History Does Repeat Itself in Pakistan

#21 by bbabu

``Please tell us why Indian leaders are any more cunning than Pakistani leaders``
The reason Indian Leaders are more cunning than Pakistani leaders is because India never accepted Pakistan..... It is Nehru`s words that if they (Muslims) are seperate than they won`t even survive 2 weeks.....Why would you think he made this statement ... it is because he knew that Congress and British governemt will split the subcontinent and resources up the way Pakistan could not survive .... On the other hand Jinnah and the Muslims just wanted to live independently ..... As a result of the decisions made in 47 we saw Bangladesh split up .... Kashmiris have been asking the same from India but it is Ok for India to Interfere in 1971 in what was East Pakistan ... but not for Pakistan to interfere in Kashmir.....The list goes on and On ... the only reasons Indians are crying is because Pakistan was succeeding in Kashmir with Militants and people ...... If you look at the history of both countries you will see that India never accepted Pakistan as an Independent country and your politicians did every thing in their power to break this country up... Until ........... that brings me to AQ Khan ...... That guy just shutt India up as you know now Pakistan could Nuke India (hopefully in theory only).... and if India decides to Nuke Pakistan it will be as nuking themselves ... thats why your Prime Minister goes to USA and wags his tail on expense of Khan .... And you know what is funny he is your president`s cousin ........ talk about deception if not corruption ... you guys are still ahead ......

ekmalang #18

````Pakistani elite has a record of deception that will never be matched by the Indian elite. You can look to 1971, Kargil, Taliban, AQ Khan smuggling etc.````

`` Let me just say that Indian Elite is as curropt as Pakistani elite if not India would not be one of the most poor countries in the world. With all the resources available India should be an economic power. With Pakistan we had Military rule for the most of the part so it was never chosen governemnts. So we didn`t have choice which culprit on the other hand Indians chose their thieves personally.``

Why change the topic to corruption ?

Your original rant was
`` India has a nag of being cunniving and stabbing you in your back and we have many expamples to proove that. Siachin they want to fight us for a glacier and won`t even go back without marking the current positions. This tells you the lack of honesty these people have for God`s sake its a glacier. Go home and sleep its no one`s to claim. I just believe that no matter what Indians and especially Hindus will never be friends of ours we can be decent neighbours but they will never be honest with our people.``

Please tell us why Indian leaders are any more cunning than Pakistani leaders

ekmalang #18

````What makes you Pakistani soldiers on those hilltops would survive laser and satellite guided bombs from Indian air force bombers ? Clinton could have supplied India with those bombs directly or indirectly through Israel or Britain````

`` I guess we never got a chance to see if India would have gotten Laser Guided Missilles and if yes how the Jawans would have survived. Thats my whole point we should have let this be won on the ground, I guess Mian Sharif thought the same why as you did lets save few jawans from Laser Guided bombs......``

It is hard to say no to Uncle Sam when you have less than a billion dollars in reserves and you need IMF help.

Why stop at a narrow incursion like Kargil ? Maybe you should send the entire Pakistani army to conquer Kashmir ?

What stopped Mushy and his boys from obeying Nawaz`s dash to Washington and subsequent order to withdraw. They did not have any problems disobeying his orders three months later.


````Pakistani elite has a record of deception that will never be matched by the Indian elite. You can look to 1971, Kargil, Taliban, AQ Khan smuggling etc.````

`` Let me just say that Indian Elite is as curropt as Pakistani elite if not India would not be one of the most poor countries in the world. With all the resources available India should be an economic power. With Pakistan we had Military rule for the most of the part so it was never chosen governemnts. So we didn`t have choice which culprit on the other hand Indians chose their thieves personally.``

India has less per captia resources than Pakistan - land, water, energy etc. India has received less foreign assistance on a per captia basis than Pakistan. You do not see too many people in the Indian public accusing the Indian leaders of being a lackey of foreign interests. It is hard to say that for the Pakistani leaders. India has more diversity which makes governance a little bit more difficult. Barring Nehru`s disatrous affair with state socialism Indian leaders have governed much better than Pakistani leaders.

``India has a nag...etc..``

Arre mere bhai, tau hamara time kyon khali peeli me barbaad karate ho?

(Be careful. There is very dangerous Hindu stuff hidden in that line) :)

#17 by bbabu
``What makes you Pakistani soldiers on those hilltops would survive laser and satellite guided bombs from Indian air force bombers ? Clinton could have supplied India with those bombs directly or indirectly through Israel or Britain``

I guess we never got a chance to see if India would have gotten Laser Guided Missilles and if yes how the Jawans would have survived. Thats my whole point we should have let this be won on the ground, I guess Mian Sharif thought the same why as you did lets save few jawans from Laser Guided bombs......

``Pakistani elite has a record of deception that will never be matched by the Indian elite. You can look to 1971, Kargil, Taliban, AQ Khan smuggling etc.``

Let me just say that Indian Elite is as curropt as Pakistani elite if not India would not be one of the most poor countries in the world. With all the resources available India should be an economic power. With Pakistan we had Military rule for the most of the part so it was never chosen governemnts. So we didn`t have choice which culprit on the other hand Indians chose their thieves personally.

ekmalang #15

`` First of all let me remind all of my Indian ``Freinds`` here that Kargil was taken from Pakistan the same way. i.e Indian Army climbed up the post during winter and survived until summer. When Pakistani soldiers try to go back up in Winter they were stopped by Indian Army. So Pakistan did not do any thing different, Kargil was ours before and Pakistani Army tried to take it back. My personal opinion Mian Sharif if not bow to the pressure Kargil was ours to loose. If my Indian friends could remember they had nothing but losses in all the conflict. If NS just would have Shutt Up and instead of running to DC should hav run to Bieging we would have been OK.``

What makes you Pakistani soldiers on those hilltops would survive laser and satellite guided bombs from Indian air force bombers ? Clinton could have supplied India with those bombs directly or indirectly through Israel or Britain.

`` India has a nag of being cunniving and stabbing you in your back and we have many expamples to proove that. Siachin they want to fight us for a glacier and won`t even go back without marking the current positions. This tells you the lack of honesty these people have for God`s sake its a glacier. Go home and sleep its no one`s to claim. I just believe that no matter what Indians and especially Hindus will never be friends of ours we can be decent neighbours but they will never be honest with our people.``

Pakistani elite has a record of deception that will never be matched by the Indian elite. You can look to 1971, Kargil, Taliban, AQ Khan smuggling etc.

AsadHamza #11

`` Responding to harish_hyd: Comment on NS melted away is how he handled the situation. He may not be aware of it when it was undertaken but once it was dawned upon him, he should have handled it in a statesman spirit. ``

The poor chap had no control over what goes in his own government. You expect him to be a statesman.

First of all let me remind all of my Indian ``Freinds`` here that Kargil was taken from Pakistan the same way. i.e Indian Army climbed up the post during winter and survived until summer. When Pakistani soldiers try to go back up in Winter they were stopped by Indian Army. So Pakistan did not do any thing different, Kargil was ours before and Pakistani Army tried to take it back. My personal opinion Mian Sharif if not bow to the pressure Kargil was ours to loose. If my Indian friends could remember they had nothing but losses in all the conflict. If NS just would have Shutt Up and instead of running to DC should hav run to Bieging we would have been OK.
India has a nag of being cunniving and stabbing you in your back and we have many expamples to proove that. Siachin they want to fight us for a glacier and won`t even go back without marking the current positions. This tells you the lack of honesty these people have for God`s sake its a glacier. Go home and sleep its no one`s to claim. I just believe that no matter what Indians and especially Hindus will never be friends of ours we can be decent neighbours but they will never be honest with our people.

#11 by AsadHamza

[Comment on NS melted away is how he handled the situation. He may not be aware of it when it was undertaken but once it was dawned upon him, he should have handled it in a statesman spirit.]

Nawaz Sharif`s panic response was a natural human reaction to the Paki Army`s misadventure. How would you feel when you are not kept in the loop and when the whole plan collapses, you are asked to take the blame as if its your doing? The Paki Army did everything surreptitiously, but when the plan didn`t work out, put NS in the spotlight to take the blame and buy a letoff for the Army amid the full glare of the world media and a furious Paki public.

It is a good article, although Indians don`t have any business poking their noses in Pakistani affairs unless they are directly impacted by those affairs.

Speaking of Indo-Pak love affairs, there has been another pattern. One repeated, almost shot by shot, in 1965, 1971, and in the Kargil affair.

In each case, until the very last moments, the Pakistani nation was led to believe, and Pakistan`s public deliberately chose to believe, that Pakistani army was winning the war handsomely. Then when the crash inevitably came, everybody was greatly astonished and everybody felt betrayed by everybody else.

Responding to harish_hyd: Comment on NS melted away is how he handled the situation. He may not be aware of it when it was undertaken but once it was dawned upon him, he should have handled it in a statesman spirit.

Responding to Shankar: Thanks for the comments but lets not say anything about Prophet (be it our or yours). Although you have put it in a very sympathatic manner, I would like this particular comment to be removed.

Responding to harish_hyd: Comment on NS melted away is how he handled the situation. He may not be aware of it when it was undertaken but once it was dawned upon him, he should have handled it in a statesman spirit.

Responding to Shankar: Thanks for the comments but lets not say anything about Prophet (be it our or yours). Although you have put it in a very sympathatic manner, I would like this particular comment to be removed.

He literally melted in the face of Kargil War (which PTV trumpeted as a skirmish). He handled it in the stupidest and most foolish way possible. His rushing to Clinton darbar and his abject acceptance of withdrawal of Army/Mujahadeen from Kargil heights made the masses feel ashamed of their existence. Definitely, we would have had to withdraw from Kargil, but like this? Shame.

It is easy to see why the Paki Army has mamaged to successfully enslave Pakistan for most of its wretched existence. The educated elite believes that it was Nawaz Sharif who actually spoiled the victory party for Pakistan at Kargil by rushing to Washington DC and withdrawing troops from the icy heights without so much as a squeak from the ``brave`` Paki Army. When Mushy could overthrow NS for the small crime of not allowing the plane in which he was traveling to land, could he not have done that when Paki pride was on line at Kargil?

On another board, Yasser and his wife are blaming Gandhi for even the cold that they both catch. This is symptomatic of the Paki psyche. Find a scapegoat for evey ill that plagues their country. But when will they ever understand that their miseries will not end till they learn to take up responsibility for the mess their country finds itself in?

Holy Moses:

I have read only few sentences of -your post and it has spoiled my entire day. Don`t you have anything better other than these melancholic thoughts and words in your bag? Life can`t be that bad in Pakistan?

``He literally melted in the face of Kargil War (which PTV trumpeted as a skirmish). He handled it in the stupidest and most foolish way possible. His rushing to Clinton darbar and his abject acceptance of withdrawal of Army/Mujahadeen from Kargil heights made the masses feel ashamed of their existence. Definitely, we would have had to withdraw from Kargil, but like this? Shame.
``

If anything, NS puleed Pak Army`s chestnuts out of the fire. What else could anyone have done except negotiate safe paasge? Do Pakistanis really think they could have occupied Kargil forever without Indian reaction if NS had not gone to DC?

Good work.
Corruption in the army is nothing new but now it is widely known due to the various scandals, involving the generals, that surface regularly in the press. This leaves one to wonder about his own security when the hand who is supposed to be protecting him is robbing him.

shakar:
I dont think you can put the blame for Kargil squarely on Mush. He was not the only one involved in the operation. surely it was a ill-conceieve/ill-planned/ill-fated operation but the whole administration was equally responsible for the horrible kargil episode.

One question remains: What good is our army? Taking up most of the budget and leaving the poor to die in the streets. But they have an iron grip on the country and I dont see any threat to their absolute power in the near future. Giving them a free hand of doing whatever they DAMN well please.
wat`a pity.

His rushing to Clinton darbar and his abject acceptance of withdrawal of Army/Mujahadeen from Kargil heights made the masses feel ashamed of their existence. Definitely, we would have had to withdraw from Kargil, but like this? Shame.



Yatha Raja Tatha Praja...

For years Pakis thought(or told us) Nawaz flew to Washington, uninvited and on a 4th of July, so Clinton could beg him to let India off the hook...all this time, not more than a fraction of pakis asked: If India was on the ropes, why was Nawaz in DC instead of Vajpayee?

it`s work of great merit.

Nice article Mr Shah.

It was Mush(y) that was the chief villan of the Kargil war. It was a commando operation, through & through. I`m sure he was central in the planning of that bothched ``operation``.

Even when the whole world knew the truth...he goes to the international media & says....with a straight face....that there was absolutely NO involvement of the Pakistani army....except ``moral & logistical support``..

I mean c`maaan....

Then you wonder why even your ``all weather`` friend, China tells Pak to ``get real``?!...
Foggetabout your INCREDIBLE ummah....they are more interested in protecting their own asses rather than support esoteric concepts like ``kashmir``...

{{Definitely, we would have had to withdraw from Kargil, but like this? Shame.}}

How ELSE could Pakistan withdraw?
When you are caught RED HANDED with your hand in the cookie jar, & then LIE like a bloomin` idiot... to ``save FACE`` in front of your naieve junta....ultimately you have to withdraw...with your face red....& you dont even claim the dead bodies of your own jawans!...

Seems to me ``chivalry`` is confined only to your fellow Generals & other sychophantic ``top brass``....

but Mushy has NO SHAME....He takes over his beloved country with ``all humility & sincerity``.......yup!...only when his noble butt`s on the line....

Moral of the story: ``better to have the world famous milt-ry to loot my beloved country than a slimy politician``

Too many times the world famous Paki miltry has tried to ``fight`` external aggressors (read India)....& each and every time they have recieved a ``bloody nose``.......& each & every time they have declared ``glorious victory`` to their junta....& each & every time the junta actually BUYS that bs...

Gee... I wonder when FIELD MARSHALL Ayub Khan said ``democracy is not suited to the genious of the Pakistani people``.....I wonder if he was trying to redefine the word ``genious``...rather than the word ``democracy``...

Let me point the ways your mashoor ``patriotic world famous`` propaganda machine on Chowk & in your media operates:

1) It was a BRILLIANT ``tactical`` move...& it would have suceeded if that dope NS hadnt gone to Washington...hat in hand!

2)For every 1 of our jawans that we lost ...Indians probably lost 200...so the victory was ours!

3)Our jawans are GREAT (1 of them equals 5 cowardly Indians...or was it 10?)...but our Generals SUCK...thats why we lose...Isi baat per hamara vatan hamesha mar kha jaata hai...Wah!!!...that ought to get the NOBEL PRIZE in excuse-making

4)We INTERNATIONALISED the Kashmir cause....so the ``moral victory`` is OURS!!!

5) Since each & every time we have frustrated our enemy from ``occupying`` our country...so...we have WON each & every war....

O jee sunte hooo?!...helllooooo...is anybody IN THERE?...
Just what kind of buttheads do you think we Indians are ? What kind of a dope would want to occupy a country that that cant even frikking rule itself in these 58 odd years?....

When a BJP Vajpayee goes and lays a wreath at the minar-e-Pakistan ....it means EVEN the frikking right wing hindoos have accepted Pakistan is a REALITY....

& then these ``Islam-ke-mashoor-pehelwans``...amply aided & abetted by your incredible army.... stab him in the back with Kargil...
...then CEO Mushy comes to Agra...puffs his chest like the ``warrior`` that he is & makes DEMANDS.....Paki public applauds him for ``standing up to Indians``...

Yo! win a frikkin war first, you moron...THEN make demands....you aint walking on any frikkin moral high ground...goddamned hypocrite army...maybe you can fool naieve Paki junta with this kind of perfidy, but banias arent as dumb as they look...

Yeah yeah... the feudals & the politicians & the beaurocracy & the abdul on the street have no qualms about looting Pakistan....even self-awowed ``muslims`` like His Holiness General-Sahib Zia-ul-Huq & his coterie of sychophants have looted the country...

The WORST offender in Pakistan is the goddamned army....never in the history of a nation has a miltary lost so many wars & yet prouder than ever about its INCREDIBLE prowess, than the Pakistani milt-ry.....Yup! it knows how to apply the danda to its own people....this institution has been ``world famous`` for buthcering its own citizens, most of them fellow muslims....citizens of Pakistan

---

to boot!!

Pakistan doesnt have a military....it has a goddamned MAFIA!!!

When I say that history reveals that each successive Pakistani govt has ....over the last 58 years....SPAT upon the face of Mohammed Ali Jinnah....worse than that ....spat upon the face of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)...go ahead & say ``its in poor taste``...

Thank YOU Jinnah...for creating Pakistan....lets just be neighbors OK...you people aint better off for s*it......

I am in total agreement...any govt in pak no matter democcratic or otherwise amont to same.

#1: Nawaz was famous for his lack of interest in details..it used to take him ages to deal with paperwork and even longer to understand complex issues..

``He literally melted in the face of Kargil War (which PTV trumpeted as a skirmish). He handled it in the stupidest and most foolish way possible. His rushing to Clinton darbar and his abject acceptance of withdrawal of Army/Mujahadeen from Kargil heights made the masses feel ashamed of their existence. Definitely, we would have had to withdraw from Kargil, but like this? Shame. ``

what is the understanding in pak about kargil? I personally think it was mushys act, NS was caught unawares. What do you think?