A Drunken RSS Man in Jassema

Re: #31 by Beej

The blasphemy threat logic doesn`t apply to people like Harish Nambiar or the million commies on this website, the Dalistan fruitcakes or Farzana Varsey (probably). And definitely not to dost-mitter.

#27 Ajeya

[When was the last time you saw commie types ...condemn Islam and Islamic organizations that have mushroomed all over the country?]

I believe that the answers to these types of questions have been provided earlier, for example, in an unusually candid manner on another board by Dr. Gill, which you may have missed.

Re: #29 by dost-mittar


[I have nothing more useful to contribute on this topic except to congratulate you on your objective take on it.]

Thanks. But I think you are being modest here. I actually would appreciate it if you would address the two questions I raised:

Post#27:

[When was the last time you saw commie types like Harish Nambiar and Farzana Varsey condemn Islam and Islamic organizations that have mushroomed all over the country? ]

and

Post#28:
[Now does that make you wonder why?]


I`m sure I would find your viewpoint very useful.


Thanks,

Ajeya

Ajeya:

I have nothing more useful to contribute on this topic except to congratulate you on your objective take on it.

Re: #26 by dost-mitter

One thing I forgot to mention also. While there is much writing and public condemnation by Leftists and Islamists about this IMAGINARY scenario that Gowalkar wrote about in his formative years, there is a distinct lack of public condemnation about the EXISTING scenario in Pakistan and all Islamic organizations and countries by these same Islamists and pseudo-intellectual leftists.

Now does that make you wonder why?

#26 by dost-mittar


[All you need to do is to pay a visit to an RSS shakha.]


Since that is not possible for me currently, could you can tell me what you found on your last visit there?


[In the meantime, here is a famous quote from Guru Golwalkar:

``From this standpoint, sanctioned by the experience of shrewd old nations, the foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e. of the Hindu nation, and must lose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race; or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment -- not even citizen`s rights.`` ]


Although I had heard indirect references about these kind of comments, I had never seen this quote before. I`ll have to say that this is absolutely and unambiguously reprehensible, and not at all in keeping with Hindu tradition and culture. Unless the RSS publicly condemns this quote, and distances itself from it, it deserves no place in our national dialogue. Neither does any party that associates itself with the RSS, until and unless this quote is publicly condemned by them.

This kind of scenario is one step worse than an Islamic state. Because it is unwilling to bestow even citizen`s rights to non-Hindus. At least in an Islamic state, people of other faiths, although second-class citizens, are at least citizens.

I read in this article that Guru Golwalkar distanced himself from this statement later. And I have heard a lot of speeches by various BJP leaders as well as RSS leaders that are inclusive. This indicates to me that the RSS has distanced itself from this kind of thinking.

But it still requires a public condemnation. Do you know if anyone in the RSS has ever publicly condemned this quote?

I`ll have to do some reading on this to see if they have done this or not.


Just as an FYI, a disproportionately huge majority of Hindus consider the RSS as a poisonous antidote to the poison that is Islam. Unlike Muslims, the vast majority of Hindus DO NOT like the idea of a Hindu state. But even if the RSS is viewed as an antidote, it should never be allowed to entertain such views.



By the way, this does in no way absolve the left wingers (including the dalitstan freaks) and the Islamists for their COMPLETE and UNAMBIGUOUS failure to criticize Islam and Islamic organizations that condone, indeed espouse as a high ideal - the invariably political concept of Dar-ul-Harab and Dar-ul-Islam, as well as the concepts of a Muslim and Dhimmi. Because even this qoute by Gowalikar pales in comparison to the viciousness, the venom and the hatred that is espoused for non-Muslims in Islam, that is considered sacrosanct by every Muslim.


When was the last time you saw commie types like Harish Nambiar and Farzana Varsey condemn Islam and Islamic organizations that have mushroomed all over the country?

Ajeya:

All you need to do is to pay a visit to an RSS shakha. In the meantime, here is a famous quote from Guru Golwalkar:

``From this standpoint, sanctioned by the experience of shrewd old nations, the foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e. of the Hindu nation, and must lose their separate existence to merge in the Hindu race; or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu Nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment -- not even citizen`s rights.``

Re: #24 by dost-mitter

[I had said ``brahminical`` image and not organization. I would have to study its postion on ``varna prasthithi`` to know wheher or not it is a brahminical organization.]


Okay, then while you decide on that, let me re-ask you my second question:

You said the following:

[Now, if only the RSS would stop demonising non-hindus, I would have no problem with it. ]


And my question was:


Also, I would really appreciate it if you could give me ONLY ONE OR TWO instances (of the MANY that you no doubt have come across) where the RSS has been ``demonizing`` non-hindus.


So, if you could give me an answer on this.

(This should be very easy, because it is quite obvious that someone like you would never demonize the RSS for no reason.).



Thanks,

Ajeya

Ajeya:

I had said ``brahminical`` image and not organization. I would have to study its postion on ``varna prasthithi`` to know wheher or not it is a brahminical organization.

Re: #19 by dost-mittar


[It is an undeniable fact that not only was the RSS founded by a Maharashatrain brahmin, Dr. Hedgawar who was succeeded by its most influential leader, Golwalkar (Guruji), they - Maharashtrian Brahmins - continued to be Sar Sanghchalaks until Rajju Bhaiyya was made its chief in a conscious attempt to change its image. Not only was the chief a Maharashtrain brahmin, so were most members of its executive (Karyakarni Samiti?). ]


Because you seem to lay stress on polite behaviour, and rational discussions, let me take this opportunity to engage you in one:



Could you give me the answers to the following questions I have in this regard:

1) What do you mean when you say ``brahminical`` organization?

Of the following choices:

a) an organization STARTED by a brahmin.
b) an organization where MOST of the members are brahmins.
c) an organization that PROPAGATES ``brahminical`` ideology.

is it a, b, or c, or any combination of them? Or is it something else?


(If your answer includes c, my follow-up question, of course, would be what you mean by ``brahminical`` ideology. But we`ll cross that bridge when we come to it.)



[Now, if only the RSS would stop demonising non-hindus, I would have no problem with it. ]

Also, I would really appreciate it if you could give me ONLY ONE OR TWO instances (of the MANY that you no doubt have come across) where the RSS has been ``demonizing`` non-hindus.



Thanks,

Ajeya

the famous dalitistan site seems to use ``brahmin`` as noun, verb, adjective (brahminism, brahminical..and so on)...its really cool.. there is even an article on how sachin tendulkar is a brahmin, and rich, thru some conspiracy got to be a premium cricketer..


http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra001/idxbra001.html

Re: # 20

``PS mahajan i think is OBC and so is gopinath munde...they are related by marriage. ``

yes they are, but Mahajan is upper caste. I remember when opposition wanted to target BJP they would attack Mahajan rather than Munde. Otherwise how could they say that BJP is a party of upper caste.

#19 the CPM (commies) in maharastra was also brahmin..Dange, Deshpande...
(i think in bengal too)..
congress had all brahmin PMs nehru, shastri, IG, Rao.. rajiv G was a part-muggle.

the point is, i dont think the caste is important. RSS i dont think has ever represented the ``brahmin`` cause..e.g. more employment protections for brahmins or govt subsidies for janeus. so i think ajeyas question is on the mark...labels such as ``brahmincal`` are not only lazy but also perhaps suspicious.

PS mahajan i think is OBC and so is gopinath munde...they are related by marriage.

Ajeya#13:

It is an undeniable fact that not only was the RSS founded by a Maharashatrain brahmin, Dr. Hedgawar who was succeeded by its most influential leader, Golwalkar (Guruji), they - Maharashtrian Brahmins - continued to be Sar Sanghchalaks until Rajju Bhaiyya was made its chief in a conscious attempt to change its image. Not only was the chief a Maharashtrain brahmin, so were most members of its executive (Karyakarni Samiti?).

Despite its brahminical roots, the RSS is perhaps the only organization which is doing something to end caste-based divisions in the Hindu society. Some of the so-called progressives have no intention to do so, instead, they would like nothing better than to perpetuate these divisions so that they can happily continue to indulge in their casteist politics. Now, if only the RSS would stop demonising non-hindus, I would have no problem with it.

harish-hyd:
Your south indian background shows. :-).
Mahajan means `a trader` in hindi, so he is unlikely to be a brahmin.

patwari,

:)

Beej,

Like I said earlier, there are constraints on this work..and it does not always work as a travelogue.

CKP stands for Chandraseniya Kayasth Prabhu. On the business of RSS and casteism, it is true that there have been changes. The RSS has been more pragmatic and less prejudiced about caste than earlier. There are many who claim that this pragmatism too is time and situation induced than newfound faith. But, as in the case of Bangaru Laxman, the Dalit leader caught on camera accepting Tehelka`s cash, the moment you get caught he screamed ``Caste prejudices`` as the reason he was singled out for victimisation...etc.. That of course, is also true of Shankersingh Vaghela....when he left the RSS.

In many ways, like the Muslim leaders in the BJP, the Dalit leaders in the RSS often remain vulnerable to the charge of `willing puppets.``


HN

Re: # 12

I`d tell ya but promptly get banned

rozaiba,

Yes! Is it that obvious?:)

t,

Thanks! That is good for somebody diffident about physical discriptions!

wiseguyin,

NO, of course. Just that it sets tone.

dost,

To a great extent the travel I do impresses a kind of form and regimentation on my work. In so far as that is concerned, I cannot often do justice to all the places I visit. What you say about Goa is very true. Maybe, another time.

And, no the Shiv Sena is not a caste based party at all. It is a genuine sons-of-the-soil movement that got political, and later religious. I have a piece on chowk that traces the raisond`etre of the party. It is called An Insight into the way the SS functions.

HN

Time and again, people here (mostly Indians) have accused the RSS and BJP of being ``Brahminical``, but anyone who has knows the parties from up close will vouch for the fact that nothing can be further from the truth. Let`s take the RSS leadership. The current RSS top honcho Sudershan is not a Brahmin. Nor is the party spokesman Ram Madhav. If you take the BJP, Vajpayee is a Brahmin and Pramod Mahajan and Sushma Swaraj may be Brahmins (I`m not sure), but Advani, Jaswant Singh, Bangaru Laxman, and Venkaiah Naidu are definitely not Brahmins. If you go to their state units, most of the leaders are not Brahmins.

The percentage of Brahmins in the BJP/RSS is more or less equal to the percentage of Brahmins in the Congress. But again, the percentage of Brahmin leaders is disproportionately larger when compared to their overall population but that could be because they are more educated and hence more politically aware and active.

shivsena thakreys are a ``Kayastha`` caste..like srivastava or saxena of north.

this caste has a history of being babus (scribes, quarter-masters) in mughal, nizam and maratha courts..but some of them also made a transition of becoming mansabdars by wielding the sword. thakrey poses himself in the role of a maratha fief.

SS is maratha, but casteless..most of the cadre is lower-caste, lower-middle class mill and factory workers, bank karmacharis etc, and leadership is mixed.

Re: #11 by dost-mittar

[Just a factual note. The RSS seems to be trying to get out of its old Brahminical image. Its current Sar Sangh Chaalak (President) as well as his predecessor were not brahmins.]


Dost-Mitter,

I have a great respect for people who deal with facts. And I appreciate the fact that you are trying here to clear up a misconception (at the risk of being unpopular, maybe?).

Since I am relatively new to this website, I must have missed out on many ``facts`` that are common knowledge on this website.

So, that being the case, could you point me in the direction of how you (or any other fact-based poster on this website), ever came across the fact that the RSS had cultured a ``Brahminical image`` in the past.

And also, could you also orient me towards the understanding of the term ``Brahminical image``. And how is that different from a ``Hindu image``?

I would really appreciate it.


Thanks,

Ajeya

Re: # 10

what does CKP stand for?

Just a factual note. The RSS seems to be trying to get out of its old Brahminical image. Its current Sar Sangh Chaalak (President) as well as his predecessor were not brahmins.

Re: # 6
Thakrays are CKPs.

Harish:

A little too long on too many littles! (Now where did we here that before?!) I have to agree with Dost – you hit a bit too light on Goa and too hard on the bar – and all that it entailed, including that ex-RSS man.

Notes:

[He seemed to have surrendered to ganja before his moped lost control. He lay still. A few locals had gathered around him. From all accounts it was a small accident and he would live.]
Another adrak-lover bites the dust – hamidm, please take note!

[Thomas made me feel like he was my longtime friend. ….The aura. The aura that people, characters, history speak of, about famous, physically, historically imposing personalities like the Russian mystic Rasputin, or Gandhi, or Einstein.]
Say goodbye to your expectations, Thomas, at least to those of the long-pending bar bills ever being paid out!

[…the streak of red that glistened on her slim lips with impossible, almost painterly sensuousness. And then the beetle juice trickled from the left corner, instantly killing two men with one trickle. One stupid enough to be seasoned, the other seasoned enough to be stupid. ]
Yup, that betel-juice will do it every time! Especially to long-suffering lonely half-dead “zombies” on bike!

[“Should we pack them off to Pakistan?” I was hoping it was a funny question and Nagaraj would get the clincher before we parted.]
More accurately, a “leading question” from an intoxicated Perry Mason, but the “witness” is the one who seems to have pulled a rabbit from the hat, not the lawyer – at least during this round!

Well done again Harish, but I still waiting for that book. Keep going sir.

THE R.S.S. IS STILL STUCK IN THE OLD, OUT DATED CASTE FORMULA, LIKE MOST OF HINDUS IN INDIA. BY GIVING CHANCE ONLY TO BRAHMINS, FOR THE TOP BERTHS, THEY CUT OFF NEARLY 80% OF THE HINDU POPULATION.

I THINK THE THAKERAYS ARE NOT BRAHMINS, THEY BELONG TO THE C.K.P. CASTE.
IT DOESN`T MATTER, THOUGH, THE SHIV SENA WAS CREATED PRIMARILY TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF THE NATIVE MAHARASHTRIANS.
THE SHIV SENA DOESN`T DISCRIMINATE MUCH ON THE BASIS OF RELIGION, CASTE OR CREED, IF IT WANTS TO OPPOSE ANYONE.
IT TURNED MORE TOWARDS RELIGIOUS ISSUES WHEN IT STARTED CONTESTING ELECTIONS, LOOSING MARATHI VOTES AND GIVING CHANCE TO OTHER REGIONAL PARTIES LIKE THE N.C.P.
NATURALLY, THE SHIV SENA IS TRYING TO LOCATE ITS ROOTS IN MUMBAI AND THE KONKAN AND BALANCE ITS HINDUTVA IDEOLOGY, BUT IT SEEMS NOT TO BE WORKING, WITH NARAYAN RANE LEAVING THE PARTY.


THE ARTICLE`S DEFINITELY A NICE READ. NAGRAJ GIVES ONE THE FEELING THAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO BREAK FROM THE STERIOTYPICAL BELIFS AND TRYING TO THINK BY THEMSELVES.
I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR Mr. NAMBIAR, WHY `BOMBAY` AND NOT THE ORIGINAL `MUMBAI`, WHEN THE CITY`S BEEN OFFICIALLY RENAMED A FEW YEARS AGO?

Re: # 5

``BTW I am wondering if Shiv Sena was a reaction to the upper-caste leadership of the RSS?``

thackerays are brahmins. SS was more a bunch of rowdies of mumbai for protection of marathi manus (man). It is said it was encouraged to grow to check the militant trde unions in mumbai mills. SS initially attacked the southerners and the northerners for the benefit of the natives (maharashtrians) , only during 90s they started attacking muslims. but now they are back to show that they are the sole protector of the native maharashtrains in mumbai. 2 years back they beat up a few biharis who had come to mumbai for railway exams.

Hi Harish:

I was hoping you would have covered Goa a bit more. I had a great time there, especially the evening cruise. Goa seems to be developing a personality of its own - the christian and hindu cultures seem to have mingled well together to create a Goan culture.

BTW I am wondering if Shiv Sena was a reaction to the upper-caste leadership of the RSS?

Nice in a mediocre sort of way.I don`t know what else to say.

An RSS guy says that Muslims are brothers (while drunk) & THE problem is dissolved...
Huh

- SN

harish!

loved the lyricism in these passages


...That is perhaps where the real secret of hospitality lies locked. My cheery introduction was an opportunistic exaggeration of friendliness; his half-smile was a most natural, unstrained recollection. Thomas, in many ways, embodied Goa’s spirit. He wore intimacy lightly. He made everybody welcome in a way that was in direct contrast to the welcome of an airhostess or shop floor salesman, who too welcome business with a face. There was in Thomas’s welcome a total disregard for the transactional value or its promise, in the customer.

and this one

I was speaking of the stunning Karwari woman we had seen at a small village kiosk along the highway. We had stopped for a smoke break, and this woman had landed up at the same stall from somewhere nearby. She was probably a farm labourer. She wore a mustard yellow saree, and was of regular height. Her built was the lean, mean, hungry kind, a kind of sparse body that would have been wiry in a man. It was her face that was like the blow of the hammer directly into the iris; even if our irises were tired and dimmed by nine hours in the sun. She had golden burnished skin, a well-formed, sleek, unobtrusively long nose that burst into a florid flare from the false diamond that she had in her nose ring.

Her eyes, not large and expressive, but neither beady and penetrative; they were rather averagely ineloquent eyes. But the lashes, they were speckled with dust visible in the lighted shade of the late afternoon, made her eyes mesmerising. And yet what really took our half deadened senses away from the death to the ringing reality of this woman’s beauty was the streak of red that glistened on her slim lips with impossible, almost painterly sensuousness. And then the beetle juice trickled from the left corner, instantly killing two men with one trickle. One stupid enough to be seasoned, the other seasoned enough to be stupid.


rgds

t

refreshing this was Harish! a long journey is nearing an end?