The Rainy Season

Re#26 Sadna (Part 2 of 3)

Dear Ma’m:

[Anyway, in straight reading of the Avadhi (which I don`t know) as a layman, I found some of the translations problematic so I looked at a Gita Press translation.]

How much I wished I had access to that translation you allude to (I don’t know Awadhi, either) at the time I started working on this piece. Unfortunately, I do not have that – or perhaps my labor would have been simplified a bit – precisely by avoiding the kind of mistakes you mention.

Here and there, I have taken small liberties with individual words (instead of shooting for exact literal translation) to make them flow better, to try to develop a rhyme, while continuing to convey what I felt was the essence of the contents.

Let us take the [major quibbles] one at a time:

[{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee
--It is a `grihi` or `householder`, free from worldly desires, who is happy to see a Vishnu bhakt. ]

You are right, of course. However, the complete stanza is
{Lachhiman dekhu more-gun, naachat baarid pekhi}
{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}
Translated as:
Laxman, behold peacocks – they dance
As rain they see – in abundance
No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee

So, the focus is on how happy the peacocks are – and I felt that not too much would be lost by replacing “Like Vishnu devotee, when – sees sacrificee” or something along those lines with the current version. A compromising situation, of course!

[{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}
This ground all same – as grass grows free
All land looks green – no path to see
{jimi pakhund vivaad-te, loopt hohin sad-granth}
Like dogmas and rituals – they hide
All knowledge that – lies deep inside
--inside holy books. Just like unchecked grass hides the paths, the paakhund vivaad hides the knowledge inside the sad-granth(holy books). ]

This is yet another case where exact literal translation had to give some way to a relatively smoother flow – also the reference to scriptures is implied. I felt satisfied – at least at the time.

[{urk-jawas paat janu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khal uddwam gayaoo}
But trees, for some – not one leaf blade
When wicked rule – efforts not made
-- `suraaj` is good government, so it is not `when wicked rule` at all.
According to Gita Press `The leaves of the Aka and Javasa plants have fallen off even as under a good government, the plans of the wicked come to naught` ]

Clearly, the mistake with “suraaj” is indeed a boo-boo! The exact names of those trees/plants do not matter, in my opinion. I should have tried different words – perhaps as follows:

But plants, for some – not one leaf blade
When rule is just – efforts evil fade

[{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
All earth now rich – and beauty treads
As wealth earned for – altruistic deeds
--You left out a verse after that one:
{Nisi tam ghan khadhyot biraaja, janu dambhih kar mila samaja}
``In the thick darkness of the night, fireflies gleam like a gathering of hypocrites``]

Perhaps a return trip to the optometrist is due! How about the following –
Fire-flies they gleam – in dark of nights
Like groups show-off – when hypocrites

[{Dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}
And love-birds are – not seen around
So lost is faith – discords when hound
--kalahin - Kalayug. The Chakravaka birds are no more to be seen, just as virtues disappear with onset of the Kali Age. If you meant to omit the Kali Yug reference, OK then.
I’ll take that “OK then”, of course!

[{Kabahun diwas mahan nibid tum, kabahunk pragat patang}
At times, the day – looks dark, as dusk
Yet lights it up – when sun does lurk
{binasain upajat gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}
So knowledge – will enhance, or not
As band would we – with good, or rot
--That knowledge is obscured in kusang(bad company), and manifest in susang(good company) doesn`t come through in translation. ]
You are probably right about this not coming through bright and clear. I agree. Oh well!

[Some minor quibbles…]
Those are all GOOD quibbles, but you are right, they are minor. Most of those are due to the reason outlined at the beginning of this post – compromises masquerading under the title “optimizarion”!

But I feel really HAPPY and grateful that you went through this translation as meticulously as you did! I am HIGHLY appreciative of that! Thanks again.

Beej #31

Small correction
To my knowledge, no ladies were burnt to ashes with Shiva`s third eye. He burnt to ashes the male God of Love Manmatha? who shot an arrow at Shiva to get him interested in Parvati.

``virtually ALL women were comfortable with and accepted this mythical blame – and cooperated with their dominant oppressor, of sorts!``

You are quite right, but I have a caveat wrt Sita and Rama. Sita did a lot of stuff because she wanted to. In both Valmiki and Tulsi, everybody concerned including Rama tried to persuade Sita not to accompany him into the forest. It was she who insisted on going. In what little I have read of the verse-by-verse translation of Valmiki, Rishi Vashishth also tells Sita that she can rightly rule over Kosala while Rama is away for fourteen years, but she refuses. The elders even say that being a new bride, it is inappropriate for Sita to give up her finery but she insists on wearing bark clothes as were specified for Rama.

The point is, from the language used by Rama and Sita in both Valmiki and Tulsi Ramayana during this and other episodes, it is clear that at the core of both writers` narratives lies the love story of Rama and Sita. Sita and Ram did stuff out of love for each other( Sita follows him into forest, Rama is shown almost losing his mental balance after Sita is kidnapped, for instance). And Rama is shown erring on this count more often than Sita did, in Valmiki if not in Tulsi.

Finally, in the (Valmiki) episode of Sita`s banishment when she was pregnant, when years later Rama was reunited with his sons and he went to fetch her back - she refused to go back with him and preferred to return to `Mother Earth` instead. That is an unmistakable indictment of the male, or no?

Re: # 33
Thanks Mr. Beej to give us some feeling some glimpses of Tulasi Ram Charitra.
First I do not have great knowledge about old Indian classics only read English translation and enjoy those old treaties.

Some times accidents change things and you find things you like. When I was doing my B.A. in Karachi in 65 , being biblographic the Univ. Libraian was friend of my maternal uncle( MU). ( I did not complete BA , physical ailments, premonation of future depression ? ) They decided then junk old unused and no demand Indian classic books as a policy. He told me I can have all those books , you can carry by lorry. I told him will get few and I asked him to give me about 100 books ( all english translation) and will try to read when time permitting. He suggested and my maternal uncle`s friend with car ( at that time only ``real rich`` people had car) helped me to transport. That way I was introduced to indian classics.

Secondly gift for life due to my maternal uncle was appreciation of Indian classical music. Karachi Engg College was full of Hindu Marathi Professors. As things changed all left for Bombay. MU was working engg and was scholarly engineer and always kept contact with teachers/ Prof Deodhar, Chipulnkar... can remember much time washes all. These were very cultured people and had good Records of 3 minutes and large upto 7 minutes. It was not possible to carry them back they gave all to my MU. HE introduced me to Classical music and have still records of Artits like Abdul Karimkhan, Hirabai Barodekar, Sureshbabu mane, Abdul Wahid Khan, Many marathi drama songs...)

About Shiv and his making ashes of Madan the companion of Rati. One the best classics of Kalidas `` KumarSambhava`` is story of that. How Madan tried to break the attention of lord Shiva. I always felt that is best work of Kalidas speciallly never read any such romantic or even erotic poetry written in world. ( Kumar Sambhava, Meghdoot, Raghuvansha, Shankuntal and Malvikagni- Mitra- last is not great , all others are according to me.) Incidently Kalidas always refers in poetry to surrounding landmass, mountains, rivers, waterbodies, animals and flora and that is wonderful. He is Impressed ny natural things, like in his epic Meghdoota he starts with `` Ashad ( Vernacular Punjabi month is almost exact version it appears) Months first day ( clouds have started moving, what a height of imagination and romace of idea of sending his beloved a message via clouds) or in Raghuvansha Rama refers to Lanka as evergreen golden Lanka and tells his brother the appreciation of that place and he exclaims still I want to go back as mother and motherland is more dear to me than heaven.
Unfortunately I have no copy of Tulsiram`s Ramcharitra. I will try to find and read translation by internet if in english. Translation is tricky part some times orginality is lost but with apprecative and imaginative mind one can enjoy most classics.

Other epic poem from India I enoy is ``Geet Gopal`` one of sweet poetry written by Mr. Jaydeo and have copy of it as indian classic.

Now returning to story of Ramayana. Ramayana is moral science while mahabharata is social science both complex and with its pathetic metaphors. Ramayana`s start is most serene, sad and solemn. Any person with little heart and appreciation can feel the beginning of epic. Courting gay birds and hunter takes aim and Sage Valmiki comes out of meditation and shouts please do not send arrow and arrow has left and stikes bird and the companion bird screams and dives to see at gone bird and then screams. Sage Valmiki is touched by Pathos and starts the story. Never has seen by eye such start so dramatic and so evocative. ( Second epic is also same way a Mighty warrier Arjuna on way to war front looses his heart and goes in depressiona nd story starts...)

At onset of Ramayana there are hints of privations of moral man his suffereing even moral Rama suffers , a devoted son, devoted husband, moral man, moral king has to suffer like all mortals. King Bhavbhooti wrote a famous classics `` Uttar RamCharitra``.

Tulsidas made great service to society by bringing the moral story in simple language of hindi and made available to masses so they can sing enjoy and imbibe the essense of life of Rama as most people would not have understood sanskrut language treates of Ramayana.

I have read a story of Tulidas . It is said he was in love and wanted to see his beloved. There was flood in Jamuna ( or Ganges?) and did not know swimming. The power of love was so overwhelming he jumped in water and got hold of dead floating human body and used as a floating device to reach destination ?

I now a days fear soon classics from India will be lost as inferiority complex and general downward trend towards finding common acceptable marketable ``manufactured`` products will dominate as world is becoming technical and domination of English and derivative effects and integration. I have not seen movie or TV for decades may be due to physical ailments but I can read and classics give me pleasure. Art of poetry is lost as there is no rhythum. Some loss of rhythum is acceptable even Shakespear uses free verse or in 1930s Bengali Mr. Micheal Madhusudan Dutta started ``Mukta Chhanda`` for writing poetry. Now a days most poetry is not poerty but some lazy writers writing lines with no rules. They can use straight writing composition. While some times verse is written as poetry, like in KingLear which cathes ear. Appreciation is not easy and slowly going away and there is eternal problem of to enjoy culture one should be cultured.

Again thanks for translation of lines from Tulsidas, enjoyed.

good luck everybody

beej:

while you go on murderous rampages …ok verbal assaults;)…between meals and drinks and sleep and ….(shudder!)…i have been busy elsewhere delineating a crystal clear pecking order...a totem pole that will finally establish the women when many of us have been proclaiming them to be….so i will momentarily suspend that project and come here to write these words

my introduction to tulsidas ( I confess) was rather pedestrian…owe to m f hussain…but i will ( also confess) I enjoyed this translation and your interacts…

may i digress? ( it is an affliction with me)

i like better some of the narrative reminisces and stories in your ilog … way better than this…

rgds

t

Re#26 Sadna (Part 1 of 3)

Goodbye Mishra-jee, HEL-LO Sadna!!

Dear Ma’m,

Before I respond to your questions (at length, as I am sure you would have guessed from the format of the first line) let me please extend my sincerest thanks to you for taking the time to read the whole write-up and provide me the detailed feedback that you have provided!

I find this REFRESHING and in STARK contrast to the behavior of certain other “regular” interactors and self-proclaimed upholders of the underdog – yes, THOSE “do-goodies” who do not have the ability or courage to read THIS work – while they flock up spell-bound, in droves, like those proverbial “bees” that Tulsidas alluded to – bees of the “the birds and the bees” group – to a parallel board in search for what REALLY titillates their senses – while they falsely proclaim it titillates their intellect!

Ah, how the mightier they portray themselves – how much harder they take the plunge and how much flatter they fall – that inevitable fall of selling out – to crass commercialism – the commercialism of three letter words starting with “S” and four letter words starting with “R”, not to mention country names starting with “P”!

Red herrings them all, yet such is the toll – onward they roll – like those mighty juiced-up male (and perhaps female) elephants at a certain stage in life – hormones rushing faster than a speeding bullet – with a unique “junoon” in a league all its own!

If I might draw from the motivational songs of the Washington Redskins – that mighty pro-football team (although unfortunately not presently reflected in their season record):

“Hail to the chowkies! Hail hip-po-criss-see!”

Oh well! Enough railing at those clouds of darkness! Let us TRY together to shine some light of knowledge – at least in this one, solitary, and VERY desolate corner of this chowk world!


[The dangerous one is about freedom for women. Throughout Ramcharitmanas Tulsidas shows himself to be a misogynist essentially (though he was generally respectful of his Sita). He clearly had problems with women – the question is whether his wife or mother-in-law was the root cause :)]

I touched upon this earlier in #19 and #25. Perhaps it is time to “arrest” the culprit text in this piece and put it up for a full-blown trial.

Goswami Tulsidas:
{maha-vrishti chali phatee kiyaree, jimi sutantra bhaye big-ruhin naari}

Approximate Translation:
Torrential rains have filled up farming plots of land and the water breaks the boundary edges and overflows – just like women left free run amok – all spoilt.

The Beej version:
Those great rains break – banks, edges go
As left all free – blight women so

On first look, especially from today’s vantage point – it does appear to kind of put the women exactly where T-Bhai would call the “bottom of the totem pole” (that term is further elaborated upon in #3). But if we look back, in those times, more often than not, it WAS the commonly prevailing view – THE woman was the embodiment of the proverbial maya – that classical obstacle to achieving the ultimate – the achievement of nirvana – the woman being the ultimate siren which keeps those celestial tunes from flowing unhindered through the cores of the souls of those male moles – and stops those beings from fleeing to their ultimate stop – that desired destination of the divine for the devoted!

For example, how often we read in Hindu mythology about the saints doing tapasya – away from the probing eyes of other humans and ESPECIALLY from the probing eyes of those charming members of the fair sex!

How many times Indra, that troublemaker of all troublemakers, dispatched his ultimate weapon of massive destruction – that fair Main-ka – to nip in the bud those heavy-duty tapasya-carrying sanyasis! Heck, even Lord Shiva was not immune from the charms of those beautiful maidens – the third eye notwithstanding, and alas, how many ladies underwent instant conversion to ash-dust – the blame would NEVER fall on the male for his own weakness – it was ALWAYS considered the woman’s fault!

Even during Ram Rajya wasn’t it the lady Sita – and a pregnant lady Sita at that – the very lady Sita who is an object of pining by Lord Rama even in this description of the rainy season – who had to pay the price of banishment whereas Lord Rama – whose sentiments or pride were hurt because “people were talking” – continued to grace that throne, like an unmovable stone!

Such was life – back in those days! And why stop in those days only! Did the Mahatma ever seek Kastur Ba’s opinion before he decided to go the way of brahma-charees. The answer, of course is – big fat chance!

And perhaps the other side of the coin, too often missed, needs to be considered too – virtually ALL women were comfortable with and accepted this mythical blame – and cooperated with their dominant oppressor, of sorts!

Therefore, when Ratnavati admonished Tulsidas for chasing her a little too aggressively, she (perhaps inadvertently) provided a spark into what was already a very dry and combustible composition of gunpowder – and it exploded in no uncertain terms! He wrapped Bhakti all around himself – and focused on Rama – from which corner no surprises were likely to come his way and he entered an arrangement with Rama which he had perhaps been conditioned to envision a LONG time ago – and the results were perhaps much to the chagrin and sadness of Ratnavati!

I hesitate in using the term misogynist – I don’t know what a better term would be. I do not think an active “hate” was involved – it was more like a fear of bumping into something which could overpower him – so he actively denounced it, sort of an “insurance policy” to keep his distance.

Alas, ma’m, at this point my desire for a diet beverage overcomes my desire for continuing stimulating interaction – so I must break.

But I promise to return, in a jiffy, as much as practicable!

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re#29 PMishra2

[Tulsidas, of course, has this wonderful material of rama katha available. Colorful, full of life, sorrow and joy, war and peace, the whole nine yards (american football metaphor meaning fullness and plenty). But at the same time, in this skeptical age of science, it is hard for me to accept divine heroes of anykind.]
I believe I understand exactly where you are coming from. Personally, I have absolutely NO problem enjoying the Ramcharitmanas - just by reading it - without trying to make justifications for EVERYTHING in there - or having to agree with (and so not having to defend) EVERYTHING in this written work by one individual.

[I guess it is like comparing rossogolla to idli-sambhar. I love them both but at different times and for different reasons....]
I fully agree! Kabir has a charm unlike anybody else - all his own!!

At last - a meeting of minds - Hallelujah!!!

On to the next on the list.

Ms. Sadna, I am on my way - do not let go of those horses just yet! Thanks.

#25, 27, 28 Beej

Thanks for your detailed responses. It is a pleasure to meet an enthusiast of our bhakti poets.


I agree the poetry is so subtle and compact it is impossible to translate with the full flavor of the original. There is also so much reference to different indic ideas -- mukti, nirvana, etc. that it can be quite puzzling.

Tulsidas and Kabir are an interesting pair. While not quite contemporary they worked only a 100 years apart.

Kabir is a tough guy to like: his poems are sharp as glass and sometimes downright nasty. At the same time his emphasis on individuals being responsible for themselves, direct relationship to god and on ethical living is very suited to modern times. He is also a misogynist, BTW, his references to women are often in poor taste.

Tulsidas, of course, has this wonderful material of rama katha available. Colorful, full of life, sorrow and joy, war and peace, the whole nine yards (american football metaphor meaning fullness and plenty). But at the same time, in this skeptical age of science, it is hard for me to accept divine heroes of anykind.

I guess it is like comparing rossogolla to idli-sambhar. I love them both but at different times and for different reasons....

Re#17 Pmishra2 (an afterthought)

(Back from lunch)

Clearly, Mishra-jee, there is a lot more to those old adages than people give them credit for. Take this one for example:

Bhookhe bhajan na hoheen Gopala!

As soon as I had my first bite of lunch, I realized that I did not respond to the poem you quoted from Kabir – “jhini jhini bini chadariya.”

I believe it is just beautiful! Of course it is! It also illustrates the problems one can run into in communicating that beauty – that the only way to accomplish this beauty is by dispensing with the rhyme and picking words to communicate the underlying idea in the closest possible way – even then, it will probably never have the touch, the feel, the flavor, and the contentment that one would derive from the original! No doubt about it!

Thanks a lot for putting it up. Perhaps you can also provide information, if available, on how people could order/obtain a copy of this book and perhaps other books like that.

Re#17 PMishra2 (last part (hopefully) of a LONG answer (sounds of panting!))

[(3) How would you compare his writing to Kabir? ]

My dear Mishra-jee, I must admit that you had me absolutely stupified (if the janitor were around he would have dropped the “fie” portion of it) with this sixer out of the field! Wow! Or as we like to say back home – “mare gaye gulfaam!”

Since I did not know a whole lot on this issue, I did some web search to try to come up with an answer. Here is my “short” summary – based on the web (before anybody else says so – and it is from wikipedia, in particular) though I did try to condense a bit to make life easy for those (lazy) folks of chowk.

The medieval Hindi literature is marked by the influence of Bhakti movement and the composition of long, epic poems. Avadhi and Braj were the dialects in which literature was developed. Bhakti poetry had two schools – the Nirguna school (the believers of a formeless God or an abstract name) and the Saguna school (the believers of a God with attributes and worshippers of Vishnu`s incarnations).

Kabir and Guru Nanak belonged to the Nirguna school, while Vaishnava poets like Surdas, Tulsidas and others belonged to the Saguna school.

Kabir’s writings preach an ideal of seeing all of humanity as one. His monist philosophies and ideas of loving devotion to God are expressed in metaphor and language from both the Hindu Vedanta and Bhakti streams and Muslim Sufi ideals. His greatest work – the Bijak, or Seedling (but not necessarily related to my nick) demonstrates his own universal view of spirituality. His vocabulary is constantly full of ideas regarding Brahman and Hindu ideas of karma and reincarnation, yet he also espouses ideas that are clearly Sufi as well – as Hindu Bhakti understandings of God. His Hindi was a very vernacular, straightforward kind, much like his philosophies. He often advocated leaving aside the Qur`an and Vedas and to simply follow Sahaj path, or the Simple/Natural Way to oneness in God. He believed in the Vedantic concepts of atman and yet spurned the orthodox Hindu societal caste system and worship of statues, thus showing clear belief in both bhakti and sufi ideas.

Goswami Tulsidas’ doctrine is derived from Ramanuja through Ramananda. Like him, he believes in a supreme personal God, i.e., Saguna not in Nirguna Brahman of Shankaracharya – the Lord Himself took the human form, and became incarnate, for the blessing of mankind, as Rama. The body is therefore to be honored, not despised. Tulsi venerates the whole Hindu pantheon, and is especially careful to give Shiva or Mahadeva his due, and to point out that there is no inconsistency between devotion to Rama and attachment to Shiva. But the practical end of all his writings is to inculcate bhakti addressed to Rama as the great means of salvation and emancipation from the chain of births and deaths, a salvation which is available to everyone. His particular style of writing is perhaps well-described in this quotation from Dr. George A. Grierson, an early-20th-century translator and anthologist of vernacular Hindi literature, who says the following of the Ramcharitmanas: “… no one can read it in the original without being impressed by it as the work of a great genius. Its style varies with each subject. There is the deep pathos of the scene in which is described Rama`s farewell to his mother; the rugged language depicting the horrors of the battlefield – a torrent of harsh sounds clashing against each other and reverberating from phrase to phrase; and, as occasion requires, a sententious, aphoristic method of narrative, teeming with similes drawn from nature herself, and not from the traditions of the schools. His characters, too, live and move with all the dignity of an heroic age. Each is a real being, with a well-defined personality. Rama, perhaps too perfect to enlist all our sympathies; his impetuous and loving brother Lakshmana; the tender, constant Bharata; Sita, the ideal of an Indian wife and mother; Ravana, destined to failure, and fighting with all his demon force against his destiny, the Satan of the epic. All these are characters as lifelike and distinct as any in occidental literature.”

My bottom line is: I would have liked BOTH these folks – spending time back and forth with each, to make life more interesting!

Back to you, sir, AT LAST!

(Collapsing, getting up, and heading for lunch.)

Beej
Good choice of verses. The dangerous one is about freedom for women.. Throughout Ramcharitmanas Tulsidas shows himself to be a misogynist essentially(though he was generally respectful of his Sita). He clearly had problems with women- the question is whether his wife or mother-in-law was the root cause :).

In general, this is a brave attempt to get a doha/cchand like meter in English, which one can imagine is quite difficult - good luck with getting both the grammer and the poetic rhythm right. Perhaps you don`t need rhyming as well, as someone said.

To convey the essential meaning of the ``loaded`` vocabulary of the original while replicating not only the cadence is difficult too, I guess. The language has to be clear enough for someone coming cold to this to make sense of it, since concepts like maya/detachment/stillness of senses/vivek etc are not commonly understood.

Add to that having to transplant the overflowing sentiment of Tulsi. So- full marks to you for bravery in courting disaster.


Anyway, in straight reading of the Avadhi(which I don`t know) as a layman, I found some of the translations problematic so I looked at a Gita Press translation.


Some major quibbles:

{grihi bi-rati rut harash-jus, Vishnu bhagat kahun dekhi}

No more deadpan – now full of glee
Like Vishnu, when – sees devotee


--It is a `grihi` or `householder`, free from worldly desires, who is happy to see a Vishnu bhakt.



{harit-bhoomi trin-sankul, samujhi parahin nahin punth}

This ground all same – as grass grows free
All land looks green – no path to see

{jimi pakhund vivaad-te, loopt hohin sad-granth}

Like dogmas and rituals – they hide
All knowledge that – lies deep inside


--inside holy books. Just like unchecked grass hides the paths, the paakhund vivaad hides the knowledge inside the sad-granth(holy books).




{urk-jawas paat janu bhayaoo, jus suraaj khal uddwam gayaoo}

But trees, for some – not one leaf blade
When wicked rule – efforts not made


-- `suraaj` is good government, so it is not `when wicked rule` at all.

According to Gita Press `The leaves of the Aka and Javasa plants have fallen off even as under a good government, the plans of the wicked come to naught`



{sasi sampann soh mahi kaisi, up-kaari kai sampati jaisi}
All earth now rich – and beauty treads
As wealth earned for – altruistic deeds


--You left out a verse after that one:
{Nisi tam ghan khadhyot biraaja, janu dambhih kar mila samaja}

``In the thick darkness of the night, fireflies gleam like a gathering of hypocrites``




{Dekhiaat chakra-waak khug nahin, kalahin payee jimi dharma parahin}

And love-birds are – not seen around
So lost is faith – discords when hound


--kalahin - Kalayug. The Chakravaka birds are no more to be seen, just as virtues disappear with onset of the Kali Age. If you meant to omit the Kali Yug reference, OK then.




{Kabahun diwas mahan nibid tum, kabahunk pragat patang}

At times, the day – looks dark, as dusk
Yet lights it up – when sun does lurk

{binasain upajat gyan jimi, payee kusang susang}

So knowledge – will enhance, or not
As band would we – with good, or rot


--That knowledge is obscured in kusang(bad company), and manifest in susang( good company) doesn`t come through in translation.




Some minor quibbles

- Bees not wasps.
- beloved better than darling.
- forgo not the right part of speech, a noun is needed there.
-`khal ki preet` is `friendship/love of the wicked` not wicked love


{nav pallav bhaye bitap aneka, saadhak man jus mile viveka}

And look, new leaf – on trees abound
Good judgment by – true trainee found

-saadhak is one who strives. Seeker might be closer than trainee.



{bibidh jantu sankul mahi bhraja, praja baadh jimi payee suraja}
Many creatures, large – and small, arrive
In freedom, masses – live and thrive

-again, suraaj is good government, not zactly freedom.

#17 PMishra2 (parts)

[…the author who, of course, is either considered a male-chauvinist demon or a great bhakta and avatar of valmiki. What is your opinion of him?]

I gave a short answer earlier. He was a product of his times – with some of the biases of those times – which were not considered a big deal BACK THEN, but are obviously so now – with more enlightenment having set in. However, most people pay little REAL-TIME attention to his (now) controversial remarks in the Ramcharitmanas – except perhaps for quoting those for purposes of their own.

In terms of the individual that he was – he might even be considered a modern-day psychiatrist’s delight. (Whatever happened to that S3? (For once, I wish I had not scared him away like a “chooha”!)) I am sure they would LOVE to have him flat on his fanny parked on a couch, recounting his experiences in life discussing – for example, the turmoil he underwent when abandoned by parents, not cared for by relatives, bossed around by saadhus, and perhaps most importantly – taken to task by his wife.

The latter incident was the most significant in terms of his turning his focus solely to Rama, although he apparently had a devotee streak since early on.

Here are some “juicy” details (mostly for other interactors) on what drove Tulsidas to become what he became famous for.

Tulsidas, married to Ratnavati, was so attached to her that he could not bear even a moment’s separation. Apparently, she did not have an equally passionate and active style of companionship for it appears that she set a plot of sorts – her brother came visiting and she sent Tulsidas to fetch some vegetables in the marketplace – yeah, that old “get those vegetables” ruse – and when the poor guy returned, toiling under those loads of groceries, she had disappeared – with her brother, to visit her parents. Can you imagine what the poor guy must have gone through!

So, our man braves the stormy weather and goes after her. Apparently, to cross the swollen river, he grabs a floating bull’s carcass. When he gets to his in-law’s place, he climbs a vine or so (which apparently was a snake – one of those slithering things, you know) to enter her room. All of this he does without being aware that he is doing it – so focused is he on her! Far worse than a sixteenth century version of Romeo and Juliet, I tell you!

And then she lets him have it, of course! He says – that’s it! I’m going to Rama! The rest, of course, is history of sorts.

All this, and a lot more of the details are available at various web-sites including these: Tulsidas, Chronicler of the Ramayana, a site on poets and seers, and other sites.

More to follow... (How could y`all EVER guess?!!!)

Re#22 khamkhwa

[11 out of 19....beej k singh...you talk too much...]

My dear, I think it is okay to talk too much as long as one is not talking ``khamkhwah``.

Have you seen some of my interacts?!! (Or more accurately, measured them?)

Seriously, some of my interacts are just too long - but I like them that way (it has been said that brevity is the soul of the wit and there appears to be widespread agreement among chowkies that this interactor is both soulless and witless) - and so I need to break them into shorter pieces so that people can read the ones that applies to a specific part of the query.

My long and very frequent interacts are here to stay - and have been for a while - so get used to them! Yeah!

SO, SO SOWWYY!

....lemme make it 12 outta 22...54.54%....

aap hi likho
aap hi paRho
aur aap hi bolo
jai ho hamaar

11 out of 19....beej k singh...you talk too much...

#15 Burpinder (parts)
#16 vagabond786

Re: (your comments on poetry)

Please note my disclaimers in #3 and the additional explanations in #6 – this is an attempt at translation of a portion of Ramcharitmanas. The “poetry” or the flow of thoughts if you would like to refer it as such – was the Goswami’s – whose descendants (if only there had been any, alas!) would have been rolling in money – if only he had copyrighted the work back then – if only copyright laws had existed back then – if only LAWS had existed back then ….., etc.

Too many ‘if only’s, of course!

Any attempt at translation of a work like this (even portions) is a guaranteed failure, in my view – because really there is no way to communicate the essence exactly. Period.

The best one can do is to communicate what is one’s OWN perception of that essence – using the available tools in one’s own possession! Putting rhyme in there imposes additional but necessary compromises – and also individualizes it perhaps too much!

As regards the “poet-like” quality of the original work – most people who like to read the original enjoy it a LOT – perhaps a lot more than any contemporary pieces of literature. For your information, it is worthwhile pointing out that the Goswami never considered himself a poet.

For example, according to one web site:

“Tulasi … declares in the Manasa that he is no poet and he is imperfect and only sings the excellence of Rama according to his poor wit and understanding. This is the case in his other works Gitavali (1571), Kavitavali (1612), Barvairamayana (1612) and one of the best works, Vinaya Patrika (request to Rama).”

You get the picture, or do you?

Re#17 PMishra2

My dear Mishra jee,

Arrey bhai, kahan chhupe hue the aap abhee tuk?

Here I was – feeling sadder by the minute – and how slowly those minutes tick by – not a single serious question on this work – and lo and behold – I get your interact!

Dear Mishra-jee, YOU are the man after my own heart!

To satisfactorily address your questions, I must first cover a bit of background – perhaps more for the sake of others than for you. So, please bear this wear with me.

As you are well aware, although it is revered as an account of the life of Lord Rama, the Ramcharitmanas is not treated by the vast majority of masses like a book of religious commands, instructions, guidelines, or even tips – in the way for example, the Holy Bible is. It is just one interpretation of how Lord Rama lived his life – it’s Tulsidas’ account – who was obviously not an eye witness. Most people who read it, they just enjoy reading and singing it – I know I do, perhaps you do too – usually and especially on auspicious occasions.

It is quite well recognized that this Book contains a few controversial comments by Tulsidas – some of them reflect his own prejudices or those which prevailed in the society at large at the time. These included the treatment of the “low” castes and the stereotyping of women – these were and perhaps to some extent remain the unsavory aspects of our society, even in this twenty-first century, as can be evidenced on several contemporary boards.

The stereotyping of women perhaps was stronger in this instance because of Tulsidas’ own unfortunate experience – he left home after being lectured by his wife on why he should have devoted his attention to God instead of her body of flesh – this after Tulsidas had risked his life to get to her – legend has it that he crossed a swollen river by grabbing on to a bloated dead-body in order to keep afloat. I am not too knowledgeable in this area, but I am sure there are others here who can fill in more details.

The fact remains that most readers just love this Book, while few would deny some of its quirks – certain individual statements that lend themselves to criticism at the present time – most prefer to simply disregard them! That’s how it is, at the present time.

More to follow…