Rape and Exploitation - Pakistan’s Dilemma

Re: # 144 anil
//....I also think that Musharaff is a sincere and professional soldier....//

Really? Do ``sincere and professional`` soldiers trample the constitution they have promised to protect and take over the country willy-nilly?

It`s one thing for Pakis to sing paens to this Mushy fool - but time and again I am surprised with stupidity of people from this side of the border....Actually, this is very symptomatic of why India has not been able to handle these paki pests for so long ... forever Indians are making false reading of paki establishment and the generals .... what they are and what they stand for...

Rape does not fall under the category of Hadud laws, therefore, four witnesses are not required. The standard of witnesses (i.e. number) and forensic evidence is arbitrarily chosen but cannot be used to impose Hadd punishment for zina. Under Islamic jusripudence society is allowed to arbitrarily chose the punishment for rape, which in principle should be less sever than the Hadd - which is 100 stripes for unmarried perpetrator and stonning to death for married perpetrtor. The hadd punishment can only be imposed in case of rape when two conditions are met:

1. Four adult male witneseses happen to witness the actual act of penetration.

2. The perpetrator volunatrily confesses of rape.

The loophole in Pakistani law is that:

Suppose a woman claims that a certain man has raped her. Like any other culture in the world, unfortunately because of the nature of the crime, the bulk of the burden of proof lies with the woman. But if that woman fails to prove her case and polices also fails to prove the case with circumstantial or forensic evidence, then Pakistani judges on one hand let the perpetrator go free - nothing wrong with that - but the travesty is that they charge woman with the crime of fornication. Their rationale is that that woman by accusing another man of raping her has admitted to fornication at least. This is a travesty of justice and Islamic law explicitly forbids this practice of retaliation against woman in this form. A women cannot be charged like this. But thanks to fauji dictators they have turned jsudges into fukking rodents and cockroaches on one hand and on the other hand they don`t let any independent legislation to take palce in legislative so that these anomolies/travesties of justice can be straightened out in the law because legislative process threatens their petty fiefdoms.

Re: # 156
what about you ``intelligent design`` loving scout? apart from these four lines......

the only person who contributed anything worthwhile to this whole forum is bina herself and the little post at the end by mantolives.


all the rest of you are just playing the typical pakistani routine..... start condemning one person while the problem lies in the whole damn country

Romair,
``In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. ``

Don`t compare the numbers, the numbers are underreported in our countries, the real numbers are much higher and it may surprise you.

Re: # 148 and Romair (many) and others

Rape is essentially a power tool - one of enforcing your power on another and frightening the pshyte of others. This power could be political, monetary, shear physical brute force (dadagiri/gangsterism etc). Polical+monetary power=feudalism (and its variations).

the only solution is to educate the population about their rights - that is the only solution. Education about rights is different from making them literate. The fear of the powerful about literacy is true, but in reality they fear what this literacy will do in terms of ensuring that the powerless realise the rights they have in society.

you need to find a way in short-ckting this literacy => knowledge of rights and go str to rights issue. Heck we have many literate folk here on chowk, but I wonder how many you could classify as educated.

Rights is the key. The rest follows from it. Hide the rights anf you have a whole lot of psuedo-powerless people cowering before you. Knowledge of ones rights gives a sense of purpose and dignity, and boosts your self-worth many fold.

Re: # 144

Anil...

With all due respect... every word of Musharraf`s is discussed, deliberated and criticized upon by the 10 or so Private channels- and the opposition as usual has been very very vocal... so I am afraid your theory that he did this for Pakistani consumption is not true...

He just made a fool out of him internationally- thats all... he didn`t think before making the statement or before denying it...

#149 by Romair

[This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture.]

And pray tell us who allowed feudalism and feudal culture to thrive? Is it not your Army, which has ruled Pakistan for most of its wretched existence?

Behram,

The Hudood Ordinance does provide a loop hole and a judge, if Islamically inclined can choose to construe the law as such and allow the rapists go scott free... in absence of 4 witnesses.

However, in practice the Law can and should depend on other evidence like forensics etc in which case the rapists would not be charged under Hadd but under the normal secular laws which would mean jail for several counts...

-YLH

Rapes in the US (1 rape every 5 minutes- 720 rapes per day) and India are unfortunate crimes ... Rapes in Pakistan are power plays by dictators and feudals. Get a frigging life all of you.

The only issue here IS Hudood Ordinance which stops women from getting the justice they deserve.

``Changing the Hudood Ordinances, ensuring that rapes are registered as criminal offenses, guaranteeing that criminals are caught and punished, and making sure that women who report rapes and their families are safe from physical danger and intimidation``

This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture:

``Nasreen, a close aide of Mai, told Daily Times that the media needed to play a role to shape the idea of the forum. She said there was a need to fight the feudal system, which was one of the root causes of violence against women. `` http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_13-7-2005_pg7_17

How can someone support feudalism and speak out for rape victims? It doesn`t make sense to me. Isn`t this an even bigger problem. Shouldn`t we encourage the end of the feudal system. It is primarily due to this system, that no bill against honor killings ever passes through the Assembley. All the feudals vote against it, when they are the ruling party............

In my book, anyone who supports the root cause of such rapes - feudalism - as described by the victims, themselves, is an enabler of the system.........

Wow. I wasn`t expecting this sort of catfight with this article. Silly me, I somehow hoped that people would be able to debate rationally the points raised and perhaps come up with some sort of action plan or petition to sign and send to the President. But armchair warriors are just that, it seems.

Anyway, Romair, we have been having a spate of rapes in Karachi. In the poorest slums, little girls are being raped - some as young as three years old. This is happening with alarming frequency these past few months. These are city dwellers, with no ties to agriculture. Would you like to tell me how feudalism has caused these little children to be raped?

Perhaps I belong to that breed of feudals that you have never heard of - the kind that doesn`t believe in the subjugation and oppression of women. I suppose what you don`t understand frightens you - that there might actually be some of us out there who think that crimes against women are unforgivable. I actually feel that it is not the agircultural system that encourages these crimes but a horrible mix of tribalism, illiteracy, and misogyny, combined with the most chauvinistic elements of our patriarchal system, which causes these crimes to happen without any sort of punishment or accountability on ALL levels. Rape happens in the slums. It happens in the fields. It happens in streets in cities. It happens in oil fields. It happens in army barracks. In jails. In offices. Do you attribute ALL those rapes to feudalism, or only the ones in the rural areas? Could you clarify your position, please?

In my opinion, I wish we could forget about the four witneses rule. Especially in the case of people running in to see these little girls being raped, I think the offenders should be castrated and then shot upon the spot. Perhaps this is the one area where vigilanteism would actually have an effect.

The million dollar question: What are YOU going to do to try and fight this crime?

Dost-mittar #72: ``I think that he means well but he has this foot-in-the-mouth disease. He also probably still doesn`t understand what he said was wrong.

I don`t think that the man means bad. He is just clueless and insensitive to the current mode of thought on women`s issues.``

This is true. I don`t think he realizes what he said. There is nothing in his own lifestyle, nor in his policies, to indicate he supports what he said.......

Musharraf is the opposite of the average Paksitani politician. He has done a lot of good for women. Yet blows it by making stupid statements. While other politicians have done a lot to subjugate women, yet make it sound like they have done a lot.

One really has to be a politician to learn that art. One cannot be a general and learn it. Generals have a tendency to get very defensive about their countries. And then they tend to attack. My guess is that what he wanted to say was that there are, ``people`` in Pakistan who tell women that get raped and end up in Canada. The, ``they`` pointed to, ``people.`` However, what he ended up saying, or sounding like saying was a, ``they`` pointing to the women, themselves.........

Hopefully, he has learnt his lesson..........

In any case, unlike many people on this thread, I think women`s rights in Pakistan are actually going through a mini-revolution; relatively speaking. The best way to empower women is to give them seats in decision making bodies. They now have 33% seats reserved. There are more women in Pakistan`s Assemblies than in India`s or USA. In fact far more..........Musharraf originally wanted to reserve 50%.........

Education in Punjab for girls, I believe, has been made free...........

Musharraf promoted a women to the rank of Major General in the Army. Something no one ever did. And he has said, woman can become the COAS. And he personally allowed, at the request of a 17 year old, girls to become fighter pilots. And they are well on their way. Something that is unprecendented in South Asia.........

And I see far more women on stage, drama, doing hard-hitting talk-shows etc. than I ever have. The fact that all these rape cases are being discussed in public and the govt. is being challenged, is itself an indicator of that. Previously, such cases were suppressed by the local MNA and no one had the guts to challenge them.......Now the govt. is feeling pressured. An SP and DIG have been removed because of a rape. I have never heard of that happening before. In fact, I don`t ever remember the press being so aggressive on rape, before. This itself is an indication of freedom......

Musharraf just needs to not get carried away when he sees goras. This is a desi, or at least a Pakistani disease. They (we) get too excited when given importance by a gora sahib..........

In any case, as strange as it may sound on this thread, in my opinion, there are two groups that he has greatly empowered: women and religious minorities. For the first time, all their issues are being discussed out in the open, and the govt. is on the defensive.........No other govt. ever gave a hoot about them, earlier...........None of them got rid of separate electorates, none of them gave women seats in the parliament, none of them legislated against honor killings and women marrying the quran, nor against police officers raping women.......

At the same time, they were intelligent enough to make the correct noises, though. Amin Fahim, the head of PPP, has four sisters married to the Quran. However, he would never make such a stupid statement about rape......

I prefer someone, who can walk the walk and talk the talk. However, my second choice is someone who at leasts can walk the walk, if not talk the talk, on such an issue.........this is the category Musharraf is in, on these issues. The most dangerous ones are the likes of Amin Fahim and other feudals etc; they talk the talk, but do not walk the walk on issues of women empowerment.........

An interview with President Musharaf,in which he mentioned,``comparison between the incidence of rape in western countries and Pakistan. It’s happening everywhere, he said, and then added: “You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada and citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.”

I have never ever heard such a cruel statement by any person in my whole life and I am sure will never hear it again.No,human can say such a thing.I am sure,even a rapist can not say such thing.This statement makes me sick to the extent that I feel sorry fo poor Pakistanis who has such a President(head of state).

On,side note,I think Musharaf has her own daughter and wife as well.What if samething happen to them?Will he say the samething for them as well?

Mr.President you are not only wrong,but,extremely cruel and pathetic.

When ever we hear a news about RAPE in Pakistan. On interrogation, all Paki Govt. officals state,``Oh,RAPE,well this is happening everywhere in the world.More common in Western countries.`` And,by making such a stupid and cruel statement they think,their duty is over and they could easily get away with it.

Well,first of RAPE is UNDER REPORTED in Pakistan.Then,even if it is reported,is not being supported by any Govt agencies.Rather RAPISTS have a lots of support from Govt,b/c lots of RAPISTS are either Ministers,senators,army officials or they have strong connections with them.So,they easily get away with RAPE.

Pakistan is so,called Islamic nation,how can RAPE even be committed?

I am sure Pakistan has more RAPES,COMPARED to USA,b/c of ignorance and poverty.

My answer to this dumb statement is,don`t make such statement which are not only cruel,but,they are justifying and favouring RAPE.By,saying this these officials become part of rapists team.
Well,this is solely your opinion.But,I think you are also human being.So,being a member of a civil society that you are.Will you please answer only one question.If you will say (yes) to this question,then you`re not human being and if you will say (No) to my question then you are human being.
PS:-Please don`t take my question as a personal attack.In no way I am attacking you personally.Thanks

Suppose,if Musharaf`s sister/mother/daughter has been dragged in similar rape situation,will he say the same senseless statement as has been stated by President general Musharaf(who is forgetting that he also is father / son and brother??

I have always admired Musharaf ,but, on this statement I have changed my opinion about this man.Thanks for not arguing with me on this highly sensitive issue.
Musharaf with such a heartless statement has nerves to deny it ,now....tsk,tsk,ts
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read Musharaf`s response.
Mr.President
You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.

Any human being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.

Pakistanis seem to lose all sense of themselves, when they get into the limelight. Hence I am not surprised at what Musharraf said. It is the typical Pakistani disease. Anyone who gets enough attention, turns into a self-appointed defender of the nation`s, ``pride.`` Be it Hoodbhoy, Musharraf or Asma Jehangir, Hamid Gul or Qazi Hussain.........

Throw a few camera lights on, a foreign reporter and a television crew, and you will get something controversial. People love to be in the limelight, and don`t know when to stop. Everyone turns into a reformer trying to reform Pakistan. Look at the discussions on Chowk. And eventually put their foot in their mouth..........

In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. One out of every five American women, statistically, has been date-raped.....So one should not get carried away......

The unique thing about Pakistan are the type of rapes. Honor rapes, honor killings associated with rapes and marriage, panchayat-based rapes etc. are unique to a few countries. They indicate a mentality that subjugates women. And as I mentioned before that is rooted in feudalism. Not in Musharraf putting his foot in his mouth. Evern Mukhtar Mai blames feudalism for her rape. She doesn`t blame Musharraf.........A peasant women living on a feudal farm is the most vulnerable to rape. The wife of a havaldar, living on a military cantonment isn`t vulnerable to rape. Neither is the wife of maulvi living in Mansoora...........

I suppose that is a deadly combination. Leaders who put their foot in their mouth...and a feudal system that encourages rape.........

Based on that, I still have major issues with people who justify such feudal systems, which the rape -ees are blaming for their rapes. And simultaneously trying to speak out against rapes. That is a double-standard that has got to go. The author needs to decide which side she is on..........

Re: # 72

Dost-Mitter:

I also think that Musharaff is a sincere and professional soldier. He is neither a politician, nor a statesman. But he is trying to ride several horses at the same time. The spotaniety of his remark and responses is a reflection of a collective psyche and sub-conscious first reflection of the mindset of machoism in a Pakistani General and his other Lt. Generals in defensive position.

The question is can he or other Lt.. Generals who support him continue to be the leaders to lead a nation like Pakistan. They certainly have by creating confusion. I am sure, in Wasington DC, London, Israel and even in Delhi (including APHC)defense analyst and policy planners will analyze and undersand the capability of Pakistani leadership to make public fool out of themselves, first to speak their sub-conscious mindset, and then lie equally openly. I am sure the Time correspondents in front of whom he spoke the denial, must have this act by the head of a state very amusing.

The bigger question is can anyone trust such a leadership of a Nation? Paul Wolfowitz and his gang, Rumsfeld and his gang, Rice and her gang are quite smart, and so are Blair and his gang. They`ll keep it in mind as a factor to decide, and smart Alecs may even exploit these additional testasterone and machoism Pakistan`s military leadership showed.

He might have gained to create ``confusion`` in domestic Pakistani media.
Today, both Pakistan and Mushraff lost more by denial.

After I had read the Washington Post (WP) report by another reporter that WP has tape and the tape has has been examined to confirm that the comments are from Musharaff.

Clearly, Musharaff and his advisors knew this fact before he denied speaking these words. They must have understood that that any denial will make WP to examine the tape and confirm or apologize.

The only reason I came up for Musharaff to speak a straight face lie to deny and say that he was there and had heard someone else speaking those words, was that it was for Paksitani consumption.

Everyone knows Musharaff in Paksitan. His supporters can say that he said the deial in front of euqlly respected American magazine that where he challenged WP that he was there and had heard someone else speak.

This is what will reverberate in Pakistani media, and not what WP has said how many in Pakistan know or care about WP. Pakistani opposition and democratic institutions are non-existant to challenge him, unlike in India. Domestic consumption of contradiction, confusion, and controversy good damage control and denial is good enough, so that pro-Musharaff Pakistani media and ``anti-statement`` Media will have many field days to duke it out. After that who really cares? This serves the purpose of Pakistani domestic consumption.

Anil