Rape and Exploitation - Pakistan’s Dilemma
Bina Shah September 18, 2005
#191 Posted by bbabu on September 30, 2005 10:14:59 pm
Gen. Musharraf `s Lies
Saturday, October 1, 2005; A16
PAKISTANI President Pervez Musharraf complains that his country is unfairly portrayed as a place where rape and other violence against women are rampant and frequently condoned. In fact, it deserves such a reputation. According to Pakistani human rights groups, thousands of attacks are reported every year, including gang rapes and ``honor killings`` of women who are accused of having affairs or who refuse an arranged marriage. Most of these attacks go unpunished. So retrograde are Pakistan`s laws that there are more than 1,500 women in prison as a result of rapes -- they were prosecuted for adultery -- while arrests of men occur in only about 15 percent of reported cases.
Gen. Musharraf, too, deserves the reputation he is earning as a ruler who cares more about how he is perceived in the West than in implementing the policies he claims to espouse, or even in speaking the truth. The general, who seized power in a coup six years ago, has reneged on promises to retire from the army or restore democracy. He has not carried out the reform of Islamic religious schools that he promised in 2001. He has allowed the extremist Afghan Taliban movement to base itself in Pakistan`s western provinces with virtual impunity. He has repeatedly insisted, almost certainly falsely, that Osama bin Laden is not in Pakistan. All the while he has gone on collecting hundreds of millions of dollars in aid each year from the Bush administration, which accepts his words and ignores most of his actions.
Gen. Musharraf claims to champion a ``moderate Islam`` that respects the rights of women. But when Mukhtar Mai, a victim of a gang rape whose attackers have not been punished, tried to visit the United States earlier this year, the president barred her from leaving the country. In an interview with The Post last month, he claimed that he had relented. But then he said this: ``You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.`` This statement was, as Pakistani activists and the Canadian government soon pointed out, an outrageous lie. There is only one known case of a rape victim moving to Canada, a doctor who was assaulted by a military officer. A far more common outcome for rape victims is to be ostracized by their communities or jailed.
When Gen. Musharraf`s statement provoked an uproar, he responded with another lie: He claimed that he had never made it. In fact, a recording of him speaking is available on The Post`s Web site, washingtonpost.com. His words are quite clear. ``These are not my words, and I would go to the extent of saying I am not so silly and stupid to make comments of this sort,`` the general said. Well, yes, he is.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
Saturday, October 1, 2005; A16
PAKISTANI President Pervez Musharraf complains that his country is unfairly portrayed as a place where rape and other violence against women are rampant and frequently condoned. In fact, it deserves such a reputation. According to Pakistani human rights groups, thousands of attacks are reported every year, including gang rapes and ``honor killings`` of women who are accused of having affairs or who refuse an arranged marriage. Most of these attacks go unpunished. So retrograde are Pakistan`s laws that there are more than 1,500 women in prison as a result of rapes -- they were prosecuted for adultery -- while arrests of men occur in only about 15 percent of reported cases.
Gen. Musharraf, too, deserves the reputation he is earning as a ruler who cares more about how he is perceived in the West than in implementing the policies he claims to espouse, or even in speaking the truth. The general, who seized power in a coup six years ago, has reneged on promises to retire from the army or restore democracy. He has not carried out the reform of Islamic religious schools that he promised in 2001. He has allowed the extremist Afghan Taliban movement to base itself in Pakistan`s western provinces with virtual impunity. He has repeatedly insisted, almost certainly falsely, that Osama bin Laden is not in Pakistan. All the while he has gone on collecting hundreds of millions of dollars in aid each year from the Bush administration, which accepts his words and ignores most of his actions.
Gen. Musharraf claims to champion a ``moderate Islam`` that respects the rights of women. But when Mukhtar Mai, a victim of a gang rape whose attackers have not been punished, tried to visit the United States earlier this year, the president barred her from leaving the country. In an interview with The Post last month, he claimed that he had relented. But then he said this: ``You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.`` This statement was, as Pakistani activists and the Canadian government soon pointed out, an outrageous lie. There is only one known case of a rape victim moving to Canada, a doctor who was assaulted by a military officer. A far more common outcome for rape victims is to be ostracized by their communities or jailed.
When Gen. Musharraf`s statement provoked an uproar, he responded with another lie: He claimed that he had never made it. In fact, a recording of him speaking is available on The Post`s Web site, washingtonpost.com. His words are quite clear. ``These are not my words, and I would go to the extent of saying I am not so silly and stupid to make comments of this sort,`` the general said. Well, yes, he is.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
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#190 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 22, 2005 7:43:34 am
#189 {``Please don`t worry about the smell``}
Now I am offended. :)
My jokes may stink but not my soul. :)
Thank you for the nice response.
Now I am offended. :)
My jokes may stink but not my soul. :)
Thank you for the nice response.
#188 Posted by Zeena on September 21, 2005 6:10:30 pm
If they kill the murderer,Why NOT rapists??
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.,whether her will is overcome by force or fear from thrat of force or by drugs or intoxicants; or when because of mental deficiency , she is incapaqble of exercising mental judgement, when she is below an age of consent.
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.,whether her will is overcome by force or fear from thrat of force or by drugs or intoxicants; or when because of mental deficiency , she is incapaqble of exercising mental judgement, when she is below an age of consent.
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
#186 Posted by dharma on September 21, 2005 2:00:59 pm
Looking from a different viewpoint, pakistan does give more freedom to its real constituency
(sunni male) than any other nation does to its citizens. One of which is freedom to rape. You can do it with impunity as long as you follow some simple rules like not doing it in places like mosques where more than 4 pious muslims may gather. You can drag them to
any other place or even rape them in their own homes or do it in different place
each time. Dont even think about it if you are not sunni muslim, you will be lynched by
a mob before a rape is even reported. So the problems we see if pakistan are only
problems if you see through the prism of eqaul rights for all humans. If you consider
for a moment women are not eqaul to men and non muslim are not equal to muslims,
it is a perfect country, giving all rights it can, to its main constituency.
(sunni male) than any other nation does to its citizens. One of which is freedom to rape. You can do it with impunity as long as you follow some simple rules like not doing it in places like mosques where more than 4 pious muslims may gather. You can drag them to
any other place or even rape them in their own homes or do it in different place
each time. Dont even think about it if you are not sunni muslim, you will be lynched by
a mob before a rape is even reported. So the problems we see if pakistan are only
problems if you see through the prism of eqaul rights for all humans. If you consider
for a moment women are not eqaul to men and non muslim are not equal to muslims,
it is a perfect country, giving all rights it can, to its main constituency.
#185 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 1:26:31 pm
#182, NT Sahib,
Did I ever tell you that Geoge Carlin and Bill Maher are my role models and source of inspiration. :)
Did I ever tell you that Geoge Carlin and Bill Maher are my role models and source of inspiration. :)
#184 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 1:25:19 pm
#182,
No, I am not offended. The definitions were not meant to be a satire. They are just a non-denominational, non-gender, non-sexist and obviously non-humorous attempt at word confusion. Haven`t you ever typed marital as martial? That`s how the silly thing started. Sorry about the sense of depravity, insensitivity, and abject depression caused by this offensive post.
As I mentioned earlier, let`s forget about the rapists and criminals and just go after the insensitive, uneducated, stupid, loudmouths who don`t know how to look serious or cry at a funeral.
No, I am not offended. The definitions were not meant to be a satire. They are just a non-denominational, non-gender, non-sexist and obviously non-humorous attempt at word confusion. Haven`t you ever typed marital as martial? That`s how the silly thing started. Sorry about the sense of depravity, insensitivity, and abject depression caused by this offensive post.
As I mentioned earlier, let`s forget about the rapists and criminals and just go after the insensitive, uneducated, stupid, loudmouths who don`t know how to look serious or cry at a funeral.
#189 Posted by ntsyed on September 21, 2005 11:11:01 pm
Re: # 184
Thank you!
This particular post of yours separates boys from men! Case in point: the posts just before and after yours. Btw, have you got some old shoes to discard? Looks like a couple of Allah`s creatures are in dire need to sink their teeth in. Please don`t worry about the smell; they love the smell of human sole [if only they knew how to spell it] ;-)~~
Like the wise always say: ``timing is everything!``.
I like Carlin and Maher too. Both of them have a remarkable outlook on the society and politics, etc. They`re more than simple comedians; more like social-commentators with the funny bone intact.
:-)~~
Thank you!
This particular post of yours separates boys from men! Case in point: the posts just before and after yours. Btw, have you got some old shoes to discard? Looks like a couple of Allah`s creatures are in dire need to sink their teeth in. Please don`t worry about the smell; they love the smell of human sole [if only they knew how to spell it] ;-)~~
Like the wise always say: ``timing is everything!``.
I like Carlin and Maher too. Both of them have a remarkable outlook on the society and politics, etc. They`re more than simple comedians; more like social-commentators with the funny bone intact.
:-)~~
#183 Posted by arjun_m on September 21, 2005 12:45:28 pm
#182 by ntsyed on September 21, 2005 12:03pm PT
oh blow yourself up in a subway somewhere already....
oh blow yourself up in a subway somewhere already....
#181 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 11:41:08 am
#178, That`s generic enough. You are right - it covers all bases, including Mr. #179`s unique concern.
#182 Posted by ntsyed on September 21, 2005 12:03:32 pm
Re: # 181
I think your satire earlier had a point. But I`m afraid the latest `definitions` in #177 cannot be classified as satire...at least not in good taste.
I expect posts of such depravity from the professional hate mongers, the likes of arjun_m, that`s why I never respond to them. To me that`d be like trying to snatch a bone from dog`s mouth when I neither have a use for the bone nor the dog; so why bother. He`s ostensibly aroused in #178.
I hope you don`t take it the wrong way, but I`d rather say it like it is, than sugar-coat it or let it go silently just because I like you otherwise. I hope you`re not offended.
Thanks,
:-)~~
I think your satire earlier had a point. But I`m afraid the latest `definitions` in #177 cannot be classified as satire...at least not in good taste.
I expect posts of such depravity from the professional hate mongers, the likes of arjun_m, that`s why I never respond to them. To me that`d be like trying to snatch a bone from dog`s mouth when I neither have a use for the bone nor the dog; so why bother. He`s ostensibly aroused in #178.
I hope you don`t take it the wrong way, but I`d rather say it like it is, than sugar-coat it or let it go silently just because I like you otherwise. I hope you`re not offended.
Thanks,
:-)~~
#180 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 11:39:55 am
#179, Aw get off your high horse. This was in response to another message defining rape. You are just like your mentor. BTW, satire has only one ``t.`` When you copy words, remember not to copy the typo too. Stupid fool!
#179 Posted by khamkhwa. on September 21, 2005 11:12:03 am
#177
...note the sensitivity of the crocodile who was only yesterday shedding copious tears on mukhtaran mai and other oppressed people of pakistan...this probably is his version of ``sattire`` not many comprehend or appreciate...
...note the sensitivity of the crocodile who was only yesterday shedding copious tears on mukhtaran mai and other oppressed people of pakistan...this probably is his version of ``sattire`` not many comprehend or appreciate...
#178 Posted by arjun_m on September 21, 2005 10:52:46 am
#177 by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 8:59am PT
Here`s an easy one
Insertion of a projection into a depressions without permission...
covers all bases I think...
Here`s an easy one
Insertion of a projection into a depressions without permission...
covers all bases I think...
#177 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 8:59:33 am
#175, Arjun, some more basic definitions. :)
Martial rape is rape of or by the military or by self-defense instructors.
Marital rape is rape of or by a spouse.
Martian rape is rape of or by aliens.
Mauritian rape is rape of or by dark people speaking French.
Mauritanian rape is rape of or by dark people speaking Arabic.
Martial rape is rape of or by the military or by self-defense instructors.
Marital rape is rape of or by a spouse.
Martian rape is rape of or by aliens.
Mauritian rape is rape of or by dark people speaking French.
Mauritanian rape is rape of or by dark people speaking Arabic.
#176 Posted by cipram on September 21, 2005 7:44:07 am
I could not believe it.
I think it,s just a slip of togue as they say `think before you speak`.
one should always give a pause before saying something.
anguish of candian Muslims is justified.
I think it,s just a slip of togue as they say `think before you speak`.
one should always give a pause before saying something.
anguish of candian Muslims is justified.
#175 Posted by arjun_m on September 21, 2005 5:09:04 am
#170 by Zeena on September 20, 2005 5:29pm PT
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.
No shiit sherlock...
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.
No shiit sherlock...
#174 Posted by bbabu on September 20, 2005 10:24:08 pm
Romair #149
`` This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture:``
If so how hard is it to topple all those feudals ?
In either case Musharraf has done more damage to Pakistan`s image compared to actual rapists.
`` This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture:``
If so how hard is it to topple all those feudals ?
In either case Musharraf has done more damage to Pakistan`s image compared to actual rapists.
#173 Posted by Zeena on September 20, 2005 9:32:58 pm
If they kill the murderer,Why NOT rapists??
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
#172 Posted by Zeena on September 20, 2005 9:32:56 pm
If they kill the murderer,Why NOT rapists??
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
Rapists do double crime.They murder innocent women`s body and soul.
So,they should be hanged infront of everyone TWICE so,that others should learn this lesson.
And as for as victims are,they should be given as much support as possible,by doing everythin possible for them to make them feel normal and healthy and socially acceptable.by helping them socially,mentally and financially.
They should be encouraged to report,so that others will be protected.
These people now argue about rapes.How come they can argue or favour this worst crime?? There are somethings in life,which are not meant to be argued.Everyone should be agreed upon favouring HANGING rapists.
Suppose,if samething happens to these people,how will they react???
I am sure they wish to kill the rapists with out even thinking twice.
And they wish the same for rapists.How on earth,can comment on such crime???
Honestly,most of these interactors and even some females ,are trying to put me down by arguing with me and by twisting my point of view.Just b/c of their insensitive nature they can not feel the pain for those miserable women.
If,Canada or America or anyone support them at this time,they are doing the best.
When a person is dying,everyone tries to save the life,they don`t start arguing or start giving comments on dying person.Any kind of support is appreciated to save the life.Same is with rape victim,They should be helped in any form,any way,any type....It doesn`t matter,all it matters is to support them and make them feel good about themselves.Not to isolate them.To discuss more about it.To save them from committing suicides.
if a murderer is punished by hanged to death or life time imprisonment .Then why not execute the rapists? b/c rapists committ the worst crimes than murder.......
#171 Posted by Zeena on September 20, 2005 5:30:10 pm
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.,whether her will is overcome by force or fear from thrat of force or by drugs or intoxicants; or when because of mental deficiency , she is incapaqble of exercising mental judgement, when she is below an age of consent.
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
#170 Posted by Zeena on September 20, 2005 5:29:00 pm
Rape is an act of sexual intercourse with a woman against her will and consent.,whether her will is overcome by force or fear from thrat of force or by drugs or intoxicants; or when because of mental deficiency , she is incapaqble of exercising mental judgement, when she is below an age of consent.
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
Male rapists are sexual sadists, who feel pleasure upon pain of their victims; exploitative predators, who use their vicitms as objects of gratification in an impuslvie and extremely cruel way with regression to animal instinct, inadequate men, angry men who displace their anger and rage by committing this worst crime .
Rapists consider women men`s property or vulnerable possessions, a rapist`s instruement for revenge against other
men.
Rapsits always threaten and uses fists, knives,guns. Victims are beaten,wounded and mostly killed . Victim is always in a life threatening situation. Mostly they are mudered. During rape vicitms experience shock, fright and panic . Rapists urinate or defecate on their victims, ejaculate in to their faces , hair ,force anal intercourse, and insert foreign objects in to their vaginas and rectums and in to their mouths.During rape,victim struggles to stay alive.
After rape, she experiences shame, humiliation, confusion, fear, and rage with extreme depression for the rest of their life.If,they don`t have good supportive system,mostly they attempt to commit suicide or sometimes they commit suicide.
So,both ways thier lives are completely damaged for the rest of their miserable lives.
In addition to extreme physical and mental trauma with assault, they also face SKEPTICISM from those to whom they reported the worst crime.(if they had sufficient strength to do so).
or accusations of having PROVOKED OR desired the assault.
Education of police officers to deal with rape victims have helped increase reporting crime. Rape crisis centers and volunteer groups with physicians education programs have helped in treatment of victims.
A victim fares best when she receives immediate SUPPORT and is able to ventilate her fear and rage to loving family members, SYMPATHETIC physicians, and LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.Knowing that she HAS socially ACCEPTABLE recourse , such as the ARREST and conviction of the rapist can help a rape victim..
Therapy is always,SUPPORTIVE and feelings that she is socially ACCEPTABLE ,secured, and focusing on restoring a victim`s sense of adequacy and control over her life; it also aims to relieve the feelings of HELPLESSNESS, DEPENDENCE, and obsession with the assault that frequently follow rape. Group threapy is also effective form of treatment .
Now,seeing this in the light of what some of the PAKIS say about rape along with their head of state,it looks like PAKI nation is loosing it. Insensitivity , cruel appraoch, mercilessness and heartless approach towards RAPE which shows in their statements and attitudes ,calling it EMOTIONAL , RATHER than RATIONAL. Blaming victims for GAINING FAVOURS to migrate abroad.
Emotional and rational are same things.Rational and emotional are both emotions controlled by brain.
The way these BRAINLESS PAKI OFFICIALS are viewing rapes looks like they don`t have rational and emotional approach.
When a woman is a vicitm of rape,she reacts with sadness,well this is absolutely rational to express her EMOTIONS AND TO DEAL WITH THEM.
Again,this is totally,RATIONAL to support the victims in every way possible to make her feel secured,NOT NEGLECTED.By giving her EXTREME IMPORTANCE,BY MAKING HER LIVE AGAIN B/C SHE IS DEAD AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE HER LIVING BEING.
Thanks
#169 Posted by friend on September 20, 2005 4:49:07 pm
To chowk staff
Your policing will make impact if rather than just stating `` This user has another valid Chowk Interactor id but is using a new id to harass other Interactors. Hence these comments will not be posted `` you also state user`s other interactor id.
Your policing will make impact if rather than just stating `` This user has another valid Chowk Interactor id but is using a new id to harass other Interactors. Hence these comments will not be posted `` you also state user`s other interactor id.
#167 Posted by thetinkler on September 20, 2005 2:41:34 pm
I say, give Mushaaraf a break!!.It`s very hard to do what he`s doing, balancing the various competing interests inside and outside the country.He need this `Mai` incident like a hole in his head.
#165 Posted by anil on September 20, 2005 11:00:54 am
Manto, Friend, Mohar:
All of you have have point, and more accurate in your analysis. A professional and sincere soldier will follow the code of conduct and code of ethics. I take my comment on Musharaff back, I apologize for them.
Thank you for pointing and correcting me.
Anil Kapuria
All of you have have point, and more accurate in your analysis. A professional and sincere soldier will follow the code of conduct and code of ethics. I take my comment on Musharaff back, I apologize for them.
Thank you for pointing and correcting me.
Anil Kapuria
#164 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 20, 2005 9:33:59 am
teshah #139,
Thanks for your support and understanding of my viewpoiint. At the risk of getting banned by Mr. Temporal and his henchmen, let me try to shed some logic into this issue:
THE CASE OF THE MUKHTAR MAI RAPE IS NOT YOUR COMMON CRIMINAL RAPE CASE INVOLVING SERIAL RAPISTS OR MASS RIOT-RELATED RAPES INVOLVING GANGS OR VIOLENT MOBS. THIS RAPE WAS SANCTIONED BY A QUASI-LEGAL AUTHORITY, THE GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY, KNOWN AS PANCHAYAT. THE SO-CALLED ``HONORABLE`` MEN PUNISHED AN INNOCENT WOMAN AND OTHER ``VOLUNTEERS`` CARRIED OUT THE VERDICT OF THIS AUTHORITY. THE POLICE, THE ADMINISTRATORS, AND EVEN THE LAHORE COURT ARE IMPLICATED IN THIS TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE. THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM HERE THAN MUSHARRAF, MUKHTARAN MAI, VISAS, AND THE WASHINGTON POST. THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE THINKING OF VILLAGE LEADERS AND LOCAL POLICE, NOT TO MENTION THE LAHORE COURT.
Rape is wrong. It`s criminal. It needs to be stamped out. There is never ANY excuse for rape. Stupid people often say stupid things and Mr. Temporal is no exception. Mushy was not misquoted, he actally said something that was insensitive, stupid, and may be fatally harmful to his position as ``president.`` But then, Bush said one or two insensitive things when he went to New Orleans about him having ``too good a time in NO while a young man.`` How about the notorious ``It`s a Crusade`` comment right after 9/11. We all remember Bill Clinton`s ``I did not have ...`` comment. Maybe the embarrassment of this goof will be sufficient impetus for Mushy to get to the bottom of the Lahore Court, Multan police, and Panchayyat mystery. Dictatorship does have its advantages - maybe we won`t have to wait for years for some simple answers and quick justice.
Thanks for your support and understanding of my viewpoiint. At the risk of getting banned by Mr. Temporal and his henchmen, let me try to shed some logic into this issue:
THE CASE OF THE MUKHTAR MAI RAPE IS NOT YOUR COMMON CRIMINAL RAPE CASE INVOLVING SERIAL RAPISTS OR MASS RIOT-RELATED RAPES INVOLVING GANGS OR VIOLENT MOBS. THIS RAPE WAS SANCTIONED BY A QUASI-LEGAL AUTHORITY, THE GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY, KNOWN AS PANCHAYAT. THE SO-CALLED ``HONORABLE`` MEN PUNISHED AN INNOCENT WOMAN AND OTHER ``VOLUNTEERS`` CARRIED OUT THE VERDICT OF THIS AUTHORITY. THE POLICE, THE ADMINISTRATORS, AND EVEN THE LAHORE COURT ARE IMPLICATED IN THIS TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE. THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM HERE THAN MUSHARRAF, MUKHTARAN MAI, VISAS, AND THE WASHINGTON POST. THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE THINKING OF VILLAGE LEADERS AND LOCAL POLICE, NOT TO MENTION THE LAHORE COURT.
Rape is wrong. It`s criminal. It needs to be stamped out. There is never ANY excuse for rape. Stupid people often say stupid things and Mr. Temporal is no exception. Mushy was not misquoted, he actally said something that was insensitive, stupid, and may be fatally harmful to his position as ``president.`` But then, Bush said one or two insensitive things when he went to New Orleans about him having ``too good a time in NO while a young man.`` How about the notorious ``It`s a Crusade`` comment right after 9/11. We all remember Bill Clinton`s ``I did not have ...`` comment. Maybe the embarrassment of this goof will be sufficient impetus for Mushy to get to the bottom of the Lahore Court, Multan police, and Panchayyat mystery. Dictatorship does have its advantages - maybe we won`t have to wait for years for some simple answers and quick justice.
#163 Posted by arjun_m on September 20, 2005 8:10:39 am
It`s ironic that a country that has been a condom for most of it`s existence is now in the news for a rape...
#161 Posted by friend on September 20, 2005 7:18:56 am
Anil #144
``I also think that Musharaff is a sincere and professional soldier. He is neither a politician, nor a statesman``
Anil
Following is an extract from my companies corporate policy about sexual harrassment
Supervisors and other members of management who are aware of violations by others and fail to report such violations also will be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including suspension and termination of employment....
Employees will not suffer adverse consequences as a result of reporting any act of harassment, including sexual harassment. ``
Mushy has assumed supreme executive powers in his country. He calls himself ``CEO``. Not only that, his powers include judicial powers too. His comments clearly indicate who will get benefit of doubt if rapists are convicted by every court and finally come to him for appeal.
His comments are equivalent to a supreme court justice giving opinion on a matter being discussed by a lower court.
His comments are clearly in conflict of what his role demands.
A sincere and professional soldier knows his boundaries. Mushy`s repeated behavior shows that he is neither a professional soldier, nor a good CEO.
``I also think that Musharaff is a sincere and professional soldier. He is neither a politician, nor a statesman``
Anil
Following is an extract from my companies corporate policy about sexual harrassment
Supervisors and other members of management who are aware of violations by others and fail to report such violations also will be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including suspension and termination of employment....
Employees will not suffer adverse consequences as a result of reporting any act of harassment, including sexual harassment. ``
Mushy has assumed supreme executive powers in his country. He calls himself ``CEO``. Not only that, his powers include judicial powers too. His comments clearly indicate who will get benefit of doubt if rapists are convicted by every court and finally come to him for appeal.
His comments are equivalent to a supreme court justice giving opinion on a matter being discussed by a lower court.
His comments are clearly in conflict of what his role demands.
A sincere and professional soldier knows his boundaries. Mushy`s repeated behavior shows that he is neither a professional soldier, nor a good CEO.
#160 Posted by temporal on September 20, 2005 7:04:53 am
bina 148:
fine
i made some suggestions in two posts one of them #35...in one of them a long term outlook on women`s `empowerment` to change the ground realities for them…
what gets white washed in all these mushy-bashing is simply this: it is futile to discuss laws when the problem lies in its implementation or lack of...it is those conditions that have to be reversed to arrest the abuse of justice and to provide a level playing field to all the citizens....
lve
t
fine
i made some suggestions in two posts one of them #35...in one of them a long term outlook on women`s `empowerment` to change the ground realities for them…
what gets white washed in all these mushy-bashing is simply this: it is futile to discuss laws when the problem lies in its implementation or lack of...it is those conditions that have to be reversed to arrest the abuse of justice and to provide a level playing field to all the citizens....
lve
t
#158 Posted by Urstruly on September 20, 2005 6:21:11 am
Rape does not fall under the category of Hadud laws, therefore, four witnesses are not required. The standard of witnesses (i.e. number) and forensic evidence is arbitrarily chosen but cannot be used to impose Hadd punishment for zina. Under Islamic jusripudence society is allowed to arbitrarily chose the punishment for rape, which in principle should be less sever than the Hadd - which is 100 stripes for unmarried perpetrator and stonning to death for married perpetrtor. The hadd punishment can only be imposed in case of rape when two conditions are met:
1. Four adult male witneseses happen to witness the actual act of penetration.
2. The perpetrator volunatrily confesses of rape.
The loophole in Pakistani law is that:
Suppose a woman claims that a certain man has raped her. Like any other culture in the world, unfortunately because of the nature of the crime, the bulk of the burden of proof lies with the woman. But if that woman fails to prove her case and polices also fails to prove the case with circumstantial or forensic evidence, then Pakistani judges on one hand let the perpetrator go free - nothing wrong with that - but the travesty is that they charge woman with the crime of fornication. Their rationale is that that woman by accusing another man of raping her has admitted to fornication at least. This is a travesty of justice and Islamic law explicitly forbids this practice of retaliation against woman in this form. A women cannot be charged like this. But thanks to fauji dictators they have turned jsudges into fukking rodents and cockroaches on one hand and on the other hand they don`t let any independent legislation to take palce in legislative so that these anomolies/travesties of justice can be straightened out in the law because legislative process threatens their petty fiefdoms.
#156 Posted by scout on September 20, 2005 5:24:30 am
the only person who contributed anything worthwhile to this whole forum is bina herself and the little post at the end by mantolives.
all the rest of you are just playing the typical pakistani routine..... start condemning one person while the problem lies in the whole damn country
all the rest of you are just playing the typical pakistani routine..... start condemning one person while the problem lies in the whole damn country
#157 Posted by Dash_Dot on September 20, 2005 5:52:35 am
Re: # 156
what about you ``intelligent design`` loving scout? apart from these four lines......
what about you ``intelligent design`` loving scout? apart from these four lines......
#168 Posted by scout on September 20, 2005 4:32:36 pm
Re: # 157
excuse me mr. dot, don`t push your beliefs on me, you were the one going on and on about how el presidente Bush is absolutely right in supporting the concept of `intelligent design`
i believe in EVOLUTION, now i think you should shuttup and dont` bring your unplugged garbage to the front page
thanks
excuse me mr. dot, don`t push your beliefs on me, you were the one going on and on about how el presidente Bush is absolutely right in supporting the concept of `intelligent design`
i believe in EVOLUTION, now i think you should shuttup and dont` bring your unplugged garbage to the front page
thanks
#155 Posted by vivek on September 20, 2005 5:23:58 am
Romair,
``In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. ``
Don`t compare the numbers, the numbers are underreported in our countries, the real numbers are much higher and it may surprise you.
``In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. ``
Don`t compare the numbers, the numbers are underreported in our countries, the real numbers are much higher and it may surprise you.
#152 Posted by harish_hyd on September 20, 2005 12:48:33 am
#149 by Romair
[This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture.]
And pray tell us who allowed feudalism and feudal culture to thrive? Is it not your Army, which has ruled Pakistan for most of its wretched existence?
[This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture.]
And pray tell us who allowed feudalism and feudal culture to thrive? Is it not your Army, which has ruled Pakistan for most of its wretched existence?
#151 Posted by MantoLives on September 19, 2005 10:20:05 pm
Behram,
The Hudood Ordinance does provide a loop hole and a judge, if Islamically inclined can choose to construe the law as such and allow the rapists go scott free... in absence of 4 witnesses.
However, in practice the Law can and should depend on other evidence like forensics etc in which case the rapists would not be charged under Hadd but under the normal secular laws which would mean jail for several counts...
-YLH
#150 Posted by MantoLives on September 19, 2005 10:06:53 pm
Rapes in the US (1 rape every 5 minutes- 720 rapes per day) and India are unfortunate crimes ... Rapes in Pakistan are power plays by dictators and feudals. Get a frigging life all of you.
The only issue here IS Hudood Ordinance which stops women from getting the justice they deserve.
#149 Posted by Romair on September 19, 2005 9:56:03 pm
``Changing the Hudood Ordinances, ensuring that rapes are registered as criminal offenses, guaranteeing that criminals are caught and punished, and making sure that women who report rapes and their families are safe from physical danger and intimidation``
This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture:
``Nasreen, a close aide of Mai, told Daily Times that the media needed to play a role to shape the idea of the forum. She said there was a need to fight the feudal system, which was one of the root causes of violence against women. `` http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_13-7-2005_pg7_17
How can someone support feudalism and speak out for rape victims? It doesn`t make sense to me. Isn`t this an even bigger problem. Shouldn`t we encourage the end of the feudal system. It is primarily due to this system, that no bill against honor killings ever passes through the Assembley. All the feudals vote against it, when they are the ruling party............
In my book, anyone who supports the root cause of such rapes - feudalism - as described by the victims, themselves, is an enabler of the system.........
This is all well and good. But I must say, I am still suprised that no one is willing to debate the key aspect of rape, against women in Pakistan. What are the victims of honor rapes, themselves saying. They all seem to be pointing to one thing - feudalism and feudal culture:
``Nasreen, a close aide of Mai, told Daily Times that the media needed to play a role to shape the idea of the forum. She said there was a need to fight the feudal system, which was one of the root causes of violence against women. `` http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_13-7-2005_pg7_17
How can someone support feudalism and speak out for rape victims? It doesn`t make sense to me. Isn`t this an even bigger problem. Shouldn`t we encourage the end of the feudal system. It is primarily due to this system, that no bill against honor killings ever passes through the Assembley. All the feudals vote against it, when they are the ruling party............
In my book, anyone who supports the root cause of such rapes - feudalism - as described by the victims, themselves, is an enabler of the system.........
#148 Posted by Bina_Shah on September 19, 2005 9:44:02 pm
Wow. I wasn`t expecting this sort of catfight with this article. Silly me, I somehow hoped that people would be able to debate rationally the points raised and perhaps come up with some sort of action plan or petition to sign and send to the President. But armchair warriors are just that, it seems.
Anyway, Romair, we have been having a spate of rapes in Karachi. In the poorest slums, little girls are being raped - some as young as three years old. This is happening with alarming frequency these past few months. These are city dwellers, with no ties to agriculture. Would you like to tell me how feudalism has caused these little children to be raped?
Perhaps I belong to that breed of feudals that you have never heard of - the kind that doesn`t believe in the subjugation and oppression of women. I suppose what you don`t understand frightens you - that there might actually be some of us out there who think that crimes against women are unforgivable. I actually feel that it is not the agircultural system that encourages these crimes but a horrible mix of tribalism, illiteracy, and misogyny, combined with the most chauvinistic elements of our patriarchal system, which causes these crimes to happen without any sort of punishment or accountability on ALL levels. Rape happens in the slums. It happens in the fields. It happens in streets in cities. It happens in oil fields. It happens in army barracks. In jails. In offices. Do you attribute ALL those rapes to feudalism, or only the ones in the rural areas? Could you clarify your position, please?
In my opinion, I wish we could forget about the four witneses rule. Especially in the case of people running in to see these little girls being raped, I think the offenders should be castrated and then shot upon the spot. Perhaps this is the one area where vigilanteism would actually have an effect.
The million dollar question: What are YOU going to do to try and fight this crime?
Anyway, Romair, we have been having a spate of rapes in Karachi. In the poorest slums, little girls are being raped - some as young as three years old. This is happening with alarming frequency these past few months. These are city dwellers, with no ties to agriculture. Would you like to tell me how feudalism has caused these little children to be raped?
Perhaps I belong to that breed of feudals that you have never heard of - the kind that doesn`t believe in the subjugation and oppression of women. I suppose what you don`t understand frightens you - that there might actually be some of us out there who think that crimes against women are unforgivable. I actually feel that it is not the agircultural system that encourages these crimes but a horrible mix of tribalism, illiteracy, and misogyny, combined with the most chauvinistic elements of our patriarchal system, which causes these crimes to happen without any sort of punishment or accountability on ALL levels. Rape happens in the slums. It happens in the fields. It happens in streets in cities. It happens in oil fields. It happens in army barracks. In jails. In offices. Do you attribute ALL those rapes to feudalism, or only the ones in the rural areas? Could you clarify your position, please?
In my opinion, I wish we could forget about the four witneses rule. Especially in the case of people running in to see these little girls being raped, I think the offenders should be castrated and then shot upon the spot. Perhaps this is the one area where vigilanteism would actually have an effect.
The million dollar question: What are YOU going to do to try and fight this crime?
#166 Posted by ntsyed on September 20, 2005 11:03:30 am
Re: # 148
``In my opinion, I wish we could forget about the four witneses rule. Especially in the case of people running in to see these little girls being raped, I think the offenders should be castrated and then shot upon the spot. Perhaps this is the one area where vigilanteism would actually have an effect.``
I`m on board! Tell me where to meet!
``In my opinion, I wish we could forget about the four witneses rule. Especially in the case of people running in to see these little girls being raped, I think the offenders should be castrated and then shot upon the spot. Perhaps this is the one area where vigilanteism would actually have an effect.``
I`m on board! Tell me where to meet!
#162 Posted by jawahara on September 20, 2005 7:44:14 am
Re: # 148
Hey Bina. I guess I had heard of rapes only in rural areas of Pakistan. The facts you relay are really frightening. This seems quite similar to what is happening in Delhi these days. Brazen acts of harassment and rapes. Very scary. I wonder what can be done....real, practical solutions. They are definitely needed.
Hey Bina. I guess I had heard of rapes only in rural areas of Pakistan. The facts you relay are really frightening. This seems quite similar to what is happening in Delhi these days. Brazen acts of harassment and rapes. Very scary. I wonder what can be done....real, practical solutions. They are definitely needed.
#154 Posted by Dash_Dot on September 20, 2005 3:47:28 am
Re: # 148 and Romair (many) and others
Rape is essentially a power tool - one of enforcing your power on another and frightening the pshyte of others. This power could be political, monetary, shear physical brute force (dadagiri/gangsterism etc). Polical+monetary power=feudalism (and its variations).
the only solution is to educate the population about their rights - that is the only solution. Education about rights is different from making them literate. The fear of the powerful about literacy is true, but in reality they fear what this literacy will do in terms of ensuring that the powerless realise the rights they have in society.
you need to find a way in short-ckting this literacy => knowledge of rights and go str to rights issue. Heck we have many literate folk here on chowk, but I wonder how many you could classify as educated.
Rights is the key. The rest follows from it. Hide the rights anf you have a whole lot of psuedo-powerless people cowering before you. Knowledge of ones rights gives a sense of purpose and dignity, and boosts your self-worth many fold.
Rape is essentially a power tool - one of enforcing your power on another and frightening the pshyte of others. This power could be political, monetary, shear physical brute force (dadagiri/gangsterism etc). Polical+monetary power=feudalism (and its variations).
the only solution is to educate the population about their rights - that is the only solution. Education about rights is different from making them literate. The fear of the powerful about literacy is true, but in reality they fear what this literacy will do in terms of ensuring that the powerless realise the rights they have in society.
you need to find a way in short-ckting this literacy => knowledge of rights and go str to rights issue. Heck we have many literate folk here on chowk, but I wonder how many you could classify as educated.
Rights is the key. The rest follows from it. Hide the rights anf you have a whole lot of psuedo-powerless people cowering before you. Knowledge of ones rights gives a sense of purpose and dignity, and boosts your self-worth many fold.
#147 Posted by Romair on September 19, 2005 9:42:39 pm
Dost-mittar #72: ``I think that he means well but he has this foot-in-the-mouth disease. He also probably still doesn`t understand what he said was wrong.
I don`t think that the man means bad. He is just clueless and insensitive to the current mode of thought on women`s issues.``
This is true. I don`t think he realizes what he said. There is nothing in his own lifestyle, nor in his policies, to indicate he supports what he said.......
Musharraf is the opposite of the average Paksitani politician. He has done a lot of good for women. Yet blows it by making stupid statements. While other politicians have done a lot to subjugate women, yet make it sound like they have done a lot.
One really has to be a politician to learn that art. One cannot be a general and learn it. Generals have a tendency to get very defensive about their countries. And then they tend to attack. My guess is that what he wanted to say was that there are, ``people`` in Pakistan who tell women that get raped and end up in Canada. The, ``they`` pointed to, ``people.`` However, what he ended up saying, or sounding like saying was a, ``they`` pointing to the women, themselves.........
Hopefully, he has learnt his lesson..........
In any case, unlike many people on this thread, I think women`s rights in Pakistan are actually going through a mini-revolution; relatively speaking. The best way to empower women is to give them seats in decision making bodies. They now have 33% seats reserved. There are more women in Pakistan`s Assemblies than in India`s or USA. In fact far more..........Musharraf originally wanted to reserve 50%.........
Education in Punjab for girls, I believe, has been made free...........
Musharraf promoted a women to the rank of Major General in the Army. Something no one ever did. And he has said, woman can become the COAS. And he personally allowed, at the request of a 17 year old, girls to become fighter pilots. And they are well on their way. Something that is unprecendented in South Asia.........
And I see far more women on stage, drama, doing hard-hitting talk-shows etc. than I ever have. The fact that all these rape cases are being discussed in public and the govt. is being challenged, is itself an indicator of that. Previously, such cases were suppressed by the local MNA and no one had the guts to challenge them.......Now the govt. is feeling pressured. An SP and DIG have been removed because of a rape. I have never heard of that happening before. In fact, I don`t ever remember the press being so aggressive on rape, before. This itself is an indication of freedom......
Musharraf just needs to not get carried away when he sees goras. This is a desi, or at least a Pakistani disease. They (we) get too excited when given importance by a gora sahib..........
In any case, as strange as it may sound on this thread, in my opinion, there are two groups that he has greatly empowered: women and religious minorities. For the first time, all their issues are being discussed out in the open, and the govt. is on the defensive.........No other govt. ever gave a hoot about them, earlier...........None of them got rid of separate electorates, none of them gave women seats in the parliament, none of them legislated against honor killings and women marrying the quran, nor against police officers raping women.......
At the same time, they were intelligent enough to make the correct noises, though. Amin Fahim, the head of PPP, has four sisters married to the Quran. However, he would never make such a stupid statement about rape......
I prefer someone, who can walk the walk and talk the talk. However, my second choice is someone who at leasts can walk the walk, if not talk the talk, on such an issue.........this is the category Musharraf is in, on these issues. The most dangerous ones are the likes of Amin Fahim and other feudals etc; they talk the talk, but do not walk the walk on issues of women empowerment.........
I don`t think that the man means bad. He is just clueless and insensitive to the current mode of thought on women`s issues.``
This is true. I don`t think he realizes what he said. There is nothing in his own lifestyle, nor in his policies, to indicate he supports what he said.......
Musharraf is the opposite of the average Paksitani politician. He has done a lot of good for women. Yet blows it by making stupid statements. While other politicians have done a lot to subjugate women, yet make it sound like they have done a lot.
One really has to be a politician to learn that art. One cannot be a general and learn it. Generals have a tendency to get very defensive about their countries. And then they tend to attack. My guess is that what he wanted to say was that there are, ``people`` in Pakistan who tell women that get raped and end up in Canada. The, ``they`` pointed to, ``people.`` However, what he ended up saying, or sounding like saying was a, ``they`` pointing to the women, themselves.........
Hopefully, he has learnt his lesson..........
In any case, unlike many people on this thread, I think women`s rights in Pakistan are actually going through a mini-revolution; relatively speaking. The best way to empower women is to give them seats in decision making bodies. They now have 33% seats reserved. There are more women in Pakistan`s Assemblies than in India`s or USA. In fact far more..........Musharraf originally wanted to reserve 50%.........
Education in Punjab for girls, I believe, has been made free...........
Musharraf promoted a women to the rank of Major General in the Army. Something no one ever did. And he has said, woman can become the COAS. And he personally allowed, at the request of a 17 year old, girls to become fighter pilots. And they are well on their way. Something that is unprecendented in South Asia.........
And I see far more women on stage, drama, doing hard-hitting talk-shows etc. than I ever have. The fact that all these rape cases are being discussed in public and the govt. is being challenged, is itself an indicator of that. Previously, such cases were suppressed by the local MNA and no one had the guts to challenge them.......Now the govt. is feeling pressured. An SP and DIG have been removed because of a rape. I have never heard of that happening before. In fact, I don`t ever remember the press being so aggressive on rape, before. This itself is an indication of freedom......
Musharraf just needs to not get carried away when he sees goras. This is a desi, or at least a Pakistani disease. They (we) get too excited when given importance by a gora sahib..........
In any case, as strange as it may sound on this thread, in my opinion, there are two groups that he has greatly empowered: women and religious minorities. For the first time, all their issues are being discussed out in the open, and the govt. is on the defensive.........No other govt. ever gave a hoot about them, earlier...........None of them got rid of separate electorates, none of them gave women seats in the parliament, none of them legislated against honor killings and women marrying the quran, nor against police officers raping women.......
At the same time, they were intelligent enough to make the correct noises, though. Amin Fahim, the head of PPP, has four sisters married to the Quran. However, he would never make such a stupid statement about rape......
I prefer someone, who can walk the walk and talk the talk. However, my second choice is someone who at leasts can walk the walk, if not talk the talk, on such an issue.........this is the category Musharraf is in, on these issues. The most dangerous ones are the likes of Amin Fahim and other feudals etc; they talk the talk, but do not walk the walk on issues of women empowerment.........
#146 Posted by Zeena on September 19, 2005 9:34:52 pm
An interview with President Musharaf,in which he mentioned,``comparison between the incidence of rape in western countries and Pakistan. It’s happening everywhere, he said, and then added: “You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada and citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.”
I have never ever heard such a cruel statement by any person in my whole life and I am sure will never hear it again.No,human can say such a thing.I am sure,even a rapist can not say such thing.This statement makes me sick to the extent that I feel sorry fo poor Pakistanis who has such a President(head of state).
On,side note,I think Musharaf has her own daughter and wife as well.What if samething happen to them?Will he say the samething for them as well?
Mr.President you are not only wrong,but,extremely cruel and pathetic.
When ever we hear a news about RAPE in Pakistan. On interrogation, all Paki Govt. officals state,``Oh,RAPE,well this is happening everywhere in the world.More common in Western countries.`` And,by making such a stupid and cruel statement they think,their duty is over and they could easily get away with it.
Well,first of RAPE is UNDER REPORTED in Pakistan.Then,even if it is reported,is not being supported by any Govt agencies.Rather RAPISTS have a lots of support from Govt,b/c lots of RAPISTS are either Ministers,senators,army officials or they have strong connections with them.So,they easily get away with RAPE.
Pakistan is so,called Islamic nation,how can RAPE even be committed?
I am sure Pakistan has more RAPES,COMPARED to USA,b/c of ignorance and poverty.
My answer to this dumb statement is,don`t make such statement which are not only cruel,but,they are justifying and favouring RAPE.By,saying this these officials become part of rapists team.
Well,this is solely your opinion.But,I think you are also human being.So,being a member of a civil society that you are.Will you please answer only one question.If you will say (yes) to this question,then you`re not human being and if you will say (No) to my question then you are human being.
PS:-Please don`t take my question as a personal attack.In no way I am attacking you personally.Thanks
Suppose,if Musharaf`s sister/mother/daughter has been dragged in similar rape situation,will he say the same senseless statement as has been stated by President general Musharaf(who is forgetting that he also is father / son and brother??
I have always admired Musharaf ,but, on this statement I have changed my opinion about this man.Thanks for not arguing with me on this highly sensitive issue.
Musharaf with such a heartless statement has nerves to deny it ,now....tsk,tsk,ts
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read Musharaf`s response.
Mr.President
You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any human being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
I have never ever heard such a cruel statement by any person in my whole life and I am sure will never hear it again.No,human can say such a thing.I am sure,even a rapist can not say such thing.This statement makes me sick to the extent that I feel sorry fo poor Pakistanis who has such a President(head of state).
On,side note,I think Musharaf has her own daughter and wife as well.What if samething happen to them?Will he say the samething for them as well?
Mr.President you are not only wrong,but,extremely cruel and pathetic.
When ever we hear a news about RAPE in Pakistan. On interrogation, all Paki Govt. officals state,``Oh,RAPE,well this is happening everywhere in the world.More common in Western countries.`` And,by making such a stupid and cruel statement they think,their duty is over and they could easily get away with it.
Well,first of RAPE is UNDER REPORTED in Pakistan.Then,even if it is reported,is not being supported by any Govt agencies.Rather RAPISTS have a lots of support from Govt,b/c lots of RAPISTS are either Ministers,senators,army officials or they have strong connections with them.So,they easily get away with RAPE.
Pakistan is so,called Islamic nation,how can RAPE even be committed?
I am sure Pakistan has more RAPES,COMPARED to USA,b/c of ignorance and poverty.
My answer to this dumb statement is,don`t make such statement which are not only cruel,but,they are justifying and favouring RAPE.By,saying this these officials become part of rapists team.
Well,this is solely your opinion.But,I think you are also human being.So,being a member of a civil society that you are.Will you please answer only one question.If you will say (yes) to this question,then you`re not human being and if you will say (No) to my question then you are human being.
PS:-Please don`t take my question as a personal attack.In no way I am attacking you personally.Thanks
Suppose,if Musharaf`s sister/mother/daughter has been dragged in similar rape situation,will he say the same senseless statement as has been stated by President general Musharaf(who is forgetting that he also is father / son and brother??
I have always admired Musharaf ,but, on this statement I have changed my opinion about this man.Thanks for not arguing with me on this highly sensitive issue.
Musharaf with such a heartless statement has nerves to deny it ,now....tsk,tsk,ts
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read Musharaf`s response.
Mr.President
You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any human being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
#145 Posted by Romair on September 19, 2005 9:20:15 pm
Pakistanis seem to lose all sense of themselves, when they get into the limelight. Hence I am not surprised at what Musharraf said. It is the typical Pakistani disease. Anyone who gets enough attention, turns into a self-appointed defender of the nation`s, ``pride.`` Be it Hoodbhoy, Musharraf or Asma Jehangir, Hamid Gul or Qazi Hussain.........
Throw a few camera lights on, a foreign reporter and a television crew, and you will get something controversial. People love to be in the limelight, and don`t know when to stop. Everyone turns into a reformer trying to reform Pakistan. Look at the discussions on Chowk. And eventually put their foot in their mouth..........
In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. One out of every five American women, statistically, has been date-raped.....So one should not get carried away......
The unique thing about Pakistan are the type of rapes. Honor rapes, honor killings associated with rapes and marriage, panchayat-based rapes etc. are unique to a few countries. They indicate a mentality that subjugates women. And as I mentioned before that is rooted in feudalism. Not in Musharraf putting his foot in his mouth. Evern Mukhtar Mai blames feudalism for her rape. She doesn`t blame Musharraf.........A peasant women living on a feudal farm is the most vulnerable to rape. The wife of a havaldar, living on a military cantonment isn`t vulnerable to rape. Neither is the wife of maulvi living in Mansoora...........
I suppose that is a deadly combination. Leaders who put their foot in their mouth...and a feudal system that encourages rape.........
Based on that, I still have major issues with people who justify such feudal systems, which the rape -ees are blaming for their rapes. And simultaneously trying to speak out against rapes. That is a double-standard that has got to go. The author needs to decide which side she is on..........
Throw a few camera lights on, a foreign reporter and a television crew, and you will get something controversial. People love to be in the limelight, and don`t know when to stop. Everyone turns into a reformer trying to reform Pakistan. Look at the discussions on Chowk. And eventually put their foot in their mouth..........
In any case, rapes happen everywhere. Far more in the USA than in Pakistan. One out of every five American women, statistically, has been date-raped.....So one should not get carried away......
The unique thing about Pakistan are the type of rapes. Honor rapes, honor killings associated with rapes and marriage, panchayat-based rapes etc. are unique to a few countries. They indicate a mentality that subjugates women. And as I mentioned before that is rooted in feudalism. Not in Musharraf putting his foot in his mouth. Evern Mukhtar Mai blames feudalism for her rape. She doesn`t blame Musharraf.........A peasant women living on a feudal farm is the most vulnerable to rape. The wife of a havaldar, living on a military cantonment isn`t vulnerable to rape. Neither is the wife of maulvi living in Mansoora...........
I suppose that is a deadly combination. Leaders who put their foot in their mouth...and a feudal system that encourages rape.........
Based on that, I still have major issues with people who justify such feudal systems, which the rape -ees are blaming for their rapes. And simultaneously trying to speak out against rapes. That is a double-standard that has got to go. The author needs to decide which side she is on..........
#143 Posted by Zeena on September 19, 2005 8:24:25 pm
An interview with President Musharaf,in which he mentioned,``comparison between the incidence of rape in western countries and Pakistan. It’s happening everywhere, he said, and then added: “You must understand the environment in Pakistan. This has become a money-making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada and citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped.”
I have never ever heard such a cruel statement by any person in my whole life and I am sure will never hear it again.No,human can say such a thing.I am sure,even a rapist can not say such thing.This statement makes me sick to the extent that I feel sorry fo poor Pakistanis who has such a President(head of state).
On,side note,I think Musharaf has her own daughter and wife as well.What if samething happen to them?Will he say the samething for them as well?
Mr.President you are not only wrong,but,extremely cruel and pathetic.
When ever we hear a news about RAPE in Pakistan. On interrogation, all Paki Govt. officals state,``Oh,RAPE,well this is happening everywhere in the world.More common in Western countries.`` And,by making such a stupid and cruel statement they think,their duty is over and they could easily get away with it.
Well,first of RAPE is UNDER REPORTED in Pakistan.Then,even if it is reported,is not being supported by any Govt agencies.Rather RAPISTS have a lots of support from Govt,b/c lots of RAPISTS are either Ministers,senators,army officials or they have strong connections with them.So,they easily get away with RAPE.
Pakistan is so,called Islamic nation,how can RAPE even be committed?
I am sure Pakistan has more RAPES,COMPARED to USA,b/c of ignorance and poverty.
My answer to this dumb statement is,don`t make such statement which are not only cruel,but,they are justifying and favouring RAPE.By,saying this these officials become part of rapists team.
Well,this is solely your opinion.But,I think you are also human being.So,being a member of a civil society that you are.Will you please answer only one question.If you will say (yes) to this question,then you`re not human being and if you will say (No) to my question then you are human being.
PS:-Please don`t take my question as a personal attack.In no way I am attacking you personally.Thanks
Suppose,if Musharaf`s sister/mother/daughter has been dragged in similar rape situation,will he say the same senseless statement as has been stated by President general Musharaf(who is forgetting that he also is father / son and brother??
I have always admired Musharaf ,but, on this statement I have changed my opinion about this man.Thanks for not arguing with me on this highly sensitive issue.
Musharaf with such a heartless statement has nerves to deny it ,now....tsk,tsk,ts
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read Musharaf`s response.
Mr.President
You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any huma being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
I have never ever heard such a cruel statement by any person in my whole life and I am sure will never hear it again.No,human can say such a thing.I am sure,even a rapist can not say such thing.This statement makes me sick to the extent that I feel sorry fo poor Pakistanis who has such a President(head of state).
On,side note,I think Musharaf has her own daughter and wife as well.What if samething happen to them?Will he say the samething for them as well?
Mr.President you are not only wrong,but,extremely cruel and pathetic.
When ever we hear a news about RAPE in Pakistan. On interrogation, all Paki Govt. officals state,``Oh,RAPE,well this is happening everywhere in the world.More common in Western countries.`` And,by making such a stupid and cruel statement they think,their duty is over and they could easily get away with it.
Well,first of RAPE is UNDER REPORTED in Pakistan.Then,even if it is reported,is not being supported by any Govt agencies.Rather RAPISTS have a lots of support from Govt,b/c lots of RAPISTS are either Ministers,senators,army officials or they have strong connections with them.So,they easily get away with RAPE.
Pakistan is so,called Islamic nation,how can RAPE even be committed?
I am sure Pakistan has more RAPES,COMPARED to USA,b/c of ignorance and poverty.
My answer to this dumb statement is,don`t make such statement which are not only cruel,but,they are justifying and favouring RAPE.By,saying this these officials become part of rapists team.
Well,this is solely your opinion.But,I think you are also human being.So,being a member of a civil society that you are.Will you please answer only one question.If you will say (yes) to this question,then you`re not human being and if you will say (No) to my question then you are human being.
PS:-Please don`t take my question as a personal attack.In no way I am attacking you personally.Thanks
Suppose,if Musharaf`s sister/mother/daughter has been dragged in similar rape situation,will he say the same senseless statement as has been stated by President general Musharaf(who is forgetting that he also is father / son and brother??
I have always admired Musharaf ,but, on this statement I have changed my opinion about this man.Thanks for not arguing with me on this highly sensitive issue.
Musharaf with such a heartless statement has nerves to deny it ,now....tsk,tsk,ts
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read Musharaf`s response.
Mr.President
You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any huma being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
#142 Posted by Zeena on September 19, 2005 8:15:55 pm
My opinion about Musharaf`s pathetic statement is as follows.....
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read your response. You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any human being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
Please,do not be sarcastic about poor miserable Mukhata Mai.if,you can not say a word of sympathy,then at least refrain from favouring rapists.
I am sorry to read your response. You see rape in a totally different perspective. You know,why I am getting impression from your response that you are Not a sensitive person at all.
Person like you can easily say anything on any crime,like rape ,murder or any other serious crime. You will say,oh,so,what it did not happen to me or my family member,I di not feel the pain,why these people who got hurt are crying and why other people are consoling them. You are very sarcastic on a rape victim.This shows how you feel about other peoples sufferings.
Any human being will feel Mukhataran Mai same way as she felt pain.Yes,if you are human being.If,not then we are absolutely NOT human beings.Thanks
Nothing more to say.
#141 Posted by hamidm2 on September 19, 2005 7:42:41 pm
......... i have nothing new to add except to reiterate that faujis should be sent back to their barracks and should never be allowed to speak in public .............
#140 Posted by Behram1 on September 19, 2005 7:32:55 pm
Anyone??
I heard that in Pakistani court, a rape victim has to provide four (4) eye witnesses who has actually seen the act. Can anyone tell me if this statement is true?
As usual, most humbly and respecfully submitted,
BBA
#138 Posted by Urstruly on September 19, 2005 7:00:41 pm
ANOTHER MUKHTARAN MAI THREATENS TO SELF-IMMULATE HERSELF
Jang Sep 19, 2005
#137 Posted by Saminasha on September 19, 2005 6:51:37 pm
Bina,
Great piece! Thanks for bringing Dr. Saigol`s work to our attention as well.
Great piece! Thanks for bringing Dr. Saigol`s work to our attention as well.
#136 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:59:19 pm
:)
u r right!
my reply is incomplete...
``nahin sirji`` should have been followed by ``...it was not discussed at all..``
rgds
t
u r right!
my reply is incomplete...
``nahin sirji`` should have been followed by ``...it was not discussed at all..``
rgds
t
#135 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:55:32 pm
i must now beg leave, mr. t. see you around on chowk.
#134 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:51:17 pm
i dont understand how #133 responds to the simple question i asked in #132.
as for dumping on musharaff - i dont think we are capable of dumping on musharaff, who walks around grandly in his uniform. at best, we can feebly voice our discontent on chowk at his taking over the country by force, reneging on promises to return to democracy, and now joking about serious issues like the rape of women. that is about all we can do.
as for dumping on musharaff - i dont think we are capable of dumping on musharaff, who walks around grandly in his uniform. at best, we can feebly voice our discontent on chowk at his taking over the country by force, reneging on promises to return to democracy, and now joking about serious issues like the rape of women. that is about all we can do.
#133 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:45:10 pm
tahmed: 132:
nahin sirji!
perhaps for two reasons...fore most...all and sundry( including me) are dumping on mushy and that `sattire` diversion
nahin sirji!
perhaps for two reasons...fore most...all and sundry( including me) are dumping on mushy and that `sattire` diversion
#132 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:33:59 pm
#35 is a great post. having worked on microcredit projects at one time, i can say it is indeed true what you write. does anyone disagree with it?
#131 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:29:42 pm
#130:
sirji:
janay diji`aye ... yeh sub ``sattire``ka fall out thaa
if you want to be serious check out what i wrote in #35
sirji:
janay diji`aye ... yeh sub ``sattire``ka fall out thaa
if you want to be serious check out what i wrote in #35
#130 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:27:58 pm
#126 mr. t, aap kaa rootbaa bahut baland hai. you posts are riddles within riddles. no doubt hazrat sulaimaan would understand what you write... yeh ganga ram (i.e. tahmed) ki samajh maiN na ai!!
#128 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:25:18 pm
#126:
yes sir, that is one possibility
the other one is ..........:)
yes sir, that is one possibility
the other one is ..........:)
#127 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:24:24 pm
Agar khuda ki marzi hai to fitteen ka naqab utar jaiga pehle ki tarha. :)
Shab Bakhair.
Shab Bakhair.
#126 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:23:59 pm
mr. t: Sir jee, i think you are ducking the question. :-)
#125 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:23:20 pm
salim #120 let us nevertheless keep hopes alive for democratic forces in pakistan to strengthen (as no doubt they will over time, as a direct result of increasing numbers in the middle class).
#124 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:23:09 pm
#122:
bhai jaan
i have!
baqi allah ki marzi
bhai jaan
i have!
baqi allah ki marzi
#123 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:23:00 pm
Tahmed Sahib and Raw Dust:
Good night.
I think that Temporal has too many issues with people`s nics, their personalities, and his own prejudices and favoritism. He is certainly not a good example or role model for young people of any origin. The man is a total fraud.
Good night.
I think that Temporal has too many issues with people`s nics, their personalities, and his own prejudices and favoritism. He is certainly not a good example or role model for young people of any origin. The man is a total fraud.
#122 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:21:25 pm
temporal: sir jee, aap nacheez ki aqal ko bahut overestimate kar rahay haiN. instead of an ``ishara``, why dont you just say what it is you are trying to prove?? :-)
#121 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 19, 2005 4:20:56 pm
The question is why thugs in khakis never let a single elected government finish its term?. Expecting a democratic system to deliver in a predominantly feudal society within a couple years is Unreal, imo, when generals are supposed to have the country to their devices and thuggery for decades(except yahya).
#120 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:20:40 pm
Tahmed Sahib and Raw Dust,
I wish we could have democracy (true democracy) in Pakistan. It took India 58 years to be where they are today. And this is following a firm commitment to democracy, reaffirmed through dynasty, emergency, wars, socialism, communal riots, and foreign espionage. Pakistan has almost NEVER demonstrated that kind of commitment.
I wish we could have democracy (true democracy) in Pakistan. It took India 58 years to be where they are today. And this is following a firm commitment to democracy, reaffirmed through dynasty, emergency, wars, socialism, communal riots, and foreign espionage. Pakistan has almost NEVER demonstrated that kind of commitment.
#119 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:19:36 pm
#118:
aap buhat aqalmund haiN
aap ko bus ik ishara kafi hay
aap buhat aqalmund haiN
aap ko bus ik ishara kafi hay
#118 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:18:07 pm
mt t: you are trying to prove ``several things``?? is that an answer??
#117 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:17:38 pm
Raw Dust,
Yes, now we are getting somewhere. Your point about the judiciary and how they function under a dictatorship is quite correct. Unfortunately, our courts didn`t function too well under the ``democracy`` of Nawaxz, or BB, or ZAB.
There is something fundamentally wrong in Paki society about the powerful. Many of them do not care for the rule of law - even those who are legally elected.
Now, you can understand why I am so disappointed with the future of Pakistan. Get rid of Mushy, you get Fazloo, rig an election and you have BB or Nawaz back in control. So the question is: Do we want to be raped, shot, gored, or flogged to death? HELP.
Yes, now we are getting somewhere. Your point about the judiciary and how they function under a dictatorship is quite correct. Unfortunately, our courts didn`t function too well under the ``democracy`` of Nawaxz, or BB, or ZAB.
There is something fundamentally wrong in Paki society about the powerful. Many of them do not care for the rule of law - even those who are legally elected.
Now, you can understand why I am so disappointed with the future of Pakistan. Get rid of Mushy, you get Fazloo, rig an election and you have BB or Nawaz back in control. So the question is: Do we want to be raped, shot, gored, or flogged to death? HELP.
#116 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:17:13 pm
#112:
several things...one of which i mentioned in response to friend
#110:
my ``cohorts`` are a figment of your imagination
i am asking you a direct question and you are avoiding and deflecting...
good night (Current time Tuesday, September 20, 2005 at 2:12:59 AM EEST )
several things...one of which i mentioned in response to friend
#110:
my ``cohorts`` are a figment of your imagination
i am asking you a direct question and you are avoiding and deflecting...
good night (Current time Tuesday, September 20, 2005 at 2:12:59 AM EEST )
#115 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 19, 2005 4:16:24 pm
``Mushy, besides being a two-bit dictator, doesn`t need such advice. His word is the last word in Pakistan. Like you, I wish there was an alternative to Mushy, but do you seriously want Fazloo or Nawazy or BB? ``
change names above and pretty much thats what the older dying generation of paki uncles have been harping on throughout Ayub(musharraf-I, imo), yahya, genocide of their fellow citizens in `71 and so on. You seem to be advocating nothing new, just arguing for the continuation of historical paki mindset devoid of any principles.
change names above and pretty much thats what the older dying generation of paki uncles have been harping on throughout Ayub(musharraf-I, imo), yahya, genocide of their fellow citizens in `71 and so on. You seem to be advocating nothing new, just arguing for the continuation of historical paki mindset devoid of any principles.
#114 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:15:27 pm
#113 the system is what matters, not personalities. if pakistan has a democratic system, it would be better off regardless of who is pm. with a dictatorship, it does not matter how smart the dictator is (or thinks he is).
#113 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:13:24 pm
#109, Again, we are letting words and emotion guide our thinking. The real travesty was the authority in Multan, then the Lahore Court, and yes, then the President.
We are right back to Nawlens. Start with the Mayor, work up to the Governor, and yes, of course, Dubya is responsible. The major difference is that Dubya is a politician with some competent advisors helping him with every word he says or doesn`t say. Mushy, besides being a two-bit dictator, doesn`t need such advice. His word is the last word in Pakistan. Like you, I wish there was an alternative to Mushy, but do you seriously want Fazloo or Nawazy or BB?
We are right back to Nawlens. Start with the Mayor, work up to the Governor, and yes, of course, Dubya is responsible. The major difference is that Dubya is a politician with some competent advisors helping him with every word he says or doesn`t say. Mushy, besides being a two-bit dictator, doesn`t need such advice. His word is the last word in Pakistan. Like you, I wish there was an alternative to Mushy, but do you seriously want Fazloo or Nawazy or BB?
#112 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 19, 2005 4:12:34 pm
Salim_Chauhan: (another example)
Chaudhary Shujaat and his groupies from Gujarat wont have to pay for their crimes and unpaid-loans as long as they keep licking you know who`s balls.
Chaudhary Shujaat and his groupies from Gujarat wont have to pay for their crimes and unpaid-loans as long as they keep licking you know who`s balls.
#111 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 19, 2005 4:10:22 pm
Salim_Chauhan:
i agree with your post completely. But you are missing the point of institutions having any semblance of being authoritative under a dictator.
You expect courts to work judiciously under a dictator? These horrible crimes will keep on happening as long as you are in the good books of El-Presidente. Is that so hard to understand?
i agree with your post completely. But you are missing the point of institutions having any semblance of being authoritative under a dictator.
You expect courts to work judiciously under a dictator? These horrible crimes will keep on happening as long as you are in the good books of El-Presidente. Is that so hard to understand?
#110 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:10:08 pm
Temporal,
You were right there on the job. Did your cohorts provoke me with profanity hurled at my family and me? Did Chowk Staff, to which you are somehow connected, unfairly side with your cohorts or not? First you answer, then I will tell you everything you need to know.
I think that this is good. Let`s get it ALL in front of the Chowk audience.
You were right there on the job. Did your cohorts provoke me with profanity hurled at my family and me? Did Chowk Staff, to which you are somehow connected, unfairly side with your cohorts or not? First you answer, then I will tell you everything you need to know.
I think that this is good. Let`s get it ALL in front of the Chowk audience.
#109 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:08:34 pm
mr. chauhan #106 responsibility starts at the top - particularly in a case like mukhtaran mai where musharaff demonstrated a contemptible attitude to the rape case even after the facts were known to him.
#108 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:07:34 pm
#105, Tahmed Sahib, Yes, the Mullah (the whistle blower showed a lot of courage) and not enough can be said about MukhtaraN Mai. Not only did she endure her unjust, cruel, and savage ordeal, but she fought agaiinst the powerful system despite the risk to her life and the obvious ``shame`` unjustly imposed on victims by Paki society.
#107 Posted by temporal on September 19, 2005 4:06:53 pm
Friend #97:
appreciate your comments and i have answered that in #64
why is this important?
how can that person who can own up to the posted quotes by kham can write the “sattire” in #44
salim
a simple yes or no
did you or did you not author the quotes in 67
appreciate your comments and i have answered that in #64
why is this important?
how can that person who can own up to the posted quotes by kham can write the “sattire” in #44
salim
a simple yes or no
did you or did you not author the quotes in 67
#106 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 4:04:52 pm
Why do Pakis deny that there is something wrong in Pakistan? They are always searching for an evil person who caused them to do evil. What is wrong with admitting that ``honorable`` Paki men, acting in their quasi-official authority, sanctioned a cruel, savage, humiliating, and irreversible punishment on an innocent woman? What is wrong with admitting that the Lahore Court succumbed to influence and pressure from influential Paki people to overturn the lower court`s verdict against the perpetrators?
To turn this travesty of law into a stage for bringing back Benazir Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif is nothing short of opportunistic.
To turn this travesty of law into a stage for bringing back Benazir Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif is nothing short of opportunistic.
#105 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:03:28 pm
actually, there are some heros in this too:
1. mukhtaran mai - who used the money to start a school in the same village, and who continues to speak out against the outrage committed on her.
2. the village mullah - who brought the case to the open by speaking out during the friday prayers (and you know how much i hate mullahs - but lets give credit where credit is due).
1. mukhtaran mai - who used the money to start a school in the same village, and who continues to speak out against the outrage committed on her.
2. the village mullah - who brought the case to the open by speaking out during the friday prayers (and you know how much i hate mullahs - but lets give credit where credit is due).
#104 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 19, 2005 4:01:38 pm
Why Pakisatnis even consider Musharraf as the rightful Head of State.? Musharraf under constitution of 1973 is deserving of death sentence on charges of Treason. He should be considered a criminal from the day 12th October, 1999 when he and his cohorts deprived people of pakistan of their government. From that day these criminals and thugs in khakis have held pakistanis hostage under their occupation.
To expect him to apologise over the statement or other such issues is irrelevant at the very least.
To expect him to apologise over the statement or other such issues is irrelevant at the very least.
#103 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 4:00:39 pm
Mr. salim: so i think you and i agree. actually, even mushy agrees that the remark was stupid (he said so) - only now he says he didnt say it!
#102 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 3:59:41 pm
The rapists = Panchayat, the influential family, the actual rapists, the police who didn`t interfere, the Lahore high court who ``discovered`` some profound evidence to overturn the case, and the army of self-serving do gooders who created a cricus out of the whole tragedy to further their own agenda.
#101 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 3:57:54 pm
Listen people,
I am totally against Mushy`s remarks. But shouldn`t we hang the rapists first then castrate the insensitive dictator?
I am totally against Mushy`s remarks. But shouldn`t we hang the rapists first then castrate the insensitive dictator?
#100 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 3:56:33 pm
Tahmed Sahib,
Of course. Mushy better be miserable for the miserably stupid remark he made. I mean even without MukhtaraN Mai`s particular case of absolute cruelty imposed by a figure of authroity, a Panchayat and validated by a higher court, Lahore Court, Mushy`s remark would have been considered extremely stupid and irrational. The rape of MukhtaraN Mai just makes the remark even more insensitive, considering that she was NOT raped by a sserial rapist or an accepted criminal, but rather by ``honorable`` men of her own village, acting as executors of justice. What a shame?
Of course. Mushy better be miserable for the miserably stupid remark he made. I mean even without MukhtaraN Mai`s particular case of absolute cruelty imposed by a figure of authroity, a Panchayat and validated by a higher court, Lahore Court, Mushy`s remark would have been considered extremely stupid and irrational. The rape of MukhtaraN Mai just makes the remark even more insensitive, considering that she was NOT raped by a sserial rapist or an accepted criminal, but rather by ``honorable`` men of her own village, acting as executors of justice. What a shame?
#99 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 3:55:07 pm
Mr salim: mushy seems to have done quite well for a stupid man, i think.
#98 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 19, 2005 3:52:31 pm
#95, Tahmed Saheb,
I have said repeatedly that Mushy is totally guilty of at least stupidity and more probably insensitivity, ignorance, and speaking while brains are AWOL.
I have said repeatedly that Mushy is totally guilty of at least stupidity and more probably insensitivity, ignorance, and speaking while brains are AWOL.
#98 Posted by tahmed32 on September 19, 2005 3:52:33 pm
mr. salim: sorry to interrupt the altercation between you and mr t (but then, meddling is not against chowk guidelines).
musharaff`s misery?? you serious??
musharaff`s misery?? you serious??
#97 Posted by friend on September 19, 2005 3:50:51 pm
T-Saheb
Did you get up from wrong side of bed? Salim`s satire was a satire... Let us leave it at that. He says that he is changing his old ways. Let us keep watching him. There is nothing to be gained by asking for explanation about his old comments.
Regards
Did you get up from wrong side of bed? Salim`s satire was a satire... Let us leave it at that. He says that he is changing his old ways. Let us keep watching him. There is nothing to be gained by asking for explanation about his old comments.
Regards