The Rainy Season

Re#43 by ahmedmadani

Dear Mr. Madani,

You are such a sweetheart – I am so glad you decided to land here – a lot healthier than any “kafir sensing” missiles landing – though some can make the argument that some of your witty lines have the same potency as those Pakistani missiles – I am sure you are fully capable of spelling DUD! (Just kidding, I am very fond of individuals who can pull witty lines and punches left, right, top, bottom, up, down, any which way – sometimes I try to do those myself – unfortunately the recipients do not usually demonstrate the same level of reciprocation – at least not according to what they tell their medical doctors (you know, broken bones and all) at the time.) And while I am discussing other interactors, I must express my appreciation for what I consider the freshness of your interacts – which, alas, had not previously received from me the level of attention that they deserved.

By the way, I think you guys should attempt to come up with some better terms than “kafir” to refer to all Hindus – for one thing, your term does not distinguish between South Asians and other Hindus – or even Europeans – secondly, it reinforces a stereotype of the kafir built for nefarious reasons a long time ago by individuals who were not as intellectually evolved as yourself – secondly, as you already know it is always utter lunacy to lump any one group of individuals together – as perhaps many westerners have been recently doing to your countrymen and to your coreligionists.

I enjoyed your detailed descriptions from the past. The vividness of some of those details is astonishing – considering (based on your interacts) that you are closing in on what many people unkindly call the senile sixty-seventy range – I do not believe that adjective, of course, keeping in mind that in the U.S.A., many individuals take their nuptial vows at that time in life.

I am also very impressed by the great diversity in your areas of knowledge – let me produce just ONE old example –

From the board “The Virgin Bride” on August 11, 2001
Nasifa Haji Sahiba.....respective madam you have sinned by spreadig garbage.if u fil u become celebraty by riting sex stories you are total wrong.Now sexpicturesbooks and videoxxx is available everywhere. Lot hot stuf coming from urope and america. 2800Rs you get casset with real beatiful all white girls and boys. Now its busyness in food eating place.is spread u want ppl to have sex before married, they are having too much is problom.Old men go in little romms and watch sex movies while drinking tea its too comon. :)

But I digress!

The Book from which this article/translation derives is the Ramcharitmanas. I am not an expert on this Book or things of that nature (and my understanding of music approaches the absolute zero) – I just enjoy it. I am ashamed to admit that I have not read Kalidasa – in my part of Bihar, we had a shortage of libraries – it’s my understanding that things have not changed much, since the present day rulers firmly believe that the general population has little need for such luxuries and that it is highly supercilious (not to mention impractical) to ponder proses of classics while rocking back and forth delicately balanced on top of that buffalo grazing its pasture. (Now that you mention it – it is entirely possible that the local librarian was keeping that copy of Kalidasa all for himself – probably for its erotic value!)

I wish you good luck in locating English translation of the Ramcharitmanas on the internet – I was not very successful myself, but new stuff is coming up all the time. I agree with your observation on the Ramayana except I would not call (entirely by mistake, I am sure) the metaphors “pathetic” like you do, or the birds “gay” in the sense that term is presently used. As far as the variety of paces contained in the Ramacharitmanas is concerned it was summarized in a quotation from a foreign author toward the end of my interact #27.

Perhaps Ms. Sadna and you could conduct discussions over this, since both of you have read the Valmiki Ramayan – and I have not.

I tried to provide a few details from the life of Tulsidas in a few of my interacts (e.g., #25, #29, etc.) and included a couple of links to more detailed biographies (in #25).

I understand the concern that you express regarding the classics disappearing from the scene from the subcontinent. I see it already happening in the second generation of Indian Americans here. I doubt that the “inferiority complex” has much to do with it – if anything, based on what I see around me, the present generation of Indian Americans (and I am sure the same is true of the Pakistani crowds and others, and also both outside and inside India) is much more sure-footed and comfortable with its identity than its parent generation – perhaps because they were brought up in a different educational system and are not hostage to the past. But the available time-frame has stayed the same and other demands on that time have come up. Also, sometimes I do feel that although it is very beautiful indeed – our cultural heritage – it imposes a lot of never-ending taxes on our whole thought process and stifles curiosity and innovation like poison – for example, the unquestioned reverence based on age – without any considerations of how the time associated with that age was actually spent – comes to mind and then I wonder – have we REALLY traveled that far from the days of the Tulsidas?? In my mind, there are pluses and minuses to that heritage we carry with us everywhere – and the net benefit of course would depend on a wise selection of what we keep and what we throw away – we DO need to throw away a few things otherwise we will stay exactly where we remain – stuck!

I am glad you enjoyed the translation! It makes me feel good. All the best to you!

#49 Hindvi

Dear Sir, do you have anything of value to add to these discussions from your own considerable repertoire, or are going to limit your comments to the unsurpassable buttering up of other individuals only?!

These spaces are not closed to you, you know, and in spite of any morbid fears that you may harbor - you are unlikely to get bit (at least at the present time)!

Ahmed Madani

You have a poet`s soul and a philosopher`s eye. I never thanked you for your exposition of the austere beauty of mathematics. You are a most eclectic man.

BeeJ:

Yes, I am peeking in and enjoying the interactions of others, esp. sadna`s. I also believe that it is better to stay quiet when one doesn`t have anything useful to contribute.

Now, go ahead and shout chicken as many times as it takes to make you feel better. Being a chicken, of course I wouldn`t respond.

BTW, I am an old admirer of Madani saheb. He and I go back a long way on chowk and we have also exchanged emails off-chowk.

Re#45 Kaalchakra

Re#44 Dost-Mittar Jee

As the “moderator” of this board – I hope I don’t get affected by the term – since I am not necessarily a believer in moderation – I request you to cease and desist from taking the cheapest of the cheapest of the cheapest shots at the sweetest of the sweetest of the sweetest of interactors who happen – on the rarest of the rarest of the rarest occasions – to grace MY board.

Mr. Ahmedmadani has at least made an attempt to comment on the contents of the article. I am currently carefully reviewing his reasonably well-detailed interact in order to be able to respond to it.

I would have expected that since the two of you are indeed – peeking in – as the term goes – would have something substantial and meaningful to contribute of your own!

Therefore, show me what you got – or forever be ready to be addressed as a chicken! And start getting ready to undergo the fate that befells such creatures – in just a matter of time! (If you don’t know what I am talking about – go check the Gillster board!)

Yes, you heard me! CHICKEN! Yeah!

Mr. Ahmedmadani, please do not get dissuaded by such troublemaker individuals – please bear with me while I carefully study your interact in order to design a suitable response. Thank you.

madani sahab:
that was pretty awesome write-up !..
do you know if rainbow center would have classical raag/malhaar recordings on audio CDs.? (i.e. if you are in karachi)

thanks.

If ahmadmadani is a Pakistani, then he shouldn`t be allowed to know about Indian classics as much as he does. He surely gives us all a tremendous complex.

ahmadmadani:

``Other epic poem from India I enoy is ``Geet Gopal`` one of sweet poetry written by Mr. Jaydeo and have copy of it as indian classic.``

I think that you are referring to ``Geet Govinda``.

BTW, I have now officially joined the club of sceptics who think that you are an Indian wearing a Pakistani naqaab. :-)

Re: # 33
Thanks Mr. Beej to give us some feeling some glimpses of Tulasi Ram Charitra.
First I do not have great knowledge about old Indian classics only read English translation and enjoy those old treaties.

Some times accidents change things and you find things you like. When I was doing my B.A. in Karachi in 65 , being biblographic the Univ. Libraian was friend of my maternal uncle( MU). ( I did not complete BA , physical ailments, premonation of future depression ? ) They decided then junk old unused and no demand Indian classic books as a policy. He told me I can have all those books , you can carry by lorry. I told him will get few and I asked him to give me about 100 books ( all english translation) and will try to read when time permitting. He suggested and my maternal uncle`s friend with car ( at that time only ``real rich`` people had car) helped me to transport. That way I was introduced to indian classics.

Secondly gift for life due to my maternal uncle was appreciation of Indian classical music. Karachi Engg College was full of Hindu Marathi Professors. As things changed all left for Bombay. MU was working engg and was scholarly engineer and always kept contact with teachers/ Prof Deodhar, Chipulnkar... can remember much time washes all. These were very cultured people and had good Records of 3 minutes and large upto 7 minutes. It was not possible to carry them back they gave all to my MU. HE introduced me to Classical music and have still records of Artits like Abdul Karimkhan, Hirabai Barodekar, Sureshbabu mane, Abdul Wahid Khan, Many marathi drama songs...)

About Shiv and his making ashes of Madan the companion of Rati. One the best classics of Kalidas `` KumarSambhava`` is story of that. How Madan tried to break the attention of lord Shiva. I always felt that is best work of Kalidas speciallly never read any such romantic or even erotic poetry written in world. ( Kumar Sambhava, Meghdoot, Raghuvansha, Shankuntal and Malvikagni- Mitra- last is not great , all others are according to me.) Incidently Kalidas always refers in poetry to surrounding landmass, mountains, rivers, waterbodies, animals and flora and that is wonderful. He is Impressed ny natural things, like in his epic Meghdoota he starts with `` Ashad ( Vernacular Punjabi month is almost exact version it appears) Months first day ( clouds have started moving, what a height of imagination and romace of idea of sending his beloved a message via clouds) or in Raghuvansha Rama refers to Lanka as evergreen golden Lanka and tells his brother the appreciation of that place and he exclaims still I want to go back as mother and motherland is more dear to me than heaven.
Unfortunately I have no copy of Tulsiram`s Ramcharitra. I will try to find and read translation by internet if in english. Translation is tricky part some times orginality is lost but with apprecative and imaginative mind one can enjoy most classics.

Other epic poem from India I enoy is ``Geet Gopal`` one of sweet poetry written by Mr. Jaydeo and have copy of it as indian classic.

Now returning to story of Ramayana. Ramayana is moral science while mahabharata is social science both complex and with its pathetic metaphors. Ramayana`s start is most serene, sad and solemn. Any person with little heart and appreciation can feel the beginning of epic. Courting gay birds and hunter takes aim and Sage Valmiki comes out of meditation and shouts please do not send arrow and arrow has left and stikes bird and the companion bird screams and dives to see at gone bird and then screams. Sage Valmiki is touched by Pathos and starts the story. Never has seen by eye such start so dramatic and so evocative. ( Second epic is also same way a Mighty warrier Arjuna on way to war front looses his heart and goes in depressiona nd story starts...)

At onset of Ramayana there are hints of privations of moral man his suffereing even moral Rama suffers , a devoted son, devoted husband, moral man, moral king has to suffer like all mortals. King Bhavbhooti wrote a famous classics `` Uttar RamCharitra``.

Tulsidas made great service to society by bringing the moral story in simple language of hindi and made available to masses so they can sing enjoy and imbibe the essense of life of Rama as most people would not have understood sanskrut language treates of Ramayana.

I have read a story of Tulidas . It is said he was in love and wanted to see his beloved. There was flood in Jamuna ( or Ganges?) and did not know swimming. The power of love was so overwhelming he jumped in water and got hold of dead floating human body and used as a floating device to reach destination ?

I now a days fear soon classics from India will be lost as inferiority complex and general downward trend towards finding common acceptable marketable ``manufactured`` products will dominate as world is becoming technical and domination of English and derivative effects and integration. I have not seen movie or TV for decades may be due to physical ailments but I can read and classics give me pleasure. Art of poetry is lost as there is no rhythum. Some loss of rhythum is acceptable even Shakespear uses free verse or in 1930s Bengali Mr. Micheal Madhusudan Dutta started ``Mukta Chhanda`` for writing poetry. Now a days most poetry is not poerty but some lazy writers writing lines with no rules. They can use straight writing composition. While some times verse is written as poetry, like in KingLear which cathes ear. Appreciation is not easy and slowly going away and there is eternal problem of to enjoy culture one should be cultured.

Again thanks for translation of lines from Tulsidas, enjoyed.

good luck everybody

#41 Temporal

Thank you T-bhai, for resurrecting “your” CC! No need for maazrat – I think Tulsidas has no choice but to forgive you for her intrusion – he died in the year 1623. :)

I am duly impressed by your wily and skillful navigation through the choppy waters of the women’s treatment issues that I helped Sadna guide through – which she perhaps did not really ask to be guided through. You, on the other hand, masterfully SKIRTED it – claiming (or perhaps feigning) ignorance on the subject of this article – all that touting of that totem pole notwithstanding!

T-Bhai, you are a rare commodity – you admitted ignorance of an item in this vast multitude of chowk crowds – consisting of those tummy-turning termagants and their treacherous tricksters – writhing in the everlasting joy of imposing everlasting agonies on each other – when they could have been HERE, writhing in agonies imposed at a closer range by THIS writer – oh well!

I guess I have no choice but to seek each one of those LOST souls on an individual basis and provide them with the much-needed enlightenment – which the dear Tulsidas missed by about four hundred years – on a one-to-one basis!

Thanks again – and sincerely,
Beej.

tulisdas say maazrat kay saath! beej sahib ki khidmat maiN

cc: why don’t u answer ur phone?
t: my phone?
cc: (rolling eyes – must be one of those days)
t: (she knows i dislike answering phones)
cc: i forget your unflinching support for the voice mail
t: achcha baitabi kis baat ki thee?
cc: am forever in a hurry yaar...there is only so much time allotted…
t: (tapping fingers on the desk)
cc: …what’s up with this beej fellow?
t: nothing…probably bored
cc: why is he taking aims at me?
t: he is?…i thought he just admired you
cc: aha, so i have another closet admirer
t: (these women!)
cc: i am beginning to like him
t: (more tapping)
cc: achcha maiN chalti hoon: don’t reply to your fan club;)
t: i don’t…they love me for it:)
cc: you know they are all ok
t: yeah i know, it is me!
cc: arey bura kyun maan rahay ho
t: stating the obvious
cc: (bura maan ga’aye) bye
t: kh

there is a bit more on the i-log

#38 Sadna

I understand and agree with what you say here.
Also, you are welcome.
And Thanks again.

#39 Arstoo

Thanks for that tip on the devotional music cassette. I will look into it. I did not find too much detailed/specific information on the Gundecha Brothers web site – if you have such information, please provide. (The closest thing I see is a CD/cassette of “Morning Chants – Sri Rama”.)

I will try to look up the lines “Shyam gaur kim jai…” you brought up, to understand its context – it DOES appear to have a familiar ring – “Shyam gaur” is a favorite term of Tulsidas to describe the pair – Rama and Laxmana, and seems to occur repeatedly throughout the Book – in several chapters. Once I understand the context, I may be in a better position to answer your query. I am also unfamiliar with the Rajinder Krishan song you mention – does it have the same context – I’ll try to look into it.

Hi Beej

Do you know that Gundecha Brothers have part of this ver well. If you don`t know than try buying the Music Today cassettes of India Today magazine.

Can you please transalate

Syam gaur kim jai bakhani
Gira anain nain bin baani.

I think the bollywood song writer Rajinder Krishan tried it in one of his song

Tujh ko dekha hai meri nazron ne
Teri tareef ho magar kaisay
Ke banay ye zuban nazar kaisay
Ke banay ye nazar zuban kaisay

But Tulsidas`s version is orginal and more sweet.

Beej#37

``I sometimes wonder if there are some underlying connections between the mythologies!``

I couldn`t say, but I wouldn`t be surprised.

``one must take the fact you describe and posit it against the background of what was being EXPECTED of her! As has been amply elaborated by the women libbers and the like, too often we try to make divine heroes out of simple REAL people``

No need to make them divine heros. People are depicted doing things for love everyday in literature, TV and in movies, why not in the Ramayana? It is a source of wonder to me why Sita is considered submissive and beleagured when from the text it seems she was anything but.


``Consider her upbringing, her conditioning and training from childhood – the reflexes tuned to the task of turning topsy-turvy at the slightest twist of the tongue – that famous or perhaps infamous line – “loag kya kahenge!” Yes, she perhaps DID love Rama and perhaps DID insist on going with him when he was banished – but what would have been her fate had she NOT gone – just think of Urmila``

In a way you are right. A wife, once defined as `ardhangini` or half-partaker of everything, could then be expected to insist on being such. But it doesn`t seem(to me) from either text that Sita was not offered real alternatives to going with Rama. In Valmiki, Rama and Sita spend 3-4 chapters arguing about it.


Thanks for your expansive replies- I enjoyed reading them. I am glad that you took my `quibbles` the right way. It is interesting to hear informed povs on this subject matter- so many thanks for that too.

Re#33 by sadna

Once again, I must thank you, especially since I finished the answer to your previous question in only two parts, whereas I had made slots for three parts. So here goes.

[To my knowledge, no ladies were burnt to ashes with Shiva`s third eye. He burnt to ashes the male God of Love Manmatha? who shot an arrow at Shiva to get him interested in Parvati.]
You are absolutely right, ma’m! But of course! Clearly, your grasp and understanding of the god of love is FAR superior to that of this interactor! By the way, I have always wondered about the similarity between Cupid and Manmatha – and the fact that they both carry bow and arrows! I sometimes wonder if there are some underlying connections between the mythologies! Perhaps NHK (Another one of those “choohas” who is too timid to stick his head in here, alas, if only they were less intimidated! Oh well!) could enlighten us regarding the origin of some of those figures and lores.

[…Sita did a lot of stuff because she wanted to. In both Valmiki and Tulsi, everybody concerned including Rama tried to persuade Sita not to accompany him into the forest. It was she who insisted on going.]
Alas, I must beg to differ with you on this issue – one must take the fact you describe and posit it against the background of what was being EXPECTED of her! As has been amply elaborated by the women libbers and the like, too often we try to make divine heroes out of simple REAL people – conveniently forgetting that such people are also as Ratnavati so eloquently put to Tulsidas – not much more than just another “bag of bones and flesh” – they live and breathe and eat and defecate and have mood swings and have good days and have bad days and full days and empty days and days that end too quickly and days that do not seem to end and their moments of strength and last, but perhaps the most important, their moments of weaknesses. Sure Sita had a choice, but did she have one for practical purposes? Consider her upbringing, her conditioning and training from childhood – the reflexes tuned to the task of turning topsy-turvy at the slightest twist of the tongue – that famous or perhaps infamous line – “loag kya kahenge!” Yes, she perhaps DID love Rama and perhaps DID insist on going with him when he was banished – but what would have been her fate had she NOT gone – just think of Urmila (hint: Urmila WHO?)

[Finally, in the (Valmiki) episode of Sita`s banishment when she was pregnant, when years later Rama was reunited with his sons and he went to fetch her back - she refused to go back with him and preferred to return to ‘Mother Earth’ instead. That is an unmistakable indictment of the male, or no?]
Absolutely, I agree! Perhaps for the first and ONLY time in her life that Sita indeed have a CHOICE, sans pressures of any kind, peer pressure included – and look what her choice was! Oh well!

Q.: How many Ramayanas are there exactly?
A.: There are over 300 traditional versions and I’ve read (in English translation) more than 200, not counting the hundreds of oral narratives.

Q.: Are there any patterns discernible in these ‘types’?
A.: I think there are two strands visible—Ramayanas which deal with happiness in union and those which deal with the sorrow of separation.

Q.: That sounds like the emotional dynamics of classical dance—the counter- pull between vipralamba (separation) and sambhoga (union).
A.: Exactly. Sita’s either banished or there’s a mangalam ending. There are more Ramayanas that favour a happy ending, in fact, as many know, there’s this theory that the Uttara Kandam (Agnipariksha) was added later. But sadness is truer to life, perhaps? Ram is never happy after Sita’s banishment.





http://www.hvk.org/articles/1002/180.html