Unfit For Command
Nighat Yasmeen September 20, 2005
#43 Posted by dullabhatti on September 21, 2005 9:50:03 am
Tahmed bhai, I understand your frustration with Ajeya and Arjun Makhanwala .....but it is disappointing to see that you have started reacting in the same way they do...they are bigots and narrow minded but what is your excuse to bring India and generalize all Indians just like they do to Paks?
Further, just because kulharee does not agree with you, you start accusing him of being Indian? My defense of kulharee would be akin to Paks supporitng or giving halla-sheri to ..say Farzana V..... Is that uncommon? I am only pointing out that he is Pakistani...trust me on that...now if due to your disagreement with him you still call him Indian or Pandit-hate that proves that any pakistani that does not agree with you is a traitor. Also by using the terms like Pandit-Hate, you are mirroring the terms used by people whom you accuse of being bigots.
Further, just because kulharee does not agree with you, you start accusing him of being Indian? My defense of kulharee would be akin to Paks supporitng or giving halla-sheri to ..say Farzana V..... Is that uncommon? I am only pointing out that he is Pakistani...trust me on that...now if due to your disagreement with him you still call him Indian or Pandit-hate that proves that any pakistani that does not agree with you is a traitor. Also by using the terms like Pandit-Hate, you are mirroring the terms used by people whom you accuse of being bigots.
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#42 Posted by tahmed32 on September 21, 2005 9:21:06 am
Mr. Chauhan: Glad to learn that all is well in the Great City of Constantine and the Golden Horn.
With respect to Mr t not condemning places outside pakistan where women have been similarly raped - I think it is safe to assume that he is as much appalled by those crimes as he is with the one in Pakistan. And in any case, if cursing could fix things, we on chowk would have probably have fixed everthing by now. But as they say, better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness - and, so as I said, all we can do on chowk is to voice our feeble exception to injustice.
Regarding the issue of whether you and I have been abused more by fellow pakistanis than by Indians - who cares, my friend. They can abuse all they like, but this says nothing about the supposed recipient of the abuse, and speaks volumes of the environment that has shaped the character of these individuals who write abusive language from the safety of the internet. And anyway, as is written on the tomb at Avon, ``sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.`` :-) Let us instead form our views on solid principles of right and wrong and on facts as best as we understand them. Thus, I remain fully in favor of good relations with India (despite the freaks we see on chowk) since that is the only sensible way to live with one`s neighbors. However, chowk has indicated a vast undercurrent of hatred for pakistanis and muslims and grudges for perceived wrongs of past centuries (!!) among educated indians - and this merely helps understand why Pakistan was founded as a separate nation. And why it needs to maintain its guard, and seek friendship only from a position of military parity.
Hope this makes sense.
With respect to Mr t not condemning places outside pakistan where women have been similarly raped - I think it is safe to assume that he is as much appalled by those crimes as he is with the one in Pakistan. And in any case, if cursing could fix things, we on chowk would have probably have fixed everthing by now. But as they say, better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness - and, so as I said, all we can do on chowk is to voice our feeble exception to injustice.
Regarding the issue of whether you and I have been abused more by fellow pakistanis than by Indians - who cares, my friend. They can abuse all they like, but this says nothing about the supposed recipient of the abuse, and speaks volumes of the environment that has shaped the character of these individuals who write abusive language from the safety of the internet. And anyway, as is written on the tomb at Avon, ``sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.`` :-) Let us instead form our views on solid principles of right and wrong and on facts as best as we understand them. Thus, I remain fully in favor of good relations with India (despite the freaks we see on chowk) since that is the only sensible way to live with one`s neighbors. However, chowk has indicated a vast undercurrent of hatred for pakistanis and muslims and grudges for perceived wrongs of past centuries (!!) among educated indians - and this merely helps understand why Pakistan was founded as a separate nation. And why it needs to maintain its guard, and seek friendship only from a position of military parity.
Hope this makes sense.
#41 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on September 21, 2005 8:54:04 am
Tahmed Sahib #34 {``you add `` I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment`` agreed. You continue ``and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda.`` Disagree. I dont think Mr. T has any political ax to grind. If he did, he would be not spend so much time on chowk.
...you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya. ``}
Tahmed Sahib, Slam Alaikum, :)
Things are just wonderful in that city of Constantine. :)
Sir, My point about Mr. T having a feast with the tragedy and injustice suffered by Pakistani women is his narrow focus of concern. He has yet to utter a single note of compassion for the rapes of Bengali women, of the rapes of Bosnian women, or the rapes of Muslim women by Muslim men in Darfur, Sudan. Yet, he doesn`t miss a single opportunity to shed his tears for the abuse of Pakistani women and then immediately blame everything on Mushy. I don`t want to defend any two-bit dictator, but I have a problem with insidious people ganging up on one person for any excuse just to advance their own agenda. A lot of people spend time on Chowk and that in itself is neither proof of honesty nor wickedness.
My friend, I think you misunderstood my point about the hatred of Paki-bashing Indians as compared to intra-Paki bashing. Both you and I are victims of this from such patriots as Khamkhwa, Atif, Dr. Israr Ahmed aka Atif, and a few others. In my case, you can add Faisaluno, Scout, Saminasha, Sobia, and a few more. I have received far more obscene and insulting hatred from them than from any Indian, with the exception of JG. Anyway, that has been my experience.
On a constructive note, I think that the best way to help achieve women`s rights is to dismantle gender segregation as much as possible. Once women have equal participation in the day-to-day life of Pakistan, men will stop seeing them as mere objects of vulnerability of their adversaries.
Have a wonderful evening.
...you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya. ``}
Tahmed Sahib, Slam Alaikum, :)
Things are just wonderful in that city of Constantine. :)
Sir, My point about Mr. T having a feast with the tragedy and injustice suffered by Pakistani women is his narrow focus of concern. He has yet to utter a single note of compassion for the rapes of Bengali women, of the rapes of Bosnian women, or the rapes of Muslim women by Muslim men in Darfur, Sudan. Yet, he doesn`t miss a single opportunity to shed his tears for the abuse of Pakistani women and then immediately blame everything on Mushy. I don`t want to defend any two-bit dictator, but I have a problem with insidious people ganging up on one person for any excuse just to advance their own agenda. A lot of people spend time on Chowk and that in itself is neither proof of honesty nor wickedness.
My friend, I think you misunderstood my point about the hatred of Paki-bashing Indians as compared to intra-Paki bashing. Both you and I are victims of this from such patriots as Khamkhwa, Atif, Dr. Israr Ahmed aka Atif, and a few others. In my case, you can add Faisaluno, Scout, Saminasha, Sobia, and a few more. I have received far more obscene and insulting hatred from them than from any Indian, with the exception of JG. Anyway, that has been my experience.
On a constructive note, I think that the best way to help achieve women`s rights is to dismantle gender segregation as much as possible. Once women have equal participation in the day-to-day life of Pakistan, men will stop seeing them as mere objects of vulnerability of their adversaries.
Have a wonderful evening.
#40 Posted by tahmed32 on September 21, 2005 8:27:56 am
arjun #39 Is that what you read into my post?? ha! ha! There is clearly no need for an inkblot test to demonstrate that you are a completely insane.
#39 Posted by arjun_m on September 21, 2005 7:45:59 am
Aww..prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek) is mad about the hateful indians who transform peace loving pakis into subway bombing jihadis...
pakis had no problem dishing it out all these years...now when their ass is getting deported en-masse because they`ve been supporting jihad , they`re claiming to be innocent victims...
pakis had no problem dishing it out all these years...now when their ass is getting deported en-masse because they`ve been supporting jihad , they`re claiming to be innocent victims...
#38 Posted by ballukhan on September 20, 2005 11:38:31 pm
Re: # 32
You are right on the spot..actually Mush has picked this up from the Paki elite circles...and he is convinced that much of it is true.....that is why he narrated this with conviction as if it is a very plausible explanation for the rapes.......................I had predicted that this fauzi rascal is going to form an alliance with the dominant cartel of business houses in Pakistan- the so called elites........obtain huge donations and support from them in order to assist them in creating hard entry conditions and barriers in their respective business domains............ensure that these cartels do not fact any competition...............favour them in government contracts................thereby kick up the Paki economy...................but ensure that the poor remain where they are..............ensure that the lower class pests remain enslaved in the farms..............ensure that the distribution of riches become even more skewed..............ensure that economy becomes a slave to his martial law politics...................I can predict that he is going to destroy not merely the economy of Pakistan when he goes unless and until he is replaced by another dictator who can continue these alliances...........I can predict that in the end he would ensure that the position of the women and poor worsens................
You are right on the spot..actually Mush has picked this up from the Paki elite circles...and he is convinced that much of it is true.....that is why he narrated this with conviction as if it is a very plausible explanation for the rapes.......................I had predicted that this fauzi rascal is going to form an alliance with the dominant cartel of business houses in Pakistan- the so called elites........obtain huge donations and support from them in order to assist them in creating hard entry conditions and barriers in their respective business domains............ensure that these cartels do not fact any competition...............favour them in government contracts................thereby kick up the Paki economy...................but ensure that the poor remain where they are..............ensure that the lower class pests remain enslaved in the farms..............ensure that the distribution of riches become even more skewed..............ensure that economy becomes a slave to his martial law politics...................I can predict that he is going to destroy not merely the economy of Pakistan when he goes unless and until he is replaced by another dictator who can continue these alliances...........I can predict that in the end he would ensure that the position of the women and poor worsens................
#37 Posted by tahmed32 on September 20, 2005 7:20:14 pm
#35 Even if one counts only the muhajirs (6 million), 1000 times that is still 6 billion!! This kind of exaggeration can only be Made in India, consistent with the other nonsense one reads on chowk from Great Indian Thinkers like Arjun and Ajeya. And while he claims to be Pakistani, kulharee betrays who he is by doing the Pandit-Hate-speak (e.g. being incapable of referring to muslims without adding some ridicule to it; talking big about India as if it is USA-east when in fact the rest of the world is just happy that it is getting out of what had become a joke among development economists, namely the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4%).
And why, may I ask, is it so important for you to defend the Pandit-Hates of India? I dont see pakistanis jumping to defend urstruly or echoboom when they start ranting.
And why, may I ask, is it so important for you to defend the Pandit-Hates of India? I dont see pakistanis jumping to defend urstruly or echoboom when they start ranting.
#36 Posted by dullabhatti on September 20, 2005 3:17:02 pm
guys, I think it was Bertrand Russel who said India lives in many centuries at the same time or something to that effect...Unfortunately it will be true for India and its by producst for a very very long time. I can imagine when 100 years from now we have a maglev trains running between Rawalpindi and New Delhi, our great grand kids when they visit to see their ancestoral homeland will be able to spot, TaTTi and half naked men and women below the railway tracks....and although maglev will not stop at faaTaks, they will be able to se Rickshaws being driver by dhoti clad men on streets crossing below the tracks....and they won`t be able to tell when they crossed the border.:)
#35 Posted by dullabhatti on September 20, 2005 3:03:04 pm
#33, to be fair Kulharee said, 1000 times more stayed than migrate to Pakistan...he is exaggerating but his basic premise that more muslims on what was to be India on Aug 16/47 stayed behind than move to Pakistan. To make it simple it is ratio of all muslims in India which is 140million divided by Mohajirs in Pakistan. in 1947 terms, approximately 6 million crossed to pakistan while some 30-40 million stayed.
secondly it may be unpleasant for you to accept but he is a Pakistani..as pure and authentic as you. So I suggest you say whatever to him, it is your right but atleast don`t call him Indian...would you like to be called Indian? ..I know answer is No.:):) so why insult poor kulharee;)
secondly it may be unpleasant for you to accept but he is a Pakistani..as pure and authentic as you. So I suggest you say whatever to him, it is your right but atleast don`t call him Indian...would you like to be called Indian? ..I know answer is No.:):) so why insult poor kulharee;)
#34 Posted by tahmed32 on September 20, 2005 2:59:55 pm
Mr. Salim: you write : Idon`t agree with Temporal, though, that rape is a cornerstone of the military dictatorship`s domestic policy.`` If Mr. T said that, then I agree that he went too far. Not seeing the exact quote of what he said, I shall reserve further comment.
you add `` I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment`` agreed. You continue ``and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda.`` Disagree. I dont think Mr. T has any political ax to grind. If he did, he would be not spend so much time on chowk.
you add: ``As far as relations with India are concerned, I am hopeful.`` Agreed. The only sensible way to live is in peace.
you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya.
Anyway, wish you a good evening too, Mr. Chauhan. Hope all is well in Qustuntuniya. :-)
you add `` I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment`` agreed. You continue ``and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda.`` Disagree. I dont think Mr. T has any political ax to grind. If he did, he would be not spend so much time on chowk.
you add: ``As far as relations with India are concerned, I am hopeful.`` Agreed. The only sensible way to live is in peace.
you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya.
Anyway, wish you a good evening too, Mr. Chauhan. Hope all is well in Qustuntuniya. :-)
#33 Posted by tahmed32 on September 20, 2005 2:50:50 pm
Kulharee: FIrst, you can stop pretending you are a Pakistani. Pandit-Hates-in-Disguise can be spotted a mile away, and are about the only specimen on earth who are more pathetic than the Pandit-Hates.
Second, get your facts straight. A 1000 times more muslims in India than Pakistan means there are 1.5 billion Indians in India.
Third, stop avoiding unpleasant facts - like the cesspool that is India when it comes to the plight of women (as I mentioned in my previous post).
Second, get your facts straight. A 1000 times more muslims in India than Pakistan means there are 1.5 billion Indians in India.
Third, stop avoiding unpleasant facts - like the cesspool that is India when it comes to the plight of women (as I mentioned in my previous post).
#32 Posted by arjun_m on September 20, 2005 2:08:20 pm
#29 by thetinkler on September 20, 2005 1:30pm PT
It is always easy to criticize.We must put ourselves in Mushaaraf`s shoes, trying , hard as he is , to transform his society.He wants , i assume , to put his best `foot` forward
He did put his best foot forward...right into his mouth...
This isn`t just some Dan Quayle Potatoe moment...I`m guessing the paki elite circles actually believes what he said...
It is always easy to criticize.We must put ourselves in Mushaaraf`s shoes, trying , hard as he is , to transform his society.He wants , i assume , to put his best `foot` forward
He did put his best foot forward...right into his mouth...
This isn`t just some Dan Quayle Potatoe moment...I`m guessing the paki elite circles actually believes what he said...
#31 Posted by dullabhatti on September 20, 2005 1:54:35 pm
Kulharee: tere jaise Indian loag yahaN aa kar Pakistan ka naam badnam kartay hain...I knew it from day one you are an Indian troll;) lekin kulharee achhi chalate ho:)
#30 Posted by Kulharee on September 20, 2005 1:42:58 pm
Re: # 25
>>>>>If you people really were concerned about the plight of women - you would look at the cesspool that exists in India - a cesspool of greed - where brides are burnt to death in the tens of thousands every year in order to make room for a second one with dowry; where parents kill their unborn daughters with the help of doctors who abuse their access to modern technology to identify the gender of the unborn - to the extent of there being a deficit of available females for marriage to the tune of 25 million in just the delhi/haryana area alone according to one article i read in a US paper.<<<<<<
also # 26
>>>>Salim: that is a good point you make in #21 about the real wrong-doing on the part of the musharaff government being that of trying to prevent mukhtar mai from speaking out. as for you earlier point about relations with india, i think anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk would understand why Pakistan was founded. <<<<<
Tahmed32,,, what would looking towards India do? Would doing so make Pakistan look better? You really think that calling someone Hindu or Indian is an insult? 1000 times more Muslims decided to stay in India than to go to Pak; do you mean to imply that they all live in a cesspool? Perhaps you should check out the male-female ratio of Pakistan as well..and here’s a news for you: it is pretty much the same as it is in India – that means that female infanticide is as prevalent in Pakistan as much as it is in India. Or you might actually believe that Muslim pricks produce only male offspring? One thing is becoming so obvious however, that India is the gauge that some Pakistanis judge their own country by. Please look towards Rwanda or Uganda or some other basketcase and don’t belittle India by comparing it to Pakistan. Thank you and god bless.
>>>>>If you people really were concerned about the plight of women - you would look at the cesspool that exists in India - a cesspool of greed - where brides are burnt to death in the tens of thousands every year in order to make room for a second one with dowry; where parents kill their unborn daughters with the help of doctors who abuse their access to modern technology to identify the gender of the unborn - to the extent of there being a deficit of available females for marriage to the tune of 25 million in just the delhi/haryana area alone according to one article i read in a US paper.<<<<<<
also # 26
>>>>Salim: that is a good point you make in #21 about the real wrong-doing on the part of the musharaff government being that of trying to prevent mukhtar mai from speaking out. as for you earlier point about relations with india, i think anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk would understand why Pakistan was founded. <<<<<
Tahmed32,,, what would looking towards India do? Would doing so make Pakistan look better? You really think that calling someone Hindu or Indian is an insult? 1000 times more Muslims decided to stay in India than to go to Pak; do you mean to imply that they all live in a cesspool? Perhaps you should check out the male-female ratio of Pakistan as well..and here’s a news for you: it is pretty much the same as it is in India – that means that female infanticide is as prevalent in Pakistan as much as it is in India. Or you might actually believe that Muslim pricks produce only male offspring? One thing is becoming so obvious however, that India is the gauge that some Pakistanis judge their own country by. Please look towards Rwanda or Uganda or some other basketcase and don’t belittle India by comparing it to Pakistan. Thank you and god bless.
#29 Posted by thetinkler on September 20, 2005 1:30:59 pm
It is always easy to criticize.We must put ourselves in Mushaaraf`s shoes, trying , hard as he is , to transform his society.He wants , i assume , to put his best `foot` forward and doesn`t appreciate situations that get adverse publicity such as Mai`s.He is clearly upset by the failure of those espousing Mai`s cause to soft-peddle the issue.I guess, that`s why he`s lashing out, `cause he has nothing to lose.
#28 Posted by wiseguyin on September 20, 2005 11:49:05 am
> anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk
> would understand why Pakistan was founded...
Hmmm. Seems like every Indian hates Pukees. [Except of course our beloved muslim bros
who have a soft corner for them.]
And of course, the RoW hates Muslims in general. Because, as is well known, Muslims are the
best people in the world. And all of us are jealous of them because they are ahead of us all.
And of course, they posess the truth in their book, which came straight from His mouth. Arrey
I am talking about HIM. You know na... the one whose name must not be taken .... (abey not Voldermort).
Muslims wanted to be love and be loved here in India; the wicked brahmins (Sikhs too ?)
drove them away. The remaining muslims suffer so much in India.... thank god for the land
of the pure.
Sigh ,,,, that gentle cult ..........
Neways, I digress.
But I do agree that the situation here in India isn`t exactly 1st world. And as tahmed32
rightly points out we have a lot of ground to cover too. With regard to Haryana, It is indeed
true that there is a shortage of brides because of female infanticide. And the jats now
have to go to places like MP for brides. But I think the figure of 25 million is kinda bloated.
But the stupid Punjabi and Jats are getting there just deserts. By the way, this phenomenon
seems to be prevalent in the north west of india only. Out here in Chennai, there seems to
be a glut of girls. Not that I am complainig .....
regards,
SN
> would understand why Pakistan was founded...
Hmmm. Seems like every Indian hates Pukees. [Except of course our beloved muslim bros
who have a soft corner for them.]
And of course, the RoW hates Muslims in general. Because, as is well known, Muslims are the
best people in the world. And all of us are jealous of them because they are ahead of us all.
And of course, they posess the truth in their book, which came straight from His mouth. Arrey
I am talking about HIM. You know na... the one whose name must not be taken .... (abey not Voldermort).
Muslims wanted to be love and be loved here in India; the wicked brahmins (Sikhs too ?)
drove them away. The remaining muslims suffer so much in India.... thank god for the land
of the pure.
Sigh ,,,, that gentle cult ..........
Neways, I digress.
But I do agree that the situation here in India isn`t exactly 1st world. And as tahmed32
rightly points out we have a lot of ground to cover too. With regard to Haryana, It is indeed
true that there is a shortage of brides because of female infanticide. And the jats now
have to go to places like MP for brides. But I think the figure of 25 million is kinda bloated.
But the stupid Punjabi and Jats are getting there just deserts. By the way, this phenomenon
seems to be prevalent in the north west of india only. Out here in Chennai, there seems to
be a glut of girls. Not that I am complainig .....
regards,
SN
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