they still give more importance to caste as compared to religion by writing the name of the caste before the religion.
Sikh leadership needs to do something about this before it goes totally on the same path as Hinduism or merge into it.
Akal Takht jathedaars issue hukamnamas on just drop of a hat,but I have still to see a hukamnama against casteist practices including separate gurudwaras.

Dilli waleya,sikhi nu bachaon di lor hai., je prem khelan da chao hai, taan aa jao sees tali tay dhar kay challiye....hun khatra turkaan ton nahin, jhoothay sikhaan ton hai.

drlokraj/arstoo:

I mentioned aryan incursion as the proponents of that theory are the only ones who have tried to explain why dalits were excluded from the varna system.

I am still agnostic about the Aryan incursion/invasion/migration theory. I have seen powerful arguments from both sides but no knock-out punch yet. And the RSS opposition to this theory is only recent; a century ago, people like Tilak were quite proud of their assumed european ancestry.

arstoo:
I have never said that no progress has been made. Just as the affirmative action program in the US was possible only because of the support of liberal whites, the reservations for dalits and other backward classes in India would not have been possible without the active support of upper caste hindus. The point, however, is that, just like in the US, these programs have only created a creamy layer of the underpriveleged groups and the societal attitudes have yet to change.

And could you please elaborate how the caste system was a barrier to the expansion of Islam in India?

Romair/dullabhatti:
For a small consideration, I am willing to be an interpreter between your potohari and majhavi.:-)

re#136
i am not discussing casteism in sikhism, i am saying that in rural punjab all castes except dalits have a same gurudwara. sadly, the sikhs could not shed their pre-sikhism castes even after coverting to sikhism. one reason can be that caste in india is related to identity, and people feel secure in having an identity.
also, it is the priest who normally controlls the finances in the gurudwara, except in really huge gurudwaras where there is a commitee.

drlokraj,

in rural punjab people all the castes have only one gurudwara. yes, the dalits have a different gurudwara but all the other castes like raisikh, kamboh, saini etc go to the same
gurudwara. it is iresponsile to make statements without knowing the facts and it also not true that the gurudwaras are controlled by jat sikhs. infact you will hardly find a priest in rural punjab who is a jat sikh.

Re: # 134
I had written gurudwara within commas for the same reason.They are not actually gurudwaras but common places of worship, but have been now labelled as gurudwaras.
The one which I mentioned about Talhan, was actually a ``samaadh`` of a mistry who died while constructing a well.His fellow mistry made a small samaadh, which people started worshipping....it became famous later and started attracting more and more visitors and annual offerings went into crores...it was then that it was declared to be a gurudwara and the local dalits were not included in the management,which led to the clashes.To authenticate it as gurudwara,the samaadh was broken.
Second case which I know is of village Basheshar Pur near Jalandhar,where ``gurudwara Baba Thakkar ji`` stands as proof where there was a small pond initially visited by people of the village once a month on ``masseya``.That pond has been converted into pucca sarovar and a notice has been put there reading that taking dip in that sarovar cures many diseases.
Sodhal mela is the most famous mela of Jalandhar,held at Sodhal Mandir, again attracting crores of rupees as offering. Guru Granth sahib was placed in one of the rooms there and the place declared gurudwara.
Granthis are only meant for carrying out the religous rituals or taking care of the SGGS,they dont have any say in the financial matters.
I have spent major part of my life in rural Punjab,I know what I am saying.
There may be common gurudwaras with non dalit backwards in villages where where their numbers are small....but why separate gurudwaras for dalits,when same Guru Granth Sahib is recited and worshipped in all the gurudwaras? and why this adjective of jat or ramdasia or mazhabi along with sikh...it has to be sikh or no sikh, what is jat sikh? if it is not casteism then what is it? and if it is casteism, then how is it sikhism?

Re: # 136
What you are stating is wrong?
Yes, there are two kinds(yes only two) of Gurudwaras in Punjab, Regular and Mazhabee.
The reason they are like so is not because one kind does not allow others to enter or worship. It is because of the control of the funding. Every other Gurudwara (Ramdass, Nirmalia, Kamboj etc) are due to the needs of the communities and made on their own free will not because they were pressured.

8/10 times Mazhabee Sikhs(chooras) make their own Gurudwara because otherwise, mostly Jatt control(SGPC infludenced) Gurudwaras do not let a Mazhabee to be in control of important matters such as Money. That is why Mazhabees make their own Gurudwaras, out of a desire to have full control.
This is the truth as I have seen it.
SGPC is more than 95% Jatt dominated body and is highly corrupt and spoiled, Sikhs would need another round of Morchas to liberate us from SGPC like in 1930ies against Hindu Mahants.

Is thier any proof of Aryan invasion of India?

Or is it the histor given to us by our imperial masters?

Gohana incident.
1. One man from lower caste went to get his photograph taken.

2. Photographer( a Jat) is from a cast higher than the person. They have an altercation.

3. Man from lower caste goes and comes back with few of his friends and have a foght with the photographer. In the tussle the photographer is killed.

4.People from the lowe caste basti are frightened and afraid of reprisals and most of them left the basti to near by town Rohtak, Sonipat etc.

5. The Jat community took this incident as a personal insult and organised a Jat punchayat and some of the attendee ( out of 2000 or so ) came with petrol and kerosene and burnt 50 or 60 houses.

My reading of this incident

1. First of all it is law and order issue. In the begining it was not a caste issue.

2. Inaction of the local police allowed it to become a inter community issue.

3. Politicians and some of the misinformed media people want to milk it to the maximum.

These things are the out come of systemic problems. Time after time we see it happening in India. The people in the absence of effective law and order maintenance take the law in their own hands. Some times politicians incite inter group violence also as happens in Gujrat, In delhi against Sikhs in 84.

Now the issue of caste system exploitation in Indian society ( it is not only hindus) is a blight on the Indian character and we must do every thing in our powers to remove it.

I think India has done a wonderful job in that direction and I must confess a lot more is required of Hindu society.

I will ask Farzana, Dost Mittar and other people who know India, please name one country, I repeat again one coutry in the world who has accepted the mistakes of their ancestors and try to rectify it.

If you ask me whether I am against caste system I will say no. But I am dead against the explotation of caste system. Higher castes have been exploiting lower caste for any reason. They have been exploited and prohibited to acuire knowlede, economic oppurtnities have been snached from them. They have been treated inhumanely.

So what is the solution, I think empower ment of lower castes is the solution. Which Indian constitution does. At the social level lot more need to be done.

Hindus should create new Hinduism. Each of us should treat everybody equal. We should take caste system out of relegion. This has caused a lot of problems.

The benfit of the caste system to Indian society are many. One of the main benefit of caste system was that it stopped the spread of cancer of Islam in India. If you see where ever Islam went it killed intelligentia and converted many of the people forcible. As facist poet Allama Iqbal say

Tu bata de ke ukhada dara-e-khaiber kisne,
kaat ke rakh diye kufaar ke lashkar kisne
Kisne thanda kiya aatish-kad-e-Iran ko
Kisne phir zinda kiya tazkira-e-yezdaan ko

Just imagine If whole India was Muslim. Just for a second imagine.

But it does not mean that we have to sit idle and do nothing to extricate caste system based inequalities in oppurtunities.

Re: # 132

``One of the main benefit of caste system was that it stopped the spread of cancer of Islam in India.``

why do you say so?

moreover, didn`t disenchanted dalits convert to islam?

dost-mittar ji thanks.
The assertion that dalits are those who were not allotted any castes,because they were the ghulaam qaum of aryans(being the natives and aboriginals) is only in line with the aryan invasion theory. There are people .on the other hand, mostly the followers of RSS,who now dont accept the aryan invasion.I dont know whether it is the move to spread their influence in south India or there is some other motive behind this and whether it is in any interest of the dalits.
But going by what wehave been hearing and reading since long,the closest fact seems to be that they are actually the original dravidian inhabitants.Almost all the dalits of the doaba region of Punjab,were strongly under the influence of Adi Dharam Mandal movement started by Mangu Ram,who was an active member of the Ghadar party and close to Lala Hardayal.This movement came about at the same time when Arya Samaj and Sigh Sabha movements were going quite strong in Punjab.
Because of the discrimination at the hands of upper castes, many people converted to Islam,Budhism and Sikhism...but I dont know whether that has ended their alienation or not. I can say at least about Sikhs from lower castes that they are still marginalized and hardly part of the mainstream sikh religeon.Though,in principle,Sikhism rejects castes,but in practice,in rural punjab,casteism is mainly practiced y sikhs. Lower castes (Ravidasias,Mazhabi Sikhs,BhatRas,Rai Sikhs,Kambojs,Sainis etc.) have separate gurudwaras and they marry within their own castes....love based intercaste marriages almost always lead to murders.....and common places of worships are being converted into ``gurudwaras`` and are controlled by so called higher castes--jatts.This is what actually led to bloody encounter in village Talhan near Jalandhar two years ago.
One religeon is the cause of trouble,other religeons and various reformist movements have failed to provide any solution, so what is the ultimate solution??

its probably warsi -- i thought the versey version that she uses is a more anglicized than anything --
alephnull do you always talk in such a pretentious manner?

Re: # 130
AFAIK Versey is not Warsi. Versey is pronounced as VirSee.

hamidm2

blame the pak army and not shastri and indira, both 65 and 71 were started by pak!!!!!!!!!!

Re: # 127
... and both were clearly lost by Pakistan as well, even though we still celebrate our ``glorious victory`` in the `65 war.

``Ontario schools have failed black students by having too few teachers of colour, too few courses on black thought and a zero tolerance code that hits black students hardest, charges a leading Canadian researcher into race and schooling.``
From Educator Calls for Creation of Black Schools

Further to pmishra2 #8, This is the root problem.Low education attainment and going for under skilled jobs is what plagues dalits and muslims in UP and Bihar. IMO radical changes in education system are required. If the population cannot adjust to the education system, the education system should change according to the people.
In Ontario there was a study on the high dropout rate of African American students. There was a proposal of separate schools for them, dont know if it was implemented.In my view , education should be geared more towards self employment and entrepreneurship, and should be tailor made according to the local environment.

dullabhatti #118: Bhatti Saab, mainu ukki nahin samajh aayee, tuseen kee kahna cha rahay ho. Par kujj douroon lagda hay kay siani gal keeti aye. Hence, I agree..........

scout #88: ``they have no right to applaud offensive institutions and policies.``

Yes, in any society, the empowered will rarely send their own kids into offensive battles. Many will, however, cheerlead other people`s kids into war. Those others will invariably be the poorer people of the country. If you do a cross-section of the US soldiers killed in Iraq, I can bet anything that their average per capita income will be far less than the US average.

It the job of the military to defend its own country. For that, one need not sent one`s own kids into it, if one does not want to. It should be the job of a volunteer military. But it is not the job of a military to be sent into offensive wars to push poltiical agendas of a group of rich elected folks. Especially when those rich folks will never send their own kids into such an offensive war.

If a person supports this war, and sends his own kid into it, I will disagree with him, but will at least respect him. But if someone cheers it on, and will never send his own kid into it, then they don`t deserve anyone`s respect. And if you go down the list of the top Republican leaders, and their top media personalities, it is the who`s who of rich people who avoided Vietnam, by hook or by crook, when it was their turn to serve.

This is why I think every Congressman voting for offesensive war should, by law, be forced to send their own kid into it, first. There would be no more offensive wars, because Congress would never vote for one...........

dullabhati,
hullo my rishtedaar, are in pakistan or usa, its confusing from ur post.
jats were hindu or muslims first before they became sikhs and many muslim jats in pakistan retain their sirnames. i have heard of sandhus, waraich, gill, bajwa etc in pakistan.
also you will find many indian sirnames similar to english and european sirnames, e.g.
bermen-burman, mitre-mitra, sweeny-swani, parmer-parmaar, rausing-raisingh, lamb-lamba, thackery-thakery, daimler-damlia etc and in jats there are hoon-hoon, man-maan, gill-gill, binder-bhinder, mundy-mand, sandoval-sandhewaal , randeva-randhawa etc. either people migrated from europe to india or vice-versa

Romair various


Romair bhayya pooray form mein aa gaye hai...

Chowkon per chowke, Chhankkon per chhakke maaray jaa rahay hai....

#117. I agree with you, people who hesitate to enlist their able bodied children to armed services of their country should not advocate sending their armies to war...or atleast should think twice before doing so.

by the same token people who oppose spending on war or army which is funded from their paychecks, should stop working and not pay taxes to the federal govt because that money is directly going to the war budget. if they are funding the army and opposing it at the same time, they no better than their politicians.

also, I don`t remember any of Jinnah`s children enlisted in newly formed Pak army when he sent troops up North. Same is true about most major democratic rulers in the world. Kings did send their kids to wars, but they were princes and enjoyed special previledges...children of political leaders in democracies don`t have any special previledges and titles...at least theoretically.

come`on romair...no one uses name Hanuman in India either.

in rural areas people are usually not very aware of names any way...Sheera becomes Kashmir Singh at the most when he gets married ....and never a time comes when he has to call him self Kashmir Singh Bhullar..everyone in village bhullar so big deal.....only people who grow up and move out of locality start using their full name.

e.g. my name was Dullah Singh until I was grown up and in university that I felt need to add my last name to it to differentiate from other dozen Dullah Singh in school....all my certificates and documents until I moved to US bear the name Dullah Singh...it was here I added Dullah Singh Bhatti....during my citizenship interview, it was confusing the the officer that why I did not use it before....he saw some lafRa in it. Even my Indian passport used to ahve Dullah Singh.

point is using or not using the real family name is no big deal unless some one using something else to hide it...then he is wanna be person.

BTW lot of sikhs drop the middle name Singh to make the name shorter...some liek dilliwala drop last name to show their Khalsa-ness.:-)

netizen
First of all we need to define who is an arab is it just some one who speaks Arabic, or lives in a specific region, because before the arab conquest of Palestine, Syria, Egypt, none of them spoke Arabic, it was only after 6 centuries of arab rule that they lost their language. In Palestine and Syria they spoke Aramaic, language of jesus, there are only few villages left in Syria where it’s spoken now, it’s related to Hebrew with similar alphabet. In Egypt they spoke Coptic language, it’s virtually died out now, spoken by a few Christian monks.

Here is a question in 50 years times most people in places like Bangalore will speak English, will that make them English?

Re: # 116

` because before the arab conquest of Palestine, Syria, Egypt, none of them spoke Arabic, it was only after 6 centuries of arab rule that they lost their language.``

didn`t arabs move there after the conquest? Similar to algeria where the victor arabs and the berbers still fight it out.
i think what happened in egypt/palestine is similar to what happened in the americas.

dullabhatti #: ``I am not sure about your observation about use of pre-islamic last names in Pakistan amongst Punjabis....I find majority does use Arabicized last names although most of them are aware of their real last names....``

People originally from the geographical areas of Pakistan, will generally tend to have these Hindu (or pre-Islamic) last names; even if they don`t use them. They keep them as a part of their name. Many don`t even know they are Hindu names. They just consider them family names. I don`t use my family last name in real life. Primarily because it makes my name too long, and because, on principle, I don`t believe in using such family last names, to declare status in public. Although it would give me some status (still) in my biradari areas. However, I do keep it officially as my last name as I consider it to be my ancestory. So if you meet an Arif Ali from Punjab. Ask him his full name on his passport. In many, if not most cases, it will be Arif Ali Warriach or something........While Arif Ali from Karachi will be just Arif Ali.

AlphaNull #``That is a very selective sample of Indian Muslim names.....In addition to ‘Khan’, it’s not difficult to find Mirza and Baig (Central Asian), Jafri, Razvi (or Rizvi) and Naqvi (Persian, I believe). Also ‘last names’ like Chowdhury, Antule, Marikar. Hardly Arabized.``

You are correct. I am trying to figure out how big of a sample they represent. Jafri and Rizvi (?) tend to be Shia names; especially if combined with Shia first names like Ali, Hassan, Fatima, Hussain, etc. I don`t know if they are Persian or Arabic. My guess would be Arabic...

Farzana #106: ``My first name is not Arabicised; it has Persian origins. It has two absolutely wonderful meanings -- wisdom and luminescence/fire :) ......The last name is Gujarati...``

You are correct (obviously, since it is your name). Farzana turns out to be Persian. Not Arabic. I have a hard time differentiating between Arabic and Persian names. Isn`t Varsey from Waris? In either case, neither seems to be a traditional Hindu name. Would you be Farzana Varsey Kulkarni or Devi or Kapoor or Dixit or Basu or Milani or Matondkar or Sen or Bhatt or Patel or Farzana Varsey Rai, by any chance?

If you were in Lahore or Jehlum, your name might be Farzana Varsey Raja or if you were in Sindh it would be Farzana Varsey Bhutto. If you are in Bombay, why isn`t it Farzana Varsey Tendulkar or Menjrakar? Just curious..........

Dost-mittar #105: ``Things have been changing fast in Pakistan in the Musharraff era. Sarees are in again as is classical music and dance. So are even Hindu sounding first names, especially among girls. So, you see names like Meera, Bina, Kiran, Rani, Sangeeta, etc.``

These names have been there for a long long time, in Pakistan. I think Indians have just discovered this about Pakistan, now, since they are finally getting a chance to see and understand the real Pakistan. Obviously the Meeras and Kirans weren`t born yesterday. They have been alive for decades. So, while Musharraf can be credited for a lot of things, he cannot be credited for this. Bina, is on many occassions, short for Umbareen. Any Urdu word - Kiran, Rani etc. - will be a common first name. I will consider things to have changed, in terms of names, if you start seeing names like Pooja, Ravi, Hunuman, Ram, Rekha, Padmani etc. as first names in Pakistan..........

Aslam644 #107: ``You seem to be creating more theories in a day than einstein did in his life time.``

I`ll take that as a compliment. Names are an interesting subject. They tell one a lot about sociological trends. This is a theory, in progress, under research. Not an established theory yet.

``Muhajir names tend to be biblical as well as Arabic i..e younis (jonah), zakaria (zaccaria),musa (moses), yousef ( joseph), dahoud (david), ibrahim ( Abraham), etc``

These are all Arabic names for people; nearly all of whom lived before the Bible. However, I don`t think any of these are really religious names. Non-Abrahamic Arabic speakers have these names also. Most of Quresh, including Muhammad, himself were initially non-Abrahamic. Yet they still had Arabic names, which they kept even after converting to Islam. There is, thus, no such thing as a Biblical or Muslim name. They are all Arabic names, common to all faiths in Arabia; Abrahamic or non.........

``BTW Egypt, Palestine, Syria, aren’t arab, just because they speak Arabic doesn’t make them arab.``

I believe these are all Arabic. I believe speaking Arabic is the only criteria for being an Arabic state. There are 22 such states in th world. Egypt being one of the key ones........

Ironically, the timing of the Gohana incident coincided somewhat with the 50th anniversary of a law giving effect to the abolition of untouchability in the Indian constitution (Civil Rights Act, 1955).

Renowned journalist P. Sainath, writing in the Hindu, highlighted the very important fact that we should not treat Gohana or Jhajjar before it, as one off or isolated incidents because by doing so we miss out on the larger picture. This larger picture includes discussion about quotas not only in education, but in the public and private job sectors as well; among other things, it refers to the ongoing debates about social justice.

Farzana Versey categorically states that this article is about violence (both overt and covert) against Dalits and not about issues like reservation. It is precisely viewpoints such as these that Sainath finds odd and questions. We aren’t making the right linkages. This does not however, in any way mean that we have to shy away from admitting that there is ongoing violence against Dalits. But we cannot afford to just leave it at that, especially when this crime is “systemic, societal and structured”. We need to look at the larger context.

The Dalits in Gohana apparently had gained from reservations. It was this gain that was intolerable to the Jats who wanted to show the Dalits their “place in society”. The government has supposedly offered the paltry sum of one lakh rupees for every affected household but that does not in any way act as a healing balm for Gohana’s Balmiki community who lost with their houses, their hopes and dreams for a better future.

The print media sadly devoted very little space to this incident and failed to generate a more constructive debate on the issue. I think Farzana Versey also failed in this regard as most of us on this board probably did already know about the obscene violence against Dalits that has been going on for centuries.

Also, I wish that the author would adopt a more reader friendly writing style, one that is more clear and coherent.

Dilliwala, I have a whole family of nephews nieces cousins growing up in US, UK and Canada....considering the way kids are going I am sure I wil have quite a multicultural multi racial family in few decades....I think everyone will..resisting this change is futile.

Re: # 113
Dullya,
This is precisely the mindset that has hurt the Sikhee, use Singh as your middle name as per convenience.
Singha ne Shahaddata dittyan sigeya Sir Katwa ke Sirdaari litte si.

Good bye.

Re: # 123
robinhood and quaidon are the other two nicks of delhiwala...this declaration is for chowk staff to take proper action vis a vis their multi-nick policy...

Dilliwala, but village names were named after the tribes that founded them or lived there. e.g. in Chak Gill, may be not everyone a Gill but majority of them were. But you are partially correct now a days everyone from Chak Gill calls his last name as Gill regardless of their caste.

Also, some other village may be named as Kot Jandoke, but all the jatt bridari living there may be Gill. That is true about most villages in central Punjab. e.g. Badal family belongs originally to a village in Amritsar named Moosa(I think so)....all jatt bridari in the village is Dhillon. So is Badal`s family but when they moved to Badal village in faridkot, they started calling themselves Badal(which is name of palce not a last name).
but you are right, it is good way to camaflauge ones `goat`. (no urstruly, it is not that one:-) )

Re: # 109
Dulla,
I do not believe in any Godh. I am a Sikh with relatives in different flavors(Khatree Zamindaars(both Sikh/Hindu), Jatt Zamindaars etc. I even have some relatives who have spouses as Chrisitans and Iranian.

I have seen some bold Jutts of India, who I know in USA certainly becoming chicken. I don`t know who asked that question. I have seen a Mazhabee Sikh(low caste) being a good friend and pucca Khalsa.

Anyways, I think Gills and Dhillons are certainly those people who follow the name of the village. I did not know that Badal was Dhillon, I always thought him to be Grewal from Malwa.

Interesting, I also learned other day, that Gills and Cheemas are really not their last names for Pakistanis. They just adopted the lastname of the cillage where they lived.
It seems that Mohammad Gill was not a Sikh before but he probably lived in some Punjab Village whose name was Chak Gill or something and his ancesstors adopted it and it stayed.
That would also explain christians with other Punjabi names as Gill,