The Rainy Season

Beej

It`s a pure pleasure to read the original, and to witness your spectacular effort here.

You, my friend, are a remarkable person even in the gallery of Chowk`s luminaries. My sincere congratulations.

As this page slowly but inexorably moves toward its rightful place in those infamous recesses of the chowk underbelly, it is only appropriate to say the following few words (and I, yes I, have so few words right now!)

Thanks to all of those who took the time to read this and also to those who provided comments.

In particular, Mr. Ahmed Madani deserves my heartfelt thanks for providing his overall impressions and also for regaling us with those old-time stories – sir, you are fascinating – and I really enjoy your interacts.

Sadna – your painstakingly looking this piece over made me feel highly gratified. You are a true sadhika and if someday the Chowk bans you – you could switch to that new nick – or you could do so just for the heck of it – like some other people around here!

Mishra-jee, what can I say – you seem to enjoy some of the same things that I do!

Circle of Time, Rahulmal, and Miriamk – thanks for your encouraging words.

Subroto – don’t stop working on those rhymes, there is a LOT of work ahead!

T-bhai – your encouragement is very much appreciated and I am glad you watch out for unpoets!

Even the wisecracking public must be thanked profusely – for giving me the opportunity to talk – and to out-talk you!

The rest of the crowds – who got intimidated by the subject matter (Tulsidas is not everybody’s cup of tea, of course) – hey, don’t feel bad, you have a lot of company!

As requested by one interactor a bit earlier, an updated transcription – along with its Devanagari version original – appears below.

{sundar ban kusu-mit ati sobha, goon-jat madhup nikar madhu lobha}
सुंदर बन कुसुमित अति सोभा – गुंजत मधुप निकर मधु लोभा
{kund mool fal-patra suhae, bha-ye bahut jub te prabhu aye}
कंद मूल फल पत्र सुहाए – भये बहुत जब ते प्रभु आए
{de-khi manohar saiel anoopa, rahe-tanh anuj sahit sur bhoopa}
देखि मनोहर सैल अनूपा – रहे तहँ अनुज सहित सुर भूपा
{madhu-kar khag mriga tanu dhari dewa, karahin sid-dha muni prabhu kai sewa}
मधुकर खग मृग तनु धरि देवा – करहिं सिद्ध मुनि प्रभु कै सेवा
{mangal-roop bhaya-u ban tub-te, keenh niwas Rama-pati jub-te}
मंगलरूप भयउ बन तब ते – कीन्ह निवास रमापति जब ते
{phatik sila ati subhra suhai, sukh aaseen tahan dwow bhai}
फटिक सिला अति सुभ्र सुहाई – सुख आसीन तहाँ द्वौ भाई
{kahat anuj sun katha aneka, bhagati birati nrip-neeti bibeka}
कहत अनुज सन कथा अनेका – भगति बिरति नृपनीति बिबेका
{barsha kaal megh nabh chhayey, gur-jut laagan param suha-ye}
बरषा काल मेध नभ छाए – गरजत लागत परम सुहाए

{Lachhiman dekhu more-gun, naachat baarid pekhi}
{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
लछिमन देखु मोर गन नाचत बारिद पेखि
गृही बिरति रत हरष जस बिष्नु भगत कहुँ देखि

{ghan ghamand nabh garjat ghora, priya heen darpat mun mora}
घन घमंड नभ गरजत घोरा – प्रिया हीन डरपत मन मोरा
{daamini damak rahee ghan maaheen, khal kai preeti jathaa thir naheen}
दामिनि दमक रह न धन माहीं – खल कै प्रीति जथा थिर नाहीं
{barashahin jalad bhoomi near-ayen, jatha navahi budh vidya paayen}
बरषहिं जलद भूमि निअराएँ – जथा नवहिं बुध विद्या पाएँ
{boond aghaat sahahin giri kaise, khal ke bachan sant sah jaise}
बूंद अघात सहहिं गिरि कैसे – खल के बचन संत सह जैसें
{kshudra nadeen bhar chalahin torayee, jus thore-hun dhan khal it-raa-yee}
क्षुद्र नदीं भर चलीं तोराई – जस थोरेहुँ धन खल इतराई
{bhoomi parat bha-dhaabar paani, janu jiv-hi maaya lup-tanee}
भूमि परत भा ढाबर पानी – जनु जीवहि माया लपटानी
{samiti-samiti jal bharahin talava, jimi sad-gun saj-jana pahin aawa}
समिटि समिटि जल भरहिं तलावा – जिमि सदगुन सज्जन पहिं आवा
{sarita jal jal-nidhi mahun jayee, hoi achal jimi jiv Hari payee}
सरिता जल जलनिधि महुँ जाई – होइ अचल जिमि जिव हरि पाई

{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}
{jimi pakhund baad-tein, goopt hohin sad-granth}
हरित भूमि तृन संकुल समुझि परहिं नहिं पंथ
जिमि पाखंड बाद तें गुप्त होहिं सदग्रंथ

{daa-dur dhuni chahu dishaa suhai, bade pa-dha-hin janu batu samudai}
दादुर धुनि चहु दिसा सुहाई – बेद पढहिं जनु बटु समुदाई
{nav pallav bhaye bitap aneka, saadhak mun jus mile bibeka}
नव पल्लव भए बिटप अनेका – साधक मन जस मिले बिबेका
{urk-jawas paat binu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khul uddwam gayaoo}
अर्क जवास पात बिनु भयऊ – जस सुराज खल उद्दम गयऊ
{kho-jat katahun milai nahin dhooree, karai krodh jimi dharamheen doori}
खोजत कतहुँ मिलइ नहिं धूरी – करइ क्रोध जिमि धरमहिं दूरी
{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
ससि संपन्न सोह महि कैसी – उपकारी कै संपति जैसी
{nisi-tum ghun khadyot biraja – janu dum-bhinh kur mila samaja}
निसि तम घन खद्योत बिराजा – जनु दम्भिन्ह कर मिला समाजा
{maha-brishti chali phooti kiyareen, jimi sutantra bhaye big-ruhin naarin}
महाबृष्टि चलि फूटि कियारीं – जिमि सुतंत्र भएँ बिगरहिं नारीं
{krishi nirawahin chatur kisaana, jimi budh tajahin moah, mud, maana}
कृषी निरावहिं चतुर किसाना – जिमि बुध तजहिं मोह मद माना
{dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}
देखिअत चक्रबाक खग नाहीं – कलहि पाइ जिमि धर्म पराहीं
{ooshar barashai trin nahin jaama, jimi harijan hiyan upaja na kama}
ऊषर बरषइ तृन नहीं जामा – जिमि हरिजन हियँ उपज न कामा
{bibidh jantu sankul mahi bhraja, praja baadh jimi payee suraja}
बिबिध जंतु संकुल महि भ्राजा – प्रजा बाढ जिमि पाइ सुराजा
{jahan, tahan rahe pathik thaki nana, jimi indriya gun upjen gyana}
जहँ तहँ रहे पथिक थकि नाना – जिमि इंद्रिय गन उपजे ग्याना

{ka-ba-hun prabal bah maarut, juhn-tunh megh bilaaheen}
{jimi kapoot ke oopjen, kul sud-dharam nasaaheen}
कबहुँ प्रबल बह मारुत जहँ तहँ मेघ बिलाहिं
जिमि कपूत के ऊपजें कुल सद्धर्म नसाहिं
{kabahun diwas mahan nibir tum, kabahunk pragat patang}
{bin-sai up-jai gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}
कबहुँ दिवस महँ निबिड़ तम कबहुँक प्रगट पतंग
बिनसइ उपजइ ग्यान जिमि पाई कुसंग सुसंग

Re#63 Burpinder

Dear Burpinder,

Thanks for finally putting in a couple of comments – even though they had to be forced out of you with a virtual cattle prod.

You partly repeat what others have already stated and I have always agreed – that the structural requirements of rhyme impose limitations in a translation on how much flow from the original one could bring in. Also, please read the earlier interact to you regarding Tulsidas’ own estimation of his acumen as a poet – after all, this is simply a translation – not a poem on its own.

Your pre-conceived notions regarding what “belongs” and what does not belong in poetry are interesting. They run smack-dab headlong and self destruct into the other point that you so feebly attempt to bring up – that poetry should liberate and not shackle. A shackled mind – especially when shackled by pre-conceived notions and built-in prejudices that one may or may not be aware oneself – believe me, is a LOT worse off than lines of text could ever be! You need to free yourself from such prejudices and not indulge in stereotyping and wholesale generalizations – a troubling characteristic that you have demonstrated repeatedly all over the place.

You should also not “shudder” at individual words! Even though it may be a stereotype – sirdarjees are famous for their courage – take Kaura for example – who has taken countless bouts of licking at the hands of all and sundry – and like the proverbial sun, continues to shine! On the other hand, you who – for all one knows – might be the next Khushwant Singh in the making – at least in your own mind or perhaps in your own dreams (if only you could bring in a bit (or perhaps a lot more than a bit) of sex into your writings) – you flinch and shudder too easily at the prospect that your betters can gently (or not so gently) whip your posterior again and again – while you remain clueless on how to respond – slowly but surely inching up that wall – somewhat like a common household lizard, feeding on little flies and limited to a small domain!

I also notice that you utterly squealed “uncle” to my challenge of translating some of the beautiful lines from the Adi Granth by using that hackneyed and ludicrous cop-out excuse “I am not religious”. Let me bring to your attention that the latter is not a requirement for accomplishing that feat. Just the way M. F. Hussain does not have to be a Hindu to paint religious figures from the Hindu mythology – a true practitioner of the trade does not have to share the characteristics of its object. Even more troubling is your admission that you are “not comfortable” in discussing your beliefs with strangers – it implies that you are only comfortable discussing those with people who share the same thoughts as you – a red flag that you fear those beliefs would get challenged and the results may not come out to your liking. If YOU were sure – you would NOT be uncomfortable! I will try to look up the post that you mention and may have more comments on this later – if I consider it worthwhile.

I hope you enjoyed #61.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: Beej

``Yes Burp, I fully understand that you can count – you and another interactor have already demonstrated that level of sophistication. Now go ahead and prove to me and the rest of the crowds here that you can also READ – by commenting on the contents of those interacts – not to mention the subject piece itself!``

I will refrain from commenting on ther other interacts, but will gladly give you some inputs on your poem so that you do better in future. (yes yes I am arrogant, we`ve already established that).

The main problem I have with this piece is that it i so forced. There is no easy flow at all. Poetry should liberate, not shackle your imagination. Lines like these:

No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee

....make me shudder. ``Deadpan`` is not a word that belongs in a work that is claimed as having any literary merit. Then you have:

Loud thunder claps – thick cloudy sky
My heart all dread – darling not by

``Darling not by``???? Did I read that right, darling not by? It sounds like something a junior college student would do while writing a rose-day card (if you know what I mean). Surely Tulsidas did not ever imagine his work would be democratized (and I am being polite) to this extent.

Finally, about your suggestion....
``Better still, why don’t you go ahead and bring to us portions of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib – I am sure people here will be enriched by it – and it will also help many people, who probably do not think too much about such things – to develop a better understanding of the importance of this Book to the Sikh psyche – how it makes the Sikhs who they are – and in turn and consequently, it makes India the country that it is!``

I am not really religious, and in fact like many of my age and class, am not really comfortable discussing religion and beliefs with strangers. Since you are such an ardent follower of my posts, I am sure you`ve seen my one (and only) pro-Romair post on another board on this very point.

``Thank you, Burpinder!``
You`re quite welcome. Burp.

beej:

in billy crystal imitation mahvellous

The Visitation, Part-2

(Sounds from outside: Knock, knock!)

Beej (B): I thought I told you to stay away till Halloween.

(William Shakespeare walks in)

B: Goodness gracious, you are that Shakespeare guy, aren’t you?
Shakespeare (S): Let every eye negotiate for itself…
B: That’s all I need – old Shakes walking in – right in the middle of all this hassle…
S: What’s gone and what’s past help?
B: I am talking of this guy – a contemporary of yours, and quite a remarkable guy!
S: What a piece of work is man!
B: His name was Tulsidas.
S: What’s in a name? That which we call a rose…
B: I know! But Tulsidas ran into some bad luck. Abandoned by parents, and the whole nine yards…
S: The fault, dear B., is not in our stars…
B: Absolutely, he seemed to manage fine – and he was quite smart in fact ….
S: So wise so young, they say do never live long…
B: Actually, he lived to be ninety – longer than you, for sure! And things were moving quite well for him, until he got married…
S: Frailty, thy name is woman!
B: It really was not Ratnavati’s fault, you know – he just loved her TOO much!
S: Then must you speak...Of One that lov’d not wisely…
B: Well, things were sort of okay, until it became too much for her…
S: The course of true love never did run smooth…
B: You see, she got her brother to come over – kind of a trick she played on him…
S: Some Cupid kills with arrows, some with traps…
B: She had him go get the groceries – to feed the guest…
S: If music be the food of love, play on…
B: Apparently, the music was not enough. Anyway, when our man returned he was beside himself to find her gone….
S: How poor are they that have not patience!
B: He really went after her – to catch up with her and to get her back.
S: A horse! A horse!
B: A horse is not much use in a swollen river on a rainy night…
S: I have a kind of alacrity in sinking…
B: So did he. But he was driven – and so he took some serious risks.
S: Cowards die many times before their deaths…
B: Well, perhaps – but he made it to her window alive…
S: But, soft! What light through yonder window...
B: Actually, it was quite dark. But he made it inside too!
S: Journeys end in lovers meeting…
B: Well, not too well – she kind of let him have it! And his love turned into some kind of generic hate for women!
S: My only love sprung from my only hate!
B: Maybe his love for Lord Rama. But it did not work out too well for his wife.
S: Get thee to a nunn’ry…
B: In a manner of speaking, it did. Anyway, let’s fast forward four hundred years and let me take you to this great-looking web site.
S: All that glisters is not gold…
B: You are accurate on the “no gold” part. But there is more to it than that. This site has some mysterious stuff going on – suspicious characters lurking around – calling themselves editors!
S: Something is rotten in the state of Denmark…
B: That’s what people say – and the quality control process for publishing articles has been alleged to be highly arbitrary.
S: Though this be madness, yet there is method in’t…
B: Perhaps. But all kinds of accusations have been hurled around.
S: Is whispering nothing?
B: Some of that whispering is quite scandalous.
S: Done to death by slanderous tongue…
B: Not by every one – but perhaps by one or two interactors.
S: That man that hath a tongue, I say is no man…
B: The site is doing okay – but the number of nicks keeps rising like magic – even though only the same old people keep showing up.
S: Nothing can come of nothing…
B: Somehow, it seems to! It is difficult to believe that all those people really exist.
S: To be or not to be, that is the question...
B: Anyway, I decided to write stuff to translate some of Tulsidas’ stuff – even though translating it seemed tough to me.
S: Oft expectation fails, and most oft there…
B: Exactly, especially since I am no poet myself.
S: The man that hath no music in himself…
B: Well, I decided to take a chance.
S: O, what men dare do!
B: Even though it would be looked at by some REAL smart cookies.
S: Be not afraid of greatness…
B: I figured – what the heck – let me try.
S: We are such stuff... As dreams are made on…
B: Well, what if it worked!
S: Why, then the world’s mine oyster…
B: Perhaps not. Actually some of the people here are quite tame, even though they are considered viscous, I tell you.
S: He’s mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf…
B: Anyway, I wrote it – taking liberties here and there to get a rhyme – although there were problems.
S: Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie…
B: Exactly, but the readers were not giving feedback...
S: Now is the winter of our discontent…
B: Not even discontent. Just mum! Except one who did have some quibbles.
S: The lady doth protest too much, methinks…
B: I think she did quite well. Anyway, I believe I addressed her issues…
S: Was ever woman in this humour woo’d?
B: Of course. The problem was with some other interactors – the bean-counters, so to speak.
S: O, beware, my lord of jealousy…
B: One, in particular, kept coming back with smartypant remarks!
S: Off with his head!
B: That is difficult now-a-days. But I understand how you feel that way.
S: O villain, villain, smiling, damned villain!
B: Yes. But the real problem was the apathy of individuals whose works I had been taking so much interest in – and who kept away!
S: This was the unkindest cut of all…
B: Absolutely, a pretty bleak scene.
S: This thing of darkness…
B: I tell you, it felt lousy – all abandoned.
S: When beggars die there are no comets seen…
B: No comets at all! Absolutely none! What to do now?
S: Asses are made to bear, and so are you…
B: For how long?
S: Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow...
B: Until I turn into…
S: How now? A rat? Dead, for a ducat, dead!
B: And here I was gloating on making it to FP.
S: Lord, what fools these mortals be!
B: Thanks for messing up my evening. Are you happy now?
S: Now go we in content …
B: Good night!
S: Good night, good night! Parting is such sweet...
B: Good grief! Now where did I put that broom!

(Shakespeare, sensing impending violence, darts out of the doorway)

Re#58 by miriamk

Dear Ma’m,

I am very appreciative of your taking the time to visit this page. As a debut (and for all I know – perhaps as a flash in the pan (let me be honest here!)) the moral support is important and I very much value it! Thanks a lot and again, it is truly appreciated!

You are probably right about the rhyme – loosening it would enable a larger pool of words to choose from and therefore perhaps a more appropriate and nuanced selection of words and sentences. Lay people like this interactor are clearly more comfortable with the janitorial efforts associated with rhyming rather than focusing strictly on the message – and giving it a song-like flow – which is much more difficult, like Mr. Madani pointed out. This is even more complex if one wishes to avoid bringing in several words whose understanding is kind of taken for granted in the original but which are much more difficult to communicate in janitorial English terms – for example, words like birati, maya, khal, kul-sad-dharma are all concepts that are more easily understood in my own mind than explained through an analogous word in English. I am absolutely sure it is fully do-able – the only limitation being my own prowess and the available time – and it`s the same way perhaps for others, too – that’s probably the reason I am unable to find stuff of this nature on the web. I usually try to look for the simplest words which can capture the spirit (or at least a big chunk of that spirit).

I wish you all the best.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re#55 Ahmedmadani

Dear Mr. Madani,

I am glad you liked the translation. As for me, I liked the translating. And just in case there are any doubts about it, I am not a poet – some have even accused me of being a janitor – others have accused me of being various other things which they see in their nightmares!

My reference to “kafir sensing” missiles was from a previous interact of yours and I am very much sure that you had used it in jest. I agree that terms like “kafir” and “Paki” are derogatory and should not be used by decent people – there is nothing funny about such terms! I have made analogous statements elsewhere.

I understand your point about comments/interacts taking a life of their own and diverging from the topic at hand – at times becoming a wrestling match – there are a lot of mud wrestlers around here. On this board, I have tried to keep the focus on the subject topic by staying more engaged than many authors who usually just like to watch and have fun while they sit on their posteriors – talk about lazy bums – and I have continued to talk about Tulsidas – perhaps more than suits the tastes of the usual culprits – the mud-wallowers!

Thanks for the information regarding those distinguished singers of yore! I understand what you say about using the term “exclusive” in a positive sense.

All the best to you.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Beej:

Beej on the fp?!! (thumbs up wala icon). Good to see you here.

Khair…on to the subject at hand. I confess my complete ignorance of the Ramcharitmanas. But from your interacts (especially those to ahmedmadani and kaal ji), it`s evident this was an enriching experience for you. That alone can be important and inspirational. The significance of the classics in any language or culture can’t be overstated. So, I’m glad you decided to take the time to translate and bring this to chowk readers.

A comment about rhyme scheme since it has been brought up. I’m just wondering in cases of translation; would it be more important to retain the rhyme or instead sacrifice some of it to retain the essential spirit of the original text.

(Mr. Ahmedmadani, please hold on a bit while I talk for a minute with this person.)

Re#56 Burpinder

[Talk about post-whoring, some 28 of these 56 posts have been by Beej himself! Must be a new record on chowk. Congrats.]

Yes Burp, I fully understand that you can count – you and another interactor have already demonstrated that level of sophistication. Now go ahead and prove to me and the rest of the crowds here that you can also READ – by commenting on the contents of those interacts – not to mention the subject piece itself!

Better still, why don’t you go ahead and bring to us portions of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib – I am sure people here will be enriched by it – and it will also help many people, who probably do not think too much about such things – to develop a better understanding of the importance of this Book to the Sikh psyche – how it makes the Sikhs who they are – and in turn and consequently, it makes India the country that it is!

For example, why don’t you start with the following beautiful lines from the Raag Gauree:

This mind listens to the Vedas, the Puraanas, and the ways of the Holy Saints, but it does not sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, for even an instant.

Having obtained this human body, so very difficult to obtain, it is now being uselessly wasted. Emotional attachment to Maya is such a treacherous wilderness, and yet, people are in love with it.

Inwardly and outwardly, God is always with them, and yet, they do not enshrine Love for Him. O Nanak, know that those whose hearts are filled with the Lord are liberated.

O mother, if only someone would instruct my wayward mind.

Holy Saadhus: rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord.

Greed, emotional attachment to Maya, possessiveness, the service of evil, pleasure and pain - those who are not touched by these, are the very embodiment of the Divine Lord.

Heaven and hell, ambrosial nectar and poison, gold and copper - these are all alike to them. Praise and slander are all the same to them, as are greed and attachment.

They are not bound by pleasure and pain - know that they are truly wise. O Nanak, recognize those mortal beings as liberated, who live this way of life.

O mind, why have you gone crazy? Don`t you know that your life is decreasing, day and night? Your life is made worthless with greed.

That body, which you believe to be your own, and your beautiful home and spouse - none of these is yours to keep. See this, reflect upon it and understand.

You have wasted the precious jewel of this human life; you do not know the Way of the Lord of the Universe. You have not been absorbed in the Lord`s Feet, even for an instant. Your life has passed away in vain!

Says Nanak, that man is happy, who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord`s Name. All the rest of the world is enticed by Maya; they do not obtain the state of fearless dignity.

You people are unconscious; you should be afraid of sin. Seek the Sanctuary of the Lord, Merciful to the meek, Destroyer of all fear.

The Vedas and the Puraanas sing His Praises; enshrine His Name within your heart. Pure and sublime is the Name of the Lord in the world. Remembering it in meditation, all sinful mistakes shall be washed away.

You shall not obtain this human body again; make the effort - try to achieve liberation! Says Nanak, sing of the Lord of compassion, and cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

Thank you, Burpinder!

Talk about post-whoring, some 28 of these 56 posts have been by Beej himself! Must be a new record on chowk. Congrats.

DM is right about ``Geet gopal``. Recently I am not in best mental health and do make mistakes and blunders about simple things. Due to that I do feel happy.

Mr. Beej your translation is fine in fact you have done best as a professional not in field of such things. I liked the translation. My remark was about the general words disposed as poem with out any form and no possibility of humming.( Any father with marriagible daughter when hear some young boy makes poem is alarm). Poem is most difficult artform as its synthesis of imagination, construction and spiritual distillation.

Some verse can be as beautiful as poems ( I mean compared real poems)

I used to use Kaffir or Kufr but after thinking refrain from useing at all though it may have slipped and may be used as little pun, joke or humor. Similary people useing ``Paki`` word is not good its is not fun but derogatory. Even English Judge recently warned not to use such term or will be considerd as hateful speech.

About comment regarding is content is funny thing. Most times comments are better than main article and as number of comments pile up the content diverges exponentionally and no sane person can estimate from last 20 comments what can be article about as there is no logic after 20 comments.

Some comment by few chosen people are same on any topic and its lots raw heat of Lahore and humidity of Karachi and no fire or light.

There are some people who just love starting some explosion and some people like YLH get in chain reaction and many just like watching chain reaction and predicting well path bitten answers. Its like flow chart and goes in infinite loops. It appears topics of Jinnah and Feudalism is like enreached Urenium to start chain reaction.

I do not know much about music scene as have not ventured outside home for few years due to anxity problems. I like Kirana style best for they know how to take tans and they are so melodious they are not so sofesticated snobs regarding purity of notes like Jaypur group also like second most group of Gwalior singing as they are so beautiful in flow Jaypur are best in Purity of notes and its worth listening to them at same time tanpura and how they move together. I like Ustad Abdul Karim Khan the best. ( Mr. Harimao mentioned a site south asia women/ music repository- It has excellent treasures like rare recordings like Abdul Karim in Khayal. Other source is Musicindiaonline.) There is group of Kirana singers in Karachi and Ustad teaches. Obviously the quality is not good as they do not have financial support and do full time jobs. They do for love of Kirana singing. Abdul Wahid khan migrated to Lahore in 1947 but he died very soon in Lahore. Due to trailblazing singing of Abdul Karim Khan his cousin ( Wahid Khan) never got much recognization. Luckly I like all singers of all Gayakis who sing well.

Cultured person or culture is problem as some feel the exclusiveness. This is real problem and numbers win . Barbarians always win in long term. ( Is just no good for nothing and averaging is more meritted, to be exclusive means to be better is kind of crime as you are then snob and not part of Awam and masses are asses)

Thanks for noting once I mentioned beautiful things in simple mathematics . Its like painting there are impressionist artists and expressionist artists in mathematics both concentrate it make you think about abstract things and normal day to day things at same time. Some are straight forward ways and some are artistic ways. So difficult , so simple and subtle way things are resolved, like art look easy but difficult to make such thing.

good luck everybody. Have good October.

#53 Kaalchakra

Thanks Kaal,

Okay, finally you are off the hook!

Thanks for the positive reaction.

The absolute truth is I felt I was rewarded by the act of doing it – I really do. It has been one of the most beautiful feelings I have ever felt in my life – when I was working on this little piece – perhaps what people call a “high”– except it was from the inside!

I fully agree about this Book being one of the most exquisitely written and lovely texts. Also, the reality (or my personal reality) is one does not have to know a lot about the background of the author to enjoy this Book.

It is just mind-boggling that something that took only a little over two years to write continues to command the level of popularity that it does now – over four hundred years later – Tulsi has a way of “connecting” with his masses at the most basic level – nobody ever had to push this book to its readers – and perhaps never will have to!

I recommend “picking it up” more often – I certainly try to.

[We sometimes don’t appreciate the full import of the Mahakavi’s decision to simplify the message, the characters, the plot, and the language of a beloved ancient story. He brought it down to a level that we in the villages could understand it, could identify with it, and could love it with all our heart.]
Absolutely! As far as its past importance is concerned, I remember reading somewhere that but for Tulsidas and Ramcharitmanas – and this is for the information of our Muslim friends – India WOULD have become almost fully Islamized perhaps under the Moghul empire, but apparently this work helped Hindus develop a unified identity rather than a bunch of separate Hindu sects – keeping Hinduism around and viable.

[What was that they say about Surdas and Tulsidas, “Sur soor tulsi sashi?”]
It goes
{Sur soor, Tulsi shashi – wood-gun Keshav Das}
{Anya kavi khadyot sum – it-ut karahin prakash}
The meaning is easy enough to guess – Surdas is like the sun (lighting up the day), Tulsi is like the moon (lighting up the night), the poet Keshav Das is like those blinking stars, and the rest of the poets are like lightning-bugs – those illuminating dots here and there.

I quote the following interesting extracts from the Poet-Seers web site:

“Tulasi is so magnificent in telling the episodes, whether it is Bharata’s lamentation on arrival at Ayodhaya, kaikeyi in the chamber, or the conversation of Narada and Rama, that it is extremely moving and coherent. Tulasi is so passionately devoted to Lord Rama that by the sheer liveliness of his poetic imagination, he brings into life Rama, not as a son of Dasartha but as a qualified incarnation of Vishnu and also as Brahman itself. Yes, the same Brahman which the vedas and upanishads struggle to define and comprehend and resort to negativity as ‘neti neti’ (not this, not this). The basic religious principle of Tulasi can be found in the Uttarakanda of the Manas in the dialogue between Garuda and Bhushundi. As Tulasi points out, the name Rama means ‘like a sun who dispels the darkness of ignorance.’ Tulasi’s Rama is thus Satchitananda. He is the all prevading Brahman and as Shiva says ‘the story of Rama is an axe which fells the tree of Kaliyuga.’

Though bhakti in all its glory, it is also advaitic. Often, he lets debates and long verses interrupt the storyline to pour a whole philosophy of advaita. However, neither the intregity or the unity of the story is ever lost….. When the senses are controlled, discrimination is cultivated. With discrimination, the essence of real and unreal is ascertained and with this and the Grace of Rama itself -mukti is obtained. Tulasi stresses the importance of loss of the individual in attaining the supreme state of bliss.

Some scholars have noted that Tulasidas is Kalidas of Hindi literature. Actually, he is much more. Kalidas was a great sanskrit poet, and there is no doubt of that, but he did not spread a social and bhakti movement. Whether it is in usage of rasa, similes or metaphors, Tulasidas parellels and even exceeds the versatality of Kalidas. Another issue is the use of various chandas (meters). Kalidas is a deft poet who in his Raghuvamsha literally plays with the language. Tulasi is not far behind, he also uses many meters including anushtubh, totaka, vamshastha, to name a few.

Tulasi, as many who preceded him like Abhinavagupta, holds that rasa is the main characteristic of a kavya. Among the many rasa (sentiments), the common ones are love (rati), grief (shoka), hasya (humor), krodha (anger), utasha (energy), bhaya (fear). He brings out the beauty of love when Rama and Sita meet in the garden of Janaka, the grief in the separation of Rama from Sita, the energy when Rama encounters the demons, the anger in Kaikeyi, the fear when describing the evil spirits. These are just a small sample of the various rasa-s described by Tulasi.

Next is the use of similes. Rama’s wedding, according to Tulasi, is in spring; his departure to the forest is in the heat of summer; a blessing to the gods is in the rainy season (indicating showering); the rule of Rama in the season of pleasantness - autumn; the character of Bharata is that of coolness (equanimity) etc. Even the constant repetitions of certain phrases like ‘lotus feet’, ‘streaming eyes’, ‘quivering frame’ etc have their use. Tulasi’s ramayana is not meant for recitation or debating but for reading and rereading. It is an epic which moves the reader so much that one is marvelled by the skill of Tulasidas. He, not only provides hope and security in the midst of an ever-changing world, but also provides a sanctuary of love and peace. Tulasi shines like a lamp of divine guidance and by the light generated by Manasa dispels the ignorance into knowledge and wisdom.

Tulasidas was not writing a biography of Rama, but expressing a love towards Lord Rama in his work.”

Beej

I know very little about RamCharit Manas except that it is one of the most exquisitely written texts ever, and certainly the loveliest that I have seen. That everytime I have picked it up, its dohas, its chhands, and its chaupais have never failed to amaze and inspire me. That it`s incomprehensible how one person could be so gifted.

What was that they say about Surdas and Tulsidas, ``Sur soor tulsi sashi?``

We sometimes don`t appreciate the full import of the Mahakavi`s decision to simplify the message, the characters, the plot, and the language of a beloved ancient story. He brought it down to a level that we in the villages could understand it, could identify with it, and could love it with all our heart.

You undertook a difficult challenge and did a commendable job.

Re#43 by Ahmedmadani (additional thoughts)

And here are a couple of things that I somehow missed.

I agree with the statement that you make regarding the importance of rhyme in poetry and the compromises that sometimes need to be accepted (the “acceptable loss”). I had to work real hard to come up with whatever rhyme I did come up with – it was not 100 percent satisfactory – but optimized – from my viewpoint. As I told another interactor – there is a lot of hard work, perhaps drudgery, associated with poetry – somewhat similar to a well-coded piece of computer software which needs to appear to the user the easiest thing under the sky – without any need to know about the millions of lines of code that had to be crafted. And of course the reader needs to be able to understand the little things and the fine things – although the term “cultured” can be misused in a selective, subjective, and exclusionary manner.

Regarding the loss of classics, one POSITIVE advantage of the computer revolution is that a lot more of the past information, including classics and other creative works can be digitized and archived and perhaps made available on-line for future generations – to those who seek it. In that sense, some of that good stuff will never be “lost”!

An internet infrastructure revolution in the Indian subcontinent can bring about magic in there – magic a little like the telecommunications revolution has already brought, but on a much larger scale and touching every aspect of life – magic that we can at this time only imagine – and the resources for so long denied to its creative minds – and especially its young creative minds.

We live in interesting times indeed, but it is within our power to make them GOOD interesting times!

Re#43 by ahmedmadani

Dear Mr. Madani,

You are such a sweetheart – I am so glad you decided to land here – a lot healthier than any “kafir sensing” missiles landing – though some can make the argument that some of your witty lines have the same potency as those Pakistani missiles – I am sure you are fully capable of spelling DUD! (Just kidding, I am very fond of individuals who can pull witty lines and punches left, right, top, bottom, up, down, any which way – sometimes I try to do those myself – unfortunately the recipients do not usually demonstrate the same level of reciprocation – at least not according to what they tell their medical doctors (you know, broken bones and all) at the time.) And while I am discussing other interactors, I must express my appreciation for what I consider the freshness of your interacts – which, alas, had not previously received from me the level of attention that they deserved.

By the way, I think you guys should attempt to come up with some better terms than “kafir” to refer to all Hindus – for one thing, your term does not distinguish between South Asians and other Hindus – or even Europeans – secondly, it reinforces a stereotype of the kafir built for nefarious reasons a long time ago by individuals who were not as intellectually evolved as yourself – secondly, as you already know it is always utter lunacy to lump any one group of individuals together – as perhaps many westerners have been recently doing to your countrymen and to your coreligionists.

I enjoyed your detailed descriptions from the past. The vividness of some of those details is astonishing – considering (based on your interacts) that you are closing in on what many people unkindly call the senile sixty-seventy range – I do not believe that adjective, of course, keeping in mind that in the U.S.A., many individuals take their nuptial vows at that time in life.

I am also very impressed by the great diversity in your areas of knowledge – let me produce just ONE old example –

From the board “The Virgin Bride” on August 11, 2001
Nasifa Haji Sahiba.....respective madam you have sinned by spreadig garbage.if u fil u become celebraty by riting sex stories you are total wrong.Now sexpicturesbooks and videoxxx is available everywhere. Lot hot stuf coming from urope and america. 2800Rs you get casset with real beatiful all white girls and boys. Now its busyness in food eating place.is spread u want ppl to have sex before married, they are having too much is problom.Old men go in little romms and watch sex movies while drinking tea its too comon. :)

But I digress!

The Book from which this article/translation derives is the Ramcharitmanas. I am not an expert on this Book or things of that nature (and my understanding of music approaches the absolute zero) – I just enjoy it. I am ashamed to admit that I have not read Kalidasa – in my part of Bihar, we had a shortage of libraries – it’s my understanding that things have not changed much, since the present day rulers firmly believe that the general population has little need for such luxuries and that it is highly supercilious (not to mention impractical) to ponder proses of classics while rocking back and forth delicately balanced on top of that buffalo grazing its pasture. (Now that you mention it – it is entirely possible that the local librarian was keeping that copy of Kalidasa all for himself – probably for its erotic value!)

I wish you good luck in locating English translation of the Ramcharitmanas on the internet – I was not very successful myself, but new stuff is coming up all the time. I agree with your observation on the Ramayana except I would not call (entirely by mistake, I am sure) the metaphors “pathetic” like you do, or the birds “gay” in the sense that term is presently used. As far as the variety of paces contained in the Ramacharitmanas is concerned it was summarized in a quotation from a foreign author toward the end of my interact #27.

Perhaps Ms. Sadna and you could conduct discussions over this, since both of you have read the Valmiki Ramayan – and I have not.

I tried to provide a few details from the life of Tulsidas in a few of my interacts (e.g., #25, #29, etc.) and included a couple of links to more detailed biographies (in #25).

I understand the concern that you express regarding the classics disappearing from the scene from the subcontinent. I see it already happening in the second generation of Indian Americans here. I doubt that the “inferiority complex” has much to do with it – if anything, based on what I see around me, the present generation of Indian Americans (and I am sure the same is true of the Pakistani crowds and others, and also both outside and inside India) is much more sure-footed and comfortable with its identity than its parent generation – perhaps because they were brought up in a different educational system and are not hostage to the past. But the available time-frame has stayed the same and other demands on that time have come up. Also, sometimes I do feel that although it is very beautiful indeed – our cultural heritage – it imposes a lot of never-ending taxes on our whole thought process and stifles curiosity and innovation like poison – for example, the unquestioned reverence based on age – without any considerations of how the time associated with that age was actually spent – comes to mind and then I wonder – have we REALLY traveled that far from the days of the Tulsidas?? In my mind, there are pluses and minuses to that heritage we carry with us everywhere – and the net benefit of course would depend on a wise selection of what we keep and what we throw away – we DO need to throw away a few things otherwise we will stay exactly where we remain – stuck!

I am glad you enjoyed the translation! It makes me feel good. All the best to you!

#49 Hindvi

Dear Sir, do you have anything of value to add to these discussions from your own considerable repertoire, or are going to limit your comments to the unsurpassable buttering up of other individuals only?!

These spaces are not closed to you, you know, and in spite of any morbid fears that you may harbor - you are unlikely to get bit (at least at the present time)!

Ahmed Madani

You have a poet`s soul and a philosopher`s eye. I never thanked you for your exposition of the austere beauty of mathematics. You are a most eclectic man.

BeeJ:

Yes, I am peeking in and enjoying the interactions of others, esp. sadna`s. I also believe that it is better to stay quiet when one doesn`t have anything useful to contribute.

Now, go ahead and shout chicken as many times as it takes to make you feel better. Being a chicken, of course I wouldn`t respond.

BTW, I am an old admirer of Madani saheb. He and I go back a long way on chowk and we have also exchanged emails off-chowk.

Re#45 Kaalchakra

Re#44 Dost-Mittar Jee

As the “moderator” of this board – I hope I don’t get affected by the term – since I am not necessarily a believer in moderation – I request you to cease and desist from taking the cheapest of the cheapest of the cheapest shots at the sweetest of the sweetest of the sweetest of interactors who happen – on the rarest of the rarest of the rarest occasions – to grace MY board.

Mr. Ahmedmadani has at least made an attempt to comment on the contents of the article. I am currently carefully reviewing his reasonably well-detailed interact in order to be able to respond to it.

I would have expected that since the two of you are indeed – peeking in – as the term goes – would have something substantial and meaningful to contribute of your own!

Therefore, show me what you got – or forever be ready to be addressed as a chicken! And start getting ready to undergo the fate that befells such creatures – in just a matter of time! (If you don’t know what I am talking about – go check the Gillster board!)

Yes, you heard me! CHICKEN! Yeah!

Mr. Ahmedmadani, please do not get dissuaded by such troublemaker individuals – please bear with me while I carefully study your interact in order to design a suitable response. Thank you.

madani sahab:
that was pretty awesome write-up !..
do you know if rainbow center would have classical raag/malhaar recordings on audio CDs.? (i.e. if you are in karachi)

thanks.

If ahmadmadani is a Pakistani, then he shouldn`t be allowed to know about Indian classics as much as he does. He surely gives us all a tremendous complex.

ahmadmadani:

``Other epic poem from India I enoy is ``Geet Gopal`` one of sweet poetry written by Mr. Jaydeo and have copy of it as indian classic.``

I think that you are referring to ``Geet Govinda``.

BTW, I have now officially joined the club of sceptics who think that you are an Indian wearing a Pakistani naqaab. :-)

Re: # 33
Thanks Mr. Beej to give us some feeling some glimpses of Tulasi Ram Charitra.
First I do not have great knowledge about old Indian classics only read English translation and enjoy those old treaties.

Some times accidents change things and you find things you like. When I was doing my B.A. in Karachi in 65 , being biblographic the Univ. Libraian was friend of my maternal uncle( MU). ( I did not complete BA , physical ailments, premonation of future depression ? ) They decided then junk old unused and no demand Indian classic books as a policy. He told me I can have all those books , you can carry by lorry. I told him will get few and I asked him to give me about 100 books ( all english translation) and will try to read when time permitting. He suggested and my maternal uncle`s friend with car ( at that time only ``real rich`` people had car) helped me to transport. That way I was introduced to indian classics.

Secondly gift for life due to my maternal uncle was appreciation of Indian classical music. Karachi Engg College was full of Hindu Marathi Professors. As things changed all left for Bombay. MU was working engg and was scholarly engineer and always kept contact with teachers/ Prof Deodhar, Chipulnkar... can remember much time washes all. These were very cultured people and had good Records of 3 minutes and large upto 7 minutes. It was not possible to carry them back they gave all to my MU. HE introduced me to Classical music and have still records of Artits like Abdul Karimkhan, Hirabai Barodekar, Sureshbabu mane, Abdul Wahid Khan, Many marathi drama songs...)

About Shiv and his making ashes of Madan the companion of Rati. One the best classics of Kalidas `` KumarSambhava`` is story of that. How Madan tried to break the attention of lord Shiva. I always felt that is best work of Kalidas speciallly never read any such romantic or even erotic poetry written in world. ( Kumar Sambhava, Meghdoot, Raghuvansha, Shankuntal and Malvikagni- Mitra- last is not great , all others are according to me.) Incidently Kalidas always refers in poetry to surrounding landmass, mountains, rivers, waterbodies, animals and flora and that is wonderful. He is Impressed ny natural things, like in his epic Meghdoota he starts with `` Ashad ( Vernacular Punjabi month is almost exact version it appears) Months first day ( clouds have started moving, what a height of imagination and romace of idea of sending his beloved a message via clouds) or in Raghuvansha Rama refers to Lanka as evergreen golden Lanka and tells his brother the appreciation of that place and he exclaims still I want to go back as mother and motherland is more dear to me than heaven.
Unfortunately I have no copy of Tulsiram`s Ramcharitra. I will try to find and read translation by internet if in english. Translation is tricky part some times orginality is lost but with apprecative and imaginative mind one can enjoy most classics.

Other epic poem from India I enoy is ``Geet Gopal`` one of sweet poetry written by Mr. Jaydeo and have copy of it as indian classic.

Now returning to story of Ramayana. Ramayana is moral science while mahabharata is social science both complex and with its pathetic metaphors. Ramayana`s start is most serene, sad and solemn. Any person with little heart and appreciation can feel the beginning of epic. Courting gay birds and hunter takes aim and Sage Valmiki comes out of meditation and shouts please do not send arrow and arrow has left and stikes bird and the companion bird screams and dives to see at gone bird and then screams. Sage Valmiki is touched by Pathos and starts the story. Never has seen by eye such start so dramatic and so evocative. ( Second epic is also same way a Mighty warrier Arjuna on way to war front looses his heart and goes in depressiona nd story starts...)

At onset of Ramayana there are hints of privations of moral man his suffereing even moral Rama suffers , a devoted son, devoted husband, moral man, moral king has to suffer like all mortals. King Bhavbhooti wrote a famous classics `` Uttar RamCharitra``.

Tulsidas made great service to society by bringing the moral story in simple language of hindi and made available to masses so they can sing enjoy and imbibe the essense of life of Rama as most people would not have understood sanskrut language treates of Ramayana.

I have read a story of Tulidas . It is said he was in love and wanted to see his beloved. There was flood in Jamuna ( or Ganges?) and did not know swimming. The power of love was so overwhelming he jumped in water and got hold of dead floating human body and used as a floating device to reach destination ?

I now a days fear soon classics from India will be lost as inferiority complex and general downward trend towards finding common acceptable marketable ``manufactured`` products will dominate as world is becoming technical and domination of English and derivative effects and integration. I have not seen movie or TV for decades may be due to physical ailments but I can read and classics give me pleasure. Art of poetry is lost as there is no rhythum. Some loss of rhythum is acceptable even Shakespear uses free verse or in 1930s Bengali Mr. Micheal Madhusudan Dutta started ``Mukta Chhanda`` for writing poetry. Now a days most poetry is not poerty but some lazy writers writing lines with no rules. They can use straight writing composition. While some times verse is written as poetry, like in KingLear which cathes ear. Appreciation is not easy and slowly going away and there is eternal problem of to enjoy culture one should be cultured.

Again thanks for translation of lines from Tulsidas, enjoyed.

good luck everybody

#41 Temporal

Thank you T-bhai, for resurrecting “your” CC! No need for maazrat – I think Tulsidas has no choice but to forgive you for her intrusion – he died in the year 1623. :)

I am duly impressed by your wily and skillful navigation through the choppy waters of the women’s treatment issues that I helped Sadna guide through – which she perhaps did not really ask to be guided through. You, on the other hand, masterfully SKIRTED it – claiming (or perhaps feigning) ignorance on the subject of this article – all that touting of that totem pole notwithstanding!

T-Bhai, you are a rare commodity – you admitted ignorance of an item in this vast multitude of chowk crowds – consisting of those tummy-turning termagants and their treacherous tricksters – writhing in the everlasting joy of imposing everlasting agonies on each other – when they could have been HERE, writhing in agonies imposed at a closer range by THIS writer – oh well!

I guess I have no choice but to seek each one of those LOST souls on an individual basis and provide them with the much-needed enlightenment – which the dear Tulsidas missed by about four hundred years – on a one-to-one basis!

Thanks again – and sincerely,
Beej.

tulisdas say maazrat kay saath! beej sahib ki khidmat maiN

cc: why don’t u answer ur phone?
t: my phone?
cc: (rolling eyes – must be one of those days)
t: (she knows i dislike answering phones)
cc: i forget your unflinching support for the voice mail
t: achcha baitabi kis baat ki thee?
cc: am forever in a hurry yaar...there is only so much time allotted…
t: (tapping fingers on the desk)
cc: …what’s up with this beej fellow?
t: nothing…probably bored
cc: why is he taking aims at me?
t: he is?…i thought he just admired you
cc: aha, so i have another closet admirer
t: (these women!)
cc: i am beginning to like him
t: (more tapping)
cc: achcha maiN chalti hoon: don’t reply to your fan club;)
t: i don’t…they love me for it:)
cc: you know they are all ok
t: yeah i know, it is me!
cc: arey bura kyun maan rahay ho
t: stating the obvious
cc: (bura maan ga’aye) bye
t: kh

there is a bit more on the i-log

#38 Sadna

I understand and agree with what you say here.
Also, you are welcome.
And Thanks again.

#39 Arstoo

Thanks for that tip on the devotional music cassette. I will look into it. I did not find too much detailed/specific information on the Gundecha Brothers web site – if you have such information, please provide. (The closest thing I see is a CD/cassette of “Morning Chants – Sri Rama”.)

I will try to look up the lines “Shyam gaur kim jai…” you brought up, to understand its context – it DOES appear to have a familiar ring – “Shyam gaur” is a favorite term of Tulsidas to describe the pair – Rama and Laxmana, and seems to occur repeatedly throughout the Book – in several chapters. Once I understand the context, I may be in a better position to answer your query. I am also unfamiliar with the Rajinder Krishan song you mention – does it have the same context – I’ll try to look into it.

Hi Beej

Do you know that Gundecha Brothers have part of this ver well. If you don`t know than try buying the Music Today cassettes of India Today magazine.

Can you please transalate

Syam gaur kim jai bakhani
Gira anain nain bin baani.

I think the bollywood song writer Rajinder Krishan tried it in one of his song

Tujh ko dekha hai meri nazron ne
Teri tareef ho magar kaisay
Ke banay ye zuban nazar kaisay
Ke banay ye nazar zuban kaisay

But Tulsidas`s version is orginal and more sweet.

Beej#37

``I sometimes wonder if there are some underlying connections between the mythologies!``

I couldn`t say, but I wouldn`t be surprised.

``one must take the fact you describe and posit it against the background of what was being EXPECTED of her! As has been amply elaborated by the women libbers and the like, too often we try to make divine heroes out of simple REAL people``

No need to make them divine heros. People are depicted doing things for love everyday in literature, TV and in movies, why not in the Ramayana? It is a source of wonder to me why Sita is considered submissive and beleagured when from the text it seems she was anything but.


``Consider her upbringing, her conditioning and training from childhood – the reflexes tuned to the task of turning topsy-turvy at the slightest twist of the tongue – that famous or perhaps infamous line – “loag kya kahenge!” Yes, she perhaps DID love Rama and perhaps DID insist on going with him when he was banished – but what would have been her fate had she NOT gone – just think of Urmila``

In a way you are right. A wife, once defined as `ardhangini` or half-partaker of everything, could then be expected to insist on being such. But it doesn`t seem(to me) from either text that Sita was not offered real alternatives to going with Rama. In Valmiki, Rama and Sita spend 3-4 chapters arguing about it.


Thanks for your expansive replies- I enjoyed reading them. I am glad that you took my `quibbles` the right way. It is interesting to hear informed povs on this subject matter- so many thanks for that too.

Re#33 by sadna

Once again, I must thank you, especially since I finished the answer to your previous question in only two parts, whereas I had made slots for three parts. So here goes.

[To my knowledge, no ladies were burnt to ashes with Shiva`s third eye. He burnt to ashes the male God of Love Manmatha? who shot an arrow at Shiva to get him interested in Parvati.]
You are absolutely right, ma’m! But of course! Clearly, your grasp and understanding of the god of love is FAR superior to that of this interactor! By the way, I have always wondered about the similarity between Cupid and Manmatha – and the fact that they both carry bow and arrows! I sometimes wonder if there are some underlying connections between the mythologies! Perhaps NHK (Another one of those “choohas” who is too timid to stick his head in here, alas, if only they were less intimidated! Oh well!) could enlighten us regarding the origin of some of those figures and lores.

[…Sita did a lot of stuff because she wanted to. In both Valmiki and Tulsi, everybody concerned including Rama tried to persuade Sita not to accompany him into the forest. It was she who insisted on going.]
Alas, I must beg to differ with you on this issue – one must take the fact you describe and posit it against the background of what was being EXPECTED of her! As has been amply elaborated by the women libbers and the like, too often we try to make divine heroes out of simple REAL people – conveniently forgetting that such people are also as Ratnavati so eloquently put to Tulsidas – not much more than just another “bag of bones and flesh” – they live and breathe and eat and defecate and have mood swings and have good days and have bad days and full days and empty days and days that end too quickly and days that do not seem to end and their moments of strength and last, but perhaps the most important, their moments of weaknesses. Sure Sita had a choice, but did she have one for practical purposes? Consider her upbringing, her conditioning and training from childhood – the reflexes tuned to the task of turning topsy-turvy at the slightest twist of the tongue – that famous or perhaps infamous line – “loag kya kahenge!” Yes, she perhaps DID love Rama and perhaps DID insist on going with him when he was banished – but what would have been her fate had she NOT gone – just think of Urmila (hint: Urmila WHO?)

[Finally, in the (Valmiki) episode of Sita`s banishment when she was pregnant, when years later Rama was reunited with his sons and he went to fetch her back - she refused to go back with him and preferred to return to ‘Mother Earth’ instead. That is an unmistakable indictment of the male, or no?]
Absolutely, I agree! Perhaps for the first and ONLY time in her life that Sita indeed have a CHOICE, sans pressures of any kind, peer pressure included – and look what her choice was! Oh well!

Q.: How many Ramayanas are there exactly?
A.: There are over 300 traditional versions and I’ve read (in English translation) more than 200, not counting the hundreds of oral narratives.

Q.: Are there any patterns discernible in these ‘types’?
A.: I think there are two strands visible—Ramayanas which deal with happiness in union and those which deal with the sorrow of separation.

Q.: That sounds like the emotional dynamics of classical dance—the counter- pull between vipralamba (separation) and sambhoga (union).
A.: Exactly. Sita’s either banished or there’s a mangalam ending. There are more Ramayanas that favour a happy ending, in fact, as many know, there’s this theory that the Uttara Kandam (Agnipariksha) was added later. But sadness is truer to life, perhaps? Ram is never happy after Sita’s banishment.





http://www.hvk.org/articles/1002/180.html

Re#32 by temporal

T-Bhai, first of all, I hope I did not get your dander up by repeatedly bringing up that reference to the “totem pole” – there was no intent whatsoever at conducting impaling of ANY variety – just having some clean fun!

At least SOMEBODY around here has a sense of my kind of funny!

Though sometimes I worry a bit about you – ever since I violated YOUR CC by creating another CC (Chowk Censor) – your CC has disappeared like those proverbial donkey horns! Please do not throw that totem pole away in the same way! (Or come to think of it, was it perhaps because after developing a feel for the considerable great insight contained in my interacts you came to the ultimate realization that the term “chalak chowkie” was an oxy-moron?)

[…my introduction to tulsidas ( I confess) was rather pedestrian…owe to m f hussain…but i will ( also confess) I enjoyed this translation and your interacts… ]
I have a secret to tell you (hope nobody is listening (all of you except T-Bhai, skip the rest of this paragraph!)) – a LOT of Indians (yes, Hindu Indians) have the same level of understanding of this gentleman and his works! They like what they see – FROM A DISTANCE!
Seriously, I feel gratified that you liked it. That’s what it’s all about – at least from my side!

And finally,

[i like better some of the narrative reminisces and stories in your ilog … way better than this…]
Okay chowk editors – you heard the Tee! Loud and clear! If I send you anything along the lines of what T-bhai mentions here – in light of the FACT that you published THIS piece – THOSE better be a shoo-in (and not a “shoe out”).

Yeah! Or I’ll send in the Tee! (That should make them p**! Oops! Ram, Ram!)

Re#26 Sadna (Part 2 of 3)

Dear Ma’m:

[Anyway, in straight reading of the Avadhi (which I don`t know) as a layman, I found some of the translations problematic so I looked at a Gita Press translation.]

How much I wished I had access to that translation you allude to (I don’t know Awadhi, either) at the time I started working on this piece. Unfortunately, I do not have that – or perhaps my labor would have been simplified a bit – precisely by avoiding the kind of mistakes you mention.

Here and there, I have taken small liberties with individual words (instead of shooting for exact literal translation) to make them flow better, to try to develop a rhyme, while continuing to convey what I felt was the essence of the contents.

Let us take the [major quibbles] one at a time:

[{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee
--It is a `grihi` or `householder`, free from worldly desires, who is happy to see a Vishnu bhakt. ]

You are right, of course. However, the complete stanza is
{Lachhiman dekhu more-gun, naachat baarid pekhi}
{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
Translated as:
Laxman, behold peacocks – they dance
As rain they see – in abundance
No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee

So, the focus is on how happy the peacocks are – and I felt that not too much would be lost by replacing “Like Vishnu devotee, when – sees sacrificee” or something along those lines with the current version. A compromising situation, of course!

[{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}
This ground all same – as grass grows free
All land looks green – no path to see
{jimi pakhund vivaad-te, loopt hohin sad-granth}
Like dogmas and rituals – they hide
All knowledge that – lies deep inside
--inside holy books. Just like unchecked grass hides the paths, the paakhund vivaad hides the knowledge inside the sad-granth(holy books). ]

This is yet another case where exact literal translation had to give some way to a relatively smoother flow – also the reference to scriptures is implied. I felt satisfied – at least at the time.

[{urk-jawas paat janu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khal uddwam gayaoo}
But trees, for some – not one leaf blade
When wicked rule – efforts not made
-- `suraaj` is good government, so it is not `when wicked rule` at all.
According to Gita Press `The leaves of the Aka and Javasa plants have fallen off even as under a good government, the plans of the wicked come to naught` ]

Clearly, the mistake with “suraaj” is indeed a boo-boo! The exact names of those trees/plants do not matter, in my opinion. I should have tried different words – perhaps as follows:

But plants, for some – not one leaf blade
When rule is just – efforts evil fade

[{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
All earth now rich – and beauty treads
As wealth earned for – altruistic deeds
--You left out a verse after that one:
{Nisi tam ghan khadhyot biraaja, janu dambhih kar mila samaja}
``In the thick darkness of the night, fireflies gleam like a gathering of hypocrites``]

Perhaps a return trip to the optometrist is due! How about the following –
Fire-flies they gleam – in dark of nights
Like groups show-off – when hypocrites

[{Dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}
And love-birds are – not seen around
So lost is faith – discords when hound
--kalahin - Kalayug. The Chakravaka birds are no more to be seen, just as virtues disappear with onset of the Kali Age. If you meant to omit the Kali Yug reference, OK then.
I’ll take that “OK then”, of course!

[{Kabahun diwas mahan nibid tum, kabahunk pragat patang}
At times, the day – looks dark, as dusk
Yet lights it up – when sun does lurk
{binasain upajat gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}
So knowledge – will enhance, or not
As band would we – with good, or rot
--That knowledge is obscured in kusang(bad company), and manifest in susang(good company) doesn`t come through in translation. ]
You are probably right about this not coming through bright and clear. I agree. Oh well!

[Some minor quibbles…]
Those are all GOOD quibbles, but you are right, they are minor. Most of those are due to the reason outlined at the beginning of this post – compromises masquerading under the title “optimizarion”!

But I feel really HAPPY and grateful that you went through this translation as meticulously as you did! I am HIGHLY appreciative of that! Thanks again.

Beej #31

Small correction
To my knowledge, no ladies were burnt to ashes with Shiva`s third eye. He burnt to ashes the male God of Love Manmatha? who shot an arrow at Shiva to get him interested in Parvati.

``virtually ALL women were comfortable with and accepted this mythical blame – and cooperated with their dominant oppressor, of sorts!``

You are quite right, but I have a caveat wrt Sita and Rama. Sita did a lot of stuff because she wanted to. In both Valmiki and Tulsi, everybody concerned including Rama tried to persuade Sita not to accompany him into the forest. It was she who insisted on going. In what little I have read of the verse-by-verse translation of Valmiki, Rishi Vashishth also tells Sita that she can rightly rule over Kosala while Rama is away for fourteen years, but she refuses. The elders even say that being a new bride, it is inappropriate for Sita to give up her finery but she insists on wearing bark clothes as were specified for Rama.

The point is, from the language used by Rama and Sita in both Valmiki and Tulsi Ramayana during this and other episodes, it is clear that at the core of both writers` narratives lies the love story of Rama and Sita. Sita and Ram did stuff out of love for each other( Sita follows him into forest, Rama is shown almost losing his mental balance after Sita is kidnapped, for instance). And Rama is shown erring on this count more often than Sita did, in Valmiki if not in Tulsi.

Finally, in the (Valmiki) episode of Sita`s banishment when she was pregnant, when years later Rama was reunited with his sons and he went to fetch her back - she refused to go back with him and preferred to return to `Mother Earth` instead. That is an unmistakable indictment of the male, or no?

beej:

while you go on murderous rampages …ok verbal assaults;)…between meals and drinks and sleep and ….(shudder!)…i have been busy elsewhere delineating a crystal clear pecking order...a totem pole that will finally establish the women when many of us have been proclaiming them to be….so i will momentarily suspend that project and come here to write these words

my introduction to tulsidas ( I confess) was rather pedestrian…owe to m f hussain…but i will ( also confess) I enjoyed this translation and your interacts…

may i digress? ( it is an affliction with me)

i like better some of the narrative reminisces and stories in your ilog … way better than this…

rgds

t

Re#26 Sadna (Part 1 of 3)

Goodbye Mishra-jee, HEL-LO Sadna!!

Dear Ma’m,

Before I respond to your questions (at length, as I am sure you would have guessed from the format of the first line) let me please extend my sincerest thanks to you for taking the time to read the whole write-up and provide me the detailed feedback that you have provided!

I find this REFRESHING and in STARK contrast to the behavior of certain other “regular” interactors and self-proclaimed upholders of the underdog – yes, THOSE “do-goodies” who do not have the ability or courage to read THIS work – while they flock up spell-bound, in droves, like those proverbial “bees” that Tulsidas alluded to – bees of the “the birds and the bees” group – to a parallel board in search for what REALLY titillates their senses – while they falsely proclaim it titillates their intellect!

Ah, how the mightier they portray themselves – how much harder they take the plunge and how much flatter they fall – that inevitable fall of selling out – to crass commercialism – the commercialism of three letter words starting with “S” and four letter words starting with “R”, not to mention country names starting with “P”!

Red herrings them all, yet such is the toll – onward they roll – like those mighty juiced-up male (and perhaps female) elephants at a certain stage in life – hormones rushing faster than a speeding bullet – with a unique “junoon” in a league all its own!

If I might draw from the motivational songs of the Washington Redskins – that mighty pro-football team (although unfortunately not presently reflected in their season record):

“Hail to the chowkies! Hail hip-po-criss-see!”

Oh well! Enough railing at those clouds of darkness! Let us TRY together to shine some light of knowledge – at least in this one, solitary, and VERY desolate corner of this chowk world!


[The dangerous one is about freedom for women. Throughout Ramcharitmanas Tulsidas shows himself to be a misogynist essentially (though he was generally respectful of his Sita). He clearly had problems with women – the question is whether his wife or mother-in-law was the root cause :)]

I touched upon this earlier in #19 and #25. Perhaps it is time to “arrest” the culprit text in this piece and put it up for a full-blown trial.

Goswami Tulsidas:
{maha-vrishti chali phatee kiyaree, jimi sutantra bhaye big-ruhin naari}

Approximate Translation:
Torrential rains have filled up farming plots of land and the water breaks the boundary edges and overflows – just like women left free run amok – all spoilt.

The Beej version:
Those great rains break – banks, edges go
As left all free – blight women so

On first look, especially from today’s vantage point – it does appear to kind of put the women exactly where T-Bhai would call the “bottom of the totem pole” (that term is further elaborated upon in #3). But if we look back, in those times, more often than not, it WAS the commonly prevailing view – THE woman was the embodiment of the proverbial maya – that classical obstacle to achieving the ultimate – the achievement of nirvana – the woman being the ultimate siren which keeps those celestial tunes from flowing unhindered through the cores of the souls of those male moles – and stops those beings from fleeing to their ultimate stop – that desired destination of the divine for the devoted!

For example, how often we read in Hindu mythology about the saints doing tapasya – away from the probing eyes of other humans and ESPECIALLY from the probing eyes of those charming members of the fair sex!

How many times Indra, that troublemaker of all troublemakers, dispatched his ultimate weapon of massive destruction – that fair Main-ka – to nip in the bud those heavy-duty tapasya-carrying sanyasis! Heck, even Lord Shiva was not immune from the charms of those beautiful maidens – the third eye notwithstanding, and alas, how many ladies underwent instant conversion to ash-dust – the blame would NEVER fall on the male for his own weakness – it was ALWAYS considered the woman’s fault!

Even during Ram Rajya wasn’t it the lady Sita – and a pregnant lady Sita at that – the very lady Sita who is an object of pining by Lord Rama even in this description of the rainy season – who had to pay the price of banishment whereas Lord Rama – whose sentiments or pride were hurt because “people were talking” – continued to grace that throne, like an unmovable stone!

Such was life – back in those days! And why stop in those days only! Did the Mahatma ever seek Kastur Ba’s opinion before he decided to go the way of brahma-charees. The answer, of course is – big fat chance!

And perhaps the other side of the coin, too often missed, needs to be considered too – virtually ALL women were comfortable with and accepted this mythical blame – and cooperated with their dominant oppressor, of sorts!

Therefore, when Ratnavati admonished Tulsidas for chasing her a little too aggressively, she (perhaps inadvertently) provided a spark into what was already a very dry and combustible composition of gunpowder – and it exploded in no uncertain terms! He wrapped Bhakti all around himself – and focused on Rama – from which corner no surprises were likely to come his way and he entered an arrangement with Rama which he had perhaps been conditioned to envision a LONG time ago – and the results were perhaps much to the chagrin and sadness of Ratnavati!

I hesitate in using the term misogynist – I don’t know what a better term would be. I do not think an active “hate” was involved – it was more like a fear of bumping into something which could overpower him – so he actively denounced it, sort of an “insurance policy” to keep his distance.

Alas, ma’m, at this point my desire for a diet beverage overcomes my desire for continuing stimulating interaction – so I must break.

But I promise to return, in a jiffy, as much as practicable!

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re#29 PMishra2

[Tulsidas, of course, has this wonderful material of rama katha available. Colorful, full of life, sorrow and joy, war and peace, the whole nine yards (american football metaphor meaning fullness and plenty). But at the same time, in this skeptical age of science, it is hard for me to accept divine heroes of anykind.]
I believe I understand exactly where you are coming from. Personally, I have absolutely NO problem enjoying the Ramcharitmanas - just by reading it - without trying to make justifications for EVERYTHING in there - or having to agree with (and so not having to defend) EVERYTHING in this written work by one individual.

[I guess it is like comparing rossogolla to idli-sambhar. I love them both but at different times and for different reasons....]
I fully agree! Kabir has a charm unlike anybody else - all his own!!

At last - a meeting of minds - Hallelujah!!!

On to the next on the list.

Ms. Sadna, I am on my way - do not let go of those horses just yet! Thanks.

#25, 27, 28 Beej

Thanks for your detailed responses. It is a pleasure to meet an enthusiast of our bhakti poets.


I agree the poetry is so subtle and compact it is impossible to translate with the full flavor of the original. There is also so much reference to different indic ideas -- mukti, nirvana, etc. that it can be quite puzzling.

Tulsidas and Kabir are an interesting pair. While not quite contemporary they worked only a 100 years apart.

Kabir is a tough guy to like: his poems are sharp as glass and sometimes downright nasty. At the same time his emphasis on individuals being responsible for themselves, direct relationship to god and on ethical living is very suited to modern times. He is also a misogynist, BTW, his references to women are often in poor taste.

Tulsidas, of course, has this wonderful material of rama katha available. Colorful, full of life, sorrow and joy, war and peace, the whole nine yards (american football metaphor meaning fullness and plenty). But at the same time, in this skeptical age of science, it is hard for me to accept divine heroes of anykind.

I guess it is like comparing rossogolla to idli-sambhar. I love them both but at different times and for different reasons....

Re#17 Pmishra2 (an afterthought)

(Back from lunch)

Clearly, Mishra-jee, there is a lot more to those old adages than people give them credit for. Take this one for example:

Bhookhe bhajan na hoheen Gopala!

As soon as I had my first bite of lunch, I realized that I did not respond to the poem you quoted from Kabir – “jhini jhini bini chadariya.”

I believe it is just beautiful! Of course it is! It also illustrates the problems one can run into in communicating that beauty – that the only way to accomplish this beauty is by dispensing with the rhyme and picking words to communicate the underlying idea in the closest possible way – even then, it will probably never have the touch, the feel, the flavor, and the contentment that one would derive from the original! No doubt about it!

Thanks a lot for putting it up. Perhaps you can also provide information, if available, on how people could order/obtain a copy of this book and perhaps other books like that.

Re#17 PMishra2 (last part (hopefully) of a LONG answer (sounds of panting!))

[(3) How would you compare his writing to Kabir? ]

My dear Mishra-jee, I must admit that you had me absolutely stupified (if the janitor were around he would have dropped the “fie” portion of it) with this sixer out of the field! Wow! Or as we like to say back home – “mare gaye gulfaam!”

Since I did not know a whole lot on this issue, I did some web search to try to come up with an answer. Here is my “short” summary – based on the web (before anybody else says so – and it is from wikipedia, in particular) though I did try to condense a bit to make life easy for those (lazy) folks of chowk.

The medieval Hindi literature is marked by the influence of Bhakti movement and the composition of long, epic poems. Avadhi and Braj were the dialects in which literature was developed. Bhakti poetry had two schools – the Nirguna school (the believers of a formeless God or an abstract name) and the Saguna school (the believers of a God with attributes and worshippers of Vishnu`s incarnations).

Kabir and Guru Nanak belonged to the Nirguna school, while Vaishnava poets like Surdas, Tulsidas and others belonged to the Saguna school.

Kabir’s writings preach an ideal of seeing all of humanity as one. His monist philosophies and ideas of loving devotion to God are expressed in metaphor and language from both the Hindu Vedanta and Bhakti streams and Muslim Sufi ideals. His greatest work – the Bijak, or Seedling (but not necessarily related to my nick) demonstrates his own universal view of spirituality. His vocabulary is constantly full of ideas regarding Brahman and Hindu ideas of karma and reincarnation, yet he also espouses ideas that are clearly Sufi as well – as Hindu Bhakti understandings of God. His Hindi was a very vernacular, straightforward kind, much like his philosophies. He often advocated leaving aside the Qur`an and Vedas and to simply follow Sahaj path, or the Simple/Natural Way to oneness in God. He believed in the Vedantic concepts of atman and yet spurned the orthodox Hindu societal caste system and worship of statues, thus showing clear belief in both bhakti and sufi ideas.

Goswami Tulsidas’ doctrine is derived from Ramanuja through Ramananda. Like him, he believes in a supreme personal God, i.e., Saguna not in Nirguna Brahman of Shankaracharya – the Lord Himself took the human form, and became incarnate, for the blessing of mankind, as Rama. The body is therefore to be honored, not despised. Tulsi venerates the whole Hindu pantheon, and is especially careful to give Shiva or Mahadeva his due, and to point out that there is no inconsistency between devotion to Rama and attachment to Shiva. But the practical end of all his writings is to inculcate bhakti addressed to Rama as the great means of salvation and emancipation from the chain of births and deaths, a salvation which is available to everyone. His particular style of writing is perhaps well-described in this quotation from Dr. George A. Grierson, an early-20th-century translator and anthologist of vernacular Hindi literature, who says the following of the Ramcharitmanas: “… no one can read it in the original without being impressed by it as the work of a great genius. Its style varies with each subject. There is the deep pathos of the scene in which is described Rama`s farewell to his mother; the rugged language depicting the horrors of the battlefield – a torrent of harsh sounds clashing against each other and reverberating from phrase to phrase; and, as occasion requires, a sententious, aphoristic method of narrative, teeming with similes drawn from nature herself, and not from the traditions of the schools. His characters, too, live and move with all the dignity of an heroic age. Each is a real being, with a well-defined personality. Rama, perhaps too perfect to enlist all our sympathies; his impetuous and loving brother Lakshmana; the tender, constant Bharata; Sita, the ideal of an Indian wife and mother; Ravana, destined to failure, and fighting with all his demon force against his destiny, the Satan of the epic. All these are characters as lifelike and distinct as any in occidental literature.”

My bottom line is: I would have liked BOTH these folks – spending time back and forth with each, to make life more interesting!

Back to you, sir, AT LAST!

(Collapsing, getting up, and heading for lunch.)

Beej
Good choice of verses. The dangerous one is about freedom for women.. Throughout Ramcharitmanas Tulsidas shows himself to be a misogynist essentially(though he was generally respectful of his Sita). He clearly had problems with women- the question is whether his wife or mother-in-law was the root cause :).

In general, this is a brave attempt to get a doha/cchand like meter in English, which one can imagine is quite difficult - good luck with getting both the grammer and the poetic rhythm right. Perhaps you don`t need rhyming as well, as someone said.

To convey the essential meaning of the ``loaded`` vocabulary of the original while replicating not only the cadence is difficult too, I guess. The language has to be clear enough for someone coming cold to this to make sense of it, since concepts like maya/detachment/stillness of senses/vivek etc are not commonly understood.

Add to that having to transplant the overflowing sentiment of Tulsi. So- full marks to you for bravery in courting disaster.


Anyway, in straight reading of the Avadhi(which I don`t know) as a layman, I found some of the translations problematic so I looked at a Gita Press translation.


Some major quibbles:

{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}

No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee


--It is a `grihi` or `householder`, free from worldly desires, who is happy to see a Vishnu bhakt.



{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}

This ground all same – as grass grows free
All land looks green – no path to see

{jimi pakhund vivaad-te, loopt hohin sad-granth}

Like dogmas and rituals – they hide
All knowledge that – lies deep inside


--inside holy books. Just like unchecked grass hides the paths, the paakhund vivaad hides the knowledge inside the sad-granth(holy books).




{urk-jawas paat janu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khal uddwam gayaoo}

But trees, for some – not one leaf blade
When wicked rule – efforts not made


-- `suraaj` is good government, so it is not `when wicked rule` at all.

According to Gita Press `The leaves of the Aka and Javasa plants have fallen off even as under a good government, the plans of the wicked come to naught`



{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
All earth now rich – and beauty treads
As wealth earned for – altruistic deeds


--You left out a verse after that one:
{Nisi tam ghan khadhyot biraaja, janu dambhih kar mila samaja}

``In the thick darkness of the night, fireflies gleam like a gathering of hypocrites``




{Dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}

And love-birds are – not seen around
So lost is faith – discords when hound


--kalahin - Kalayug. The Chakravaka birds are no more to be seen, just as virtues disappear with onset of the Kali Age. If you meant to omit the Kali Yug reference, OK then.




{Kabahun diwas mahan nibid tum, kabahunk pragat patang}

At times, the day – looks dark, as dusk
Yet lights it up – when sun does lurk

{binasain upajat gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}

So knowledge – will enhance, or not
As band would we – with good, or rot


--That knowledge is obscured in kusang(bad company), and manifest in susang( good company) doesn`t come through in translation.




Some minor quibbles

- Bees not wasps.
- beloved better than darling.
- forgo not the right part of speech, a noun is needed there.
-`khal ki preet` is `friendship/love of the wicked` not wicked love


{nav pallav bhaye bitap aneka, saadhak man jus mile viveka}

And look, new leaf – on trees abound
Good judgment by – true trainee found

-saadhak is one who strives. Seeker might be closer than trainee.



{bibidh jantu sankul mahi bhraja, praja baadh jimi payee suraja}
Many creatures, large – and small, arrive
In freedom, masses – live and thrive

-again, suraaj is good government, not zactly freedom.

#17 PMishra2 (parts)

[…the author who, of course, is either considered a male-chauvinist demon or a great bhakta and avatar of valmiki. What is your opinion of him?]

I gave a short answer earlier. He was a product of his times – with some of the biases of those times – which were not considered a big deal BACK THEN, but are obviously so now – with more enlightenment having set in. However, most people pay little REAL-TIME attention to his (now) controversial remarks in the Ramcharitmanas – except perhaps for quoting those for purposes of their own.

In terms of the individual that he was – he might even be considered a modern-day psychiatrist’s delight. (Whatever happened to that S3? (For once, I wish I had not scared him away like a “chooha”!)) I am sure they would LOVE to have him flat on his fanny parked on a couch, recounting his experiences in life discussing – for example, the turmoil he underwent when abandoned by parents, not cared for by relatives, bossed around by saadhus, and perhaps most importantly – taken to task by his wife.

The latter incident was the most significant in terms of his turning his focus solely to Rama, although he apparently had a devotee streak since early on.

Here are some “juicy” details (mostly for other interactors) on what drove Tulsidas to become what he became famous for.

Tulsidas, married to Ratnavati, was so attached to her that he could not bear even a moment’s separation. Apparently, she did not have an equally passionate and active style of companionship for it appears that she set a plot of sorts – her brother came visiting and she sent Tulsidas to fetch some vegetables in the marketplace – yeah, that old “get those vegetables” ruse – and when the poor guy returned, toiling under those loads of groceries, she had disappeared – with her brother, to visit her parents. Can you imagine what the poor guy must have gone through!

So, our man braves the stormy weather and goes after her. Apparently, to cross the swollen river, he grabs a floating bull’s carcass. When he gets to his in-law’s place, he climbs a vine or so (which apparently was a snake – one of those slithering things, you know) to enter her room. All of this he does without being aware that he is doing it – so focused is he on her! Far worse than a sixteenth century version of Romeo and Juliet, I tell you!

And then she lets him have it, of course! He says – that’s it! I’m going to Rama! The rest, of course, is history of sorts.

All this, and a lot more of the details are available at various web-sites including these: Tulsidas, Chronicler of the Ramayana, a site on poets and seers, and other sites.

More to follow... (How could y`all EVER guess?!!!)

Re#22 khamkhwa

[11 out of 19....beej k singh...you talk too much...]

My dear, I think it is okay to talk too much as long as one is not talking ``khamkhwah``.

Have you seen some of my interacts?!! (Or more accurately, measured them?)

Seriously, some of my interacts are just too long - but I like them that way (it has been said that brevity is the soul of the wit and there appears to be widespread agreement among chowkies that this interactor is both soulless and witless) - and so I need to break them into shorter pieces so that people can read the ones that applies to a specific part of the query.

My long and very frequent interacts are here to stay - and have been for a while - so get used to them! Yeah!

SO, SO SOWWYY!

....lemme make it 12 outta 22...54.54%....

aap hi likho
aap hi paRho
aur aap hi bolo
jai ho hamaar

11 out of 19....beej k singh...you talk too much...

#15 Burpinder (parts)
#16 vagabond786

Re: (your comments on poetry)

Please note my disclaimers in #3 and the additional explanations in #6 – this is an attempt at translation of a portion of Ramcharitmanas. The “poetry” or the flow of thoughts if you would like to refer it as such – was the Goswami’s – whose descendants (if only there had been any, alas!) would have been rolling in money – if only he had copyrighted the work back then – if only copyright laws had existed back then – if only LAWS had existed back then ….., etc.

Too many ‘if only’s, of course!

Any attempt at translation of a work like this (even portions) is a guaranteed failure, in my view – because really there is no way to communicate the essence exactly. Period.

The best one can do is to communicate what is one’s OWN perception of that essence – using the available tools in one’s own possession! Putting rhyme in there imposes additional but necessary compromises – and also individualizes it perhaps too much!

As regards the “poet-like” quality of the original work – most people who like to read the original enjoy it a LOT – perhaps a lot more than any contemporary pieces of literature. For your information, it is worthwhile pointing out that the Goswami never considered himself a poet.

For example, according to one web site:

“Tulasi … declares in the Manasa that he is no poet and he is imperfect and only sings the excellence of Rama according to his poor wit and understanding. This is the case in his other works Gitavali (1571), Kavitavali (1612), Barvairamayana (1612) and one of the best works, Vinaya Patrika (request to Rama).”

You get the picture, or do you?

Re: # 17

Pmishra,

There is no denying the fact that Tulsidas rendered a great service by translating Ramayana to Ramcharitmanas. I believe, he lived around 16th century, and in that era, the Prakrit languages like Hindi, Punjabi, Bengali etc. were well evolved. It is highly likely that knowledge of Sanskrit was limited to few, and dwindling. Thanks to him, masses could read this epic in a language they could understand.

There is another aspect to his translation - devotion. Valmiki`s Ramayana treats Ram as a hero and draws his biographical sketch, whereas Tulsi elevates Ram to divinity. Ramcharitmanas is an ode by a devotee to his Lord. The `bhakta` has removed all the frailities of his character and in the process, rendered his work unsuitable for Historiography.

Now that Avadhi is just another of many dialects of Hindi and Khari Boli is the official dialect, we need another Tulsi to translate this to Hindi. Has it already been done?

Re#17 PMishra2

My dear Mishra jee,

Arrey bhai, kahan chhupe hue the aap abhee tuk?

Here I was – feeling sadder by the minute – and how slowly those minutes tick by – not a single serious question on this work – and lo and behold – I get your interact!

Dear Mishra-jee, YOU are the man after my own heart!

To satisfactorily address your questions, I must first cover a bit of background – perhaps more for the sake of others than for you. So, please bear this wear with me.

As you are well aware, although it is revered as an account of the life of Lord Rama, the Ramcharitmanas is not treated by the vast majority of masses like a book of religious commands, instructions, guidelines, or even tips – in the way for example, the Holy Bible is. It is just one interpretation of how Lord Rama lived his life – it’s Tulsidas’ account – who was obviously not an eye witness. Most people who read it, they just enjoy reading and singing it – I know I do, perhaps you do too – usually and especially on auspicious occasions.

It is quite well recognized that this Book contains a few controversial comments by Tulsidas – some of them reflect his own prejudices or those which prevailed in the society at large at the time. These included the treatment of the “low” castes and the stereotyping of women – these were and perhaps to some extent remain the unsavory aspects of our society, even in this twenty-first century, as can be evidenced on several contemporary boards.

The stereotyping of women perhaps was stronger in this instance because of Tulsidas’ own unfortunate experience – he left home after being lectured by his wife on why he should have devoted his attention to God instead of her body of flesh – this after Tulsidas had risked his life to get to her – legend has it that he crossed a swollen river by grabbing on to a bloated dead-body in order to keep afloat. I am not too knowledgeable in this area, but I am sure there are others here who can fill in more details.

The fact remains that most readers just love this Book, while few would deny some of its quirks – certain individual statements that lend themselves to criticism at the present time – most prefer to simply disregard them! That’s how it is, at the present time.

More to follow…

Re#15 by burpinder

Sat Sri Akal to you also, my dear! And for good measure, may I add “Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!”, and “Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!”, too! (and for rest of this board, unless there is reason to believe or do otherwise – let me – for the sake of discussion, assume that you are indeed “Burpinder” from Delhi (as distinct from, say, Delhi-ite from U.S.))

[Only thing most sirdarjees abhor is the cigaarit. Don`t ask me why.]

My dear Burpinder, I certainly do not mean to tell you regarding your “own” religion. Now-a-days, it is well known that smoking is highly injurious to one’s health. However, it was not always so well understood. In light of that, it is quite remarkable that the 10th Guru saw its harmful effects and expressly prohibited it – as quoted below from a Sikhism website – so you don’t have to plead your ignorance again:

“… Guru Gobind Singh was once riding with his Sikhs when he suddenly stopped his horse and after dismounting proceeded to rip out a wild tobacco plant. The Sikhs asked why the Guru had ripped the plant out and the Guru replied that the Sikhs should avoid alcohol as it destroys a generation but tobacco destroys several generations. The Guru then forbade his Sikhs to ever use tobacco.”

More on other parts of your post a bit later!

Beej-ji,

Thank you for your translation. I specially like that you chose to highlight the theme
of ``nature`` and the season of rains in india. Anyone who has lived through an indian summer followed by the first rains (and then the 10th :-) has a sense of the joy and exhilaration and of re-birth that accompanies the first few weeks of rain.

But your translation also highlights the author who, of course, is either considered a male-chauvinist demon or a great bhakta and avatar of valmiki. What is your opinion of him?

Obviously, not an easy question but:

(1) Is it the case that by translating ramayana into hindi, he had to face censure and hatred from the sanskrit-oriented hindu establishment?

(2) Are there any details of his life available? How did he acquire his learning?

(3) How would you compare his writing to Kabir?

BTW, I have been reading a beautiful translation of Kabir dohas and bhajans into English. Sad to say that while I read kabir in the hindi as a boy it was taught so HORRIBLY that I got nothing out of it. So this has been a real discovery for me and I plan to re-read him in the original.

Here is one of my favourites, though it has a more serious tone than your excerpt:

``jhini jhini bini chadariya``

He wove the sheet
so fine, so fine
He wove the sheet so fine.

What was the warp?
What was the weft?
What was the thread
with which he wove the sheet?

Ingala and Pingala,
the warp, the weft
Suhsumna the thread
which he wove the sheet.

He spins the eight-petakked lotus
as his spinning wheel,
with five elements
and three great qualities.

He weaves the sheet.

He weaves the sheet
through ten months
in a mother`s womb,
beating in the weft.

testing and checking
every strand,
He weaves the sheet.

Saints and human
wrap themselves in his sheet,
but the wrapping soils the sheet,
so fine, so fine.

His servant Kabir
wraps himself in the sheet,
with effort and care,
he keeps it spotlessly clean.

this sheet, so fine, so fine,...


FROM:

Kabir: The weaver`s songs
by Vinay Dharwadker, Penguin India, 2003.

Poems dont have to rime necessarily. Many wonderful poems and songs I`ve read/heard dont rime. And translated stuff rarely do. Not that the guys couldnt mind you.

So I agree with Burpinder paaje. This poetry sucks. Full marks for your efforts though.

Mr. Beej

Sat sri akal. My chacha is not minding the chai breaks, so I am logging in at 9.15 a.m. (not 5 a.m., you are be needing some help with the time differences, I suppose, like many of the weak intellect) and finding to my utmost delight that my old friend Beej who once accused me of being gujju or salim or whoever has written an article!

Beer is being loved by the sirdarjees, what you are saying sir! We are loving the whisky even more (Dharam-paaji once endorsed Bagpiper, don`t you remember?) Only thing most sirdarjees abhor is the cigaarit. Don`t ask me why.

Seriously though, thank you for reading my article. Have already submitted another, which I think should be published, unless chowk gets all prudish on me :)))

One more thing- it may seem to you that I was being petty and mean by criticizing your poetry, that`s not the case. I genuinely believe that it sucks. I also think t`s poetry sucks, but that is neither here nor there.

And, sorry to bring this up, but I absolutely fell out of my chair laughing when I saw your response to t`s recycled ``Hi-Jack`` story. Kept wondering- who to feel sorry for more- him for (re)making such a bad joke, or you for not getting it....

Peace.

#11 Rahulmal

Thanks for your positive and encouraging feedback.

I really appreciate your effort in going through the translation and the transcription.

At one time, I did consider the iTRANS option. However, I later found out that the version of MS WORD I currently use allows me to include the Indic Script package – so I have been using that for Hindi/Devanagri postings. For example, my August 15, 2005 i-log, which included the poem “Ae mere watan ke logon…” contained both the transcribed form as well as the form of the poem in Devanagri font.

I considered doing the same here, but made the (perhaps erroneous) assumption that not too many will be able to read Devanagri font. Perhaps I will do that a bit later.

I found the effort involved in this translation quite hard, but very rewarding.

Thanks again for the time you put in!

Now if only that OTHER Rahul will get his fanny over here – he may have some meaningful words to say, too! Boy, how slow he has been lately!

Will SOMEBODY wake up THAT kumbh-karan?

Sincerely,
Beej.

#10 by burpinder

My dear Burpinder,

I am so glad you decided to visit this board. Now I can have some fun (at your expense (sorry Bud! (I don’t mean the beverage! (Sirdar-jees don’t touch that stuff, do they?!(You ARE a sirdar-jee – aren’t you? (You mean to tell me that name is NOT real!))))))

And what the heck are you doing – reading Tulsidas at 5 A.M. Indian Standard Time when you should be out there, well, doing things that motorcycle mechanics working for their uncle are supposed to be doing at 5 A.M. IST – perhaps sleeping – unless you are running behind in your assignments (which would be quite understandable – it would be tough to hold that wrench and loosen lug-bolts at the same time as your eyes are glued to the chowk site), in which case you ought to be – well, fixing motor cycles! Yeah!

And you are too hard on T-Bhai – don’t underestimate his ability to inspire!

As far as this chowk site is concerned – well, my views have been amply amplified elsewhere – here and there, in bits and pieces, in bytes and bites! But it would be an error to call the audience here unsuspecting! I believe “all-suspecting” may be closer to the dot.

You got any questions on our man – THE man – Tulsidas?

Shoot now – or for ever hold that spanner!

Sincerely,
Beej.

PS: I found your article “The Sania Effect,” interesting in spite of the effects it produced – I suppose it could be considered a “unique” piece in a league of its own! When are you coming up with the next piece, master?

#9 Subroto

Subroto,

I am so pleased that you took a crack at rhyming my last name (of the pseudonym). It is a tough nut to crack, I tell you.

I firmly hold on to the belief that there is a very simple explanation for why there are SO FEW sirdar-jee poets out there! (You are listening, Kaura – right! (Yes, that’s exactly what I mean.(Go for it, baadshaaho!)))

You see, Subroto – “Singh” is such a difficult word to rhyme!

Seriously, my regards for a poet’s MANUAL part of the toil has gone up significantly – ever since I undertook this undertaking (and I have a feeling that some knowledgeable chowkies here are sadly shaking their head and remarking – yes, you did a job as effectively as an undertaker!)

It is SUCH a pain – imagine when they only used to use only a pen!

I consider this work more of a labor of love – ever since childhood, I have loved reading the Ramcharitmanas – a passion few in my (real) family share!

Also, there are some interesting stories from Tulsidas’ own life – but I will put it in later – hopefully somebody might have a question or two about him.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Beej,

This was really neat! I salute the effort put in to make it rhyme. The verses are indeed luxuriant.

It took me an awful time to read the original, and I still don`t understand many words. Not sure if this is because of transliteration or Awadhi dialect. It would be a good idea to follow Rahul_Captri`s advice on trasnliteration and use iTRANS. If you write the original as per iTRANS, the software generates an image of the text in Devnagari, so people can read it for themselves. For instance, I prefer `tam` to `tum` (darkness).
Official iTRANS Site

This is what happens when people like temporal encourage and inspire all and sundry to let loose their creative juices on an unsusupecting chowk audience.

Mr. Beej, just because it rhymes doesn`t mean it`s poetry.

And these shameless attempts to increase post count and inflict more of your sad brand of ``humour`` on readers is just.. .well... pathetic.

please sing beej k singh
can beej k singh sing
is there a poetic soil
under that janitorial toil
thanks to tulsi we hear you sing

The Visitation, Part -1

(Chowk interactors peeping in.)
Beej(B): Come on in!

(Chowk interactors unsure.)
B: Do come on in, sir! (More pleasant voice) Come on in baby – sweetheart – hunney – darling…!

(Enters the janitor)
Janitor (J): Did somebody call me?!

(Chowk interactors scatter faster than clouds during the rainy season.)

B: Oh, my God! Not you again!
J: Is there a problem here?
B: No problem – nothing to fix – why don’t you just go away!
J: You mean, leave you all alone in your misery – sitting here killing flies while NOBODY shows up to interact! (Aside) Not you T-Bhai, I NEVER meant that YOU are a nobody!
B: Wise guy, eh? Didn’t you earlier say that sarcasm is corrosive – especially to self!
J: You should have listened to my advice!
B: You mean about focusing on Tulsidas’ love life instead of his description of the rainy season?!
J: It worked for the Gillster!
B: Well, I DID try to bury little hints of sensuality and sexual innuendos! Not to mention a very subtle hint of a HIGHLY controversial nature.
J: And what was that?
B: (Shocked) I’m not going to tell you! Let them find for themselves!
J: You still don’t get it, do you! With THIS crowd, you have to hit them on their heads with it – literally blow their minds away – like Hamid2’s adrakh, a – taste you really missed out on!
B: Don’t give me that smartypants look – YOU missed it too!
J: You realize what the basic problem is?
B: Go ahead – make my day – hit me with it!
J: There is an underlying fundamental issue with the rainy season.
B: How so?
J: It make people FEEL all wet!
B: Now he tells me! (Heart broken) Gawd…. You really know how to rub it in. (Angry like heck) Scram!
J: So when is a good time for me to come back?
B: How about NEVER!
J: You break my heart!
B: PLEASE don’t start singing – or reciting Urdu poetry! Urdu – you know – a language you don’t know, I mean!
J: What’s wrong with Hindi poetry!
B: Too much fidgeting with the “foreign” keyboard!
J: Why not just Hindvi?
B: Stop trying to pull this sage stuff on me! I have seen you in your underwear!
J: Be careful now! Chowk censor (CC) might be listening!
B: That’s all I need – no interactors AND some chowk warning citations – just when I am beginning to endear myself to this crowd!
J: You mean, for your entertainment value!
B: Do you have to be so cruel – I do have a heart – and it does bleed if you prick it!
J: Not to prick your balloon too hard – but this site is full of bleeding-hearts – as liberal as they come!
B: Come back on Halloween day – just the right time for ghosts and goblins!

(Beej looks restless.)
J: Unless I feel otherwise!

(Exit the janitor.)

Re#5 WiseGuyIn (further thoughts)

And by the way, I picked a part of Ramcharitmanas which is not heavy on the religion part – but has some really good metaphors which I have liked for a while.

I am glad you liked the part about the boulder and are moved by it (who says that boulders never move) but I am not trying to convert anybody here to Hinduism!

Therefore, Urstruly, NTSyed, and others of that esteemed group – you can consider yourself still safe from my cleverly-disguised attacks designed for you to drop everything (but not those pants) and line up at the closest Hindu temple for a quick conversion!

(And hamidm2, keep that trap shut about any disfigured body parts – remember you asked me to remind you not to tangle with me!! Yeah!)

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re#5 Wiseguyin

Dear “wise guy”,

Alas, how dull indeed our lives would be without wise guys!

(Psst: You realize of course who they used to call “wise guy” in old gangster movies?! (Hint: such a remark would be followed by a quick blast of gun fire at the object of that remark!))

Just kidding, of course!

You have hit upon the crux of the matter. I have always had the suspicion that a lot of poems do not rhyme – not because the poet’s natural flow wants to move unhindered (not to be confused with body movements (or body organ movements)), but because it is TOO MUCH WORK to make the rhyme work!

And poets are basically lazy! (Except for our T-Bhai here, of course!)

So, I toiled, and I toiled, and at times got a bit lazy and instead of keeping on trying longer (as in for the next fifty years), I applied the janitorial practice of “optimization” – i.e., do the best one can do while retaining SOME connection to the original thingie.

The original text for that stanza you mention was:

{ka-ba-hun prabal bah maarut, juhn-tunh megh bilaaheen}
{jimi kapoot ke oopje, kul sud-dharam nasaaheen}

Literal Translation (parenthetic stuff is mine):
Occasionally, a powerful gust of wind would come and scatter all of them clouds, causing them to disappear (a little like those “neta-jees” right after the elections!) – just like all it takes is one lousy family member for all the virtues of the whole extended family to go down the drain (a bit like somebody with the initials OBL creating problems for the good image of a whole community all by himself.)

Beej version:
When wind just comes – powerful, one
Those clouds then scatter – gone, but none
Like takes just one – of evil bend
To virtues, for – whole clan, to end

If you can suggest a better optimization – hey, be my guest!

Thanks for the input – keep them coming! Otherwise, I will have to continue this talk ALL by myself! (I have the feeling that this chowk crowd is so scared of me they have all decided to hide.)

Sincerely,
Beej.

Beej,
I must congratulate you on the fine effort you have put in this.

On boulder white – beautiful hue
Seated serene – the brothers two


I have not been to a temple in a long time now. Somehow your translation reminded me of
that. So definitely you have done a good job. But, in patches, the effect of words seems
strange .... like

When wind just comes – powerful, one
Those clouds then scatter – gone, but none

Like takes just one – of evil bend
To virtues, for – whole clan, to end


regards,
SN

All interactors:

Let me get a few things out of the way right away.

(1) I am Beej. (It’s a pseudonym. (But I like it. (It should have been my name.)))

(2) I am NOT Goswami Tulsidas.

(3) Goswami Tulsidas lived a few centuries ago. I did not know him personally.

(4) Feel free to take this work apart – I won’t mind – I did not write the original.

(5) The Goswami won’t mind either. He is dead.

(6) For those who understand the original (appearing in #2 – in Awadhi language), feel free to suggest your own versions for individual lines. It will make me happy – especially since it will make YOU happy! I don`t know how the Goswami would have felt – probably neutral. (He did not know English, anyway.)

I reserve the right to get more things out of the way, as and when necessary! (Therefore, don’t drop your guard just yet! Yeah!)

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re #1 Temporal

Thanks, T-Bhai.

Psst: Now that this piece is published – does it mean that I can go back to being tough on the “chowk editors”, “chowk staff”, and even that chowk bottom-placed-in-totem pole – the self-sacrificing and beaten-to-a-pulp “chowk volunteer”?!

Just kidding, of course, this interactor does not know the FIRST thing about being tough on any one!

By the way, thanks for introducing me to the word “totem pole”. I had no idea what it means till I heard you mention it. After some serious research, I was finally able to locate a picture of it.

For those interested in seeing that famous picture of the chowk totem pole which T-Bhai keeps mentioning, please click here!

Now, if only it were possible to assign individual names to those heads – especially the ones located in strategic positions!

For comparison purposes, here is an approximate (phonetic) transcription of the original verse.

{sundar ban kusu-mit ati sobha, goon-jat madhup nikar madhu lobha}
{kund mool fal-patra suhae, bha-ye bahut jub te prabhu aye}
{de-khi manohar saiel anoopa, rahe-tanh anuj sahit sur bhoopa}
{madhu-kar khag mriga tanu dhari dewa, karahin sid-dha muni prabhu kai sewa}
{mangal-roop bhaya-u ban tub-te, keenh niwas Rama-pati jub-te}
{phatik sila ati subhra suhai, sukh aaseen tahan dwow bhai}
{kahat anuj sun katha aneka, bhagati birati nrip-neeti bibeka}
{varsha kaal megh nabh chhayey, gur-jut laagan param suha-ye}
{Lachhiman dekhu more-gun, naachat baarid pekhi}
{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
{ghan ghamand nabh garjat ghora, piya heen darpat mun mora}
{daamini damak rahee ghan maahee, khal ke preet jathaa thir nahee}
{barashahin jalad bhoomi near-aye, jatha navahi budh vidya paaye}
{boond aghaat sahahin giri kaise, khal ke vachan sant sah jaise}
{kshudra nadee bhar chalahi torayee, jus thore-hi dhan khal it-raa-yee}
{bhoomi parat bha-dhaabar paani, janu jiv-hi maaya laputanee}
{samiti-samiti jal bharahin talaba, jimi sad-gun saj-jana pahin aawa}
{sarita jal jal-nidhi mahun hayee, hoi achal jimi jiv Hari payee}
{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}
{jimi pakhund vivaad-te, loopt hohin sad-granth}
{daa-door dhuni chahun dishaa suhai, ved ra-ta-tat janu batu samudai}
{nav pallav bhaye bitap aneka, saadhak man jus mile viveka}
{urk-jawas paat janu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khal uddwam gayaoo}
{kho-jat katahun milai nahin dhooree, karai krodh jimi dharamheen doori}
{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
{maha-vrishti chali phatee kiyaree, jimi sutantra bhaye big-ruhin naari}
{Krishi nirawahin chatur kisana, jimi budh tajahin moah, mud, gyana}
{Dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}
{Ooshar barashai trin nahin jaama, jimi harijan hiya upaja na kama}
{bibidh jantu sankul mahi bhraja, praja baadh jimi payee suraja}
{jahan, tahan rahe pathik thaki nana, jimi indriya gun upjen gyana}
{ka-ba-hun prabal bah maarut, juhn-tunh megh bilaaheen}
{jimi kapoot ke oopje, kul sud-dharam nasaaheen}
{Kabahun diwas mahan nibid tum, kabahunk pragat patang}
{binasain upajat gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}

beej:

a quick welcome

more later

rgds

t