Get off her back…

#430, Khamkhwa {``the ``author`` forgot to add his promise to work towards reunification of pakistan into india to make ``Bharatmata`` complete... ``}

And you will go to great lengths to make a total fool and a complete nuisance out of yourself. :) You will twist anything, including yourself, just to get constipation, won`t you?

g. schol in engg was relatively cushy in mid-eighties..you got assistantship of 1000-1200 pm, a few hundred more from indian mafia in computer labs, and if you were in east or west coast, moon-lighting at $10-15/hr tax free as a grunt working in some professors startup...good experience. as a result most engg PIGS (poor indian grad students) lived a happy comfortable life based on 4 pillars..department-apartment-advisor and budwieser..even had good money for air-tickets, an old car, and spring-break using peoples-express

Re: # 412

What nonsense theories our doc has to offer:

Anyone having an idea about the classical military hierarchy knows that before you become Generals you have to remain majors and lt cols for a long period of time...................and to theorize that when they get promoted one rank they suddenly become corrupt and well off is just unbelievable theory................tell me all ye doctors in obfuscation how many years does an officer remain a General before retirement?.........may be not more that 3 years on an average?...........so the same officer remains a honest, hard working chap for 8 years......turns into a dishonest and rich person when he gets promoted?

What fantastic stories and generalizations are constructed around this nonsense thesis??We can see megalomaniac brain of the brilliant Pakistani Rommel in action spewing propoganda....................................................

Re: Harimau #434

Sorry, should have said Category I research schools usually have a lot of money. I was in Economics and we had money because all the Business majors had to take micro and macro with us before they could apply to the business school; usually had about 500+ kids taking each class per semester; paid for a lot of TAs!!

When my brother and I went to the US, the competition was relatively easy; not like it is now, and 1600 SATs were unheard of. I`d like to think that I would still have been able to get in, with money, but now I`m not so sure....

I knew quite a few Indian students like the ones you describe; honestly, I`m not sure I could have lived that way. My dept was much more generous than many (PoliSci, IR and Soc were awful; so were some of the Engineering depts with their Master`s students) and so we had a comparatively cushy life--or as cushy as a grad student`s stipend lets it!.

Ref dost-mittar #406

[harimou:

``That is the result of equal educational opportunity because of democracy.``

I agree if you are talking about higher education. There is no equality at school level.]

No need. You enroll in one of those coaching institutions like Agarwal Institute or Brilliant Tutorials to prepare for the IIT entrance exams. With that kind of preparation, one is guaranteed admission if not into the IITs at least into some dumb-shit engineering college. If you guys are willing to stomach a steady diet of idli-dosa and rice and sambhar, Tamil Nadu has plenty of vacancies in engineering colleges all for those with enough money to pay for it.

Nobody goes to state-run schools in Tamil Nadu anymore. Everybody is sending his kid to an English-medium school no matter what it costs. Yes, if you are pulling a rickshaw (not really, since hand-drawn rickshawa are outlawed in Tamil Nadu!) your child might go to a government school but even the lower middle-class has given up on Tamil-medium education.

[In my time, the govt. allowed someone going abroad a foreign exchange of only eight dollars.]

I know the routine... I went through it myself.

Ref fuzair #429

[For graduate work, it really depends upon which university you go to. State ones are usually quite stingy and you often have to pay for a semester or two before you can get any kind of an assistantship. Private ones usually have much more money for their graduate students.]

Really depends on how much money the professors bring in on research grants. You will find quite a few state schools (Ohio State, Penn State, U of Maryland, for instance, the entire Univ of California system) flush with research assistantships.

[As an undergrad, I had a full ride scholarship for all four years. My brother, the brains of the family, had his pick of schools in the US, literally. He had a low single digit score in his O levels (back when they still gave out points and not just letter grades) and left before finishing his As, on the strength of his SAT, Achievement and O levels. He went to an Ivy League school that paid for everything...]

Kids from India who score 1600 in SAT (there are a couple in Tamil Nadu alone every year) get admission in their choice of Ivy League (NOT Rutgers!) schools with all expenses paid. Kids with good grades from a variety of non-descript engineering colleges get admission to the MS/PhD program. Though these guys are generally denied financial aid upon admission for at least the first semester, the track record of Indian students is so good that most get an assistantship within the first month. It helps when you are seen as part of the eager-beaver crowd of Indian grunts willing to do whatever it takes to keep the research projects on track.

[The better universities have a lot of money, for both undergrads and grads, for really good students.]

But you had better be really really good to be able to snag any of the money.

[I also know of quite a few people who have gone the route you describe but, no offense, they all went to places like UT Arlington or North Oklahoma State or some such school.]

What is that place in Stillwater, OK? I understand a Pakistani who flunked out of that school is running a pizza joint which is patonized by all the Indians. PhD graduations are celebrated by (vegetarian) pizza and Coke! Talk about poor graduate students!

But what surprises me is that places like Utah State Univ in Provo, UT have about 200 Indian students. Where I studied, there were 25! And it was/is a far better (private) school than Utah State. At that time, Utah State probably didn`t have a single foreign student.

Re: #430 by khamkhwa

I have watched various interviews of the average man on the street in pakistan, as well as read many newspaper articles in this regard.

There seems to be a HUGELY popular myth in Pakistan - that India would absolutely LOVE to take over Pakistan.

The reality, of course is that NOTHING could be further from the truth. Getting PoK back might be popular, depending on how it is presented to the public. But the rest of Pakistan? Whichever Indian administration suggests it will never win any election again.

What`s a `fancy hajaam`??.The author of this article seems to be a very complicated person.

Mr. Chauhan #428 No doubt the Pakistan Military should award you a Sitara-i-Juraat for speaking out on its behalf. But seriously, I agree that the foundations for military rule in Pakistan were laid when it was fashionable to have dictators. And some dictators did good for their country - like Park of S. Korea, or the role played by the japanese military overlords during the Meiji Restoration that built modern Japan. In Pakistan`s case, we also inherited strong military influence, given the military traditions particularly of the frontier, baluchistan and the panjab - the only jobs considered fit for a man used to be farming and soldiering.

But all that is past now. The day of the dictators and kings is over. And the sooner musharaff gets it, the better off we will all be.

Re: # 428
[The author abhors and condemns all acts of rape, violence, discrimination, or anything that Mr. Temporal finds distasteful - including using tragedies to further one`s insidious political agenda.]

...the ``author`` forgot to add his promise to work towards reunification of pakistan into india to make ``Bharatmata`` complete...

Romair,

For graduate work, it really depends upon which university you go to. State ones are usually quite stingy and you often have to pay for a semester or two before you can get any kind of an assistantship. Private ones usually have much more money for their graduate students. Its also much easier to get a money for a Ph.d than it is for a Masters; the Masters route is what you describe, even in private schools. I had 4 years of TAship (all tuition and $12,000/year for room and board) and a Dissertation fellowship my fifth year. As an undergrad, I had a full ride scholarship for all four years. My brother, the brains of the family, had his pick of schools in the US, literally. He had a low single digit score in his O levels (back when they still gave out points and not just letter grades) and left before finishing his As, on the strength of his SAT, Achievement and O levels. He went to an Ivy League school that paid for everything, including a ticket home every two years (not sure about this last perk; I think thats what he had, but he had one heck of a sweet deal; even paid for his health insurance!). The better universities have a lot of money, for both undergrads and grads, for really good students.

I also know of quite a few people who have gone the route you describe but, no offense, they all went to places like UT Arlington or North Oklahoma State or some such school.

Tahmed Sahib #424 {I am pro-military as long as the military conducts its necessary role of ensuring the defense of the nation, and on that count it deserves credit for ensuring indian ambitions at being the neighborhood heavy end where the pakistani border starts. However, the military has betrayed the trust of the nation by not upholding the constitution``}

Sir, let me congratulate you on posting #424, which is a lot better than the #420 character here!

In defense of Pakistan`s military, may I suggest that the poor army is a victim of fashion? Yes, back in the 50s and 60s when Pakistan made the fateful decision to go the military route, it was considered fashionable to have a dictator - Egypt, most of Latin America, even Portugal and Spain, not to mention Turkey and several Southeast Asian nations were making quick strides in development and education - all because of their military governments. Even some major democracies were calling in their war heroes - US and France, e.g. Only India was languishing under a stale democracy - slow, corrupt, and inefficient. But along with huge cars, hula hoops, and the twist, military dictatorships started to get stale starting in the 70s.

Of course, Pakistan by this time was addicted to strong leadership, efficient bureaucracy, and rapid development. Having rid itself of its less efficient and darker half and then executing the architect of that load shedding, Pakistan raced into the 80s with a strong, handsome, and heavily-medaled leader in charge. India was too busy blowing up places of worship and killing its minorities by the thousands. But the commitment to democracy continued unabated, despite the lack of dividends. Then, when the noble leader went to heaven following a divinely-orchestrated aerial accident, Pakistan constructed a ``democratic`` facade to show the world it had class, all the while practicing its long-cherished militancy in secret. A pair of young, brilliant, and completely honest rich kids took the helm, while the real controls were in the engine room staffed by even more brilliant and totally honest angels in uniform.

The young pair learned to share, take turns, and quickly mastered the art of off-shore investing. It seemed that everyone was leaving Pakistan - doctors, capital, engineers, and even ex-military types with their heavy commissions (no not the military type, but the sales type!) for ``investing`` abroad. With a dwindling population of literate people and even a more alarming reduction in capital resources, the always-reliable military jumped into the arena once more and saved the nation from death by emigration. This of course, was preceded by an aerial courtship dance involving high-altitude game of chicken to see which would hold out longer, the fuel in the plane or the bladder of the head soldier.

To his credit, el presidente, halted the emigration by encouraging the exile of the young pair of politicians. He installed the NAB regimen and the Paki rupee stabilized around Rs 59-60 per $1 US - something it has done consistently since, while most pundits were predicting a Rs 100 to $1 US rate in 1999. El presidente improved the economy, steered the ship clear of the icebergs of war, Tally Bans, Al Kayda, and Indian military posturing. But it was too late, Indian democracy had yielded tremendous dividends - institutions, education, employment, exports, high-tech environment, growing cities, and a mushrooming economy with a blossoming middle class. All Pakistan had left were the IOUs, loans, and foreign deposit receipts carefully collected by the young pair of exiles.

Six years later, things are a resounding mix of good and bad. Too much rape, not enough compassion. Too much hate, not enough love. Too much materialism, not enough spirituality. Too much religion, not enough God. Too much violence, not enough security. Too many madrassas, not enough literacy. Too many crocodiles, not enough tears.

NOTE: The above is not to be misconstrued as an accurate history of Pakistan, India, or anywhere else. It is a satire (Did you hear that, Tempy?) and not to be taken too seriously and defintely not literally or even rationally. Remarks about rape are not intended to show insensitivity. The author abhors and condemns all acts of rape, violence, discrimination, or anything that Mr. Temporal finds distasteful - including using tragedies to further one`s insidious political agenda.

romair: as a matter of fact, there are plenty of scholarships offered by the US to pakistan. you wouldnt know about them, being in the military. i could have taken a scholarship to do a PhD in demographics that was available to a research institute in pakistan where i worked 6 months as my first job after my MA. i didnt take it since i didnt see myself doing demography research all my life. my brother received a scholarship for a masters in engineering in germany, which he took. and the vast number of pakistanis - many well established in the US and elsewhere - of course simply didnt need any scholarships. And in fact, the average pakistani emigrant is in fact from poor economic households (I wont call them ``lower class``, since in my book ``class`` has nothing to do with economic wealth) starting with the mirpur emigrants to UK in the 1960`s, and including the vast majority of immigrants in europe and the middle east and the US today.

Dost-mittar #425: I don`t know about India, but in Pakistan, there aren`t that many scholarships offered. Though the number is increasing now. The only scholarships I know of were the ones, through govt. assistance of S&T, or some that were offered directly to the military, at no cost, during the Afghan war. Plus a few other here and there......

I don`t know what a Ford scholarship is, but if you got one, then that separates you from the normal students, like the rest of us. You may not be Abdus Salam, but you are above-average.......

In Pakistan, just to get a student visa, one has to first show a lot of family income and bank accounts. That, itself, puts one in the upper-middle class. Then one has to pay for the ticket. Then the initial accomodations. Then the first semester or two, when one does not have teaching assistantship. Then books, room boarding etc. No middle class person can afford this, without a scholarship like yours. There are only 100 or so such scholarships, that I know of, given out, like that in Pakistan, per year. While there are thousands of Pakistani students in USA alone.......And more in UK, Australia, Turkey etc.

I had expenses for around nine months. That combined with my assistantship, combined with my odd jobs, etc. got me through the program, in a couple of years. However a normal middle class person couldn`t have afforded an airline ticket......nor would he/she have even gotten a visa.......

I did notice that a lot of Indian students, with me, seemed to be from more middle(r) class families. But the Pakistanis, other htan the odd few on full scholarships, were all upper-middle class in Masters. And very upper class in Bachelors.........

Re: romair # 412
I attended two schools in the US and did not pay a dime for my education. You get most of you tuition fee waived if you make it to the deans list and the rest you can get through the various scholarships available.
I had one advantage, my sister attended the same school and both my parents had attended the same school.

Regards,

Faruk

Romair#413:

I understand that universities are not as generous now as they were back then. But for a reasonably intelligent student at a good Indian institution like Delhi School of Economics, with good marks and letters of recommendation from an alumni of an American university, it was not too hard back then to get admission and financial assistance from graduate schools in the U.S. In my case, my Ford fellowship also provided my air fare and the amount was suficient for me to even send some remittance from my allowance to my parents in India.

Romair: ``What I have found odd is how anti-military tahmad, hamidm (and nazarhayatkhan) happen to be. Even though they are the ones, on this site, who are, by far, the biggest beneficiaries of the Pakistan military`s goodwill and finances.``

You need to understand that the military is there to serve Pakistan, not vice versa.

I am pro-military as long as the military conducts its necessary role of ensuring the defense of the nation, and on that count it deserves credit for ensuring indian ambitions at being the neighborhood heavy end where the pakistani border starts. However, the military has betrayed the trust of the nation by not upholding the constitution. In the US military, I understand the oath taken by officers is to uphold the consitution - I wonder if you were ever asked to take a similar oath in PMA (?) And of course, not specifically taking that oath does not absolve any military personnel from their over-all duty of upholding the constitution.

As for the salary my father drew from the military that paid for my school and college education in Pakistan - the source of funding was not the military but the Pakistani nation. Again, you put the cart before the horse when you think the military magically creates funds out of thin air.

#421 by Romair on September 20, 2005 10:48am PT

Captain clueless, the clueless ex-PAF grease monkey, is trying to libel NHK, a genuine fighter jock and a class act...He now acts like a man of the people, average abdul paki, if you will...

The Paki military has rigged the system so that it`s own men have the opportunity to make 500 million Rs..If you weren`t able to get your hands on some of that money, it means you are too stupid to come up in a rigged system...

#421 {``I was not retired. I was resigned, i.e. I cannot be called Captain (retired) Romair. ``}

A few more questions, SIR. :)
Permission to come on board, Sir.
What was the name of the ship under your command, Captain Romair? PNS Bounty?
Who resigned you?

khamkhwa #420: ``... it`s hard to imagine a lowly captain fighting high level officers of pakistan army and not being court martialed....delusion or jamaican weed...?``

Actually I was nearly court-martialled. I am still not allowed to use my rank, nor do I get any benefits or pension. I was not retired. I was resigned, i.e. I cannot be called Captain (retired) Romair. I am simply civilian Romair. Nor was I given an NOC, which is required to work in any other govt. job in Pakistan, after leaving the military. Which is why I left for North America..........Hence if I go back today, I cannot technically work for the govt.

But under the govts. desparation to bring in IT into Pakistan, they seem to now have forgiven and forgotten........And interestingly, the same batchmates of NHK, who were after me, now, having made their fortunes as retired generals through their military real estate ventures, are showing interest in investing in my ideas. Nothing brings people close like business!!

I was under mess-arrest (like house arrest) for a while.....But the military still has some rules and regulations and laws. And it does honor them, to a great deal. If you make your arguments, within those rules and regulations, technically, you can be kicked around, but not court-martialled. So they could never build a technical case against me that was strong enough to court martial. Even though they threatened me, a lot...........

The military also has various avenues, designed for, ``lowly`` Captains to object to, and fight the hierarchy. Any Captain, at any time, can write letters to the headquarters, complaining about anything, from the taste of chicken in the mess hall, to their General`s attitude (or corruption). It is called Redressal of Grievances and has to be, by law, processed within 14 days. I did that a lot. No one does it, because it basically means an end of one`s career............which is exactly what happened to me.........with or without the jamcian weed.......

romair says...and i quote...;)

[A better part of my career was spent fighting Brigadiers and Generals amongst NazarHayatKhan`s batchmates.]

... it`s hard to imagine a lowly captain fighting high level officers of pakistan army and not being court martialed....delusion or jamaican weed...?

Dost-mittar #413: ``Wrong! I am no Abdus Salam``

Perhaps you are Abdus Salam and just don`t know it.

``Back then, there were a number of scholarships, such as Fulbright and Ford fellowships available to foreign students. There were also several research/teaching assistantships available. In fact, most of the Indian foreign students I knew at that time had an assistance of some kind or another.``

Fulbright scholarships, and all other such scholarships, go to a very tiny number of people. One can count them on one`s fingertips. Maybe one two sons of Generals would get such a scholarship........

The rest rely on teaching/research assistantships. And in most universities, one has to spend a semester or two before one gets these. During that time, one can only working outside the university if one does so illegally, and even those jobs don`t pay much. I had both a teaching and research assistantship, and worked odd jobs. I could work a combined maximum of 20 hours a week. And was paid $10/hr. That is $600/month, after taxes. My tuition was reduced to in-State tuition. But that was still $110/credit hour (and I was in cheap university).

How can someone make $600/month and pay for tuition, room, boarding, clothes, books etc. An average single graduate book costs around $75. Even if one works at McDonalds, it still doesn`t pay enough. At the very least, one needs full finances for the first semester, plus airfare, visa costs, etc. No middle class person in Pakistan can afford that........If they could, they would all be in the USA, as students.........

And those who went to USA as Bachelors students, are from very rich families. Because they have to pay out-of-state tuition, which alone is very high. And cannot get even teaching assistantships. I could never have afforded it. Neither could my family. Most undergrad Pakistani kids are from Dubai etc. While some rich kids from Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad are there, as well...........

99% of Pakistanis doing undergrad in USA are from very wealthy famlies (whether they admit it or not). 1% have the scholarships, from average famlies. 90% of those in Masters are from upper middle class, though not necessarily extremely wealthy, families (whether they admit it or not). 10% have full or partial scholarships........

It may be different for Indians. But that is how it is from Pakistanis. How many Pakistanis (myself included) on Chowk do you see from remote villages, or even small cities.......Why are they all living in upper-class neighborhoods in Lahore, Karachi, and Islamabad, with access to their parent`s (or their own) Hondas, Toyotas and Pajeros.......

As much as all of us Pakistanis, on Chowk, try to portray ourselves as the average middle-class Pakistani, we, as a group, are the wealthy elite of Pakistan. The group that the middle-class generally dislikes.

The only place where I saw and lived amongst the true middle-class of Pakistan, was in my military days. Most of my colleagues came from families, which did not own a car and had never been outside Pakistan. Those of them who will retire before Brigadier, will remain in that category. The 2-3% who make it beyond that rank will, through the assistance of the military, join the upper-middle class and send their kids to the USA....

Amongst my Pakistani colleague students in USA, hardly any were from the middle class.......

Re: # 412

``No US university will pay for everything, unless one is Abdus Salam. Just the room and boarding in USA costs a fortune. Not to mention the airline ticket.....``

most US university waive tutions, give assistantship (teaching/research). some do get fellowship (i.e. no work at all). most (if not all) desis stay off campus, which is cheaper than on-campus.
i know of one university which paid for air travel to just bring the student for an interview/orientation.

mash`allah this board has turned into a let`s pat ourselves on the back because we did this or that. . . . and the usual generalizations.

having worked in university departments and been involved in graduate admissions, i know that many indian students apply for fellowships/support and without that support, they cannot afford to attend university. this is true whether they are in the military, or middle class. and at least in the uni where i worked, a fellowship paid for your entire tuition and included a monthly stipend. and that was not very much. . . . i know graduate students, male and female, who live in large groups in a one-bedroom apartment (five to a room for example) because that is all they can afford.

and i know something of what fuzair is speaking of, because i know pakistanis who come from upper-middle class families who have supported themselves by working janitorial jobs or maintenance jobs around campus -- children of business owners. those who do not work or do not have to work and come from pakistan or india are a small minority, and quite frankly i don`t understand what the huge need for making such generalizations is.

#394, {``Yes, but what What would you say if it`s true?
If you google this site you`ll see that he has mentioned it before as well (in ``Running Naked``).
``}

If true, then I would say that the practce of bayoneting straw dummies made to resemble saradarjis is racist, despicable, and displays an excessive amount of wishful thinking. Bayoneting with or without dummies while ``Running Naked`` is in the stupid category. :)

#410 by fuzair on September 20, 2005 8:57am PT

Indian army having dogs is the same as the children of paki army officers having schools with petting zoos(while abdul paki has no choice but to send his son to a saudi funded madrassah)?

dog in one article..dog in another article...100% match..google the paki mind ain`t....

Subroto #401:``So is the Pak army really this great money making concern then?``

Yes, it is and it has been. But only at senior ranks. At the very least, the senior officers and their families are looked after, quite well, even without being corrupt........

I know the Pakistani military, of all generations, far far too well. I know its insides. You could consider me the Pervez Hoodbhoy of the military Captains. An inside the military activist. A better part of my career was spent fighting Brigadiers and Generals amongst NazarHayatKhan`s batchmates. I have very little respect for most of them, as a group (though I have a hell of a lot of respect for the hawaldars and the captains and majors). Which is why I did not last, too long...........

There are two phenomenons rampant amongst military senior officers (and their kids) in Pakistan:

1. ``The institution is corrupt, but, thank God, neither me, nor my father, is/was corrupt`` phenomenon (the tahmad/hamidm phenomenon)

2. Benefiting extensively from the military, while in service or as a civilian, yet heavily criticizing it (the nazarhayat khan phenomenon)

Fuzair does not criticize the miltiary much, so he is in neither category.........

Everyone from Brigadier and above, of any generation, in the Pakistani military, is quite well-off. And those from Col and above, who were given cushy civilian positions (a minority amongst Cols.) are well off also. Infact, the furthur back one goes, the better off the officers were........

Just take a look around you. And see where they or their kids are sitting. How can so many of them be sitting in the USA, with US education, without being well-off in Pakistan. I worked as labor in the USA, while studying, and I know it doesn`t pay, ``that`` well. And every single army-kid cannot get a full scholarship, with room and boarding paid, in the USA.

This is, in no way, to imply that our resident Chowk army-wallahs are corrupt, or their parents were corrupt. It is just to imply that the military, ``looked after`` them and their parents well. There is nothing wrong with that, nor is their anything to be ashamed of. If one does a job well, one should be well looked after...........

However, one has to accept that fact, that if everyone claims that, they or their father, at senior ranks, is not corrupt in the military, then how can the same people claim that the military is corrupt, as a whole. If everyone`s father is, individually, honest, then the whole institution is collectively honest. However, if certain individuals, themselves, who are from military families, are claiming that the Army is corrupt, then from a random statistical sample of three or four families, at least one would have to have been corrupt..........

Romair#412:

``No US university will pay for everything, unless one is Abdus Salam.``

Wrong! I am no Abdus Salam and I was paid $220 per month plus free tuition and expenses back in 1966 when a 2-bedroom apartment cost $110 which could be shared by 2-3 students. Back then, there were a number of scholarships, such as Fulbright and Ford fellowships available to foreign students. There were also several research/teaching assistantships available. In fact, most of the Indian foreign students I knew at that time had an assistance of some kind or another.

I am talking here of graduate students. Unlike now, there were very few Indian undergraduate students at that time.

Fuzair #404: ``So the fact that my parents made huge sacrifices for their children`s education is somehow ``proof,`` as you imply, that my father was corrupt?``

I never implied that your, tahmad, or hamidm mian`s fathers were corrupt, as very senior officers in the Army. For all I know, they may be the most honest people in the world......

At the same time, I have never bought into the argument that people from average backgrounds in Pakistan can come to the USA, wash dishes and get an education. I have gone through that whole cycle of washing dishes etc. myself, also. As have most desis. It doesn`t mean I am from the middle class of Pakistan. No US university will pay for everything, unless one is Abdus Salam. Just the room and boarding in USA costs a fortune. Not to mention the airline ticket.....Only upper-midddle class families can afford it........

The extremely tiny upper class (feudals, big businessmen etc.) of Pakistan has kids in USA who don`t have the work. The slightly larger upper-middle class has kids in USA who have to work. Everyone else can never dream of sending their kids to the USA. Less than 1% of Pakistan has an Internet connection at home. And far less than 1% have a foreign education. So all of us on Chowk are in the top .05% of Pakistan. Doesn`t matter whether we had to work as waiters or dishwashers.........

Based on this Pakistan military officer class can be divided into three groups:

- Lt. Col and below: these guys are the slaves of the military. They do all the work and live hand to mouth, and remain in the middle-class
- Brigadiers and above: these guys are the son-in-laws of the military. There are only a handful of them at any one point. The corrupt amongst them make a huge fortune and join the upper-class. The remaining are, ``taken well care of`` by the military. A plot or two here, a foreign assignment there, a position in PIA or Civil Services there, etc. They are in the upperr-middle class

Anyone who has a son or daughter with a US education, is a wealthy man in Pakistan..........with or without dishwashing. Hence I am always amazed when individuals on Chowk try to emphasize their, ``humble`` family statuses :-)

Any Brig from yours, tahmad and hamidm`s parents` generation was quite well off, even without being corrupt. They were very well looked after by the military. I personally know far too many..........

What I have found odd is how anti-military tahmad, hamidm (and nazarhayatkhan) happen to be. Even though they are the ones, on this site, who are, by far, the biggest beneficiaries of the Pakistan military`s goodwill and finances. The day I resigned, I was in debt, with no job and no future. Yet I am not as anti-military (though I am very anti-Brig and above) as them........

You stupid army brats ....

All you had to do was get an h1B .... you would have started off with US$ 60,000/- a year, at the minimum......That`s what all of us code-coolies did - 60K from the day one :)... No dishwashing, no ditch-digging .... Not that there is anything wrong with dishwashing or ditch-digging :)

Re: Arjun #407

I am not defending the obscene level of ostentatiousness described in this story but Hamidm, Tahmed and I are from a different generation than what you are talking about. My father was commissioned well before the 1960s and was long retired by the time the current crop of corp commanders were even in the running for their first star. In our time, the Army schools were almost as much of a joke (Cadet Colleges excepted) as the regular schools and there were no petting zoos or things of that sort.

Now, we did have access to the Blue Lagoon swimming pool in Pindi and I learnt to play tennis and squash in the Officers Mess and I did have four polo ponies growing up (Seven Eighters zindabad!), BUT Indian officers` brats have all this and more! Check out the pack of hounds the Indian Army keeps....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/19/wooty19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/19/ixworld.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3907861.stm

So piss off ;-)

Re: #406 DM

Stuka was only a waiter. Tsk, tsk, I can top that easily. In my years here in the US, I`ve worked as a dishwasher/busboy (one step lower than a waiter) and janitor (the house was a Self-Op and the residents had to do the work; since these weren`t really popular jobs, they paid very well comparatively speaking). This was in addition to my ``regular`` job shelving books in the library.

In grad school (summers) I worked as a plumber`s assistant/chief ditch digger since I could only work oncampus and left it too late to get one of the cushy jobs in the computer lab (which was run by an Indian mafia anyway; no way I would have gotten a job there!). Actually, I really wanted this job because, almost 15 years ago, it paid $7/hr and 30 hrs/week, and I was finished for the day early. My first summer as a ditch digger was great--I lost about 15 lbs and was fitter than I had been in years.

Unlike some of the professional advocates for the poor and the downtrodden on Chowk, I`ve actually worked at some fairly menial jobs in my time. Thats one of the reasons why I have nothing but contempt for so many of these professional whiners.

Re: # 406 dostmittar

``Someone made a film in India titled `Around the World in Eight Dollars`. ``

raj kapoor made that movie.

Are pakis trying to tell us paki army brats have it just as tough as Indian army brats? I seriously doubt Indian army brats have access to the kind of facilities paki army brats have...i mean..come on..petting zoos?

reality...female of the canine species...and not a friend of the pakis...

Pakistanis Question Perks of Power

Many Say Military Confuses National Interest With Its Own

By John Lancaster
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, November 22, 2002; Page A01

KARACHI, Pakistan -- Public schools here are little more than warehouses, grim concrete shells lacking libraries, sports facilities, sometimes even teachers. Classes have as many as 60 students. But the children of Pakistani military officers almost certainly are not among them. For them, there is Army Public School O Levels.

Geared toward preparation for the competitive O Levelexams required by British universities, the handsome school is an educational showpiece whose computer, physics and biology labs would not seem out of place in an American suburb. Teachers make three times as much money as their public school counterparts.

Why else, they wonder, would officers` children at the seven-year-old army school enjoy basketball courts, fields for cricket and soccer, even a petting zoo stocked with ducks and deer.

``The army considers itself a privileged class,`` Khayyam Durrani, a retired officer who is principal of the school, said with a smile. ``The fact is that the actual rulers in Pakistani society are the army people, so they want their children to go to a privileged institution.``

harimou:

``That is the result of equal educational opportunity because of democracy.``

I agree if you are talking about higher education. There is no equality at school level.

BTW, stuka mentioned several times that he worked as a waiter to finance his education in the U.S. Most Indians who came abroad for sudies until recently did so on their own. In my time, the govt. allowed someone going abroad a foreign exchange of only eight dollars. Someone made a film in India titled `Around the World in Eight Dollars`.

fuzair:

I too learned my American english from Perry Mason. But I also learnt ``mispronounciation``. During those days, the rudimentaries of American culture had not reached India, so I would in my mind say ``Hee Paul`` when I read ``Hi Pal``.

further to #403 and on your other point - while far be it from me to let your countrymen shake out of their dreamworld, the fact is that it is not a case of brilliant-but-poor indian military brats getting to scholarships to top US universities and of stupid-but-rich pakistani military brats getting in due to their father`s ill-gotten wealth. But, as i said, i do not wish to take an indian away from the dreamworld he lives in.

Romair Mian,

I think I am being insulted! My English was this good (or however good it is; which is debatable) when my father was only a colonel! Not sure I quite understand how one`s English magically improves the higher in rank one`s father rises ;-). There are people who will do well in the Army and those who will not; it helps with Staff College, AFWC, etc, if you have a reasonably good educational background BUT look at all the ranker generals the Army has produced.

If you go to St. Mary`s, St. Pat`s, St. Paul`s, St. Anthony`s, Habib Public, Cathedral School, Ghora Gali, Burn Hall, CC Hasanabdal, Sadiq Public, etc., AND even if you don`t excel, you do learn to speak English reasonably well. Now this was probably more true in the 1950s-1980s than it is now but you can still speak reasonable English without being a milionaire in Pakistan! My (much older) cousin, Matric fail, undiagnosed severe learning disability from the Dark Ages, speaks English better than people with three times his level of formal education but who didn`t go to the ``right`` schools--also helps if your parents read English books. We used to love going to lending libraries to get books--don`t think there are any left in Pakistan now. That is where I first encountered my secret vice, Perry Mason mysteries, and why I am now trying to build up a collection of Perry Mason first editions. I`ve moved on from my old vice, Archie comics!

And I know that you will refuse to believe me, but no one in my family paid for my US education. The universities (and their donors) were kind enough to pay my way through. My selection criteria was quite simple: whichever school gave me the most money. There was a little money in the family but certainly not enough to pay for US universities.

While, compared to the average Pakistani, I was almost immeasurably privileged, it still is no fun as a teenager being in a class where you know that your family is probably among the 3/4 poorest ones in the class, and paying the school fees is a definite financial burden on your parents. So the fact that my parents made huge sacrifices for their children`s education is somehow ``proof,`` as you imply, that my father was corrupt? I wish sometimes that he had made a few crores in the Army, it would certainly have made his retirement much easier. In the Pakistan Army, you can get to a reasonably high rank and not be worth a million dollars.

Subroto #401 First hamidm comes out of the closet and admits he flunked PMA, and now you come out of the closet and admit you are an army brat too. Reminds me of Tikka Khan`s son at Government College Lahore who, on learning that my Dad was in the military too, told me that ``we army types must stick together`` and then told me of another ``army type`` fellow who was running for student union elections.

hamidm: how do you flunk weapon`s training? (not being a PMA alumni/dropout, I must admit ignorance on this matter, nor did anyone else ever mention weapon`s training to have been a challenge). Is it that you couldnt shoot straight? but you seem to shoot straight on chowk. Of maybe you couldnt re-assemble your ``raffle`` within 60 seconds? but you seem to re-assemble your thoughts and go with the flow within 60 seconds on chowk. so it cant be that either. The only thing challenging anyone mentioned about PMA was getting into those starched pants without causing a wrinkle (done by lowering yourself into them while someone holds the stiff pants for you), or by going on those long hikes (where one fellow i know got kicked out for getting a ``lift`` on the road from a passing motorist).

#397 Romair ``we have three individuals on this site who are sons of senior army officers, brigadier or above: you mian, fuzair and tahmad.........and stuka, whose father`s rank i am not sure of, yet........``

Well if the IAF brat Stuka makes the list then as an Indian Army brat I raise my hand. Though Harimau makes a relevant point here ``While children of officers of the Indian armed forces do go to the US, it is not because their dad has millions of dollars. They get into US universities on an assistantship, earn advanced degrees and may stay on``. The lifestyle is great in the army but its not really the place for big bucks - well there are places where people make money but the great majority retires with nothing but a pension. So is the Pak army really this great money making concern then?

Ref Romair #397

[.....we need furthur insight into this. i had guessed your father was a senior army officer. and it turned out to be correct. correct me if i am wrong, but apparently he was a brigadier or a general. you english is far too good to be the son of a colonel. and a son of a major doesn`t have enough money to end up in the usa.... ]

While children of officers of the Indian armed forces do go to the US, it is not because their dad has millions of dollars. They get into US universities on an assistantship, earn advanced degrees and may stay on. However, for every one of these army brats, you will find a thousand others from not just the big cities of India but from hundreds of amsll towns and even villages.

That is the result of equal educational opportunity because of democracy.

Re: #396 by hamidm2

[........ calm down!..........don`t go and get your kacha all in knots over this little disclosure ........ i don`t know if you have noticed, but the anti-terrorism guys in america use dummies dressed up in the checkered arab head dress and the targets used for rifle practice during ww-ii had the profile of a kraut in his helmet .......... it is all part of the game real men play ........... ]

hamidm,

I could make the argument that you don`t find arab headdresses within the continental USA, and civilian Krauts did not walk around in Army Helmets.

But I don`t want to belabour the point, because it`s obvious that as far as this issue is concerned (as well as some other important issues), your heart is in the right place.


Thanks for clarifying. :)

Porbably Hamidm he did not deserve to be in that cess pool of ignorance called Pakistan army and was forced by his father (with a lot of parental persuasion ofcourse) to be a part of an organization that is famed for creating monster megalomaniacs ..............and idiots like our Doc Romoron................

hamidm mian #: ``i failed weapon training``

chowk takes a new twist....this is far far more important than arundhati....

we need furthur insight into this. i had guessed your father was a senior army officer. and it turned out to be correct. correct me if i am wrong, but apparently he was a brigadier or a general. you english is far too good to be the son of a colonel. and a son of a major doesn`t have enough money to end up in the usa....

so far, we have three individuals on this site who are sons of senior army officers, brigadier or above: you mian, fuzair and tahmad.........and stuka, whose father`s rank i am not sure of, yet........

however, i could never have guessed you, yourself, were in the army! what were you doing in pma. i assume you were not there as a boy scout. how long were you there. did you graduate. if not, then did you flunk out. is this why you have such negative feelings towards the army?

there are hundreds of people who flunked out of the air force. but i have yet to meet anyone who flunked out of the army! even the air force flunkies used to go into the army, and become top students. hence i am surprised that a person of your capabilities didn`t make it..........

P.S. there is only one reason i know of, due to which people flunk out of pma (it is a place which is impossible to flunk from): could this be why you are against gay marriage also?

Re: # 395

ajeya,

........ calm down!..........don`t go and get your kacha all in knots over this little disclosure ........ i don`t know if you have noticed, but the anti-terrorism guys in america use dummies dressed up in the checkered arab head dress and the targets used for rifle practice during ww-ii had the profile of a kraut in his helmet .......... it is all part of the game real men play ...........

........ if it is any consolation, i failed weapon training because i just couldn`t get into charging straw dummies - sikh or hindoo or whatever......... actually, if i were to believe my father the sikhs were the nicer of the two and were misled by the conniving bania rascals ......... every now and then when we sould say something stupid like making peace with ya`all, he would thunder, `` tum baniyay ki asliyat nahin jantey - hum uus kay saath reh chukay hain !`` .......... he passed away last year, but nobody dares to take down the potrait of the quaid that has hung over the fireplace for fifty years even though it is yellow with age and moth-eaten ........ sigh :)

Re: #393 by Salim_Chauhan

Check this out.

Re: #393 by Salim_Chauhan

Yes, but what What would you say if it`s true?

If you google this site you`ll see that he has mentioned it before as well (in ``Running Naked``).

Ajeya #392,
Yaar, I think he was puffing his chest. This is another old army trick, also used by several animals. Puffing the chest makes one appear larger and is meant to intimidate the enemy into flight. :)

Don`t take him too seriously on this one. This is the first I heard of it. :)

Re: #377 by hamidm2

[when i was at pma kakul the dummies we used for bayonet practice were dressed up as sikhs in turbans .......... ]


Also, Sikhs who are proud Pakistani citizens should steer clear of the Pakistani armed forces. You never know, the repetitive training of sticking their bayonets into dummies dressed as Sikhs might cause one of the good soldiers to have a conditioned reflex reaction when they see the real thing.

All I am doing here is trying to warn all the broad- and open-minded Sikhs on this forum of this potential danger just in case they live in Pakistan, or feel an urge to visit Pakistan.

Apparently I haven`t figured out how not to hit the submit key twice. Sorry guys.

Re: # 387

Returning to India three years ago after 2 decades in the States, I`ve figured out that free speech, freedom of expression, freedom of thought do not mean quite the same things here as they do in the West. The real reason for the Mullah to question Sania`s on-court dress sense has more to do with him wanting publicity for himself and his organization with the benefits that accrue from such exposure . Not very different from Shiv Sena goons` rampage ritual every Valentine`s day which enables the Thackerey clan to amass enough money to buy up prime Mumbai real-estate. Blackmail is quite a lucrative business. The newspapers print such stuff to increase circulation.

The best way to diffuse the situation is to ignore such clowns, which is what Sania herself is doing by stating that she has no opinion on the matter and getting on with her life. She`s a pretty smart lady that way and it`s a smart business decision. Her asking rate is now 1.5 crores per ad that she appears in, from what I hear. That`s second only to Sachin Tendulkar`s rate.

Re: # 387

Returning to India three years ago after 2 decades in the States, I`ve figured out that free speech, freedom of expression, freedom of thought do not mean quite the same things here as they do in the West. The real reason for the Mullah to question Sania`s on-court dress sense has more to do with him wanting publicity for himself and his organization with the benefits that accrue from such exposure . Not very different from Shiv Sena goons` rampage ritual every Valentine`s day which enables the Thackerey clan to amass enough money to buy up prime Mumbai real-estate. Blackmail is quite a lucrative business. The newspapers print such stuff to increase circulation.

The best way to diffuse the situation is to ignore such clowns, which is what Sania herself is doing by stating that she has no opinion on the matter and getting on with her life. She`s a pretty smart lady that way and it`s a smart business decision. Her asking rate is now 1.5 crores per ad that she appears in, from what I hear. That`s second only to Sachin Tendulkar`s rate.

Re: #377 by hamidm2

[when i was at pma kakul the dummies we used for bayonet practice were dressed up as sikhs in turbans .......... ]


We Hindus being FAR MORE communal than Pakistanis, our Indian army has dummies with long beards streaming in the wind - that they use for bayonet practice. And what`s more - it`s sanctioned by our constitution!

Of course, a few Indian Muslims complained (just like Pakistani Sikhs no doubt had the balls to complain about the Sikh-looking dummies), but being both fascist and communal, the Indian government paid no heed to the Muslim protests (in sharp contrast to the Pakistani govt that listened sympathetically to the Sikh complaints).

The Indian government has a thing or two to learn from the Pakistani government about how to treat minorities.

No wonder Paki chowkies are always pointing out the communal nature of our Indian government.

Ref FarzanaVersey #368

[Oh dear...so now Muslim women raising their voice in a backwater town is not enough for you? I think this is a strong signal...pardon my saying so, but ayone who opposes child marriages, sati, devadasi system in the small towns and villages is applauded. No one asks when are we going to see this change in cities.]

I meant that I would like to see Muslim women in backwaters like Old Delhi and Allahabad speak up for their rights.

I threw in Mahim and Byculla because I would like to see Muslim women in these communities stridently assert their rights. If Muslimas in Bombay keep quiet, what hope is there for their sisters in hidebound places like Old Delhi?

Ans when Muslimas all over India assert their rights over the opposition of maulvis and male chauvinists, a new day would indeed have dawned in India.

re: romair # 364

Chowk can attempt to de-emphasize religion, and by implication, the closely related issues of India/Pak histories, rivalries, and nationalism. But Chowk will not be a chowk anymore, it will turn into a library, a school, even a museum, perhaps.

Libraries, schools, and museums are all be very high value places. But far fewer people visit them very often. Those places are also very quiet. So, Chowk will lose a large proportion of its regular, repeat visitors and core readers.

That is a fail-proof way of curing most of us Chowk junkies of our chowk addictions. That may be a good thing, and a form of social-service-through-harakiri by Chowk Staff :)

But there are broader problems too. One of these problems is that, like it or not, other issues become important ONLY when the issues of identity are settled.

Essentially, the establishment of some sort of common identities is needed before any voluntary social intercourse and exchange of information can take place. I speak here not merely of `soft` areas such as the arts and humanities but also of sciences and of issues of secular finance.

Two people of sharply antagonistic mutual identities will never even come together to discuss those very important issues. Under such circumstances, at least one party must be willing to overlook those differences (which happens only when the party`s actual self-identity is broader than the other party`s).

The more important the issues are, the less willing will people be to discuss them with those of sharply antagonistic identities.

The other problem is that to the extent ANY ACTION/KNOWLEDGE/STUDY will affect social organization directly or indirectly, religious people will have something to say about it. Often, religions themselves make totally hegemonic claims, and reserve a right to interfere in all areas of human experience. You and I may dismiss or deny those claims, but large numbers other people do not. And these are not the kind of folks who remain quiet on anything remotely touching issues important to them. :)

Notice Catchy`s cyber hounding of the sportswoman Sania Mirza on Chowk unplugged.


Now, to your argument that discussions of religion are never settled or won.

That`s not entirely true. Bringing together of conflicting religious ideas itself is an enormously useful excercise. Such juxtaposition breaks or devalues the monolith. It undermines the legitimacy of taken-for-granted beliefs and dogmas. Not in every mind, but in the minds of a few inquisitive, questioning people.

The insight that a totally contrary model may be viable, or even better, gives hope to the doubter. It strengthens the position of the not-entirely gullible. It brings to fore unseen contradictions.

In a way, conflict is the only source of non-incremental change.

Finally, your very reasonable charge that such conflict of ideas leads to increased conflict between people. That is true of all interaction between opposing parties. Some people develop better understandings, others keep busy hammering each other over their heads.

All in all, religion is not only extremely important to indidividuals, it invariably seeps into most other human domains. Religious debates do highlight latent conflict, and may never be entirely settled, but also have a significant positive value.

Since religion evokes passions, it naturally leads to most passionate debates (higlighting the maximum amount of conflict, appearing to be most unsettled, but also having the greatest ultimate impact). Were religious debates to be signficantly curtailed, Chowk will become a much quieter, much less frequently visited place, of importance to only a small number of people.

It will also not be the noisy chowk. Whoever heard of a quiet chowk?

I wonder if there is any Pakistani on chowk who doesnot have an immediate relative in armed forces?

so hamidm was an aspiring soldier too!! and while romair rose to become Field Marshall, poor hamidm had to pack his bori-bistar, and leave quietly in a bus, because he never could get up in time for the parade ground!!

Romair, I mean Field Marshall Romair, you sir are like the sun of Austerlitz that Napoleon spoke about before the day`s battle started!! Poor hamidm is but a mere candle before your brilliance!! Ordinary Abduls like me can only look up to you and hamidm for leadership and guidance!!

hamidm mian #377: ``...... i don`t know about pakistani soldiers marching to ``allah-hoo`` or ``haq-hoo``, but when i was at pma kakul the dummies``

What were you doing in PMA!! Don`t tell me you are a flunkie from PMA!! That answers so many questions, about you (not to mention about life in general). We always used to look down upon those guys.........No wonder you have difficulty understanding what I write and in putting two an two together........See how much one learns about each other, if one stops obsessing with religion and its off-shot secularism, all the time........

``but my guess is that most war cries are religious in nature``

I am not too sure. The, ``war cries`` maybe, but the motivations certainly aren`t completely in that direction. The primary motivation is nationalism. Which is why Iran can fight Iraq. My guess in the Pakistan Army, at the personal level, there is the religious motivation of shahadat, i.e. if you die, you will still be ok. But I would say the biggest motivations are two-fold: one is a nationalistic motivation. The other, interestingly, is a motivation based on the pride of the unit. This is a British trend, which I have not seen too much anywhere else. British Army units have very long histories, and traditions.

In the Air Force, there is no real concept of long-term units. So the motivation is the above, plus one`s own flying skills, i.e. the desire to prove that one is a better fighter pilot than the next guy, by shooting him down.........

After becoming a civilian, I have come to the conclusion that soldiers, in any country, are basically brainwashed to get themselves killed to protect the business interests of civilians, and to carry out the political aspirations of powerful politicians.........

Dost-mittar #375: ``I did not mention air force platoons anywhere? Or that they were singing.``

Yes, you are correct. I misread........

As Fuzair has mentioned, the only group in the military, which chants Allah-ho are the SSG. I have always wondered what the Christian SSG members do. Haq-hoo is not something I am aware of. They are the equivalent of the US Army Special Ops. Both worked together during the first Afghan war.

SSG runs everywhere. As opposed to the rest of us, who prefered walking or a Suzuki 100 motorcycle (if we could afford one).

Every military unit/regiment etc. has a motto and a, ``naara.`` The ones in the Army are quite religiously inclined. Naar-e-Takbeer, Naar-e-Haideri, etc. Some have local language mottos like, ``Chaiti`` (Quickly in Punjabi).

Air Force, as a whole has one naara. I never found out, what it was. I think it may have been Pakistan Zindabad or something. The Air Force squadrons mottos, are based more on Iqbal`s verses and such phrases. Some of which are also religious, but in a more generic form. The Air Force motto (I think) is Sahraast kay daryast, tahae bala or pare maast (The deserts and the oceans are all under my wings/flight?).

Re: # 380

What does ``allahoo`` mean?

Don`t let anybody kid you...The Islamist disease has seeped into the core of the paki military..Notice the number of Paki military officers arrested post 9/11 for links to Al-Qaeda or for the attempted whacking of musharraf..that`s a new phenomenon..Islam over country..and not surprisingly, it started after Afghanistan.. a BBC poll revealed a majority of Pakistanis trust their religious leaders over the army..and for a majority of pakistanis, religion is more important than nation..

And now this..Cols and majors being prosecuted for ties to AQT..including a major from whose home KSM was arrested...

3 Army officers jailed for Qaeda links

By Mubasher Bukhari

LAHORE: A military court has imprisoned three military officers and ordered the dismissal of three others for having links with Al Qaeda, sources told Daily Times on Sunday.

Col Khalid Abbasi, Major Adil Qudoos, Col Abdul Ghaffar, Maj Attaullah, Capt Dr Usman Zafar and Major Rohail Faraz were tried by a military court in Panu Aqil Cantonment in August after they were arrested and then interrogated at Attock Fort, the source said.

The military court, comprising Major General Ahmad Nawaz and Brigadier Mumtaz Iqbal, sentenced Maj Qudoos to 10 years in prison, Col Khalid Abbasi to six months and Col Abdul Ghaffar to three years. Maj Attaullah, Maj Faraz and Capt Zafar were dismissed.

Maj Qudoos, an officer of the Signal Battalion, was arrested on March 1, 2003 after Al Qaeda number three Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was arrested from his Rawalpindi house. Col Khalid Abbasi was posted at Signal Centre Kohat before his arrest on May 30, 2003. Col Ghaffar was serving at the Army Aviation Headquarter before his arrest on March 4, 2004.

fuzair:

``If they were just doing a regular jog and chanting``

Yes, it was a regular morning jog, and I presumed that this was merely a substitute for left-right. Frankly, I dont even know what huq-hoo means - I know allahoo! - or whether I got that part correct.

Re: # 377

``the dummies we used for bayonet practice were dressed up as sikhs in turbans``

maybe you went to another academy than romair. someone had written about this which was denied by romiar.

---

``i don`t know what the indian army was shouting as they charged up kargil, ``

each regiment has its own war cry.
mostly it is based on some god/goddess revered by the regiment,

but some are non-religious like ``Bharat mata ki jai`` `` jai hindustan`` and the very dreadful ``ayo Gorkhali`` i.e. the Gurkhas are here.

Re: # 377 hamid
//....i never saw anythhing wrong with that because the dummies[dressed up as sikhs in turbans] were probably a good depiction of what we would meet on the battle field ....//

What you meet in the battle field is - enemy....When you put a definite ethnicity on the battle dummy - well, that`s plain old big0try ..... Of course, you didn`t see anything wrong with that - why am I not surprised

Re: # 376

fuzair, dost and captain cluless .....

...... i don`t know about pakistani soldiers marching to ``allah-hoo`` or ``haq-hoo``, but when i was at pma kakul the dummies we used for bayonet practice were dressed up as sikhs in turbans .......... we would charge from about thirty feet shouting ``ya-ali!`` and ``allah o`akbar`` , then ``parry, butt, cut !`` and take a swipe at poor sardar-ji`s neck ........... i never saw anythhing wrong with that because the dummies were probably a good depiction of what we would meet on the battle field ...... and how do you dress up a straw dummy to look like a hindoo anyway? .... put a dhoti on it and hand it a pot of runny daal ?..........

...... i don`t know what the indian army was shouting as they charged up kargil, but my guess is that most war cries are religious in nature - religion is a great motivator for killing and getting killed (i can`t think of any other use) ................

p.s. by the way we used to sing ``gumbad-i-sabz pe rehmat ki ghata chayee hai `` as we ran past ilyasi masjid - it was an impromptu sort of thing - nothing religious about it ......... and as soon as we got back to the barracks we`d break open the vat-1 ...........

DM:

My connections, however limited, with the Pakistani military were a long time back but I can`t ever recall seeing regular army, as opposed to SSG, marching in the manner you describe. Were the men you saw double-timing with a pretty exaggerated stride (i..e, lifting the knees up very high, to something approximating chest level)? If so, they were SSG. The regular Army never does that and the SSG is much more gungho about everything, including religion, than is the Army. If they were just doing a regular jog and chanting, I`m not sure what was up.

Romair is right. Brit patterned armies do not sing Judies while marching; that is a peculiarly American military tradition and one that only dates back to WWII.

Romair#374:

I did not mention air force platoons anywhere? Or that they were singing. ``Huq-hoo, alla-hoo`` that I observed was merely a substitute of ``left-right, left-right`` routinely used during march by soldiers (I believe even NCC) in India.

I think that I have revealed quite a bit about myself in my interacts. I am mostly retired now, but take consulting assignments if they are offered to me without looking. I also do some voluntary work, especially with a facility for out-of-town patients and parents of sick children, especially those with oncology and cardiac problems. I like to read a lot. Cyber-reading seems to be replacing real reading these days although I still like the touch and feel of real books and turning real pages, incstead of clicking the browser scroll.

Hope that it helps.

Re: # 367

Re- Semantic Jugglery Comment:-

Let me put the disagreements with Samina in the proper perspective. I thought that the difference between the ``act of creation of the text by the author``, ``the text`` and the ``understanding of the text by the reader`` are as important as the difference between the ``signifier`` and the ``signified`` and would be well understood by Samina as one who shares the same horizon (jargon/paradigm) of the western literary theorist community. (You know what I mean- `the hermeneutic circle`` , ``difference``, Gadamar-Habermas debate etc etc...)

Let me first speak of my horizon which follows Gadamer :

``For Gadamer, understanding is a social activity, or as he says in Truth and Method, a “sharing in a common meaning” (292). Gadamer posits that the human being is always understanding and understands by participating in a conversation with what he or she experiences. In regard to the reading of texts, then, the significant event for Gadamer is the understanding that occurs between reader and text, or the conversation that takes place between them.``

As well as his attack on the philosophy of presence in the ``meaning`` of the text:

``For hermeneutics, ``truth`` no longer signifies the ``correspondence`` of ``mental states`` to ``objective`` reality, and ``meaning`` is no longer conceived of as some sort of objective, in-itself state of affairs which merely awaits being ``discovered`` and ``represented`` by a mirroring mind. ``Truth`` and ``meaning`` refer instead to creative operations on the part of human understanding itself, which is always interpretive (never simply ``representational``). Hermeneutical truth is inseparable from the interpretive process, and meaning, as hermeneutics understands it, is nothing other than what results from such a process, namely, the existential-practical transformation that occurs in the interpreting subject (in his or her world orientation) as a result of his or her active encounter with texts, other people, or ``the world.`` Truth and meaning have nothing ``objective`` about them, in the modern, objectivistic sense of the term; they are integral aspects of the ``event`` of understanding itself, are inseparable from, as Gadamer would say, the ``play`` of understanding.

In reconceptualizing truth and meaning in this way, hermeneutics thereby also reconceptualizes the pivotal notion of ``knowledge.`` What is called ``knowledge`` is not, as Derrida would say, the possession of a ``transcendental signified,`` a translinguistic ``essence`` (this is the metaphysical or logocentric definition of knowledge, a definition which, it may be noted, Derrida uncritically accepts). ``Knowledge,`` for hermeneutics, is nothing other than the shared understanding that a community of inquirers comes to as a result of a free exchange of opinions. For Gadamer, understanding ``is a process of communication.`` In reconceptualizing matters in this way, and in insisting on the ``communicative`` nature of human understanding, hermeneutics offers us something more than does deconstruction, i.e., something more than the mere cacophony of everyone`s parodying, fanciful interpretations of things (the ``private fantasies`` of Derrida that Rorty speaks of).``

I hope that clarifies why I disagree with your ``semantic jugglery`` comment on my re- formulation of Saminasha`s thesis of ``text as a social action``. The meaning-horizon dependence is what differentiates those who insist upon a ``correct`` understanding of the text (as a reified pure entity existing apart from the community of readers) and those who insist that it is not the text but the horizons of the community of followers that ``creates`` the meaning of the text in the social act of understanding of the text.

Dost-mittar #365: OK. (By the way, Air Forces don`t have platoons. They have flights, squadrons and wings. Platoon being an army concept. And they don`t sing songs, while marching. The march to the music of the songs, while keeping perfectly quite. Singing while marching is a US tradition. While British-ly inclined militaries, don`t sing. They just march to the music).......

Anyways, as an attempt to initiate a move away from solely religiously and secularly inclined discussions (which this interaction with you is also based on; haq ho, allah ho, jihad etc.), I have decided to ask the following questions: I have always wondered what you do for a living. What are your areas of expertise etc.

It is kind of odd that you and I have been interacting for three years or more, on a daily to weekly basis, yet I have very little idea about what you do. The only issues we have discussed seem directly related to religion and secularism (and Indo-Pak politics). Primarily because that is where all the topics on this site tend to funnel the discussions.......

I think it is time to move away from that........I doubt if we were to meet in real life, on a real Chowk, we would be discussing everything under this umbrella of these two topics.....

297 FV writes
Re. 16. “Seems Farzana thinks that Arundhaty is `The One` with the divine right/knowledge to preach others and get on every body`s back, mind, conscious and all.”

No. I am incapable of hagiography. I have already explained wrt Amulya Ganguli the context of getting off her back…ditto the Narmada Andolan. Of course, people must counter her – when they can. Rather silly that this has to be stated. Insecure?

---

Insecure ? who me or you
there is a news papaer Asian Age (definitley not among top newspapers in terms of readership in india)
there is a columnist there Amulya Ganguli
He writes a critical piece on another author Arundhati Roy

and you get offended by it (or may be felt insucre ...) and wrote a long article here defending Roy. And now you are brazen enough to call me names`` ... Rather silly ....... Insecure?

If you just wanted to rebut Amulya Gnaguli , you should have called him up and settled the matter amongst yourselves or let Roy defend herself. But you wrote the article here perhaps because this is sort of your own turf with lots of admirers like dost-mittar etc. It reminds me of the saying ``apni gali mein .... bhi sher``

if you really care about people poor, operessed, women, marginalised or otherwise than ``walk the talk``. Spend yr money and time and career for thier well being. Wrirting articles ,making AVs dosen`t help anybody except you.

Stand in elections , write the Civil Servces exam , take up an office , take responsibility . Or become a doctor or some `Grameen Banker` like that guy in bangladesh and then when you have done yr bit then come back to me or all people here.

Then I will not laugh on being called Insecure, Silly , stupid or whatever but take it seriously and try to emulate you.

and btw the image on chowk icon still has the map of pakistan.

Re: #368 by Uncompromising Intellectual

[but ayone who opposes child marriages, sati, devadasi system in the small towns and villages is applauded. No one asks when are we going to see this change in cities.]


How many incidents of child marriages, sati and devadasi systems have thou come across in cities?

Re: #364 by Romair

[It is as useless as discussing whether India is better than Pakistan, or Pakistan better than India.]


Yes, this is true. That`s because it is very difficult deciding which state is better.

Let`s see now.

Pakistan - Undemocratic, ruled by dictators and feudal lords, fundamentalist Islamic, madrassa-infested, the fountainhead of world terrorism.

India - Democratic, secular and at the forefront of education in the world.


This is indeed a difficult choice.

No use wasting time trying to decide.

Farzana,

Well....I dont know how to take that palpable absence comment, lol....esp since I`ve come back and seen reams of heated grandstanding on everything but the girl and the book...and your absence-you such a strict board keeper normally...

Needless to say, it is a great book and this piece was long coming! Hope to read more soon.