Because He Couldn’t Get It Up!

I wonder what ailment would Azra Rashid ascribe to Pakistani
society, and its protectors who fail to protect the rights
of poor and lower middle class men from:

- daytime robberties
- theft
- murders
- harassment
- employment discrimination
- nepotism
- and yes, rape.

Pakistan is a lawless society and pretty much everyone is
victimized in one form or another. Its the height of
dishonesty by the "elites" of the society to take up
one cause or another for one group while ignoring others.
Azra Rashid is not alone in this crime. You have other
artists, writers, and musicians who are playing the same
game.

no one can disagree in any manner with the above text but when u talk about mythology and compare religion to religion than Islam is a true and better off religion and no space for myths to enter, no other religion offers same respect to a women as Islam does but if we, people, dont follow our religion properly its not the fault of religion , one who is knowledgeable knows the fact that statistics of all crimes, including rape, are far too high in US than in other countries of the world where these americans claim themselves to be the most respected, reputed and better off than others -

And not enough, when such type of crimes take place in countries like Pakistan we just look at one side of the square, the are three more sides remaining - we all are invloved in the crime in totality , womens of Pakistan are shortening thier clothes on the name of boldness, and mens claim themselve to be religious but never lower their eyes when a Non-Mehram comes in thier way - so those exposing themselves and those looking at them are all responsible for these crimes, because these small crimes are the roots of the big tree , eg rape -

President talked in a different context and hence taking his comments isolation will be a bias. Bush once said ``we are having a crusade`` now if we take it in isolation, its pretty clear but the context in which he said, means otherwise.
Blaming is a very easy thing to do but none at him/herself to find so many problems that other may notice.
Mukhtaraan Mai has been raped and then paraded infront of men and hence she has been included in the most influential people of the year by Times. Why we never saw any american women getting this title when US is among the countries with highest rape rate. I wonder if this title is specially reserved for Pakistan?
Why Mukhtaran Mai has been so generously supported when we can find thousand and thousand of such women in US then arent supported at all.
Double standards as usual. I am not saying President is 100 percent right but atleast you people are also not!

You must be knowing that majority of the people of Pakistan are not practicing Islam. A very small percentage even say their prayers regularly, purdah is not standard, and most of all, culture is dominant. There is a very clear difference between culture and religion, and sister what you see there is culture, not even Pakistan`s culture really. If it`s not India`s culture then it`s the new wave of adopting the culture of the UK and US.

You should also know that in the U.S. women are mostly assaulted by someone they love and are close to. Domestic violence is a huge problem here. Every 7 seconds a women is assaulted by someone she trusts, her husband, boyfriend, or otherwise known to her. Assault doesn`t occur `as often` by unknown men.

I really don`t say there isn`t a problem in pakistan, there may really be, but it`s not due to religion, in fact, if they ppl are so much concerned about fixing the problems there, it would behoove them to follow Allah and they will Insha`Allah be much better off. It is the lack of following Allah that has created the problems.

I am American, but I lived in Pakistan for a couple of years but I am a Muslim, non Pakistani.

#60 Mantolives

``Only a person devoid of any self respect or an iota of integrity would choose to misconstrue my statement in this fashion. ``

haan haan munna beta, Mushy baba bhi yahi kehta hai!!

yoo hooo manto...

link

That comment got Musharraf in hot water. So over the weekend, Musharraf denied that he had ever said any such thing -- noting that if he had, he would have been ``stupid.``

True.

The Washington Post reviewed its tapes and reported that it had quoted him correctly. It also added an additional quote from the same interview, in which Musharraf spoke of rape as an avenue to riches: ``It is the easiest way of doing it. Every second person now wants to.``

Well done Manto mian
You added another one
4. Rape of women in Pakistan is justified because in American rapes their women more often. (Shree Yaseer Latif Hamdani ji)

Earlier three gems.
3. Rape of Pakistani women is justified because Turkish and Indians do so (Faisaluno ji)
2. You can have sex with a woman in Pakistan if she lets you enter her house (??)
1. Pakistani women get raped to make money and get Canadian Visa. (CEO, Pakistan)

Anyone else out there!!

Re: # 58

Only a person devoid of any self respect or an iota of integrity would choose to misconstrue my statement in this fashion.

Re: # 58

You are right on the spot.......actually Mush has picked this up from the Paki elite circles...and he is convinced that much of it is true.....that is why he narrated this with conviction as if it is a very plausible explanation for the rapes.......................I had predicted that this fauzi rascal is going to form an alliance with the dominant cartel of business houses in Pakistan- the so called elites........obtain huge donations and support from them in order to assist them in creating hard entry conditions and barriers in their respective business domains............ensure that these cartels do not fact any competition...............favour them in government contracts................thereby kick up the Paki economy...................but ensure that the poor remain where they are..............ensure that the lower class pests remain enslaved in the farms..............ensure that the distribution of riches become even more skewed..............ensure that economy becomes a slave to his martial law politics...................I can predict that he is going to destroy not merely the economy of Pakistan when he goes unless and until he is replaced by another dictator who can continue these alliances...........I can predict that in the end he would ensure that the position of the women and poor worsens................

#54 by Mantolives on September 19, 2005 10:11pm PT


I am still waiting for a response from anyone on why there are according to FBI reports a rape every 5 minutes in the US?


What`re the numbers on how many times a year a president of the US puts a raped women on the exit control list...or the number of times US military intelligence chases a raped women out of the country?

The problem with people like Azra is that they are the victims of their own over zealousness... no one`s desire to over turn the patriarchal set up in Pakistan is greater than mine... but I am afraid there has to be a limit to exaggeration... Pakistan`s situation on the ground is as bad or good as any other..

I am still waiting for a response from anyone on why there are according to FBI reports a rape every 5 minutes in the US?

Re: # 54

``I am still waiting for a response from anyone on why there are according to FBI reports a rape every 5 minutes in the US?``

Don`t hold your breath. There is no explanation without poking holes the size of Grand Canyon into the swiss cheese called the ``Model Democracy`` of the world with unlimited ``Freedom`` to do whatever one wants. One can`t blame the law enforcement agencies either, they`ve got more important things to do...like covering up major blunders resulting in national security breaches.

Besides, it`s an industry in the US; a whole bunch of piranas in the legal, judiciary, and media circles feed off of the victims every 5 minutes.

The last I checked, piranas are defined in the dictionary as follows:

``Any of several tropical American freshwater fishes of the genus Serrasalmus that are voraciously carnivorous and often attack and destroy living animals.``

Pakistan is after all faaaaaaaaaar from freshwaters.

;-)~~

Re: # 54
//...I am still waiting for a response from anyone on why there are according to FBI reports a rape every 5 minutes in the US? ....//

Because, I guess, nobody here has time to educate the eternally clueless....

But let me try ...... This is NOT about rape by itself ....... This is about pakis govt response to the crime - Even at the highest of level of Paki Govt, the authorities harass/oppress rape victims rather than helping them...all in name of honor, image and whatever other excuse...

Rape happens everywhere, as you said - probably more in US .... But no head of state goes around blaming the victims and calling it ``stage managed`` and ``money-making`` attempt....That`s just common sense.....That`s what Mushy has done, yet again....

So that`s the bone of contention here - Mushy going around blaming rape victims....

Now - Is that clear to you?

Re: # 55

``So that`s the bone of contention here - Mushy going around blaming rape victims....``

A typical sign of incompetence amongst the law enforcers...............when they cannot enforce ..............they blame the victim to hide their incompetency.............

Re: # 61 ballu
//...when they cannot enforce ..they blame the victim to hide their incompetency...//

Who says they really want to enforce the law - or even have a law that`s enorceable?...... I mean - 4 ``pious`` muslims needed as witness to rape - that the law pakis have....How the heck do you find 4 ``pious`` muslims as witness?

But that`s another story.... What marks the high-water of paki stupidity is blaming the victims - that too in front of international audience.... And at the same time - hiring expensive ``consultants`` to improve paki ``image``.....

....and then we have apologists like YLH.

#51, Beej {``Our men who come back home and kick our women into unconsciousness, crush them into submission, destroy them into dust – rip them and rape them – make them pulp in body and worse, in mind! ``}

So, when do you guys copulate?

#51, {``Our men who come back home and kick our women into unconsciousness, crush them into submission, destroy them into dust – rip them and rape them – make them pulp in body and worse, in mind!

This is no Pakistani problem – if you truly believe that then you are a worse dumb-ass than even this interactor!!! This damn thing is deeply-rooted in OUR culture, its OUR thinking, its in OUR psyche, its in OUR mindset, its all OURS! We made this baby all by ourselves! ``}

Mr. Paki,
I was going to abide by my promise to refrain from using the term ``Paki`` except when it was appropriate.

Judging by your sharing of your domestic situation with all of us in a public forum, I think that THAT time has come. :)

Salim

All interactors:

Earlier I was lecturing one particular interactor regarding his more than willing acceptance of a racial slur on one of our own sub-groups and even his apparently genuine, if foolish, desire to make that slur loose its punch through overuse! (If only life were that simple!) While that interactor appears to have retreated, my thinking on that issue and the larger issue that it is part of, continued, so here it is for the crowds!

Sure the army is responsible for the current predicament – but how large is the army? A million? How many men and women other than the army – 160 million? How the heck can one person dominate 160? You tell me!

And the mullahs?! Same difference.

And the feudals?! Ditto.

And sure it’s the men’s fault – those creeps with those devastatingly damaging tools! Oh, how we would LOVE to turn everything into a man versus woman issue – it can neatly create a visible enemy and like everything else in life, practice makes perfect – so the more we criticize on that basis – the more comfortable we get with the sound of our own voices – not to mention the “soundness” of our own views. Man – the ever elusive enemy – every woman’s dream and every woman’s nightmare!

How many men and women are there in Pakistan? About 82 million to 80 million!? Is it physically possible for 82 million men to hold back 80 million women? Isn’t the current degradation mostly a result of the fact that many (too many) women ACCEPT this degradation by refusing to speak out, if afraid – or if ignorant, by even supporting it!? Or if indirectly gaining by it, by humming and hawing over it? Or if clueless, by looking for phantom enemies?

The most pernicious of degradations starts with our selves – deep down to the level of our souls! We can not solve the root problems of the world while averting our eyes from the root illnesses within our self!

What the heck is wrong with this subcontinent – this group of “gee-dars” – that opens us up to such humiliation from the world at large – and lets us take it all lying down – like we were God’s chosen people for THAT role?

We, the permanently submissive – like a low-order monkey in the monkey hieracrchy?

Whose women will get sold out as modern-day slaves before reaching double figures in age?

Whose women will get burnt – alive or not!

Whose women will get raped – of age or not!

And men – those paragons of valor! Those men in flying Ghauris!

Yes, THOSE men!

The men who will take the crummiest jobs in the world – those eternal coolies from the orient – the smiling Gangadins from the past and for the future forever – for eternity!

Those very men!

Our men who come back home and kick our women into unconsciousness, crush them into submission, destroy them into dust – rip them and rape them – make them pulp in body and worse, in mind!

This is no Pakistani problem – if you truly believe that then you are a worse dumb-ass than even this interactor!!! This damn thing is deeply-rooted in OUR culture, its OUR thinking, its in OUR psyche, its in OUR mindset, its all OURS! We made this baby all by ourselves!

This baby is all OURS!

Yours and mine!

# 31:

…with respect…please try to stay above the fray…read the message first and ignore the messenger…

as i read the thread this morning brother urstruly has partially answered in the end paragraph of #31…don’t feel like adding anything more to it at the moment

rgds

t

behram 29:


Are there any laws regarding punishment to a rapist?

bawa-ji laws are coming out of our ears!

my lament is for the will to implement the intentions of the laws (btw this applies to any law in pakistan)


submitted even more humbly,

t

#47, Beej {``To put it another way, while you and perhaps others may subscribe to the novel theory that wallowing in human excrement ...
In any case, blind emulation of another group is never a good idea``}

Beej,
Sir, again please accept my apologies. I never realized that Paki had the connotation of human excrement? Did the Brits know this or did they perhaps create this linkage? I will refrain then from using this smelly term for I do not wish to allude that you or anyone else of your ethnic or racial background can be equated to such an odorous substance.

As for blind emulation, I totally agree with you. That is why I never followed the Saudi or Wahabbi mantra hook, line, and sinker.

Please notice my exit wish to you.

Khuda Hafiz

#43 Salim_Chauhan

I perhaps thanked you a little bit prematurely, since you appear to be developing cold feet on your commitment already.

The bottom line is that the term of address needs to be acceptable to every recipient that one directs it to. I have a feeling that most of your intended recipients of the “Paki” term will not share your ardor for this essentially racial slur.

There may be a very small fraction of African Americans who may have adopted the practice you describe – to use the “n-word” mutually, as a show of solidarity and other reasons – the vast majority simply abhors the term. Also, the distinction between the African American and white Americans are much more obvious – there are few regional gradients and cultural variations as in the case of South Asians – so there are few reasons to doubt the bonafide intentions of the addresser. For a South Asian, it is impossible to verify that the term is not meant to degrade.

To put it another way, while you and perhaps others may subscribe to the novel theory that wallowing in human excrement at full-speed by some humans would cure all of human kind of all its inhibitions and limitations and lead every one to that brave new world – that may not be a universally accepted view, and perhaps not shared by many of the intended recipients of the term you appear to prefer.

In any case, blind emulation of another group is never a good idea. As far as the African American example is concerned, there is a long list of virtues that are already there to emulate – such as courage, diligence, faith, honesty, love, loyalty and service – many of which are applicable to our daily lives, at least for those who care about a decent living – and for all one knows – some of which could even benefit us as individuals!

#45, {``a word of caution: never use the n-word for blacks. You may get killed, if left alive then sued. even though they use it among themselves, they resent being called by that word by others``}

Exactly, Netizen. I was using the ``P`` word among ourselves. :)

Re #38.
``friend`` .... did you say the `prophet` too ???
hmmm ... that kinda sets me thinking .... u got the following options:

1. r u a muslim by any chance ? newhere in the world ?
If yes, start running for ur life boss.

2. if u r a non-muslim in a muslim country, advice 1 stands.

3. if u r a non-muslim in the ROW; are u slow or what ?

:)
regards
SN

#42, {``Thanks for reconsidering the use of the ethnic slur “Paki” – which I consider particularly detestful. ``}

Beej,
Thanks for sharing the details about the word Paki.
{``Paki (plural Pakis)
(derogatory, offensive and racist) A Pakistani, or, more generally, a person of who is perceived to be a Pakistani. Often applied to persons of any South Asian or Middle Eastern origin.

(derogatory, offensive and racist) Pakistani, or perceived to be Pakistani.

History
Became offensive during the 1960s when used by British tabloids to reffer to immigrants in a derogotary and racist manner. In recent times there has been a trend by second and third generation British Pakistanis to reclaim the word, eg the clothing comany PAK1 or the activist website http://paki.tv``}


As noted in your own finding, there is an attempt to reclaim the word Paki by Brit Pakistanianites.
Beej, as a Pakistanianite myself, I recommend that we use the word Paki so much that it stops being offensive. I think the African-Americans have done the same thing to nigger, black, and other such words.
I reiterate that the word Paki is very positive and means cleanliness, purity - something that we, Inshallah, will attain, despite our police, our military, our politicians, and our mullas.

Thanks,

Re: # 43

``I think the African-Americans have done the same thing to nigger, black, and other such words. ``

a word of caution: never use the n-word for blacks. You may get killed, if left alive then sued. even though they use it among themselves, they resent being called by that word by others.

#41 Salim_Chauhan

Thanks for reconsidering the use of the ethnic slur “Paki” – which I consider particularly detestful.

For the Indian or other South Asian crowds, who may be titillated by such usage, please remember that most individuals in the West who hurl such abuses make no distinction in their minds between one variety of South Asian and another.

Beej #39, {``I recommend using the word “Pakistanis” instead of “Pakis”. The latter is considered a derogatory term – and is not used by decent folks – at least in the USA.``}

Sorry, Beej, I was just trying to be frugal by using an abbreviation. If you prefer, I can use Pakistanianite - it is much longer and therefore, using your logic, more respectful. BTW, Paki means cleanliness, purity, etc. - I can see why that would upset you, because it is probably not true. :)
Don`t get too upset. Despite my last name, I am originally a Pakistanianite. :)

{``Also, if one were to replace “Pakistan” with “India” in your post #37, virtually everything will still hold – therefore, let’s not dump too much on India’s neighbor, and be wishy-washy! Let’s place the blame exactly where it belongs – the institution of the army, which rules and rules all alone – and nowhere else!``}

Beej,
I think you just contradicted yourself. Everything I was ``wishy-washy`` about is not the same in India and Pakistan. As you correctly pointed out, in Pakistan, the military rules and rules all alone. I don`t think that in India, the military does much, other than fight and protect the borders. :) Indian police, politicians, and judges are all probably corrupt, but nowhere near the audacity, universality, and thoroughness in corruption demonstrated by their Pakistanianite counterparts.

{``Also, perhaps some of your more inflammatory words could be toned down. It must be admitted that some of your language retains the vividness of the color images you have posted in the past.``}

If you find my imagination colorful and my words inflammatory, then I thank you for the compliment. The pen is indeed mightier than the sword. :)

In Pakistan there hasn`t been any legislation since July 4, 1977. This country is basically running on Presidential decrees called ordinances. According to the Constitution of 1973 President has powers to issue an interim decree which automatically expired unless validated by the Parliament. When Zia pissed in the face of the the constitution he changed this law and Presidential ordinances become permanent since then. There is some exception in the Sikha Shahi rule of BB AND NS where some legislation took place but mostly it was to increase the monthly allowances or other benefits of the memebers of Parliament.

This dictators rule is no exception. The effect of this lack of legislation has turned courts into mere Kangroo courts. In Pakistani courts today there are 10 million undecided cases pending - 10 million that is. Judges have been rendedred into no more than Huxley`s monkeys with the typewriters. It will probably take 2-3 centuries to clear the backlog. Is there a wonder why people are taking law into their hand, and using rape as one of the method to exact revenge on each other.

This a system that suits military dictators. Slowly, this dictator is paving the way for establishing Martial Law courts under the pretense that civil law has failed to deliver. To day, rape has become a state policy to intimidate general public into submission. Ms. Sonia Naz`s case is indicative of the mindset of military dictator and his goons. These goons in fact are sending a message to pakistani nation by the recent string of rape cases that ``ukhaaR lo jo ukhaaR sakte ho``

At this critical juncture in history we the people of Pakistan must have a unified voice against these attrocities that are being committed against us and our woman by these goons. For the sake of the honor of our sisters, mothers, wives, and daughters we must stop accusing each other of American agents and especially the NGOs, and although NGOs take money from Western countries to twist the facts to blame it on religion and our values, they must also stop it until these attrocities stop. These dictators are taking advantage of our differences. We must not let them.

Re#37 by Salim_Chauhan

Mr. Chauhan,

I recommend using the word “Pakistanis” instead of “Pakis”. The latter is considered a derogatory term – and is not used by decent folks – at least in the USA.

Also, if one were to replace “Pakistan” with “India” in your post #37, virtually everything will still hold – therefore, let’s not dump too much on India’s neighbor, and be wishy-washy! Let’s place the blame exactly where it belongs – the institution of the army, which rules and rules all alone – and nowhere else!

Also, perhaps some of your more inflammatory words could be toned down. It must be admitted that some of your language retains the vividness of the color images you have posted in the past.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Mohar #36
I am not sure how this incidence can be tolerated anywhere. DSP in Sonia Soz is still under investigation. But this Mushy guy is now on record justifying such behavior. Their should be a no-tolerance policy towards everyone - even if that person is prophet himself, everywhere - in India, Pakistan, and rest of the world.

This Mushy guy should have been locked up in a NY jail cell and given an opportunity to earn a green card.

Azra {``But in Pakistan, she is not even considered a human, let alone a Goddess. In Pakistan, she is a subordinate meant to follow men blinded by religion and traditional values, and ruled by an army dictator with the wisdom of an ignorant peasant.``}

Azra,
I can understand and even agree with your rage about rape in Pakistan. But, I think that your wholesale condemnation may have been justified if you listed all the other ills that are associated with the audacity to commit rapes (and other crimes) without fear of reprisals. Let`s face it, the problem with Pakis is not rape - it`s the confidence of criminals that there is no retribution. The police are corrupt (in fact they are the primary rapists along with the military in Pakistan) and the judges are prostitutes, the religious leaders are blind, and the women are barking up the wrong tree. If women really want change, a change that will result in punishing rapists, along with the other criminals, they need to stop pressuring their husbands for financial gain that is needed for their unchecked materialism. Materialism in Pakistan is causing corruption, and corruption is resulting in the absence of any law enforcement. Once laws are ignored, criminals will do what they please - rob, molest, rape, plunder, kill, and yes even defraud. How many people have lied about their situations just for a sake of an American or Canadian visa? There was this case of a brother who attempted to bring his sister to America, claiming that she was his legally-married wife. With stories like these, compassion and understanding fall victim to greed and stupidity. Mushy showed that he can be as stupid as most Pakis.

#6 by Mantolives
``I love it how Indians love to exploit all such things and it gets their creative juices flowing... when Pakistan is getting a bad rep... This.. coming from the land of millions of phoolan devis, honour, caste etc. ``

Wow! so now it is ``our internal issue`` stuff. When it is Kashmiri`s right than it becomes Pakistani`s birthright to get involved. When it is a question of human rights in their own country than it becomes a question of ``biradari``!!

Yaseer - BTW is your family interested in migrating to Canada?

Re: # 35

yasser`s family already has US green cards - so does Mushy`s family. So these guys are all set. ..... we are not sure how the green cards came - was there any kind of ``staged rape`` or even ``staged flogging``? .....we don`t know....

I read today an article in the Washington Post clearly stating that three reporters had been present at the interview where Mushy made that unbelieveable remark. Mushy`s aides were present and took notes.

The article says that the interview had been taped, and that the tapes were reviewed. Washington Post, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, confirmed that Mushy DID say what he was quoted as having said.

The truth is clear.

The President of Pakistan lied.

Aniticipating the volley of protests that may follow, let me say the following :

- Someone else had made the comment, not Mushy. Q. Who was that person ?

- It was all a Zionist plot by an imperialistic newspaper. Q. If so, why did Mushy give a taped interview to this paper ?

- Mushy just told the truth - things are like that it Pakistan, and Mushy cannot do much about it. Q. Why did he bring out in the open the real state of things in Pakistan, and thus shame his country before the whole world ?

- Mushy was not the right mood when he said that, just a slip. Q - Was he having his menses, or was he being raped ?

Bottom line - President Pervez Musharraf made a totally indiscreet statement, and now he is lying to avoid guilt. Is he a bit like Bill Clinton ? Or did he have a couple of ``barra peg``s before he went on stage ?

This entire incident brings shame on Pakistan. I share with all my Pakistani friends the shame of this affair. I cannot deny that there are similar incidents in India, and that many in the West would equate India with Pakistan as countries ``who did that sort of thing``.

Unfortunately, Mushy is Supreme. That is the pity.

India threw out Indira after the Emergency, and borught in a mish-mash Government, which India again threw out after three years because it did not perform.

India threw out ``India Shining`` - because BJP made India shine for the rich, not the poor.

I do wish Pakistan gets back to democracy some day. Seems unlikely, since the democratic leaders produced to date are pathetic.

Ho Hum - Mushy Zindabad, and Pakistani Army - jeetey raho.

A lot of boot lickers on this board would agree with Mush on this bit about Canadian visas. Through this novel method the Paki General has shown his willingness to help a lot of Pakistanis seeking migration to Canada ....................................


Outrage at Musharraf rape remarks

The Karachi protest attracted 19 activist and women`s groups
Pakistani activists have reacted with outrage to recent comments on rape victims by President Pervez Musharraf.
He said that rape was a ``money-making concern`` and many argued it was a way to get money and a visa to emigrate.

Pakistan`s most-high profile rape victim, Mukhtar Mai, told the BBC no woman could subject herself to ``such a horrendous experience`` to make money.

Women`s groups and activists protested in Karachi on Friday, shouting: ``Down with chauvinism``.

`Money for justice`

The president made his comments in an interview with the Washington Post on 13 September, incensing campaigners and others at home.

``You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern,`` he said.

``A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.``

PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF

A lot people say if you want to go abroad... get yourself raped


In Karachi on Friday, 19 rights and advocacy groups vented their anger at the remarks, holding banners such as: ``Who wants to be a millionaire - just get raped!``

Sumar Mallah, a fisherman whose five-year-old daughter was raped and killed on 5 September, was at the rally.

Mr Mallah said: ``The police and the rapists have been insisting that I accept money and forget about my daughter. I will never settle for money. I want justice.``

Activist Fauzia Burney said: ``General Musharraf`s remarks are so shocking because they are so removed from reality.``

Mukhtar Mai, who shot to world attention after being gang raped in 2002, allegedly on the orders of a village council or panchayat, earlier told the BBC: ``I offer all the riches I`ve made out of the panchayat-enforced gang-rape to the president in return for justice.``

The Women`s Action Forum described the president`s comments as ``outrageous``.

Last week President Musharraf told a conference on violence against women in Islamabad that Pakistan should not be singled out for its treatment of women.

He also lashed out at rights groups for their role in highlighting cases such as Ms Mai`s outside the country. Leading rights groups called the conference a ``farce``.

The president`s critics say he pays only lip service to cracking down on the abuse of women, hundreds of whom are raped and murdered every year in so-called honour cases in Pakistan.

Despite government protestations that it is doing much to help women, many of those who try to register cases of rape and violence find it as hard as ever to do so, campaigners say.

temporal,

What are you going to do with Musharraf now that he`s talking the talk you wanna hear:

He also criticised Islamic societies for failing to embrace modernity. ``Many of us remain wrapped in a time warp, still struggling to reconstruct our political, social and economic systems to respond to the challenges of our times,``he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

He seems to be your Great Whitish-Brown (more like a yellow) Hope in Pakistan.

You`ve got a dilemma on your tiny li`l hands, don`t you boy?

:-D~~

Dear Azra Rashid,

When I read this article of yours the first time around, I was so outraged that all I could come up with was the poem I put up in #5. (I am sorry if the poem created a distraction.)

At this time, I would like to list my reasons for liking this article.

Some may not like your title. However, putting up an eye-catching title to draw attention to the underlying content is not a new thing – it is a well-accepted practice among newspapers since time immemorial and yes, it has been done again and again even on this web site. Besides, the title, like the body, is an author’s own prerogative – if others don’t like it, they have the freedom to write their own stuff on that topic (which, because of unknown reasons, somehow gets rarely done)!

Of course, it is well known that forced sex or rape is a crime of violence – whether the victim gives in or not! It is the height of absolute ignorance to imply that getting it “up” automatically involves eroticism – the animal world is full of examples of the opposite – and time and again, it has been known that sexual predators – devoid of any delicate feelings for anyone but themselves – are still able to get it “up” – whether the victim is a woman, a child, or in some cases even another male. To imply that by making the title about “getting it up” somehow it is being “sexualized” and therefore being trivialized is utter, utter nonsense. Therefore, I believe that the title is accurate on the mark and serves its purpose.

My views on Musharraf are simple – I am sorry if it hurts the feelings of individuals on either side of the India Pakistan border – I don’t see him as the legitimate “president” of Pakistan. (It is the height of absurdity to call this guy Prez Musharraf in the same way as referring to Prez Kalam!) The pure and simple fact is that though he may be a perfectly personable and likeable person as an individual, he owes his position to being the head of the army and little else (except perhaps the opportunities from a lousy field of politicians and a docile population (and this site has been in endless discussions regarding what factors have made that population docile – army, feudals, beards, culture, whatever - there could be a number of these factors, or combinations thereof). Having said all that, he is probably better than the other (army) leaders even though, from the U.S. point of view, which is the only one of concern to me, no matter which one from that pack ends up leading the pack – they will dance to the same tune – due to the same reasons that this one did!

And the culprit for this particular outrage which is focus of the article is not Musharraf the individual – but the institution that he appears to lead and claims to control.

The way I see it, the “taste” that was administered in the mouth of Ms. Naz was – symbolically a taste of humiliation that brute power, symbolized by the army, released “in her face” and perhaps in her mouth – and was administered symbolically to EVERY woman in Pakistan to show in no unclear terms who the REAL boss is – and vicariously to every woman in the world, that the man is the real boss! If Musharraf then turns around and starts talking “goal-moal” language to divert attention – or others do it on his behalf by pulling “baal kee khaal” on various parts of the trivialities which would invariably be in ANY article – they are certainly not part of the ultimate solution to these problems – since they do not have the guts to look at the problem in face. Pure and simple!

Your article brought the realization of all of the above facts to my mind, and that`s why I like it.

Sincerely,
Beej.

#26:

There`s got to be more than just the Army or feudals or Islam to it.

yes! the two obvious things that stand out

* the perpetrators are males

* there is no rule of law ( hence the perpetrators are seldom punished to the extent of law)

Re: # 27

That`s right, trivialize everything from far away using the American BULL...horn!

That`s exactly why I put the questions up there to see how much the self-proclaimed purveyors of Justice like yourself are aware of the truth, and what they`re capable of delivering to rectify the problem. NOTHING! except polluting the airwave and taking up precious bytes on the internet.

Like Mantolives said, that`s what ANAA, PANA, DEDH-ANAS are all about, just like PMU, PMS, SMS and whatever else you`ve got running around in diapers there. I say this because I`ve lived in the HELL-HOLE you call home - the USA for a major portion of my adult life. I have dealt with these impotent limp-noodles for orgs, and know what this house looks like from the inside.

DO NOT assume that everyone on this board is just as ignorant as you.

Musharraf is a dumbass for saying what he did. But that`s exactly he was referring to. These ana-panas, are todays East India Co. are good for nothing but the stirring-pot; making money and getting some press out of exploiting a victim`s predicament. Because if you call them to help out on ground zero, these -shi*t for brains are no where to be found.

I live in Pakistan and work with slums and shanti towns where police is never seen outside the thana. While the situation is not as peachy as one would like, it is not what the western press or our diaspora make it out to be....a kind of Iraqi WMD syndrome.

Like Beej said, a message is being sent here, not just to the women, but the entire society to demand its subservience. In many such cases, woman may have nothing to do with it at all. They just get caught in the middle of two power wielding parties - not necessarily individual men - obliviously involved in a size-competition. And I have this nagging feeling that Sonia Naz was just that kind of victim.

So, quit talking like a parrot with a blue passport who thinks he`s got it all figured out.

:-|~~

Re: # 27

Dear temporal:

You write [* there is no rule of law ( hence the perpetrators are seldom punished to the extent of law)]

Are there any laws regarding punishment to a rapist? I always thought that the closest law we had in Pakistan is the one on ``zina`` where by the actual act has to be witnessed by four witnesses. If I am in error, please feel free to correct it.

As usual, most humbly submitted,

B

In my opinion, there`s a lot more to Sonia Naz case than meets eye. I don`t know the whole history, and internet doesn`t offer much beyond headlines. Could anyone please direct me to place[s] where one can discover

- what did her husband do?
- what did/does she do?
- why her husband was missing?
- who does she suspect for it?
- why she walked into the parliament instead of a local police station to inquire about her husband`s disappearance?
- who are the influential people of her district, including MNAs and MPAs?

In short, what makes her case so appealing to Asma J and officials from US consulate in Lahore to take personal interest in it, when many cases like these occur every day almost all over the country?

Why don`t the two aforementioned parties help us collect all those cases to put some weight into the struggle and make it a movement?

Again, there are a lot of unanswered questions, and they need to be answered before something could be made out of it, lest Sonia Naz suffers the Mukhtara and Shazia fate too. Like another author, Brig. Ali, said in ``Rape of another Kind``, gang rapes have become institutionalized.

- Who is behind these institutions? These couldn`t just pop up like daisies in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason. The climate, soil, space, and everything else these institutions need to thrive have to be there.

If one claims that it just happened and no particular group of people is behind it, then why doesn`t it happen to the female politicians, women of the armed forces brass, the women of the feudals, etc?

I for one don`t buy the theory that it is one group`s fault or another. Neither the jali mullahs, nor the feudals, the secular elite, rich, poor or any group of people benefit from this. At least not in any way comprehensible for me.

So who or what is behind this sudden spate of gang rapes in Pakistan within the few short recent years? And every single culprit has walked free! WHY? HOW? There`s got to be more than just the Army or feudals or Islam to it.

:-(~~

Dear Azra,

There are some very strong moments in this article. A convincing argument.

Perhaps we should just fight to be treated with the respect and dignity that all human beings should be. Unfortunately, a society calls its most marginalized citizens deities when they have debased them past all limits of decency.

Being a human being should be enough.

best,

S.

Kalpana and Azra

…women are at the bottom of the totem pole in desilands

…empowerment is the only game… a long term project and outlook is needed to turn the tables…something along the lines of micro-financed projects like the grameen bank and a mix of poverty alleviation projects

there is a fellow in karachi who was here in TO recently collecting donations for a project in karachi…his charity or foundation pays the young street beggars Rs.20 per day to get them off the streets and into the make-shift school room…

economic empowerment is the best hope for the women…the desi male’s (of which i am one) mentality is suspect, corrupt and vested and needs to be prodded sufficiently and intermittently to provide this empowerment

lve

t

Re: # 23

What kind of a perverted pleasure do you and your friends get in misrepresenting the situation?

Do you think a common man is enjoying what happened to Sonia Naz; that he does not fear it could happen to any woman of his family?

What is the matter with you dumbasses?

Why are you so hell-bent on creating a seapration between general men and women where it doesn`t exist?

Rs20 for each child?!?!?!

Does your friend know that these kids take the Rs20, go to the make-shift school, bunk out as soon as they can just like their `managers` tell them, go back out and make Rs200 in the next couple of hours while playing on the streets?

That`s what I`m talking about...you dip-shits either don`t know, and don`t care to find out, who is behind these beggers and rapists. You just get on a freakin` bandwagon and parrot out what the East India Co`s new American bosses order you to fart out.

Hear this Mr. Ahmed Chalabi with Pakistan Origin Card, empowerment doesn`t mean you further alienate them from the rest of the society; just so when the other groups become empowered (and that always happens in the circle of life) they crush these women forever. You simply cannot empower only one particular group to help the entire society. You have to take them all together. I hope you`ll remember that in your long-term project outlook for East India American branch.

:-|~~

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#17 Netizen

Dear Zen muni,

If you will kindly take the trouble to read #14, it would be evident that I did NOT set out to write the poem in #5 – it happened rather spontaneously – a phenomenon regular residents of this devious and dorky web site may be unfamiliar with!

Tell you what – YOU write an article analogous to this one on India, and we will see if I (or others on this site) get their rivers of writing roaring, or gears of tears turning!

I agree with your observation in #18 that it should not be turned into an India-Pakistan slugfest. We should move away from the poem and return the focus to the article – and the serious issues therein. I question the motives of those who have been talking about my poem, instead of facing the very troubling questions highlighted here regarding the abuse of power.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: # 19


``Dear Zen muni, ``

thanks a good nic. I will definitely use it, if ``Netizen`` is ever exiled from chowk :)

``Tell you what – YOU write an article analogous to this one on India, and we will see if I (or others on this site) get their rivers of writing roaring, or gears of tears turning! ``

I was not challenging you. For a ``peotically``-challenged person like me, it would be a difficult task to do what you have done in #5. Just wanted to use your gift for the benefit of our country and its citizens, too.

BTW, does Beej mean ankur?

sincerely

#12 Azra.Rashid

Thanks. And thanks for writing this article!

Sincerely,
Beej.

#9 FarzanaVersey

Dear Ma’m,

Sorry the deliberately provocative tone of the poem in #5 hurt your sensibilities – I can fully understand how it can offend the senses of those who may have delicate constitutions or those who only want to bring about changes a little sloooow….ly!

Not to offend any profound practitioners of the trade around here – but I do not consider myself a poet – I did not set out to write that piece in #5 – it just came out in ALL of two minutes – yes, by itself. If there are any people around here who have not already understood it – the term “gun” in the poem refers to brute power and its abuse!

Now that I have delivered this poem – it’s my baby and I stand by it!

The matters of “taste” are highly subjective – I’m sure if you ask Ms. Sonia Naz – she will fully agree that her sense of “taste” underwent a “paradigm-shift” as soon as she received her mouthful!

Feel free to write your own poem if this “minor” issue riles you up even the least bit! Nobody is holding your pen, or perhaps speaking figuratively, your very own “gun”!

Sincere regards,
Beej.

Re: # 14

Dear Mr. Beej:

It is pretty obvious around here that the `bandwagon` is enticing enough for people to jump onto. Say your piece in a few sentences -- and do not give a damn about how it is said.

And please do not worry about my ``delicate sensibilities``. I am rather proud of them. And I do not need you or anyone else to tell me what issues I must write on. The evidence is there for all to see.

I am sure ``standing by your baby`` is a matter of great honour for you...now if only you did not try and explain what it meant...for you have revealed how the heck you feel about it by making the following statement: ``The matters of “taste” are highly subjective – I’m sure if you ask Ms. Sonia Naz – she will fully agree that her sense of “taste” underwent a “paradigm-shift” as soon as she received her mouthful!``

Wish you would put your janitor-lion efforts to better use rather than merely to get all hot and bothered about a comment. Your reaction to my civil response is rather revealing. Please flash your patronising sword at others who get taken in by a bit of rhyme -- I am not biting.

And yes, I do not intend indulging in this discussion on your poem any further. And since I stand by all my comments made in post #9, I have said my piece on the piece too.

Best wishes,
FV

while questioning whether musharraf has been misquoted or not, remember, this is the man who personally jhaRofied a lecture on mukhtaran and told her she was ruining pakistan`s reputation or something to that effect in the world. as if pakistan was true to its name for all these past fifty-eight years. as if what happened to mukhtaran, and countless women didn`t matter.

arjuna: #11

dude, you are free to say whatever you want to wherever you want to as per the free speech you so righteously defend (as do many of us) but why insult your own intelligence in the process?

Hey Farzana..Dr Shazia is in the UK...can we now apply the logic you use the pandits? I mean, come on..it`s the UK...a million times better than being voluntarily relocated to another part of India....

I feel sorry for my Pakistani friends.

While it is true that every country has some record, be it big or small, of abuse of women, it is completely astonishing to hear that the President of a country can actually state, in public, that the accusation of rape by the woemn is his country is a money-making racket, and even more so, is a route to escape to Canada ( why Canada. in particular ?).

In any democratic country such a president would be instantly deposed - he would have to leave his chair.

Unfortunately, Pakistan is condemned by its own volition of being ruled by its Army. The President has absolute power. He can say whatever he wants. He can abuse anyone, even 50% of his people (the women of Pakistan), and he will have no problem holding on to his power.

In my limited view, this matches the power, and the idiocy, of Idi Amin. Only difference - the Israelis knocked his teeth in when he stepped over the mark. Will someone do that to dear old Mushy, who has (allegedly) foot in the mouth disease ?

But - has the President been misquoted ? I hear that he claims he has.

What is the truth ?

Azra:

What Prez Musharraf said is disgusting, and to question him and his role as head of state is incumbent on every citizen of the country, and women everywhere.

Someone should be asking the President: why would anyone go through such torture to end up in Canada? And how does he assume expats in Canada are millionaires?

Facile? Yes. And deliberately so...

For, I wish to draw your attention to the headline of your piece. I do not understand how and why you came up with it. It is striking, but do you realise we are not talking sex here, but rape? The dynamics are different.

It is a known fact that rape is about power and a tool used in war...Suketu Mehta by saying that rape is the beginning of all wars is being even more facile and alarmist.

And I wish you would have examined the politics of the goddess syndrome in most parts of the world. They are designed to keep women in their place -- as mute witnesses as their destinies are written by their so-called devotees.

The attributes of the goddesses you mentioned are full of the frailties that are exploited by patriarchal societies everywhere.

Instead of saluting these, it is time we fought for women to be just women and to have complete rights over their minds, bodies and destinies.
- - -

Yasser:

This is not an Indian vs. Pakistan issue. I would expect you to raise your voice had an Indian leader made a similar comment.

There are some of us who relentlessly pursue the ills that beset our own backyards...and take on those who turn a blind eye....let us not narrow our visions, though...
- - -
#5:

That poem was in poor taste for the language used in this particular context.

hey manto..i`m thinking of starting an online petition to open a canadian consular office in the tribal areas so paki women seeking canadian visas and riches can have a one stop shop..they can get raped and get visas without having to travel much....

maybe the paki army can provide some ``visa facilitation services``... we know they have enough experience in this field..in return, they can get a fixed percentage of the money these women will make once they get their visas and millions... it`s not like they`re busy doing anything else..like fighting to get back Kashmir or something....

Re: # 8

arjun dude

lets not make it a india-pak slugfest.

Womans situation is our own backyard is pathetic, though improving. Wife beating, harassing of bride for dowry, sexual harassments at work place etc. are common. our subcontinent has produced many woman PMs but for a average woman it is still a long ardous way.

#6 by Mantolives on September 18, 2005 4:39am PT


This.. coming from the land of millions of phoolan devis,


Here`s where you don`t get it...or maybe you get it and choose to be in denial...

I`m sure India has more rapes per capita than the land of the pure...this is about the number of women who were raped and then put on an exit control list under the personal orders of the military dictator..or women who were raped and then chased out of their country by military intelligence...

I love it how Indians love to exploit all such things and it gets their creative juices flowing... when Pakistan is getting a bad rep... This.. coming from the land of millions of phoolan devis, honour, caste etc.

We have lots of faults... but may I ask my Indian friends to please put their own house in order first? Despite being the much touted largest democracy- the situation on the ground is pathetically similar to us- the scum of the earth.

Re: # 6
ed
Hello Yasser:

Phoolan Devi stood up on her two feet, with head high adn gun in her hand with a group of bandits of her own. Took on the Thakurs with guns. Got elected to Parliament, and got married to a Thakur of her choice before she died.

Do you think Pakistani system is ready to allow Mukhtaran Mai to do this?


Hello Farzana:

Head of nation saying this in a press interview which is on tape (interviewer has told BBC news), cannot be compared to Suketu Mehta`s statement. The President can dance around with words instead he should rise above and aplogize to Pakistani women and I am sure he did not mean it, spontaniety brings out the sub-conscious mind set where such feelings, desires and habits reside any way.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere that there is more machoism and male pride in Pakistani male. I have certainly seen Pakistani females (my friends wives) who are successful professionals, doctors and engineers. They behave so docile and submissive when it comes to dealing with their husband, father and sons. I have a wonderful Pakistani American friend. His daughter is training to be a lawyer and is a close friend with my daughter. My daughter tells me how my friend`s daughter dresses, talks and behaves when she goes out alone or with my daughter. And how she dresses, talks and behaves when is with her family members. She even had a long term relationship with an American boy that none of her family members or their Pakistani American friends kids knew. She only confided about it with my daughter, as she felt safe in sharing it with my daughter. She recently broke up with her boy friend and was suffering in pain that I could see when I met her while she had come to meet my daughter, but was surprised that her parents could not see. So I asked my daughter if evry thing was fine with my Pakistani-American froeind`s daughter. I think this filter that gets put, which hurts and destroys communication between father and daughters among Pakistani Americans and their daughters. It is almost schiczophrenic, completely two different personalities.

I am not implying that such problem does not exist in India, but I know it does not exist among Indo-American friends that I have here, including Muslim Indian friends that I have. One of the Muslim Indian friends is from a very famous Indian family, are openly orthodox shia muslim. Brought up their daughter as very traditional muslim. Even went to India found a groom, a wonderful boy, and got her married while she was 19 or 20. Both parents have studied at Oxford. Their fathers have studied at Oxford. The wife is a very successful high tech entreprenuer. Husband is a successful venture capitalist. This Muslim Indian couple have brought their daughter with the same traditional consistency, in such a way that their daughter behaves consistently, I know it because she is also my daughters friend.

Anil

Anil

Re: # 6 manto:

``but may I ask my Indian friends to please put their own house in order first? Despite being the much touted largest democracy- the situation on the ground is pathetically similar to us- the scum of the earth. ``

well said. This is not the time/issue to ridicule others. Situation within india is not so rosy. Even though no appointed/elected official will give as an outrageous statement, the situation of Bharatitya nari is not very different either.

For Whom the Gun Fires
(By Beej)

Woman
Pakistani woman
The purest of the pure
So we make sure

With burqa
We drape you
With gun
We rape you

But
At times
The gun can not fire
It can not even get it up
For it only fires
To loot
And it only rises
To salute!

Re: # 5 beej:

can you pen a similar one for the suffering of bharatiya nari:

something like Pradeeps

mat rho, mat rho radhike
sun le ye binati hamari
jo vipida se har jayee
vho nahi hind ki nari
vho nahi hind ki nari
mat rho, mat rho ....

Re: # 5
Excellent poem beej. This is exactly how the situation is in Pakistan.

Azra,

As a human being I oppose and abhor violence -especially sexual assaults on women. As a Pakistani, I oppose Musharraf, his stupid statements etc and find these acts obviously reprehensible, let me be the one to shoulder the unpopular cause and ask you this... The protest of less than a hundred people that dissipated in New York yesterday... passed out a leaflet and a press release in which it was said that a rape is estimated to occur in Pakistan every two hours. This is an estimate mind you... though I agree with it in entirety... completely reprehensible... but I think one should also consider that in the United States according to FBI reports- a rape case is reported every 5 minutes. Now this the US we are talking about, the mightiest and most powerful country in the world, where women are not treated like women in Pakistan... and even if we make population adjustments for statistics... there is no comparison... logically speaking ... if things are better in the US for example- and a rape is happening every five minutes there- then Pakistan with a population more than half of the US population should have had a woman being raped more often than the US... let alone in estimates.

Pakistan`s society is becoming stronger and people are getting more vocal ... women are speaking up... people are asking for better law and order, roads, improvement and they are getting them,... None of this is thanks to any ``ANAA`` or any other such organisation I am afraid. Expatriates of any kind are always cut off reality... You don`t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the ultimate impact of ``ANAA`` aside from giving its office bearers some 15 minutes of fame has done NOTHING for Mukhtar Mai or any of the other rape victims... they can`t do anything... except try and win popularity for themselves...

This is callousness of the worst kind... and may I be forgiven for saying this for I have always found Chowk founders and editors to be very decent people... they too have been guilty of similar callousness ... this desire to become the martyr in someone else`s cause especially when your ``martyrdom`` doesn`t do jacksh-t for that cause.

-YLH

``President Musharraf blatantly made comments suggesting that rape has become a money-making concern in Pakistan. ``

He does not have much to say anything except giving lame excuses. He is very much concerned about protecting his image in front of the whole world. I wish to bake these small minded, egoist, bstard guys, who rape woman, in the oven with 1000 temperature.

Money making concern, huh..did that girl ask SP to rape her because she wants to go to canada or have some immigration. How many other innocent girls have been raping in the pakistan but their parents can not get justice because they are scared. Scared of the people, and society. When people has started complaing and raisin voice about it, our president considered it as a money-making strategy instead of giving justice. Why is that? Why we, women, can not ask for justice. Why we are not considered as human being? Why we have not been giving support. Why we are always being treated like that.

On the other hand, we are called muslims, living in ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan. How much we have been practicing Islam, we are just practicing our stupid norms and worshipping our traditions. Bstard Guys!! I want to shoot them all.

Well written...

I can only add that indeed he has brought disgrace to the country to suggest that women get raped in order to obtain Canadian immigration.

Does he not have any shame to even think about such a thing, let alone say it ?

Azra

Timely article. Musharaf has the knack of giving the most stupid statement at a wrong time and at a wrong place.


nhk