Unfit For Command

Re: # 74

How can you invite European or American rape victims to Pakistan if their passports are confiscated with restrictions of their travel abroad? Do you think Pakistan is the only country that does it?

Also, Pakis would bend backwards to internationalize fictional “Rapes of Kashmiri women at the hands of Indian Army”.

Talk about head in the ass.

yasmeen,

it seems you are blowing hot and cold in the same breath. you have yourself mentioned in your article that nothing has happened to Dr. A. Q. Khan as the president ensured the same. isn`t that good? we are still trying to recover from the embarrassment caused as a result of aimal kasi`s illegal extradition..........all thanks to a civilian, elected government.

as for the issue of mukhtaran mai. why should she be permitted to go abroad in the first place? tell me, why hasn`t any pakistani NGO invited a rape victim from the united states or united kingdom or europe for a talk in pakistan. in fact inviting other country`s rape victims for talks would at least enlighten us on the treatment received by them by law enforcing agencies and other NGOs in the so-called west. think for a moment.............what is mukhtaran mai`s agenda?

#71, {``And Mr. Chauhan, i am glad you passed the geography test on karachi administered by Grand Inquisitor khamkhwa. .. regarding of whether kulharee is a self-loathing pakistani or a pandit-hate pretending to be a self-loathing pakistani - let us just agree to disagree.``}

Tahmed Sahib,
Le Grand Inquisiteur Monsieour Khamkhwa. LOL :)

Sir, what say you about a DNA test of the Axeman? Now that he has invoked Mohtarma Umaro Jan Adaa of Faizabad, Oudh fame.

Re: # 71

Tahmed32 Sahib, my maternal great grandma was a resident of Hira Mandi Lahore, and her real name was MiraN Bai Mahendergath Wali (Mahendergath is in Haryana) and we refer to her as Marilyn Monroe with affection. The legend has it that she was a Rakhel (girlfriend) of my Tharkee (horny) great grandpa and he got her pregnant when she was only 9. Then my grandma Umrao Jan Adaa came into the world who married into a very prominent family of northern Punjab (Nawab of Kalabagh family, if you must know) and then after that the history is a little murky, as all my male ancestors (from paternal side) were playboys and drunks and Allah knows how many girls they screwed around with. I feel that I have a little bit of every possible DNA of North Indian tribes. I hope that it makes me Pakistani enough for you to consider me a Pakistani. I will be eternally grateful to you if you bestowed the title of “Pakistani” on me. I am not suggesting that I wont still be ashamed of it. I sure will be. Please don`t call me Indian, Your Lord, I am not worthy of it.

party goes on while i was away, i see.

lets see where the discussion is at now:

kulharee`s great grandma was Marilyn Monroe!! Now I understand why he has been hopping like a ``Cat on A Hot Tin Roof``.

And Mr. Chauhan, i am glad you passed the geography test on karachi administered by Grand Inquisitor khamkhwa. My own knowledge of karachi geography begins and ends with the space between the Arrivals section of Karachi airport to the Departure lounge.

Mr. Dullabhatti sahab and Janab barkhoodaar Salim: regarding of whether kulharee is a self-loathing pakistani or a pandit-hate pretending to be a self-loathing pakistani - let us just agree to disagree.

#69, Dullah Bhai,
Where were the Kennedy Brothers when Ghaznavi was cheating on Ayaz with Marilyn?

Salim, don`t confuse yourself too much with Kulharee`s claims...Kulharee`s paRh-daadi was called Marilyn Monroe in the whole village for some reasons which I don`t want to disclose here... ...believe me looks was not one of the reasons.

tu meri main tera, toRh wichhoRiN naaa
alaRh pune wich layeaN wekhiN toRhi na.
tu meri main tera..

#67, {``with lineage back to Marilyn Monroe and Ghaznavi, ``}

Kulharee Sahib,
You are pulling my leg, right? :)
I mean Marilyn Monroe! - and all this time I thought that Mahmud was loyal to Ayaz. :)

Re: # 66

Chauhan Sahib,

The famous Pakistani Rajput tribes in my part of Punjab are: Tiwana, Majouka, Bhatti, Chauhan, Wattu, and Noon, etc. These are not the same as Jat tribes, that are also in plenty in my part of Punjab (Waraich, Awan, etc… ). However sometimes these are classified as either/or.

I happen to be an Animist and Qutbshahi with lineage back to Marilyn Monroe and Ghaznavi, which makes me a little bit better Pakistani than you, but apparently not as good as my buddy tahmed32, who is Qureshi.

Peace.

#65, Tahmed Sahib,

To continue with my last message, I must remind you that statlwart, sons of the soil like Mr. Khamkhwa even administered a pop geography quiz to me concerning locations and distances in Karachi. I passed this test, something that Mr. Temporal would have easily failed thanks to his singular dexterity in matters of geography. Since then Khamkhwa has stopped questioning my Pakistani credentials - now he just calls me Mir Jaffer. Little does he realize that Mir Jaffer committed treason against India and not Pakistan. :)
Peace.

Tahmed Sahib #55,

Sir, it is not very often that I take a position contrary to yours. In the case of Kulharee Sahib, may I recommend that we all take him at his word? After all, he is merely claiming to be a Pakistani and not Swiss or Costa Rican or Swedish or Finnish - countries whose citizens are rightfully proud of any bragging rights.

I say this because I myself have been a victim of doubt from people such as Khamkhwa and Temporal. Both of them have questioned by religious identity, my ethnic background, my nationality, my previous nationality, and even my domicile.

I guess they would really respect me more if I had said that I was a Sunni Sayyad, Pakistani and a direct descendant of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), with my ancestors coming directly from the sands of Arabia to the fertile city of Lahore. Why would any Pakistani be proud of being a napaak Rajput in the Land of the Pure? Why would one admit to being Shia in the land of Sunnis? Why would one want to be Turk when being an Arab or a Pathan is more impressive?

Why would anyone claim to be a Pakistani if it were not true?

Submitted with all humility and sincerity.

Re: # 62

Miriamk. Not only is the road not smooth, it has a steep rock on one side and a 100000 feet ditch on the other, and there is no fence either to prevent a caravan from falling. The democrats in Pakistan tend to believe that it will solve all problems of the country, and that view is no different from the anarchist or those who think dictatorship or a theocratic state is the answer. The only system that may ever be successful in cases like Pakistan is provincial autonomy tied only by a lose confederation, and let everyone have their own little form of what they want (including Mullahism) – the result of such a structure will be (Inshallah) similar to what happened to Yugoslavia, and I am sure it will please a lot of people. I am all for it (not that it matters), and I hope unlike the Greece`s objection to Macedonia, Sikhs wont object to a country called Punjab.

Bhatti Sahib… I am your Kulharee, and you are my Gandasa.

miriam #62, {`` think you may be adding 2 and 2 and getting 5 here. ..
... If you keep halting it and instituting a dictatorship every time there’s corruption, we’ll never get there. But by all means improve the system of checks and balances so there are consequences to corruption.

Miriam,
Actually I added 2 and 2 and came up with 4.5 :) I apologize for the slight exaggeration.

Each time the four prime ministerships were interrupted was a case of the country going to the dogs. There was violence, rampant corruption, and military called in by these ``civilian`` dictators to shoot their own people in the streets of Pakistan`s largest city. The last time, Nawaz Sharif knew no bounds. He was firing people left and right and trying to turn a huge mandate into a unanimous one for his perpetual rule. ZAB was guilty of similar violations when he rigged his election, which he would have easily won failry anyway.

Your idea about checks and balances is a good one. Now, who will enforce these checks and balances? The military?

salim:
#59

This gives the appearance that he may actually look forward to more rapes just so that he can put the final nails in Mushy`s coffin..

I think you may be adding 2 and 2 and getting 5 here. But I did want to clarify the earlier comment, so thanks for the explanation.

And regarding the corrupt governments of benazir et al, of course I concur. But as an extremely wise friend of mine pointed out to me, when I said a similar thing some months ago. The road to democracy is seldom smooth, especially for countries like Pakistan. Let the people decide; hold elections, have a vote. Pakistan has to learn its way into a democracy. If you keep halting it and instituting a dictatorship every time there’s corruption, we’ll never get there. But by all means improve the system of checks and balances so there are consequences to corruption.

miriam

Typing haraami with one ``a`` after ``r`` got it highlighted....eh Chowk censorship baRhi burger ay;)

Tahmed baba, for the last time....no has ever won a Nobel Prize or dinner for 2 at McDonalds on Chowk for winning an argument but for the sake of sayign it once again that what I am saying is truth....too bad he is thorn in the but but he is a Pakistani...if you say he is a haraami and kanjar of first class I will agree with you...he is the biggest lucha you will find on...ahem..your side of the border:-) ..emphasis is on `your side of the border`.:-)

I understadn you disagree with his views....no problem with that....what you do based on that is wrong...you call him Indian because his views don`t fit streotypical Pak views. Thats all. aggay tusi bazurg te siyane O.

Miriam #58,
Of course Temporal did not come right out and say that rape is a cornerstone of the military dictatorship`s policy. My statement was a sarcastic observation of Temporal`s eagerness to capitalize on almost anything that goes wrong in Pakistan and use it to present a case for restoration of ``democracy.`` If you have been following the unfortunately too many recent cases of highly-publicized rapes, Mr. Temporal is usually at the forefront of demonstrating, pontificating, and inciting a hate campaign against Mushy. This gives the appearance that he may actually look forward to more rapes just so that he can put the final nails in Mushy`s coffin.

Now, I agree with you that we all want democracy everywhere, including Pakistan. Unfortunatley, ``democracy`` in Pakistan would mean either a return to the oligarchy of the past or a new theorcracy a la Tally Ban. I hope you have the honesty to admit that there were more abuses of power, more nepotism, more oppression, less liberty, and more suppression of free speech under Benazir and Nawaz Sharif and ZAB than under Musharraf nowadays. Unless, we can see a clear rule of law under civilian rule, most practical people prefer this benign dictatorship.

Thanks for your appreciation of my views regarding gender segregation.

I apprecaite and honor your viewpoint.

Salim:
#27

I don`t agree with Temporal, though, that rape is a cornerstone of the military dictatorship`s domestic policy.

I’m curious. Where exactly did you pick that up from temporal? One only has to take a cursory glance at his interacts to know where he stands on women’s issues. He certainly has no love loss with the army (neither do many of us) but I have never known him to imply what you suggest. Words are a serious matter for some of us. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attributing to others (even if you dislike them) ideas or phrases without a reference/link to the exact post. Thanks.

And regarding the “insidious political agenda” of “people such as Temporal”; I guess that would be the one where they want an end to dictatorship and open the road for democracy in pakistan. You disagree with this salim?

On a final note, I do very much agree with this statement of yours:

….I think that the best way to help achieve women`s rights is to dismantle gender segregation as much as possible. Once women have equal participation in the day-to-day life of Pakistan,… (#41)

best,
miriam

kulharee,

your profile says something about you being from a religious minority. i wouldn`t worry too much about what some people say or defend being pakistani. believe me i`ve come across ``you`re an indian`` or ``self-hating pakistani`` remarks myself when i say things that are perceived as anti-national. . . and regardless of whether you are pakistani or not, these chachas and babas like to put everyone in one neat box, abdul-hates or pandit-hates, while ignoring what`s in their own hearts and minds.

and the beat goes on. . . .

Re: # 55

My mentally challenged friend tahmed32, Do I have to win a Nobel Prize to convince you that I am a Pakistani (just to piss you off, I am not going to win one). As you yourself mentioned that I am not smart enough, so I guess I can’t do either (convince you or win a Nobel Prize). But I have a Pakistani Passport, it says both my citizenship and religion (alhamdullilah, it says I am a Muslim Pakistani – did cost me a whopping 200 dollars – it’s a bit too much if you ask me. For that much I wana be a Wahabi).

dullbhatti #54 I protest!! Now you are letting out our national secrets (i.e. by revealing that 9/10th of our army boys are dumb)!! :-)

On the nationality of Mr. Kulharee, you can dress up a bakra in a suit but he will still give himself away by saying ``ba-a-a-a`` rather than ``good morning``. I have collected a few of the ``ba-a-a-a`` from kulharee for your convenience:

post number #30 ``Perhaps you should check out the male-female ratio of Pakistan as well..and here’s a news for you: it is pretty much the same as it is in India – that means that female infanticide is as prevalent in Pakistan as much as it is in India.``

If he was Pakistani, he would realize that while we have other issues (like the rape cases), large scale female infanticide is not one of them.

post #44 ``yes I am a Pakistani (not very proud of it, but I have no choice, I was born with it`` This statement reflects the common myth that Pandit-Hates try to spread that Pakistanis are ashamed of their nationality or feel bad about being Pakistanis.

also same post ``if you are a non-Muslim (constitutionally that is), you can be persecuted for saying Asalam-o-Lakum to someone. Your Passport is the way for you to find out what religion you belong to. I feel so bad for Pakistanis that don’t have passports. They don’t know what religion they belong to. It’s really very sad``

This again betrays ignorance of Pakistan - most Pakistanis are very pleased (as most people are) if someone greets them in their own language. This again is a myth of the Indian ``experts`` on Pakistan (who have never stepped inside that country), i.e. the Pandit-Hates.

I could go on. But if these indications of ``ba-a-a-a`` from a Pandit-Hate claiming to be a pakistani dont convince you, nothing will. I dont blame you though - if I was an Indian with self-respect (as you are), I too would find it difficult to acknowledge anything in common with the kind of Pandit-Hate freaks that show up on chowk. Pakistanis quarrel among themselves, hold all sorts of opinions from extreme right to extreme left - but they dont have this one-track mind of of obsession with insulting other people`s religions or nationalities that is the trademark of the Pandit-Hates who come to chowk.

tahmed sahib...ki kahaN main hun...your solution to everything is...``re-read my earlier posts``. why one can be a Pakistani only due to certain reasons as you list? do you believe one has to satisfy certain conditions to be a Pakistani?..I was laughing when I read you calling Kulharee not smart enough to be one....when did it become a condition being smart to be any thing, forget being Pakistani? you know if that was a condition 9/10th of your army will automatically become Indian.:-)

dullbhatti #43 i am sorry but i have to disagree on kulharee - please see the post i wrote earlier and the reasons i indicated.

my use of the term pandit-hate is accurate and obviously does not apply to all indians. only those who are incapable of writing anything other berating pakistanis or muslims while thumping their own chest trying to act (as i said) that india is USA-east, ignoring the cesspool that is the plight of women in india (as i mentioned). surely this should be obvious enough to you, if you re-read my earlier posts.


in any case, despite our disagrement on this point, let me use this opportunity to express my appreciation for your interesting posts on chowk written in a fine, gentlemanlike manner.

mr. kulharee #44 You are not smart enough to pass as a pakistani. anyone who tries to be what he is not on chowk is by definition to stupid to get away with it. trust me. dullabhatti likes to think you are a pakistani, but he did that by ignoring the reasons i provided. so have a nice day. maybe if you are really good in this life, in your next incarnation you will get your wish and be born a pakistani.

Salim: while i thank you for the nice remarks, they are indeed unmerited. and in this i agree for once with my loyal campfollower, mr. mohar, in whom they obviously caused great agony causing him to erupt in his usual elegant style that we have all come to know and admire.

as for who is a nice guy - i think chowk posts are not enough evidence of that. as far as i am concerned, all chowkies are nice guys in real life: its just that some are so damned stupid that one does not wish to waste precious chowk time on them, except maybe to have a bit of fun. :-)

Re: # 49

True...It`s all relative...

Mohar #47 {``we know you have had rough times with pakis in here and we sympathize with that - but you don`t have to sing paeans to this jacka$$.... :))) ``}

Mohar,
It is a concentration camp syndrome. I heard that prison guards who tortured the inmates were considered evil. Those that just hit them now and then were considered kind, and those who gave them food, water, and compassion were thought to be angels of mercy. :)

It`s all relative. He is much nicer than the really bad ones - Faisaluno, Atif, Temporal, and so on.

If u know how to read urdu, read this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/miscellaneous/story/2005/09/050921_manzur_anger.shtml

Mushy pees in his pants in front of white or black masters/mistress from USA/UK, but in front of his own brown suboordinates, he just refuses to listen.

Re: # 45
//...are a tribute to Punjab, to Pakistan, to Islam, and to humanity....//

ClosetMullah32 is a ``tribute`` to humanity??....Get a grip on yourself....we know you have had rough times with pakis in here and we sympathize with that - but you don`t have to sing paeans to this jacka$$.... :)))

Kulharee Sahib #44, {``and yes I am a Pakistani (not very proud of it, but I have no choice, I was born with it ...``}

Kulharee Bhai (Dear Axeman! :) )

If you say you are Pakistani, I believe you. After all, there was much speculation about my credentials and even today people have their doubts about my origins, my ethnicity, my religion, my citizenship, my domicile, and even my martial status. When certain people can`t debate or discuss serious matters successfully, they resort to personal insults, abuse of spouses and other family members, questions regarding legality of one`s birth, and so on. You know you have succeeded with these imbeciles once you have degraded them into such a state. They have conceded victory to your point of view by descending into the domain of the illiterate and the backward. You must agree that rednecks, ganNwars, fools, idiots, and the uneducated can only discuss things at the most basic level. ``Where`s he from?`` ``What`s his relijjun?`` ``Is he one of `em?`` ``Did you see his hooked nose?`` ``Where does he live?`` ``Did his parents ever get married?`` and so on.

Be who you are and stick to issues, positions, facts, and viewpoints. Let the professional anthropologists and sociologists of Chowk worry about basic human identifications. What I am really saying is that we should ignore such personally inquisitive people.

Tahmed Sahib #42, {``Thus, I remain fully in favor of good relations with India (despite the freaks we see on chowk) since that is the only sensible way to live with one`s neighbors``}

Well said, Sir. Let`s hope that one day, Inshallah, we have true friendship and real peace with our important neighbor and relative to the east. Ameen.

On the issue of intra-Pak hatreds on Chowk, I have seriously reached the conclusion that, in general, Indians tend to be more tolerant and laissez-faire than many people from Pakistan, especially when it comes to tolerance for dissent among their own. Through all the cruel and abusive treatment I have received at the hands of some Pakis on Chowk, only you and a handful of other fellow Pakistanis have stood up for fairness. Almost all demonstration of kindness, support for fairness, and concern for my life (on Chowk :) ) has been limited to Indians - even the most anti-Paki ones.

And that is why I really appreciate your genuine and sincere record of objectivity. You are a tribute to Punjab, to Pakistan, to Islam, and to humanity. One should be able to point at you as a unique exception to the general environment of hatred and prejudice.

Thanks,

Re: # 43

Bhatti Sahib, thanks for clarifying my position, and yes I am a Pakistani (not very proud of it, but I have no choice, I was born with it, just like my statistically challenged friend Tahmed32 is a born Paki, may be he is not as ashamed of it as I am). If you ask me, Pakistanis are a walking talking contradiction… our leader wanted an “Islamic Republic” while he enjoyed his Scotch and ate Ham. Meanwhile, if you are a non-Muslim (constitutionally that is), you can be persecuted for saying Asalam-o-Lakum to someone. Your Passport is the way for you to find out what religion you belong to. I feel so bad for Pakistanis that don’t have passports. They don’t know what religion they belong to. It’s really very sad.

Tahmed32 Sahib, where I live (on earth that is) 1000 times is an expression of speech implying “a lot by comparison”, just like a Pakistani mom saying to her kid “oye Ullu Kay Kan, Hazar dafa kaha hey key Sher ki dhoi maiN ungal mat dou” (translation: Oye stupid kid, I have told you a 1000 times not to ram your finger up a lion’s butt”). Does it make any sense now?

Tahmed bhai, I understand your frustration with Ajeya and Arjun Makhanwala .....but it is disappointing to see that you have started reacting in the same way they do...they are bigots and narrow minded but what is your excuse to bring India and generalize all Indians just like they do to Paks?
Further, just because kulharee does not agree with you, you start accusing him of being Indian? My defense of kulharee would be akin to Paks supporitng or giving halla-sheri to ..say Farzana V..... Is that uncommon? I am only pointing out that he is Pakistani...trust me on that...now if due to your disagreement with him you still call him Indian or Pandit-hate that proves that any pakistani that does not agree with you is a traitor. Also by using the terms like Pandit-Hate, you are mirroring the terms used by people whom you accuse of being bigots.

Mr. Chauhan: Glad to learn that all is well in the Great City of Constantine and the Golden Horn.

With respect to Mr t not condemning places outside pakistan where women have been similarly raped - I think it is safe to assume that he is as much appalled by those crimes as he is with the one in Pakistan. And in any case, if cursing could fix things, we on chowk would have probably have fixed everthing by now. But as they say, better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness - and, so as I said, all we can do on chowk is to voice our feeble exception to injustice.

Regarding the issue of whether you and I have been abused more by fellow pakistanis than by Indians - who cares, my friend. They can abuse all they like, but this says nothing about the supposed recipient of the abuse, and speaks volumes of the environment that has shaped the character of these individuals who write abusive language from the safety of the internet. And anyway, as is written on the tomb at Avon, ``sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.`` :-) Let us instead form our views on solid principles of right and wrong and on facts as best as we understand them. Thus, I remain fully in favor of good relations with India (despite the freaks we see on chowk) since that is the only sensible way to live with one`s neighbors. However, chowk has indicated a vast undercurrent of hatred for pakistanis and muslims and grudges for perceived wrongs of past centuries (!!) among educated indians - and this merely helps understand why Pakistan was founded as a separate nation. And why it needs to maintain its guard, and seek friendship only from a position of military parity.

Hope this makes sense.

Tahmed Sahib #34 {``you add `` I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment`` agreed. You continue ``and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda.`` Disagree. I dont think Mr. T has any political ax to grind. If he did, he would be not spend so much time on chowk.
...you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya. ``}

Tahmed Sahib, Slam Alaikum, :)
Things are just wonderful in that city of Constantine. :)
Sir, My point about Mr. T having a feast with the tragedy and injustice suffered by Pakistani women is his narrow focus of concern. He has yet to utter a single note of compassion for the rapes of Bengali women, of the rapes of Bosnian women, or the rapes of Muslim women by Muslim men in Darfur, Sudan. Yet, he doesn`t miss a single opportunity to shed his tears for the abuse of Pakistani women and then immediately blame everything on Mushy. I don`t want to defend any two-bit dictator, but I have a problem with insidious people ganging up on one person for any excuse just to advance their own agenda. A lot of people spend time on Chowk and that in itself is neither proof of honesty nor wickedness.

My friend, I think you misunderstood my point about the hatred of Paki-bashing Indians as compared to intra-Paki bashing. Both you and I are victims of this from such patriots as Khamkhwa, Atif, Dr. Israr Ahmed aka Atif, and a few others. In my case, you can add Faisaluno, Scout, Saminasha, Sobia, and a few more. I have received far more obscene and insulting hatred from them than from any Indian, with the exception of JG. Anyway, that has been my experience.

On a constructive note, I think that the best way to help achieve women`s rights is to dismantle gender segregation as much as possible. Once women have equal participation in the day-to-day life of Pakistan, men will stop seeing them as mere objects of vulnerability of their adversaries.

Have a wonderful evening.

arjun #39 Is that what you read into my post?? ha! ha! There is clearly no need for an inkblot test to demonstrate that you are a completely insane.

Aww..prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek) is mad about the hateful indians who transform peace loving pakis into subway bombing jihadis...

pakis had no problem dishing it out all these years...now when their ass is getting deported en-masse because they`ve been supporting jihad , they`re claiming to be innocent victims...

Re: # 32

You are right on the spot..actually Mush has picked this up from the Paki elite circles...and he is convinced that much of it is true.....that is why he narrated this with conviction as if it is a very plausible explanation for the rapes.......................I had predicted that this fauzi rascal is going to form an alliance with the dominant cartel of business houses in Pakistan- the so called elites........obtain huge donations and support from them in order to assist them in creating hard entry conditions and barriers in their respective business domains............ensure that these cartels do not fact any competition...............favour them in government contracts................thereby kick up the Paki economy...................but ensure that the poor remain where they are..............ensure that the lower class pests remain enslaved in the farms..............ensure that the distribution of riches become even more skewed..............ensure that economy becomes a slave to his martial law politics...................I can predict that he is going to destroy not merely the economy of Pakistan when he goes unless and until he is replaced by another dictator who can continue these alliances...........I can predict that in the end he would ensure that the position of the women and poor worsens................

#35 Even if one counts only the muhajirs (6 million), 1000 times that is still 6 billion!! This kind of exaggeration can only be Made in India, consistent with the other nonsense one reads on chowk from Great Indian Thinkers like Arjun and Ajeya. And while he claims to be Pakistani, kulharee betrays who he is by doing the Pandit-Hate-speak (e.g. being incapable of referring to muslims without adding some ridicule to it; talking big about India as if it is USA-east when in fact the rest of the world is just happy that it is getting out of what had become a joke among development economists, namely the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4%).

And why, may I ask, is it so important for you to defend the Pandit-Hates of India? I dont see pakistanis jumping to defend urstruly or echoboom when they start ranting.

guys, I think it was Bertrand Russel who said India lives in many centuries at the same time or something to that effect...Unfortunately it will be true for India and its by producst for a very very long time. I can imagine when 100 years from now we have a maglev trains running between Rawalpindi and New Delhi, our great grand kids when they visit to see their ancestoral homeland will be able to spot, TaTTi and half naked men and women below the railway tracks....and although maglev will not stop at faaTaks, they will be able to se Rickshaws being driver by dhoti clad men on streets crossing below the tracks....and they won`t be able to tell when they crossed the border.:)

#33, to be fair Kulharee said, 1000 times more stayed than migrate to Pakistan...he is exaggerating but his basic premise that more muslims on what was to be India on Aug 16/47 stayed behind than move to Pakistan. To make it simple it is ratio of all muslims in India which is 140million divided by Mohajirs in Pakistan. in 1947 terms, approximately 6 million crossed to pakistan while some 30-40 million stayed.

secondly it may be unpleasant for you to accept but he is a Pakistani..as pure and authentic as you. So I suggest you say whatever to him, it is your right but atleast don`t call him Indian...would you like to be called Indian? ..I know answer is No.:):) so why insult poor kulharee;)

Mr. Salim: you write : Idon`t agree with Temporal, though, that rape is a cornerstone of the military dictatorship`s domestic policy.`` If Mr. T said that, then I agree that he went too far. Not seeing the exact quote of what he said, I shall reserve further comment.

you add `` I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment`` agreed. You continue ``and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda.`` Disagree. I dont think Mr. T has any political ax to grind. If he did, he would be not spend so much time on chowk.

you add: ``As far as relations with India are concerned, I am hopeful.`` Agreed. The only sensible way to live is in peace.

you continue: `` The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour.`` Disagreed. I dont think there is a single Pakistani poster who is as obsessed with his hatreds as the Pandit-Hates of India. There is no Pakistani arjun, or jay thakeray, or ajeya.

Anyway, wish you a good evening too, Mr. Chauhan. Hope all is well in Qustuntuniya. :-)

Kulharee: FIrst, you can stop pretending you are a Pakistani. Pandit-Hates-in-Disguise can be spotted a mile away, and are about the only specimen on earth who are more pathetic than the Pandit-Hates.

Second, get your facts straight. A 1000 times more muslims in India than Pakistan means there are 1.5 billion Indians in India.

Third, stop avoiding unpleasant facts - like the cesspool that is India when it comes to the plight of women (as I mentioned in my previous post).

#29 by thetinkler on September 20, 2005 1:30pm PT


It is always easy to criticize.We must put ourselves in Mushaaraf`s shoes, trying , hard as he is , to transform his society.He wants , i assume , to put his best `foot` forward


He did put his best foot forward...right into his mouth...

This isn`t just some Dan Quayle Potatoe moment...I`m guessing the paki elite circles actually believes what he said...

Kulharee: tere jaise Indian loag yahaN aa kar Pakistan ka naam badnam kartay hain...I knew it from day one you are an Indian troll;) lekin kulharee achhi chalate ho:)

Re: # 25

>>>>>If you people really were concerned about the plight of women - you would look at the cesspool that exists in India - a cesspool of greed - where brides are burnt to death in the tens of thousands every year in order to make room for a second one with dowry; where parents kill their unborn daughters with the help of doctors who abuse their access to modern technology to identify the gender of the unborn - to the extent of there being a deficit of available females for marriage to the tune of 25 million in just the delhi/haryana area alone according to one article i read in a US paper.<<<<<<

also # 26

>>>>Salim: that is a good point you make in #21 about the real wrong-doing on the part of the musharaff government being that of trying to prevent mukhtar mai from speaking out. as for you earlier point about relations with india, i think anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk would understand why Pakistan was founded. <<<<<



Tahmed32,,, what would looking towards India do? Would doing so make Pakistan look better? You really think that calling someone Hindu or Indian is an insult? 1000 times more Muslims decided to stay in India than to go to Pak; do you mean to imply that they all live in a cesspool? Perhaps you should check out the male-female ratio of Pakistan as well..and here’s a news for you: it is pretty much the same as it is in India – that means that female infanticide is as prevalent in Pakistan as much as it is in India. Or you might actually believe that Muslim pricks produce only male offspring? One thing is becoming so obvious however, that India is the gauge that some Pakistanis judge their own country by. Please look towards Rwanda or Uganda or some other basketcase and don’t belittle India by comparing it to Pakistan. Thank you and god bless.

It is always easy to criticize.We must put ourselves in Mushaaraf`s shoes, trying , hard as he is , to transform his society.He wants , i assume , to put his best `foot` forward and doesn`t appreciate situations that get adverse publicity such as Mai`s.He is clearly upset by the failure of those espousing Mai`s cause to soft-peddle the issue.I guess, that`s why he`s lashing out, `cause he has nothing to lose.

> anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk
> would understand why Pakistan was founded...
Hmmm. Seems like every Indian hates Pukees. [Except of course our beloved muslim bros
who have a soft corner for them.]
And of course, the RoW hates Muslims in general. Because, as is well known, Muslims are the
best people in the world. And all of us are jealous of them because they are ahead of us all.
And of course, they posess the truth in their book, which came straight from His mouth. Arrey
I am talking about HIM. You know na... the one whose name must not be taken .... (abey not Voldermort).

Muslims wanted to be love and be loved here in India; the wicked brahmins (Sikhs too ?)
drove them away. The remaining muslims suffer so much in India.... thank god for the land
of the pure.
Sigh ,,,, that gentle cult ..........

Neways, I digress.
But I do agree that the situation here in India isn`t exactly 1st world. And as tahmed32
rightly points out we have a lot of ground to cover too. With regard to Haryana, It is indeed
true that there is a shortage of brides because of female infanticide. And the jats now
have to go to places like MP for brides. But I think the figure of 25 million is kinda bloated.

But the stupid Punjabi and Jats are getting there just deserts. By the way, this phenomenon
seems to be prevalent in the north west of india only. Out here in Chennai, there seems to
be a glut of girls. Not that I am complainig .....

regards,
SN

#26, Thank you, Tahmed Sahib. I think that actions speak louder than words. The ban on MukhtaraN Mai`s ability to travel was much more damaging and insensitive than Mushy`s stupid comments. I don`t agree with Temporal, though, that rape is a cornerstone of the military dictatorship`s domestic policy. I hope you can understand the separate issues I voiced - disgust at the sanctioned rape of MukhtaraN Mai, stupidity of Mushy`s comment, and regret at people such as Temporal making a circus out of rapes in Pakistan to advance their own insidious political agenda. As far as relations with India are concerned, I am hopeful. The hatred expressed by Indians here on Chowk is unfortunately not unlike the hatred people in Pakistan have for each other, just because of the uniform de jour. In reality, both Indians and Pakistanis are fond of each other and can get along.
Have a nice evening, Sir.

Salim: that is a good point you make in #21 about the real wrong-doing on the part of the musharaff government being that of trying to prevent mukhtar mai from speaking out. as for you earlier point about relations with india, i think anyone who has seen the amount of hatred in the post of every second indian on chowk would understand why Pakistan was founded.

Kulharee: Pakistan has its problems, like any society. However, Pakistanis dont need the services of Pandit-Hates like you and ``paki-paki`` arjun from India to remind us of the religious primitives we have in our society.

If you people really were concerned about the plight of women - you would look at the cesspool that exists in India - a cesspool of greed - where brides are burnt to death in the tens of thousands every year in order to make room for a second one with dowry; where parents kill their unborn daughters with the help of doctors who abuse their access to modern technology to identify the gender of the unborn - to the extent of there being a deficit of available females for marriage to the tune of 25 million in just the delhi/haryana area alone according to one article i read in a US paper.

What a wonderful gift Democracy is! How wonderfully civil our S Asian IT generation is!

Turning the most horrendous of women`s dilemma into a slugfest to cover personal inadequacies and hatred. As if Musharraf`s stupidity wasn`t enough, every Ditta and Hari is dying to show off the pimple on his bony ass.

Kudos to both ``bright`` and ``educated`` Indians and Pakistanis.

:-)~~

Kulharee #22, {``It is your Military that is raping the country, and is doing it dry. A dumbass and unintelligent Army Office makes 10 times (not counting his servants) than a 100 times brighter engineer in Public sector in Pakistan``}

Now you understand why I am for reunification. Now you can have it all - democracy, Kashmir, better economy, a somewhat better judiciary, free elections, women`s rights, and you won`t need a visa to visit Bihar. Try it you might like it. No Mushy, no BB, no Nawaz.

Re: # 20

Dear Chauhan Sahib… give it a break. What in the world does Clinton or Bush even remotely have to do with the royal dumbness of Pakistanis? Just because Bush said something doesn’t mean that Pakistan is not a mess in terms of women and minority issues. You can’t point fingers towards Punchayat or Police or Courts while completely ignoring the fact that over 50% of our GDP goes towards the inept and most corrupt Armed Forces, and it leaves monkey’s testicles for other sectors of the economy. If there were justice system and Police presence (Police who is paid at par with Military bastards) in rural Pakistan, there won’t be cases as such (or at least as many). It is your Military that is raping the country, and is doing it dry. A dumbass and unintelligent Army Office makes 10 times (not counting his servants) than a 100 times brighter engineer in Public sector in Pakistan. A WAPDA engineer of Grade 18 can’t even afford to pay his electricity bill, and an Army Captain has his own Standard issued driver. Go figure.

Also, I think that preventing Mukhtara Mai from traveling was more sinister, cruel, and problematic than the utterances of a stupid man who doesn`t think before running his mouth. That was a deliberate attempt at suppression of free speech. We should throw Mushy and his gang out for that reason and NOT for this stupidity.

At the risk of getting banned by Mr. Temporal and his henchmen, let me try to shed some logic into this issue:

THE CASE OF THE MUKHTAR MAI RAPE IS NOT YOUR COMMON CRIMINAL RAPE CASE INVOLVING SERIAL RAPISTS OR MASS RIOT-RELATED RAPES INVOLVING GANGS OR VIOLENT MOBS. THIS RAPE WAS SANCTIONED BY A QUASI-LEGAL AUTHORITY, THE GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY, KNOWN AS PANCHAYAT. THE SO-CALLED ``HONORABLE`` MEN PUNISHED AN INNOCENT WOMAN AND OTHER ``VOLUNTEERS`` CARRIED OUT THE VERDICT OF THIS AUTHORITY. THE POLICE, THE ADMINISTRATORS, AND EVEN THE LAHORE COURT ARE IMPLICATED IN THIS TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE. THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM HERE THAN MUSHARRAF, MUKHTARAN MAI, VISAS, AND THE WASHINGTON POST. THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE THINKING OF VILLAGE LEADERS AND LOCAL POLICE, NOT TO MENTION THE LAHORE COURT.

Rape is wrong. It`s criminal. It needs to be stamped out. There is never ANY excuse for rape. Stupid people often say stupid things and Mr. Temporal is no exception. Mushy was not misquoted, he actally said something that was insensitive, stupid, and may be fatally harmful to his position as ``president.`` But then, Bush said one or two insensitive things when he went to New Orleans about him having ``too good a time in NO while a young man.`` How about the notorious ``It`s a Crusade`` comment right after 9/11. We all remember Bill Clinton`s ``I did not have ...`` comment. Maybe the embarrassment of this goof will be sufficient impetus for Mushy to get to the bottom of the Lahore Court, Multan police, and Panchayyat mystery. Dictatorship does have its advantages - maybe we won`t have to wait for years for some simple answers and quick justice.

aww...prophet tahmed(peace be unto his self-righteous left butt cheek) is ignoring the indian interactors again...

Re: # 15

Those who rapped MukhtaraN Mai and those are making fun of rap are not Indian monkey-men. They are your dedicated 5-time Nimazi Hajis Aashik-e-Rasool Allah pious and righteous men.

faisaluno: what ``Political capital`` is chowk going to make from this?? i realize of course that your beloved dictator is incapable of doing or saying anything wrong.

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#13/#14 I see the indian monkey-men have crawled into this article as well. :-)

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Mantolives comment#1 is a perfect example of his character:

He is rationalizing the rape (it happens everywhere) and the mistake seems only
about Mushys comments !! - so all that needs to be done is some PR !!

A typical Rich-Anglicized-Paki-Elite view.

The issue is not only about the rape, but the whole systemic issue of the the laws
and the behavior of the authorities.

Mantolives comments show that the so called ``educated/liberal`` elites of pakistan
are merely pretenders - wanting to cover up the problems.

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Let`s take a look at musharraf`s record..

Tasked with taking back siachen: FAILURE

Planned to do a siachen-in-reverse in Kargil: FAILURE with an added bonus of abandoned bodies of Pakistani soldiers

Promised to liberate Kashmir from the hindoos: FAILURE...

Bottom line..he`s a failure...but what can you do about it? DIDDLY SQUAT....

says a lot about the kind of people who run this website that they would try to make political capital out of an issue as serious as the issue of violence against pak women. and the desperation of these people is quite comical. this article for instance is a rehash of an article already published by this ``house wife/author`` almost two months ago in s.a. tribune. why this fact is not acknowledged should be fairly clear.

i think people behind this website are getting desparate because of the following development. coincidently, the firm accused paying bribes is the same firm that employed kojo annan and is in the middle of oil for food scam:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-9-2005_pg7_2

Benazir Bhutto appears in Swiss money probe

GENEVA: Former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto re-launched her defence against Swiss charges of money laundering on Monday, appearing in a Geneva court and saying the accusations were politically motivated...``

more details available here.

http://hsgac.senate.gov/110999_report.htm

also friday times reported last week that zardari went on a shopping spree two weeks ago in london for which he claimed gbp 35,000 in vat refunds while exiting the airport.

no wonder people are getting desperate.

One of the funny thing about the Kommando General is he honestly believes he is the Ata-Turk of Pakistan, protector, defenderand guide towards the destiny of Pakistan. He is absolutely devoid of any sense of mortality of human beings. How nice.

So the fate is sealed. After Mush who? Possibly another General!

#7 by ahsan8211

[Is there any hope for the nation? I can not wait to see this guy go away.]

Ahsan,

It is not going to be easy. It is easy to free the physically enslaved but not the ones that are mentally enslaved. Over the decades, Pakistanis have come to believe in the infalliability of their military. The Paki Army has made excellent use of propaganda (I say even better than Goebbels) to discredit civilian leaders and pump up its own invincibility, which is why the average Abdul was jumping with joy when Musharraf overthrew Nawaz Sharif and took over. It has successfully brainwashed Pakis into believing that the wars that it actually lost were glorious victories and those wars that became publicly known as defeats (like the one at Kargil) were blamed on incompetent and cowardly politicians (in this case Nawaz Sharif). Bangladesh was blamed on the scheming witch of a woman, Indira Gandhi. This false sense of superiority over the civilians has led them to demand privileges that are not accorded to an ordinary Paki.

Over the years, even ordinary Pakis have caught the habit of blaming everyone else for the plight Pakistan finds itself in.

It is going to be generations before Pakis can come out of this mindset. A mindset that is perpetually looking for quickfix solutions without realizing that what took generations to imbibe will take decades to unlearn.

Yasmeen, you sumed it very nicely. I fail to understand why Pakistani people are willing to live with this kind of behaviour. Is there any hope for the nation? I can not wait to see this guy go away.

Re: # 4
now that was one intereact which thread the eye of the needle....I hope my man mantolive`s understands the issue

#article

[For what? Only because of one man’s high handedness, his total intellectual bankruptcy and his awful supporters and advisers. ]
Anyone who attributes the treatment of Ms. Naz to “one man’s high handedness” rather than the system the man represents must be complimented for superhuman powers of equanimity – and for having the focus of Eklavya – to be able to look only at what one wishes to look at.

[To tell the truth, instead of a seasoned statesman, he behaves more like a half-mad janitor.]
It’s good to know that our Mushy’s behavior has some redeeming characteristics - at least half so!

(Enter Mantolives)

(Enter the camel)

Camel (C): (In pain) Hi Manto!

Mantolives (M): (To self) Oh no, he wants to make me look like a fool! (Aloud) Don’t you DARE make me look like a fool!

C: Relax. I have a LOT of respect for lawyers! I am afraid of people with words – especially expletives. Besides, this load is killing me.

M: (Pouting) I will have you know that over fifty percent of my interacts are expletive-free! And what’s the big deal with that load – everyone has problems – every camel carries his own load – even the one across the border! And Mushy looks like a pretty light-weight rider to me – as riders go.

C: (Groans with pain under heavy load) It’s not him personally – it’s all that baggage he sits on top of – and absolutely refuses to let go – and his foot, with which he keeps kicking me.

M: Don’t worry about his foot – it’s firmly in his mouth!

Mushy (Mus): Hold on camel, here is another little bag for you – no big deal – consider this light as a straw.

C: It is too much!

(Dies the camel)

M: It was all the fault of that straw – one lousy straw – and every one now wants to have a field day blaming Pakistan! (Looking over the shoulder) I hope the Indians are not looking. (Reassured) Cool! At least, that camel did not make ME look like a fool!

(Exit Mantolives)

``I can bet 90 % rikshaw-wallas plying the roads of Pakistan would have shown better judgement in analogous circumstances than the infinite wisdom of two consecutive chiefs of army staff put together – without ever crossing the well-guarded gates of fabulous Staff College.``

I agree...........lips zipped.................

the same question occurs in my mind.......can we trust this person anymore.Specially in the case of Dr AQ khan.......as he said leave Dr AQ khan on me......i am between Dr Aq khan and the rest of the world...after listening his comments about the rape case....and he is the biggest politician ever came in the history of the world.....he straight forwardly denied whatever he said.......in rape cases........but unfortunatly....mr President.......the tape had been recorded......so you got no more excuse.......
he is shouting human rights since he took the presidency........and shouting in all over the world..........
let`s forget about the recent rape case.......and talk about the dr shazia and mukhata maye.....do you suppose to say mr president you are leading your country towards most scure human rights...
this is embarassing for the whole nation....specially for women........

#1 by Mantolives

[Pakistan is caught in the crossfire between a gun totting crazy mad General and an equally crazy and idiotic New York Times columnist.]

Yaar Yasser, you give way too much credit to Kristoff for the crossfire Pakistan is caught in. Is your country so weak that one ``idiotic NYT columnist`` can alter its fate? If anything, Pakistan is caught in the crossfire because of Mushy`s idiotic actions (putting Mukhtaran Mai on the ECL) coupled with his foot-in-the-mouth disease evidenced by his blatantly callous remarks. I personally feel the people of Pakistan are to blame for having allowed this man to speak for them.

The whole episode reeks of how Paki rulers are intolerant of an aggrieved woman (or for that matter man) speaking out her mind.

This is a well written article...

Musharraf has a penchant for making a bad situation worst... rapes do happen in all countries but in Pakistan, our tinpot makes a mess of things by making stupid statements...

Ironically it was his decision to personally target Nick Kristoff and deny him Visa to visit Pakistan that became the tinka that tickled poor Nick... so much for being a world class journalist from the the most widely read Newspaper in the world... Pakistan is caught in the crossfire between a gun totting crazy mad General and an equally crazy and idiotic New York Times columnist.