The Dance of the Damned

Urstruly:

``this practice would be counterproductive to their progress because that way they will loose their special quota - now wouldn`t they?``

Their adopting a different caste name does not prevent them from getting the requisite certificate. It is not the name but the requisite certificate issued by the authority that is the basis for getting benefits.

``And if situation is so bad for upper caste hindus then shouldn`t they be adopting Dalit names to get into the reserved quota for others. After all how difficult it is to get a domicile in a country like yours and mine if you have the right amount of greese. ``

It does happen but it requires a huge amount of grease. I do know of someone who had managed to get a certificate to get into medical school. But they had to pay 8 lakhs as bribes. The amount is way higher than what most poor families can afford due to the system of government checks and balances.

Also, most caste on caste violence is not ``upper caste`` versus lower caste but lower castes versus Dalits. The exception is Bihar where the lower castes such as Yadavs have gained a lot of political power and they clash with Kayasths and Rajputs on one hand and Dalits on the other.

Re: # 33

``Those SC/ STs who convert from Hinduism to other non-caste based religions such as Chritianity, Islam and Buddhism are not eligible for Reservations. ``

I think SC/ST converted to Sikhism and Buddhism can avail of the quota system.

Now the dalits from Islam and christianity are clamoring to be inculded in the SC/ST reservations.

Stuka

Thank you. I am relatively more educated now. But I am curious why and how ``Dalits do not have a caste``. What does it mean according to theological doctrine.

Netizen:

``reservation and welfare benefits are granted to the Scheduled Castes professing the Hindu, Sikh, and Neo-Buddhist religions under the Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order 1950 as, amended in 1956 and 1990.``

You are right. Dalit Sikhs were granted the amendment in 1956 and Dalit Buddhists in 1990 on the basis that these two reigions are under the umberella of Hinduism. Obviously a move not appreciated by Non Dalit Sikhs and Buddhists. :)

#35 gujja is sniper or ranger.

dalits being out-of-caste and theologiocal doctrine..i would be surprised if anybody on this board knows anything about this except reciting a verse from manu-smriti, which itself no one reads or knows. think of it as an internelized vague bigotary..kind of the one you have for hindus.

Urstruly:

You have asked a complex question. Essentially the word ``caste`` is a European invention. In Hinduism it is Varna which actually means color, there is Jati which means Birth / Rank and is traditonally a subdivision of Varna and then there is Guna which correspond to the elements such as Fire, Water and Earth and which in turn correspond to attributes such as thirst for knowledge, action and sensuality.( rough translation which can also mean sloth, immediate fulfillment etc)

The Untouchables do not have a Varna but they do have a Jati and a Guna. Why that is the case I do not know though modern interpretations connect it to the Aryan versus non Aryan origin of Indians.

Re: # 18

dullahbhatti,

....... that was a brilliant observation !........ ``I never met a poor dalit in colleges and universities. All dalit students I knew in Colleges and university came from well to do dalit families. Their fathers had good jobs..or..atleast they were at financial level much above an average indian. ``

........ like you, i can say the same thing about pakistan : `` i never met a poor pakistani in college - they all lived in big houses with servants, gardners and drivers ...... their fathers were senior officers in the military or civil services and they had cake and padtry with their tea every single day ! ..........hence, everyone in pakistan is fat and rich ``

....... both of us are simply brilliant !

blathering brahmins ,

........... every time someone mentions the dalits the upper, and not so upper, class indians on chowk start talking about the injustice of reserved seats and the quota system ........... shame on you!.......... you guys sound just as bad as the pathetic pakis (dalit converts) who get their hackles up every time someone mentions the way they treat women, ahmedis and pigs .............

Re: # 40

in Pakistan pigs have 10% quota allocated to them, and also they occupy all the key posts in bureaucracy, education, and government; at least they shouldn`t be oinking.

Something I have always wondered about:

How exactly can one tell the caste of someone from India? I meet so many everyday, but cannot tell their castes. I would be politically incorrect to ask, hence I don`t. But I have always been curious. A few Brahmins have, themselves, told me. Other than that, no one else has......

So what`s the method? Is it a birthmark. A last name. Does the size of the dot on the forehead indicated anything. Color of skin (the brahmins seem more fair skinned). Is there a secret handshake. Political affiliations. Geographical affiliations. Professions they go into.

And what if I am a Dalit and migrate to the USA, and declare myself a Brahmin. How in th world would anyone know? And do the Indian IT people in North America, actually follow any of this. For example, what if a Dalit businessman starts a company and hires a Brahmin janitor?

Re: # 42
...in their cases they don`t have to open their flys...;)

stuka, is your post based on knowledge you had growing-up or is it from a web-site? this is an important distinction.

romair, hamid can tell it from the noor on thir faces.

hamidm sahib, you are so good at your style which I greatlya dmire that I am now confused whether you are saying what you are saying or opposite of it.:-) What makes me suspicious is your last sentence in quotes ``..hence, everyone in Pakistan is fat and rich``.
In case my suspicion is correct, I would request you to read next 2 sentences in my post.

``Poor dalit kids in villages and poor bastis in cities don`t get a chance to take advantage of these reservations. A small number of dalit elites are rising up in India faster than a rocket while vast masses of dalits remain in poor conditions accross the country. ``

hence, I am not brilliant but I might be close to truth in my observation even if not politically correct.

You would agree that giving affirmative action benefits to Kobe Brynt and Shakeeloneil`s kids would not solve problems black kids are having in inner cities.

Sure some poor dalits are rightly benefiting from reservation system...but mostly it is already benefited ones benefiting again....while ones who deserve don`t even have the time to go to primary school because they are too busy stitching shoes, cleanign toilets or grazing someone`s buffalos.

>>>For example, what if a Dalit businessman starts a company and hires a Brahmin janitor?<<<

sure if brahmin is willing to give up his cushy job at wall street..why not.:)

There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of castes (jatis) in India. Dalits are perhaps 10-15% are have been traditionally severely disadvantaged.. much like african americans in the US context ... the former President of India Mr. K. R. Narayanan was a dalit (perhaps converted to xtianity).. the most famous Dalit is the chair of the committee that wrote the Indian constitution, Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. In fact, if I am not wrong, dalits (not to be confused with shudras or lower castes) are outside the caste system. Mahatma Gandhi called Dalits as Harijans (children of God) but this term isnt used a whole lot and doesnt have the militancy associated with the term ``dalit``.

In the urban setting, caste has mostly relevance for purposes of marriage.. This is seen in the format for various matrimonial ads (interestingly caste or some variant also plays a role in endogamy in xtians, muslims and sikhs)

inter caste marriages however are quite common.. I suppose in these cases caste loses what little meaning it has for the kids. identity would be based much more on class, language and other aspects.

most urban indians nowadays would not even know what caste someone belongs to, unless said individual was from their own specific caste and spoke the same language (or came from the same region). It is considered very rude to ask someones caste and most people simply have no clue regarding the caste of the other (unlike their linguistic or regional identity as a Punjabi for example)

nowadays caste discrimination/violence mostly happens between the so-called lower castes and the dalits (or even between different sets of lower castes) and a lot of this is in the cow-belt (UP, Bihar).

indian politics is increasingly dominated by the lower castes... the upper castes will be found in large numbers in the MNCs, private enterprise, Science&Tech and to an extent in the bureaucracy.

in modern institutional settings there is minimal caste awareness, at least compared to language/region awareness. sometimes people are clueless about their own caste! esp. if they have dropped their last name.

having said all this.. it is unclear as to what the point of this article is. The main point that urban society is even more casteist is flat out wrong and not worth debating. It is very class conscious.. which city is not ?

did I really see that? hamidm exposed as a knee-jerk liberal.

must be all the Katrina images he`s seeing on the telly.