What will I teach my daughter?

Dear hamidm;

Before thise article leaves the board, I would like to reiterate one point. It`s your prerogative to scrub the floors, wash the bathroom with a toothbrush and paste, cook sehri and iftari for everyone after getting back from work and do whatever you have to do. There was no malice or sarcasm in my previous post towards you.

To each their own.

To share with you something very personal: I do not believe in having babies in the worldly sense. I treat my projects and various initiatives I have on my plate as my babies. I take care of them and gain an immense sense of contentment as each of my babies reaches a certain stage. I would lie if I say that I do not have vested interest in the good upbringing and grooming of my babies. I am very passionate and territorial about them. I invest time, emotions and myself throughout their lifecycle. My way of seeing the concept may seem an eccentric way to others. Do I care? Hell, no!

Re: # 149

Sattar:

The blackberry example was sweet.

hamidm, an after thought …

… and zahra chiding you on less-than-maximum utility of your time is just as annoying as tahmed telling me not to pick up women on chowk. wtf??? We live in atrocious times, among cultural savages who, when their population reaches the critical mass, have historically brought about the downfall of human thought and civilization. If lectures on quran don’t kill you, using a blackberry to keep track of your dry-cleaning surely will …

Re: # 146

subroto,

............ you are right............ but those wonderful years go by in a flash, so enjoy every moment ! ............

Teach her about Jinnah :)

AFS

Jeez! Where are the younger fathers on this thread? Azmat the fact that you are already thinking about how to bring up your daughter makes you a good dad in my eyes. Now forget about everything that you wrote here. There are manuals on bringing up children but unfortunately the children refuse to cooperate. The most important lesson to be imparted is not about religion and morals and tolerance - its about potty training. In the coming months you will be surprised how much your conversation with your spouse will revolve around the bowel movements of the young one. Get used to the terms ``hard, soft or lovely jubbly``.

Discipline is important but be a kid with your kid. I often hear my young one say ``My dad`s silly`` but there is a sense of pride in that. Hide and seek, dodge ball, getting a ride on the trampoline, or just running away from the ``tickly monster`` these games may not be taught in schools but apart from being fun help you bond with your children in a manner that text books can`t explain. Read from the scriptures but tell your stories too. My elder one who turned eight this year is a voracious reader but even now she will join her four year old sister in clamouring for a ``make up story``.

While Mummy may do the bulk of the cooking it is the dads who make the special stuff from time to time, like the tandoori chicken, pizzas, pasta, noodles, pies and meat curries. Notice the absence of green vegetables. I still love reminding my wife of the time my dearest first born said ``Mama is you learn to make tandoori chicken like papa then you will know everything``. So while you may waste your precious hours in making things for them - it is always worth it. Of course there will be days when that dish so lovingly made and a favourite dish to boot does not appeal any more. ``Yukky! I don`t like it, I never eat it``.

But its not just them who will be learning. Its a whole new learning experience for you.
``Pick up your toys S``.
``Why Dadi?``
``Because you can`t leave them on the floor. You must learn to look after your things``.
``But why Dadi? Why do I have look after them?``
``Because things cost money, you can`t be careless and throw them around. Nothing in life comes for free``.
``Not everything. Something`s are free``.
``Like what?``
``Like a rainbow. You can`t buy rainbow in a shop``.
Wisdom from a four year old. Sometimes kids can teach us a valuable lesson.

Correction:

Paul McCartney`s concert dates - 10/04 and 10/05.

MJ,

….. I do get a decent meal every now and then … esp. after sex. Although at times mrs sattar can’t help but wonder if I really have a job … or if I leave the house every morning and hang around downtown pubs all day. Come to think of it, it’s not a bad way to spend the day … if only I can come up with money to pay the bills at the end of each month …..

Sattar,

You are such a poor fellow. Mrs. sattar should acknowledge your right to a decent meal. I get away with not cooking at a lesser price than you. Or may be, Mrs. Sattar is too hard to handle for a humbler man like you.

hamidm,

Agreed somewhat, but cooking and cooking are two different things. It is one thing to cook when the family is gone shopping and the mistress is out of town … and another to cook everyday, to feed one’s stomach as well as one’s gene-carriers. Heck, as a hobby even I enjoy cooking … and am quite good at it too. In my college days I also found it to be an inexpensive, more efficient way to seduce members of the charming gender …

But when it comes to nurturing-instincts (… and I hate having to use such new-age terms), women are way ahead of men. They undergo backbreaking tasks of bearing, delivering, and nurturing children … as somewhat of a crude example … and are tooled with supporting instincts as well. When men are expected to look after infants, infants start dying of negligence. No kidding! Almost every such case involves a father or hired-help … but hardly ever a mother. This new age women’s lib stuff has built expectations of men, but has failed to acknowledge men’s inaptness at performing such tasks.

++++++++++++

I have gotten into foolish and dangerous arguments with mrs sattar over this … who thinks it is not fair that she is having to look after 2.5 kids all day. These appear to be light-hearted discussions … but my instincts told me that if mishandled, they can assume a life of their own and degenerate into full-blown altercations …

… so I laid it on her … asking it if it is fair that I have to slave away the entire day … fighting traffic, dropping kids at school, keeping track of their vaccinations, putting up with assholes at work, picking up groceries on way home … what the hell for??? And weekends are spent fixing broken bicycles and looking for carpets (they are now called accent rugs) that match the color of the sofa, even under different shades of sunlight. And if I cannot even get a decent meal at the end of the way, what’s the fucking point? And where does all the money go? … you may wonder. On mortgage of an overpriced house that I had to get to get mrs sattar off my back, groceries, kid’s tuition, auto insurance, family outings etc. etc. I hardly see any of it for myself. If I were single I’d work a few months every year and divide my time between mexico, rio, and bangkok. And no, it’s not the local cuisines that draw me to these places. The point being … marriage is a damn mess to begin with … and whatever of it can be salvaged, may very well also go to hell if women start acting like men. Everyone has to give something up … and the rest is bogus, modern, women’s lib nonsense …

… mrs sattar conceded that I had a point and withdrew. It was so easy that it almost scared me … and for months I wondered if she is quietly coming up with a new line of argument. She hasn’t so far … but what curse the future holds, I can’t say. But you’ll surely know … I may need your advice making it work as long you have (or claim to have … I sometimes have doubts about you …)

cooking food is like making music... and it could be avery relaxing experience.... i never knew that until i had to start living on my own..

hamidm sir:
if you dont mind, could you please post your qorma recipe with merlot sauce ( if i remember correctly you mentioned this improv. on qorma long time back)...?

i might wanna give it a try...

many thanks.

Hamidm:

On a personal note: I am amazed at your versatility. As a busy single professional, I have no time to indulge in household chores due to my professional and personal committments that are my top priority. There are only 24 hours in a day. If I waste my precious hours in taking care of the stuff that is not worth my time then I am dead. I`d rather outsource that than worry about it. I did have to look into cooking first time in my life last year due to strong food allergies and the fact that my GI Specialist was not happy with my eating out routine.

I am amazed that you have the luxury of time to cook and clean, be the mother and the father, in addition to being one of the breadwinners. It`s certainly your personal matter but I think you need to get a LIFE. Your children will have their own life. Your wife will have her own life. You seem to be wasting enormous amount of time on silly household chores and discussing the red and white stuff on Chowk that is poisonous for the GI System. You may be doing the former to show your support to the women of the world and make the men on Chowk feel envious, whereas the latter must be out of peer pressure :)

You are an anomaly on Chowk on the basis of the various hats you wear. That`s a compliment to you! I think Azmat should retain your advisory services. He will be all set till his daughter grows up.

Please no more Pink Floyd quizzes. I won`t mind Queen or Cyndie Lauper (based on my current mood). Paul McCartney is playing in NY City sometime around the Columbus Day weekend in October. You may like to grab the tickets and enjoy the show vs. cleaning the bathrooms with a tooth brush (I cannot forget that case study) and cooking wine mixed cuisines.

All the best and happy ramazan to you.

I have had the honour of working as a cooked food delivary guy a year ago.

To my surprize, all the cooks in the kitchens were men, even boys. There were not a single woman that I saw. But surprizingly again, most of the waitresses were girls, mostly good looking.

Desi women cook not because they have good talents, but because their husband is at least more than 4 years older than them and does not want to cook himself. Plus, he usually establishes this `fact` that he is the more capable bread earner and cooking does not fall into his area of responsibilities. It is okay as long as he keeps on bringing the money. But he is really a bad man when he does not cook while collecting employment benefits.

My father loves so much to cook for him that my mother has become out of job. She just watches TV. And he has this thing common with hamidm, of having a glass of scotch whiskey by his side while cooking.

Re: # 137

tahmed,

it is people like you give men a bad name !

hamidm: real men dont cook either. they stuff themselves over lunch, end lunch with a burp of thanks to the Lord for providing a woman to cook and do laundry, and then they pop off at 45 due to grease-clogged arteries.

sattar mian,

``that here are certain things men are inherently designed for and certain things women are inherently better at.``........ i hate to argue with you, we being good friends and all that, but i must disagree with you on this one ............. i love to cook (really!) and mrs hamidm hates it ......... i get really turned on by making sauces and pastas, the aroma of garlic and the sizzle of olive oil in the pan !........ of course, i always have a glass of wine while i cook and once in a while, when the mrs is not watching or i have had one too many, i throw a little wine into the sauce - may the good lord forgive me .......

............. but you are partially right - real men do not fold laundry

Re: # 133

zj,

..... sigh ...... you win ......... and thanks for remiding me that abu knows diddly - my original premise, if you remember ............ but according to my older one, a walking encyclopedia of music, pink floyd was not just another band (and no, i did not force her to listen to the wall and neither did i force my younger one to memorize beatles lyrics !)

Zahra (#122):

… and sensible parents are those who combine all that you mentioned … the “worst”, the “weird”, and the “best” … as needed. Life is too complicated to be reduced down to a few lines in a bullet-format. Any given strategy may work or fail, depending upon circumstances and how it is carried out.

[… and why knock floyd??? Those guys and neil young achieved what was equivalent of the berlin wall coming down … ]

scout,

I am afraid the program ain’t going nowhere...

This whole women’s lib riff-raff has gotten out of hand … and is now the monster it was supposed to fight. It has become all too fashionable to almost blindly argue in favor of one viewpoint versus the other. Heck, I am all for men doing the laundry and women joining the work force … as needed (I know, it is this “as needed” part that will get me in trouble with you, zahra, and samina …but that’s how I feel …). In my view it is somewhat critical to realize, and to appreciate, that here are certain things men are inherently designed for and certain things women are inherently better at. That’s just the way nature works and hence this is how human instincts have evolved over billions of years. And if someone thinks that a few decades of technology can wipeout these deep-rooted instincts without having far-reaching repercussions … he will be eventually surprised.

… yes, the program is currently heading one way … but will soon turn around the head back the other way. I am either a few hundred years behind times, or that much ahead of it … depending upon how you look at it …

Hamidm:

I faced similar disappointment when you quoted Gibran without giving it a second thought. What were you thinking? Who were you trying to comfort? Yourself, I guess. You should have quoted Gibran if you truly practiced and believed in what he said in those 10-12 lines. Otherwise, you are in conflict with yourself.

I ain`t a floyd fan. If this is what he sang and you loved then I am glad that I stayed away from wasting my time on his lyrics. As an enlightened (hopefully) father, I recommend that you listen to ``Land Slide``.

I guess we are even now.

Re: # 131

zahraj,

..... i am really really disappointed !.......... even my 12 year old daughter knows pink floyd ! ............ the original ``dust in the wind`` was done by kansas about 20 years ago ............... this is terrible, but it is not your fault - i blame dr spock ! .........

Hamidm:

This seems to be a bastardized version of an old song, ``Dust in the Wind``. A pathetic effort!

zahraj,

...... since you are offended by gibran, let me quote aother scholar who, i think, you will agree with :

We don`t need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it`s just another brick in the wall.
All in all you`re just another brick in the wall.

........ i left off the following line since it might offend you:

``If you don`t eat yer meat, you can`t have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don`t eat yer meat?``

Re: # 124
If you dont like Punjabi curses, perhaps you would like to go back to where you came from? I will pay towards your journey back home.

scout,

.....if it is any consolation, i do most of the cooking in our household, mrs hamidm does the take-out ting .......... yesterday i made koftas and they were delicious !............ hope this restores your faith in men :(

p.s i don`t fold laundry

Re: # 123

malikj,

.......... it does`t matter what you do - in the end, kids will surprise you ......... the only thing you should want is for them to be happy ......... and that is really quite easy to do ........

.........the worst thing you can do is make up all kinds of silly rules and then get all upset when they sneak behind your back or lie to you ........... most desi parents are awfully naive because they think that they can push their ``values`` on their kids simply by dragging them to the mosque and feeding them samosas ............ their peers and the world around them has a much stronger influence ............

............just because a kid is polite and well behaved , prays five times a day, is an honor student and has never been seen with a member of the opposite sex does not mean a thing ............ i know many parents who have been surprised ...........

................ personally, i think we have done okay with our kids - they seem to be very happy even though we make them eat vegetables and yell at them for getting a b .......... they have never been ``grounded`` or had to observe a ``curfew`` or do ``chores`` or been reprimanded for being a bleeding heart liberal and abusing the president ........... but i am still prepared for anything ......... people are strange beings - you find out the gory details of their private lives only after they are dead ...........

The child is the father of the man. William Wordsworth.

Or, as he explained:

My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So be it when I shall grow old,
Or let me die!
The Child is father of the Man;

Re: # 121

when women work, men bring good quality take out food home.... get with the program buddy.

Re: # 119


you consider punjabi curses to be `heritage`

most of them are maa/bahen galis and if that`s heritage, take it back to sialkot and bury it.

Hamidm,

Yes, you are right. I have no right to disagree with what you are doing to your children, because what I profess is to practice our liberty to mould them as we see fit. That is exactly what you have done and are still doing, you just want to idealize it as if you are doing one true thing, that is, not affecting them. I can only disagree on how you see things.

I think what I think because it seems to me that kids, when they grow up would have a human side as well, and having a strong sense of belonging is good for human side of us. I know that to survive better, they must be damn good at the modren mumble jumble, but that is only one side of the coin. You seem to discredit any such thing.

While you remain busy in not losing in any oppertunity of apparent advantage, there will be crazy poeple like me who will wonder, why?

Jahanzeb

The worst parents are those:
- who impose their understanding of life on their children.
- who want their children to be like them.
- who ``sabotage`` their children`s career by playing emotional games/dramas
- who read Gibran to satisfy their ego and impress the rest of the world of their knowledge of The Prophet.

The weird parents are those:
- who ``do not allow`` their children to grow and be on their own
- who ``keep on protecting`` their kids and do not let them experience life
- who ``force`` their child to marry someone they think is appropriate vs. letting the child make the decision

The best parents are those:
- who listen, discuss, communicate and argue with their children. Provide their 2 cents but let their children have the last word in life, romance, love, war, career and everything else.
- who respect their children`s identity and their decisions
- who are supportive
- who act upon Gibran`s verses besides reading the mumbo jumbo.

… and while you are trying to figure out what to teach your kids … don’t forget to learn from them a thing or two.

People with the best (unsolicited) advice on raising kids are usually those who don’t have any of their own. Advice is a bit like an std …

tahmed (#108),

… don’t mean to burst your bubble … but are you telling us that your kids never lied to you … or did anything forbidden behind your back? You may be in for a surprise ... since you don`t know what you know not. Sahib, incessant lectures on quran and civiliy can only do so much ... don`t kid yourself ...


Salim Sahib (#17),

… what female khalifas are you talking about??? Why not go one step further and ask … how come all prophets mentioned in quran were men? Apparently god himself discriminates … If so, then why blame mortal men?

… and I cannot help but wonder … if women start working … who the hell will do the cooking? Did anyone think about this ... ?

Re: #107 #106 #105, #104 Dad knows MORE than diddly

An interesting debate on ABCD vs. FOB and relevance of religious customs and values in modern life!

Pardesis who follow religious customs tend to over-emphasize their importance and obsess with the virtues, whilst those who do not, summarily reject those religious customs as having little significance in today`s world!

The important thing to remember is that religious customs and traditions are NOT in themselves an End, but that they are the Means to achieve an End. Praying regularly does not automatically equate to being a good Hindu, Christian or Muslim, but it MIGHT teach one to be humble (not arrogant), considerate (not selfish) and kind (not malevolent). Therefore, praying in itself is not an End or sufficient to make the person a worthy human being, but it might create the spirit which leads to becoming a humble, considerate and kind person.

Similarly, eating halal food is in itself not a virtue/value, but it teaches self-restraint and ability to say NO (isn`t this important for freshman/woman living away from home and exposed to an environment where everything-goes?). Again, I emphasize that eating halal food does not automatically qualify for a stairway to heaven or guarantee steadfast character, but it is more likely that such a (wo)man is able to make the difficult decision of following the correct path (e.g. of honesty) when faced with a choice!

This is where parents make a mistake and try to instil religious customs just to portray themselves as righteous hindus and muslims, instead of explaining the core moral values that these customs are trying to instil.

We cannot force anything on the children (case in point being the family whose children ate halal in front of their parents and non-halal in their absence). All we can do is to explain the reasoning and logic of why something is being expected of them and hope that they have the wisdom to understand and the courage to make the right choice; for they say ``true insight comes from within``!

But, maybe am naïve to think that reason and logic would fly in front of an over-confident teenager, but I know for sure that ``Dad, with his years of experience knows MORE than diddly``

Re: # 118

Hamid Sahib… my experience is a bit different. My wife is a 3rd generation Greek American, and fluent in Greek (she seems to think she is not). My boys know every Punjabi curse word, are conversational in Greek and get by with their English as well. Teaching your kids their heritage (of which language is a major part) is important. I am making a conscious effort to teach my kids to read and write in Urdu instead of sending them to our local mosque to get brainwashed.

I agree with Azmat about his basic premise about passing on one’s values to one’s kids. However he is taking it a bit too seriously. In time to come, it may not be important for Azmat to have passed on his traditions on to his kids, but they will certainly feel cheated in the absence of it.

malikj,

``I would hate a son or a daughter who would respond to me my urdu questions in english.``

why ?....... my father spoke potohari (a rather obscene version of punjabi) and my mother spoke pushto (even though her father spoke persian), but we grew up speaking urdu and never saw anything wrong with it ............. and now, praise be to al-lah and the white man, the wife and i mostly speak in english to our kids and everyone is communicating just fine ........both of them can speak urdu when they have to, but they still think in english and sometimes the translation (or transliteration) comes out rather funny ............ look, most of us cannot carry on a serious conversation in our mother tongues without resorting to english in any case, so what is your beef ?

...... desi-americans are no different than other hyphenated americans - the ``mother`` tongue lasts only one generation, and that is the way it should be ........... there is nothing sacred about a language ........ it is all a bunch of hooey designed to keep third world poets and publishers in business .............

...... and then there are those that think we should all be speaking arabic !

``Just let the little girl be a little girl. Let her tear newspapers. Get fascinated by the ants and the cat. Let her demolish small towers of blocks. Let her pluck flowers and mess up her clothes.``-NHK 78

:)

Azmat:

Sorry, I haven`t been following this thread, so the point may have been made before.

What you want to teach your daughter also depends upon whether you want her or YOU to be happy. The two are not necessarily the same thing. Your daughter may be quite happy if she marries or finds a Hindu, an Afro-American or a lesbian partner, but it would probably make you or your wife miserable.

Kulharee #111: `In my village it was acceptable to date a Khoti, but never a Majh.` reminds of a joke.

`` Sahib, sahib! men are getting restless and want a pass to go to the bazaar`` Jamedar requested the captain.
``No Jamedar, Afridi log abhi shoot karata hai. Not tonight`` Happened two or three nights in a row. Finally the sahib relented.
``Ok, use the company camel``
Next morning Captain enquired ` How was the trip to the bazaar?`
``WE did not go to the town Captain``, jamedar said.
`` Why not? I thought your men were getting desperate``
``True, We did what uou told us and a stepladder``.

Zahra J,

There is no such thing as `children`s own beliefs`. Its a reaction to a combination of ideas floating here and there, in the contemporary society, parents, local tradition, personal incidents.... No human mind is capable of knowing what is outside of its capability and no belief is convincing enough to be the ideal. I think a rigorous proof is not needed.

Hamidm,

Seems like you purposefully ignored responding to most of the stuff.

While being a brown gora (aka ABCD) is not a bad idea for our future generations, it sounds so ordinary, so impure and so purposless ! And then, we have this tendency to see our next generation as the projection(forward, of course) of our own self. I would hate a son or a daughter who would respond to me my urdu questions in english.

Re: # 111

kulharee mian,

......... i think you misunderstood me ...... my comment did not have anything to do with inter species sex - i simply meant that if my father had listened to his father and had stayed in the village instead of joining the army, i would have been herding livestock ............ but if beastiality is your thing, knock yourself out !

Re: # 106
Hamidm Sahib:

ABCD v FOB
This is another story altogether. I have two ABCD daughters (personally, I think they enjoy being confused), and a FOB niece who thinks only Bangalore is the best.

All of them that I do not know India, because I left a long time ago. Most interesting is the envy in each of them. My daughters think my niece had such a great growing up with all her cousins and aunts. My niece thinks my daughters grew up in the blended environment. And the worst of all my friend from Connecticut and I think that we didn`t know how to bring up our kids, our sisters and sister-in-laws in India did a better job in growing up our nieces and nephews.

Anil

Re: # 110

Hamidm2 Sahib… you were a Majh Choud (Buffalo lover)? What village was that? In my village it was acceptable to date a Khoti, but never a Majh.

I am in total agreement with your #106.

Regards.

Re: # 109

zahra,

`` Also, avoid unnecessary humor. That can be very irritating to the youth.``......... good point, but bad taste is in the genes - the other day my younger daughter asked me if i could teach her how to burp on demand ........ i think she is looking for new ways to irritate her mother !

....... i agree about driving - my daughter has been driving to school since she got her permit ......... and she hasn`t had a curfew since she was a senior in high school - if you are going to do something it doesn`t matter what time of the day or night it is ............ i don`t know about gibran, but my father once told me, ``if i had listened to your grandfather, you would be running around bare footed chasing a water buffalo`` ......... the next generation, in order to be better, has to be different............. and they are always better ....

Re: # 94

Hamidm:

I associate driving with taking control of your life. The earlier you start taking that step the better it is.

Gibran`s philosophy of life cannot be applied towards all South Asian parents. There are only select ones who can even think and act on those lines. Don`t quote Gibran unless you can really do what he has recommended in his message. What`s the sense of appreciating poetry for the heck of it? Where the hell is practicality?

The rest of your concerns are just fatherly concerns. The best parents are those who let their kids evolve and lead their life based on their own beliefs. Again, the latter is not every parents` cup of tea. Just keep on being supportive to your daughters. Also, avoid unnecessary humor. That can be very irritating to the youth.

hamidm #106 actually the only ones confused are those who confuse values with rituals and religious customs. Thus, for example: eating halal meat is a religious custom, not a value. On the other hand, honesty is a value and not a religious custom.

Case in point: We had a family from Pakistan last year where husband wife and children came to the US for 6 months. When visiting us, the wife made a big deal about how her children never ate at outside restaurants where the meal served is not halal. The children sat piously nodding their heads. Later, i was informed by my offspring that they had taken these children out to see the town earlier that day, and those pious Pakistan Born Unconfused Desis had asked if they could stop by at a Popeyes where they happily stuffed themselves with ``haram`` fried chicken. Thus: they were taught religious customs (that is, to make a big deal about ``halal`` food), but were not taught values (honesty).

hamidm #106 actually the only ones confused are those who confuse values with rituals and religious customs. Thus: eating halal meat is a religious custom, not a value. On the other hand, honesty is a value and not a religious custom.

Example:

We had a family from Pakistan last year where husband wife and children came to the US for 6 months. When visiting us, the wife made a big deal about how her children never ate at outside restaurants where the meal served is not halal. The children sat piously nodding their heads. Later, i was informed by my offspring that they had taken these children out to see the town earlier that day, and those kids who had been piously nodding their heads had asked if they could stop by at a Popeyes where they happily stuffed themselves with all the ``haram`` fried chicken they could. Thus: they were taught religious customs (that is, to make a big deal about ``halal`` food), but were not taught values (honesty).

malikj,

i hate to inform you that there is no such thing as an ``abcd``........ according to my daughter, it is a term coined by insecure fobs who feel intimidated by secure desi americans who are quite at ease with themselves ........... there is nothing confused about a kid who prefers baseball over cricket, or macaroni and cheese over nihari or thinks gays have a right to be legally married just like fornicating hetrosexuals ..................... we should be thankful to our kids for putting up with our desi idiosycracies - idiotic things we try to pass of as ``values`` .......

........a large number of desi kids are forced to lie and cheat and sneak behind their parents back because they are expectd to live up to these alien ``values`` without any discussion ......... sooner or later it is the the parents who end up ``confused`` and disappointed ........... the kids do just fine

Indeed the writer of the article is confused about many things.

hamidm,

Refering to your true prophet`s tenents, I don`t think this idealism could work.

The mere fact that your kids were born to you and your wife (not to somebody else) suggests that you are influencing their lives a lot.

If you decide to take a vacation each year and fly to a place in africa where people are dying of hunger, I can bet you will be influencing the `tomorrow` and that your kids will respond to the stimulus one way or the other in their lives to come.

Do you think that ntsyed or malik99 lack some hamidm genes from their forefathers that they are the way they are? Or their kinds are cursed by some black magic?

When Mrs. hamidm says that the kids should fast and you look at your daughter with `that look`, do you think it means nothing?

Isn`t it correct that we are the ones with the power to suggest where the tomorrow will go?

If you say that you let this stuff happen in most natural way, i.e. only behave as we do according to our idealogy, isn`t it still an arbitrary choice? What if the chemicals in your brain had chosen the way of the other many muslims in north america? Then do you doubt that you would have raised some confused ABCDs (if I remain kind enough to accept that this is not the case now)?

scout,

``i`ve seen countless pakistani american families bribing their children to follow rituals and it is the stupidest and most backward thing ever..... ``

........ the bribe remark was used for dramatic effect to illustrate the comparitive value (or lack of worth) of religious rituals ...... in any case, these kids cannot be bribed to do anything since they already have everything a kid can possibly want or need ............

.......... but if you are talking about religious rituals being ``stupid and backwards``, i do agree ........ however mrs hamidm disagrees and who am i to disagree with her! ......... but so far we seem to be doing fine with and without rituals - i have not caught the kids praying yet, but once in a while they do get caught up in this fasting business .........but, alhamdolliah, it is only a couple of days a year and i think it has something to do with all those iftar parties that we go to ........ and then, of course, there is eid which even i celebrate with great fervor - my kaleejee gurday are appreciated by true believers and not so true believers alike ........... there is nothing wrong with being a cultural muslim as long as it doesn`t become a bad habit for the rest of the year ............ heck i even get caught up in the christmas spirit - specially with the egg nog and the fat man in a red suit ...................

.......... this year, as usual, i am giving up tonic for ramzan - only martinis for thirty (or twenty nine) days ............

hear hear!

why is everyone making such a fuss over this article?
doesn`t every new parent have aspirations and hopes for their kids?
of course it may all go down the drain as they grow up, but do you blame the guy?


as far as ramzaan and rozay and ipods are concerned, if faith is to be taught at all... parents should be teaching their children to have faith with sincerity, not to have faith only because they could earn an ipod in the end.....

i`ve seen countless pakistani american families bribing their children to follow rituals and it is the stupidest and most backward thing ever..... and ultimately it backfires.

if kids don`t want to pray and otherwise are good kids... leave them alone

Re: # 82

hey shankar bhai, whatch u talkin about?

tahmed:

yes, credit cards do come in handy in an emergency. credit cards also are an ache in more than one place to a parent when they DO trust their children with them, and their children take advantage of that trust. i was joking when i said that to hamid, by the way.

another insight on daughters was provided by my dentist many years ago: ``At 17 they think they are invincible``, he said while drilling my gums with one of his favorite instruments of torture (an injection needle).

His problem was that his daughter had picked up smoking, and as a recently reformed smoker he figured maybe I could convince his daughter to give up too. Which I tried after he brought her in for a tahmed sermon, but didnt work. She just nodded her head patientely, and said she knew all this anyway. So, not just do daddy`s no bo-diddly, so do all others of their generation.

in #97 the ``how not to live within their means`` should have been ``how to live within their means``.

ana: ``i`m not talking about credit cards. . . don`t give her those!!!`` Why not?? Those come in handy in an emergency. and it is a good training for them on how not to live within their means without building up debt - particularly important in a society like the US where credit is so easily available to all.

also, how else are you going to teach them responsibility if you cant even trust them with credit cards (let alone far more important things, like behaving themselves when not under the watchful eye of the parent, as is bound to happen)??

Re: # 95

ana,

....... actually, drivng and grades are the only two things i worry about - mrs hamidm worries about everything else ......... the other day i heard them talking on the phone getting all upset over victoria`s secret running out of some line of pink stuff and then she said ``beta, you should at least try to fast on the weekends``

abu hamid,

arre, do you trust your daughter? do you have confidence in her?

then why you worry?

i still get the business from my mother. . . . you should go to church, you should do this, why are you doing that. some parents ki pareshaani khair kabhi aasmaanoN se dur tau jaati nahiN, but really now. . . . i think you`re a good abu for being worried, but give your daughter some credit as well (and i`m not talking about credit cards. . . don`t give her those!!!)

zahraj,

``As a daughter, I would tell you that you should NEVER EVER question or cross examine your daughter`s reasoning. ``

......... but sometimes you have to ..... and i am not talking about the haircuts or why she thinks god does not exist - both of those are rather unimportant nits and i couldn`t care less, one way or the other ........... but there are some things that, as a parent, you must question .........

........ for example, why does a freshman need to take her car to college when everything is within walking distance (even the boys are across the hall!)......... ``because the hair salon is five miles away and the cheesecake factory is at least ten miles away and besides, i have been driving to school since i was sixteen and i am such a good driver ....... okay what is your reason, king abu?``...............``one and only one reason - i don`t want to worry about you driving when you are so far away ......... also i don`t know any of your new friends and i know that most people go to college to drink - a diploma is quite incidental ``............... ``you are getting old - such a worry wart !.......... can i take it next year when i am nineteen and a lot more responsible ?``.......... ``if you make all a`s and don`t bring home a horrible hindoo boyfriend``...........``what about keshav?``...........``he is not a hindoo, he is a punjabi and eats meat``.......``you are such a racist - all desis are racists and bigots`` ......... and then we continued to talk about more important things like i-pods and gay marriage ..............

.......... last month, she took the car even though she had one b each semester and i shelled out the 600 for parking without a whimper ........ now i am worried silly ........ a car load of kids hundreds of miles away from home is a scary thought specially, when i helped her move last month, i saw empty bottles of vodka and beer cans in every trash can .......... but, maybe i am just a worry wart because abu knows diddly .............

Azmat:

1. [The purpose of education is to pass on the knowledge and wisdom from the past into the future generations.]

This is the most offensive statement in this write-up. Past generations lived their life with their own view. Future generation should be able to entertain the same right and privilege.

2. All muslim women do NOT want to emulate Mother Teresa. Why even have ridiculous expectations? Are all men as capable as Rudy G or Jack Welch and/or Robin Sharma? It is simply unrealistic to even nurture high expectations from majority of the average muslim men.

3. Feminists should proceed with whatever is important to them. They are quite capable of pursuing what`s close to their heart (in many cases, it`s not a man). Don`t lose sleep on someone else`s confidence, aspiration and success. You are wasting your energies and your life. Why not do something good for yourself ? i.e. make yourself more effective and productive.

4. As a daughter, I would tell you that you should NEVER EVER question or cross examine your daughter`s reasoning. That`s the best thing a father can do for his daughter. Be a good listener. If she is prudent (hopefully she has that element in her genes besides good looks) then she will come back to you to seek your advice on any matter important to her. You are raising an individual. Don`t forget that. (Hamidm, please pay attention.)

5. The world has a strong influence on the young and old and new borns. The concept of world is not only people any more, it includes technology and environments. Be open to that.

6. I do not think that you meant to put so much emphasis on religion but ended up sharing your concerns. If you were that open minded then why did you marry a religious woman ? It seems that you have concerns on what your wife may teach your daughter? Had you married an atheist woman, she would have induced her values or whatever was important to her as an individual. You could not have any control on that. You have only control on yourself regarding what you want to share with your daughter. You cannot even tell your mother or grandmother to teach her X vs. Y. Be realistic.

7. Last but not least, teach your daugher to throw tantrums before her mother/father decides to take her to the local mosque/synagogue/church. Children should not enter a place of religious learning/practice till they are samjhdaar and know when to stay quiet and when to cry. You will do a big favor to the (wo)mankind.

1. [The purpose of education is to pass on the knowledge and wisdom from the past into the future generations.]

This is the most offensive statement in this write-up. Past generations lived their life with their own view. Future generation should be able to entertain the same right and privilege.

2. All muslim women do NOT want to emulate Mother Teresa. Why even have ridiculous expectations? Are all men as capable as Rudy G or Jack Welch and/or Robin Sharma? It is simply unrealistic to even nurture high expectations from majority of the average muslim men.

3. Feminists should proceed with whatever is important to them. They are quite capable of pursuing what`s close to their heart (in many cases, it`s not a man). Don`t lose sleep on someone else`s confidence, aspiration and success. You are wasting your energies and your life. Why not do something good for yourself ? i.e. make yourself more effective and productive.

4. As a daughter, I would tell you that you should NEVER EVER question or cross examine your daughter`s reasoning. That`s the best thing a father can do for his daughter. Be a good listener. If she is prudent (hopefully she has that element in her genes besides good looks) then she will come back to you to seek your advice on any matter important to her. You are raising an individual. Don`t forget that. (Hamidm, please pay attention.)

5. The world has a strong influence on the young and old and new borns. The concept of world is not only people any more, it includes technology and environments. Be open to that.

6. I do not think that you meant to put so much emphasis on religion but ended up sharing your concerns. If you were that open minded then why did you marry a religious woman ? It seems that you have concerns on what your wife may teach your daughter? Had you married an atheist woman, she would have induced her values or whatever was important to her as an individual. You could not have any control on that. You have only control on yourself regarding what you want to share with your daughter. You cannot even tell your mother or grandmother to teach her X vs. Y. Be realistic.

7. Last but not least, teach your daugher to throw tantrums before her mother/father decides to take her to the local mosque/synagogue/church. Children should not enter a place of religious learning/practice till they are samjhdaar and know when to stay quiet and when to cry. You will do a big favor to the (wo)mankind.

Disclaimer: the baby is cute.

Dear author, you are one screwed-up dude! You park your ass in the west and lecture well-intentioned individuals “back home” that they should work “within the system”!

[Most importantly, I will give her critical thinking skills, teach her to meditate, some yoga and a healthy self-expression. She will get to exercise the four domains, intellectual, spiritual, emotional and physical.]
Just LEAVE HER ALONE, will you! What is she – your very own God-given guinea pig?!

[They do not have the judgment to recognize that it is not Islam that needs to be reformed.]
So which one is it – abandon hope all who enter here or rats deserting the sinking ship?

Re#45 by Mantolives
[Ooops now I get it... ]
Author, your article must have SOME redeeming values – even Manto gets it!

#Shankar (various posts)
The shrink slithers in – and nobody tells me! Alas, I truly have no friends left on this site!

Re: # 85
hamid,

ROTFL

{{``abu knows diddly``}}

My 19yr old...going on 50...princess....is also giving me grey hairs.....to the point where I have to put my foot down ....several times a day.... & say ...``you may be the Princess of this house....but I``M the EMPEROR!!``....she shakes her head & says ``dad...for a shrink you know absolutely nuttin` about teenagers!``

Little girls are cute & cuddly when they are little....they are daddy`s little girls.

We desi fathers tend to be a little overprotective of our daughters...probably cos we knew how we were when we were teenagers...& I doubt that the ``moral`` values & endocrine glands of teenage ``hunks`` these days have changed for the better....

But never fear....things are not as they seem ``back home`` too...

I remember Zeemax (where the hell is he?...anyways)...who started a rock group in Lahore saying his ``hijab clad`` groupies would tear off their hijabs & burkhas much faster than the dolls with jeans....& that was more than 25 yrs ago!

then we grow older....& we see our fragile, innocent princesses turning into young women....& every teenage boy looks like Osama Bin Laden to us....

at that point, either we turn into religion (even agnostics like me) find myself using the words... hai Allah/ Shankar Bhagwan muje bachao!...when Friday night comes around...& the jawan beti is putting lipstick & makeup on ....ostensibly to hang out at the mall with her friends...& then gives me her trade mark ``sigh & eye-roll`` when I ask ``OK how many BOYS among your friends?``.....

or buy a goddamned shotgun!

I chuckled when I saw the picture of the author holding his sweet, innocent child in his bosom...i hate to pour cold water on his tranquil parade...that sweet child is going to grow up into a beautiful lady one day.....THATS when you really start hoping there is a God to protect her.....

...... but even though you don`t know diddly, sometimes they make you think that what little you know does matter ........ like, (see i do know something !)........ well like fifteen minutes ago when mother and daughter like took off on yet another shopping expedition, my daughter, with a look of pained concern on her face, asked, `` you really don`t like my hair? ..... you want me to get it fixed?``.......... ``oh no, i love it!....... you are the cutest sophomore in the world``...........``cuter than the cutest and the most badtameez eight grader in the world ?``......... hair style seems to be a lot more important for sophomores, than matters of belief, disbelief and unbelief ............ god knows what they are thinking, but they always win and leave you wondering if you know anything ............

..... and just to show that other, wiser, people argee with the fact that ``abu knows diddly``, let me quote a hadith of the one true prophet:


Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life`s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

# 86: Thank you Pardesi sahib for clarifying. I was thinking the same thing Now Hamidm2 is a clear case of misplaced password, the one Hamidm had in his mind around last month and can not now remember where he put it.

# 77: Dulla sahib, I apologise for mentioning your post on looks. I know you were just ribbing azmat.

#80 pardesi2

Amazing! In addition to our chowk handles, our views on daughters are also very close :).

Welcome aboard.

bo knows diddly !

.......... i have been reading all this with some amusement - a well meaning, but rather ignorant discussion among people who, like me, obviously don`t know what they are talking about ......... and i have actually tried to raise two daughters !

......... ``abu, you don`t know anything !``, that`s what my twelve year old said yesterday as she categorically told me that she was not going to take her jacket to girl scout camp - it seems that it is against eighth grade fashion doctrine to wear a jacket in october ......... ``but it is cold up north and you will freeze your back as you sit around the bonfire``......... ``no! i am not a geek and i will have my moosejaw sweatshirt on and three layers``.......... it seems that moosejaw and layering is in with the eighth grade this year - as she said, ``abu knows diddly``

........and then my older one comes home for the weekend and declares she is an atheist !....... personally, i was more concerned about the ``indie`` haircut which i don`t understand .......... i don`t understand atheism either, but it seems to be a lot less important - a purple strand of hair that keeps flopping into your eyes is a lot more immediate and urgent problem, specially when when you don`t understand the music that generates the haute coiffure......... i understand betrand russel, but i have no idea what the kings of leon are saying .........like they say, ``abu knows diddly`` .........

......... but with ramzan around the corner, mrs hamidm is getting into her annual religious frenzy and is quite concerned is about this lack of faith ......... for some unknown reason she holds me responsible for this disrespect for organized religion in our household even though i ``fasted`` on jumatul wida last year and my younger daughter has promised to fast on the weekends if she can replace her mini with the nano i-pod .........god works in wonderous ways !........... but to appease the mother i said, ``beta, you can`t be an atheist until you understand what it is all about - one sophomore class in comparative religion doesn`t qualify you as an atheist``...........i was trying to be helpful, but mrs hamidm gave me that look - i get that look from all three of them .......why? ........ because, ``abu knows diddly`` ........

........... so azmat mian, you are not going to teach your daughter anything because, as rummy said, ``even though you know what you know, and you may know what you don`t know, but you don`t know what you don`t know``.......... but, even more importantly, ``abu knows diddly`` ...........................

congrats.. but you dont need to make such complicated plans..

the environments that your girl has opportunities to experience are more important than what you tell her. For example if you feel that she should be exposed to other cultures and religions, you should set an example.. its that simple. How you behave at home, interact with your wife and child matters more than what you say to her on these matters. Her involvment in sports and other activities will count for more. Will she able to have friends from other backgrounds?

I havent seen hamidm on this thread.. he can certainly give his 2 bits

I agree with Pardesi that daughters are great.. Fathers can form deep bonds with daughters. It is their choice. Treat them like individuals with a mind and spirit of their own and with affection; you will reap the rewards for as long as you live.

Re: # 71

scouty,

Hai Allah....you STILL have a crush on that bihari-butthead?

Re: # 71

scouty,

Hai Allah....you STILL have a crush on that bihari-butthead?

Re: # 78

nhk-ji,

That is, by far, the wisest post I have read on this thread..

Azmat - Your article leaves much to be desired, but fellow chowkers have already performed a postmortem and so it is needless to elaborate. Instead I will congratulate you on having a daughter!

Most people are too thick-headed to realise what a BLESSING daughters are. Their love for the parents is more deep-rooted and intense than the sons. They are more sensitive, kind and considerate to their parents when they are old as compared to the sons who despite receiving all the attention and resources are more likely to turn their backs to the parents. One should not create stereotypes, but I`ve witnessed plenty of examples to justify this observation.

Of cource, the unknown factor is how this new generation grows up to become, given that they face the dilemma of somewhat contradictory signals from their parents/culture on side and their surroundings and media on the other. However as they say ceterus paribus (all things equal), girls are better for the parents than boys!

Azmat - Your article leaves much to be desired, but fellow chowkers have already performed a postmortem and so it is needless to elaborate. Instead I will congratulate you on having a daughter!

Most people are too thick-headed to realise what a BLESSING daughters are. Their love for the parents is more deep-rooted and intense than the sons. They are more sensitive, kind and considerate to their parents when they are old as compared to the sons who despite receiving all the attention and resources are more likely to turn their backs to the parents. One should not create stereotypes, but I`ve witnessed plenty of examples to justify this observation.

Of cource, the unknown factor is how this new generation grows up to become, given that they face the dilemma of somewhat contradictory signals from their parents/culture on side and their surroundings and media on the other. However as they say ceterus paribus (all things equal), girls are better for the parents than boys!

Azmat

Do not get disheartened by the comments. There are million others who harbour same thoughts. And the Chowkies are as brutally upfront with their views as yopu have expressed here. But a re-adjustment in views is certainly required.

Just let the little girl be a little girl. Let her tear newspapers. Get fascinated by the ants and the cat. Let her demolish small towers of blocks. Let her pluck flowers and mess up her clothes.

Let her find her own faith in her own time - and at an appropriate age.

For now, just enjoy her innocence & childhood which is a fleeting phenomenon. Rest assured that you will be involved with her problems even after her marriage.

So relax and let her enjoy her childhood.

best wishes

nhk

Azmat, I apologize for jumping the gun on you regarding the looks.

The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.

Henry Ward Beecher

Re: # 74

Hello All, thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. The level of your generosity is clearly evident by your posts. I am sure Aziz Mian is rolling in his grave LHAO. He is my favorite Qawal. I wont take seriously any negative comments, I know it is not personal. My muslim brothers and sisters are a little harsh on me. Perhaps it is because I am asking a difficult rhetorical question. I want to know what it is to be a good muslim? My answer is that it has nothing to do with how many times you pray or how much you fast or give zakat. Or how many times you have gone to Haj. Or even if you read or memorize and understand the Quran. These are all selfish rituals that you perform for your own salvation. It has nothing to do with how kind you are towards your fellow human beings. What you contribute to your community, either in thought or deed. All the rituals aside, what is important are your relationships. I think that God will send straight to hell all the muslims who prayed five times a day fasted for thirty days and performed Haj and gave Zakat, if in their relationships with other human beings they were not generous and kind. Furthermore, if you are incapable of understanding this idea, that is serious and very sad.
What I have noticed from your responses thus far and I am generalizing; this idea is easier to accept for Sikhs or Hindus or Christians or any other religion. And Muslims want to stick to ``read the Quran`` do your duty to god, go and pray, and yes stick to the rituals of Namaz and Roza because if you take that away what else will they have left?

Azmat Hussain

Yawn,....that was one boring read. I think you need to go and help your wife change baby`s stinky diaper instead of sitting infront of the computer and writing this boring article....jiska na koi sir hai na pair. I have two little monkeys of my own and i just hope that one day they grow up to be humans.

Re: # 72 raw

good point.....

The answer to the question ``What will I teach my daughter?`` is -

Just let her be..... she will be just fine... Force-feeding ``cultural`` bullsh!t may actually back-fure....

Hafiz Hussain Sahib : i like the candor and sincerity in your writing i.e., if the act of writing could be deemed an exercise in sincerity.

On Muslim Feminists(an oxymoron dont you think?): i think we all should wish them goodluck in their negotiations pertaining to certain unsavory facts about Islam.

I personally think assigning kids religous identities and forcefeeding them silly dogmas is a cruelty. Just like a kid is not supposed to be a Republican, Democrat or Libertarian Kid, they shouldnt be given religous tags either until they growup and decide for themselves.

On a lighter note, woody allen said something like when a woman have a baby and decides to become a jew again, she doesnt become your average jew she becomes jewish with a vengeance. :-) source: Deconstructing Harry.



oh and Congrats on having a baby!
cheers.

Re: # 65


and you look like rahim shah chichora

Shankar # 57: `` I know..we hindus arent any better...but Jesus H Christ...I can say Lord Krishna Biblically knew every dudhwalli in Dwarka & not fear for my life....& if any goddamned Pujari has the balls to say....``hey Krishna Bhagwan..tum ko paap lagega``....I have the liberty to flip him..``

LOL...

Bible had not been written yet Shankar and Jesus H was not even a twinkling in his dad`s eye when Krishan Ji was sowing his wild oats. It is not a pleasant task but anyhow..
`` Shankar Papi, tum ko pap lag chuka hai. Dakshina de, tau koi upai bataun..``

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Chowk Staff - Why hasn`t Saminasha been banned permanently?

This is what she posted in her own ``WTF`` thread:


#97 by Saminasha on September 30, 2005 9:38am PT
Stuka,

Fuck you. Seriously. Make all your references than act like it was out of innocence

A fine example of feminine conversation. Is this how one interacts politely? People have been banned for far less.

#97 by Saminasha on September 30, 2005 9:38am PT
Stuka,

Fuck you. Seriously. Make all your references than act like it was out of innocence.

Azmat:

Whatever you do make this more about your daughter’s needs and less about what you think she needs. Sometimes the two can be different. More than anything she’ll need you to be there for her, no matter what.

Oh and I highly recommend you enroll her in a kickboxing class, as soon as she’s old enough. It’ll come in handy when she`s out there on her own;).

Best of luck.
miriam

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azmat hussain saheb...
any relation with aziz miyan qawwal...?

Re: # 46
nutty syed...
he is the prophet of stupidism...so be careful...vaise for a change i liked your #34...if only you stayed away from being a mullah, you could be as good as.....(fill in the blanks)...;)

To add to my earlier post. Another factor is that the host or the majority culture pulls in opposite end than the personal heritage. Sikh children go thru hell too trying to balance traditional values with the freedom of the west. But the conflict is not as brutal as amongst muslim children i.e. the esp. the disgruntled British muslim youth who are fodder for the terrorist cells.

As a father of 2 monkeys being raised in a multi-cultural household, I can tell you that everyday is a new drama. If it is not about being dragged in one direction, then it is about being dragged into the other. One to take to his band practice, the other to soccer games, One car, two parents, One Allah. If you think that I can wait for them to have their own drivers license and drive to their own god damn shyt, you are a moron.

Yaar Ji, go and make another baby instead of cooking these Khiyali Palao about what you want to mold your daughter into. My research suggests that parents (by that I mean mother) have only about 3% control over what their kids grow up to be. The remaining 60% is all about the pedigree and observing what the grownups around them do.

Enjoy your little one while you can.