Why Democracy?

Of course Decomcracy is superior. Even Communist China is trying to create a fusion between a Communist governement and a Capitalistic economy. Capitalism, Christianity and Democracy are the keys to a wealthy civil society. Look at the most successful countires in the world; United States, England and the Germany,.

Even God seems to be an American. Or at least he favors them. Not long ago Muslims proudly and exuberantly proclaimed that God was punishing America for it`s ``evils`` by eradicating New Orleans. It is estimated that just over 1,000 people have died and hundrend possibly thousands are homeless. But it is now appart that God favors America. Look at Pakistan. Now estimates are that 79,000 are dead and millions are homeless. Where are the muslims with prolimations of ``God`s wrath``? It looks as if capitalism, in the eyes of God is pale in comparison to a religious extremism, intollerance, terrorism and a horrible human rights record.

Apparently the endless charity of the U.S. had overcome the supposed evil of capitalism. It`s ironic that countries that are all to eager to hate the U.S. become beggars in the face of the almighty U.S. dollar.

Before you debate me, get off your knees.

#67: “And Gordon Tullock who is pioneer of work on democracy and forms of government is completely confused as to where to put China in spectrum of things.”

Economists should probably browse through some of the Management journals for insights and inspiration. China research is pretty hot in my field; (Actually research involving any of the transition and emerging economies is considered sexy).

Here is a short list of some of the famous journals from my field that I recommend to the economists (many even have special issues on transition and emerging economies):

Journal of International Business Studies
Management Science
Academy of Management Review
Administrative Science Quarterly
Strategic Management Journal
Academy of Management Journal
Journal of World Business

Remaining humbly interested in micro- and meso- level research,
Regards,
Sahara
:):):)

As the humans have grown or evoluted, the method of governance have also progressed depending on the need of the human society. First there were only tribes, then came kings, then kingdoms, then empires, monarchs and then democracy.

Monarchies were effective once upon the time when the source of revenue for the state was limited to just one i.e. the land. Throughout the history, therefore, kings and monarchs have tried to increase their land holdings generally through wars and agressions on other territories. Larger the land holding, larger the revenue and thus no doubt larger is the welfare of (generally the victorious) people.

Monarchies died their natural death because they failed to provide able and competent rulers generations after generations. Then there was always powerful struggle and the moment a monachy got weak, the esrtwhile conquered states became independent.

Monarchies thus could work in an agricultural society but they can no way work in the complex Industrial-technological Societies of today. For the simple reason, that the techno-industrial society runs on individual enterprenurship. The method of centralised or governmental planning has failed miserably in all the nations who adopted it. A single source or authority cannot run the industrial complex of today. It has to be run by the people at different locations. Thereby the authority has to be decentralised which is not possible in a monarchy. Secondly and more importantly, to run the industrial society, merit and professionalism is required more than the blood relations.

So far only democracy has been able to run the complex industrial society of today though present-day China is one exception. Dictatorships, on the other hand, may sometimes save a country from immediate impending collapse, but in the longer run they will doom the country.

addendum to last post. Targetted killing of Hindus by Sikh militants was totally despicable act of desperation and terror.

#72 by bbabu
Babu,
Read my post in the context of hubris…

“It beats me how Osama Bin Laden`s goal of overthrowing Saudi royal family fits with Pakistan`s national goals.”

Bin Laden as long as he lived in Pakistan and in Afghanistan was fully financed by Saudis. He was actually blackmailing Saudis. The Pak army would not work on any scheme that is against the Saudi monarchy unless they are told by the US to do so. The first master is the US and second master is KSA. Maybe you wanna review Osama and Pakistani links for your analysis.

“I think American courting of India is to spend a hard message to the Pakistani elite to back away from anti-Americanism.”

Anti-Americanism and Pakistan elite? No dice, babu. Pakistani elite has never been anti-American and it will never be that way in the next five to ten years. I think Pakistan’s growing dependence on the US may again- sooner or later-become a problem in the region.

there are still lots of Hindus who fled Amritsar and other parts of Punjab at that time. None of them has gone back

---

True some Hindus left rural areas of Punjab...most of them moved to cities which were a bit safer from terrorism than rural landscape. so did many siksh who moved to cities....in fact 20% of my village population ..all sikhs who left for city never came back to village while 2 Hindu families who moved to Haryana came back and have good business in the village now. Only a small number of Hindus moved out of Punjab and even majority of them moved back. In all the ones I knew moved back. from what I know of two districts Amritsar and Ludhiana...I can pretty much bet my pants that there are proportionately more Hindus in year 2005 than..than say before the violence of 1980`s...say 1979 (eve discounting Bihari labor). So phrase ``None of them came back`` is totally false.

As for arresting people under TADA and POTA...government was totally insane....they arrested in excess of 1 lakh of people under various acts at one time....most of them innocent who eventually got out...but there is small number that is still in jails after 20 years without any cases against them. Excesses by punjab police and paramilitary forces are huge and in many cases despicably brutal and unhuman.

HP #69

`` Just checking up on Turd Blossom and no blossom’s hubris.

If Hadley does not know then it does not mean that nobody knows. India was the first country in the world to have an anti-terrorist Law initially called TADA and then POTA.

Man for man, India has made more arrests under the anti terrorism laws then any other country in the world. Just look at the numbers- up to 75000 yes 75K and ALL of them INDIAN National. It sound like India is the real breeding ground of the terrorist. It is the capital of Terrorism per its own laws and number of arrest made in India since 1984. Remember the Sikh terrorist who killed umpteen number of people and there are still lots of Hindus who fled Amritsar and other parts of Punjab at that time. None of them has gone back. ``

India has its share of political violence. Most of the violence is localized. The only victims are Indians. Nobody really cares other than some Pakistanis who want to score brownie points in debates.

Pakistan has woven its way into disputes that have nothing to do with it. It beats me how Osama Bin Laden`s goal of overthrowing Saudi royal family fits with Pakistan`s national goals. Most of key Al Qaeda operatives who are Arab have been captured in Pakistan.
All major Al Qaeda operations have a Pakistani connection - 1993 WTC bombing, 1998 embassy bombings, 2000 Cole attack, Sep-11 and recent London bombings.

I think American courting of India is to spend a hard message to the Pakistani elite to back away from anti-Americanism.

Re: # 13

``Democracy is the most unnatural system ever devised for governance. What comes naturally to man?``

Ayurvedic and Unani medicines are sold on argument that they are ``natural``. Nothing that a Man does is natural. Man is most natural when he is artificial. Early Man may have lived like lions, in herds where respect of head of herd was the principle controlling behaviour. Later Man must have invented concept of State as geographically contiguous entity as more useful concept for ensuring survival of its progeny. But evolution works slowly. So, lion-like behaviour continues.

Even when average joe does not understand hard math, he does understand that ``Military`` productivity is in direct proportion to boundary length, whereas number of people that an area can sustain is in direct proportion to agriculturally useful area. But area itself has ``enemy within`` which needs to be policed. So we have to have ``Police`` productivity. The ``Military`` productivity helps increase area, the ``Police`` productivity helps increase economic productivity of a country. If ``Police`` productivity is low (say, because of corruption in police force) then economic productivity falters. If ``Military`` productivity is low than that country may be gobbled up by a neighbouring country. Early Man had to contend with violent non-human animals as only ``enemy`` and so, ``Military`` productivity simply meant how efficient military was in warding off violent non-human animals. Early Man must have also fought ``enemy within`` in the form pests and diseases. So early ``Police`` productivty would have meant also progress of medicines and pest control technology.

Modern Man has to increase ``Miltary`` productivity just to bully other countries to give up their natural resources cheaply and preferentially. Modern Man has to invent fiction that somehow their contries are ``better`` than other countries to enlist help of citizens to fight wars. Citizens of other countries are automatically potential if not actual enemies.

Whatever democracy may have meant in past in modern times it is used as only a token concept. Actual thing done is more determined by considerations of survival of country and imperialism (increasing dominance in other countries).

Well India gets the points for persisting with democracy all along. This consistency is due to the one party rule right into the 80s, when Congress had to sit on the opposition benches. This fortified the conventions, traditions and the institutions. However during this time, India did not do well economically due to the policies of Fabian Socialism. It is the change of course by Rajiv that India is on the up.

Pakistan had no political and economic infrastructure. Muslim League was boarded by the feudal and turncoats after the legislative assembly vote, who tightened their grip on power after the death of Jinnah. Except for the populism of early 70, which was also socialist, elites one way or the other have remained in power. However, due to geo strategic factors Pakistan has consistently been able to attract aid, which utilised with whatever corruption was able to stimulate the economy. So what Romair calls 40 years is actually the time of artificial insemination. Democracy on the other hand never took roots. The objective resolution was plugged into the constitution of 1956 without any popular consent. In fact religion was used to gain legitimacy. Thereafter, Pakistan never looked back. The most recent election rather than galvanizing people has created splits and fissures down to the family level. The earthquake has been a blessing of sorts in that people have forgotten about the local governments and are now galvanized in support of victims. The intervention of the most recent aid (9/11) has in no way provided any economic advantage to the masses. Low interest rates benefited the rich only and the effect never trickled down. The middle class has become a hostage to Credit Cards and Leasing. In Pakistan we can neither be proud of our democratic experimentation, nor bloat about our splendid development.

Cherios

#63, #64

Just checking up on Turd Blossom and no blossom’s hubris.

If Hadley does not know then it does not mean that nobody knows. India was the first country in the world to have an anti-terrorist Law initially called TADA and then POTA.

Man for man, India has made more arrests under the anti terrorism laws then any other country in the world. Just look at the numbers- up to 75000 yes 75K and ALL of them INDIAN National. It sound like India is the real breeding ground of the terrorist. It is the capital of Terrorism per its own laws and number of arrest made in India since 1984. Remember the Sikh terrorist who killed umpteen number of people and there are still lots of Hindus who fled Amritsar and other parts of Punjab at that time. None of them has gone back.

Don’t forget the recent attack on Ayodhia in which no names were released because all attackers were Indian Muslims. Don’t also forget the Bombay Blast…Still looking for Dawood Ibrahim from there and poor Sanjay Dutt. He is still crazy after being hung upside down and rammed by Indian cops.

Now what they call them aatumtvadi.

Almost 80% of recent arrest were either Muslims or Naxalite. 32 organizations were banned as terrorists.
Not to mention that Jamat Islami student party.

Any more hubris turd blossom and no blossom?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/sep/18spec1.htm

Several terrorist attacks, especially in the troubled state of Jammu and Kashmir, and the attempt to storm Parliament in New Delhi quickened the pace of enactment of POTA. The act replaced an earlier anti-terrorism law known as the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act, which was allowed to lapse by the P V Narasimha Rao government back in 1995.
How many arrests were made under POTA in the last two years?
According to the Union home ministry, some 800 people have been arrested and jailed under POTA. Some 4,000 people from across country were also booked under the Act.
How many arrests were made under POTA`s predecessor, TADA?
From 1984 onwards, some 75,000 people were detained all over India under TADA. Of these, 73,000 cases had to be subsequently withdrawn for lack of evidence.
But, strangely, though TADA was repealed long ago, there are still prisoners languishing in jails in India under this Act. For instance, there are 14 TADA prisoners still in Patna jail, according to Mukundan C Menon, secretary general of the Confederation of Human Rights Organisations.
The state government claims that POTA has been widely used in many parts of Jharkhand to curb the Naxalite menace. But human rights activists say POTA has been misused in Jharkhand against poor, low-caste, tribal people and farmers and villagers who support Naxal groups.
Has the government banned any organisation under POTA?
The Vajpayee government banned 32 organisations under the anti-terrorism legislation.

Re: # 50

Dear Romair:

You have been consistent in your rail against the feudal system. If I look at the US, I don`t see the negative effects of the huge land owner class, you call the feudals. Can you explain why the land owners in US were so successful in implementing democracy? What is the reason behind Pakistani feudal`s reluctance in giving up their hold on the society?

I would truly appreciate your insight,

Respectfully submitted,

BBA

Re: # 25, 27, 29, 41, 55

#25 burpinder

There is an inherent tension between public accountability and truth. It is not only the problem in politics but everywhere….even in knowledge and intellectualism itself. This is the difference between Said’s and Gramsci’s intellectual. And yes it is cynical and it is true. We need to live with these tensions and find the best route. Of course, preferences of outcomes are different for different people for whatever reason and hence the different opinions.

#27 Mantolives

I have taken graduate courses in Economics…am still taking graduate courses actually with some of the world’s best and I do get good grades…excellent sometimes. This paper was not written for an academic forum. And yes it is not a journalistic piece either. The purpose of the paper was to brainstorm different ideas for and against democracy (I appended a footnote with the article saying that I am writing this only to rouse up different ideas…mainly to get ideas for a larger research paper that I intend to write in following couple of months). There is no time limit on naseeb vibes or chowk, but there happens to be a time limit in my schedule. Next time I will try to make a better case.

About Pakistani constitution…have you looked up figures on who voted for and against Objectives resolution which ended up being an important part of 73 constitution? Besides, the constitution we have now has been affected by more than 7 judicial cases…starting with Asma Jilani v. Government of the Punjab and till the more recent Ali Shah v. Pervez Musharraf. Judiciary has evolved the constitution in Pakistan. Judiciary is not supposed to play that role in Constitutional Democracies. However, the question that what consequences the role of judiciary had on constitutional democracy in Pakistan is a very intriguing one and I happen to be researching on that right now. Havent formed any opinion yet though.

Burpinder #29

Quotes are rather interesting.

Ijaz gul #41

True..theories provide a normative sense ..through which positive conclusions can be drawn sometimes.

Temporal #55

VERE interesting question! We had a debate about China the other day in class. And Gordon Tullock who is pioneer of work on democracy and forms of government is completely confused as to where to put China in spectrum of things. It is definitely not a democracy and definitely not a dictatorship…not an imperfect democracy either. So the answer is….I don’t know! But research on this question should be very interesting.

#64 by nb on October 19, 2005 3:37pm PT


Mantolives disputes this. Please give proof, or say no more. Thanks.


Manto is an egyptian...his whole life is based around a river called the nile...i couldn`t care less what he thinks...

Fact is, I`ve posted dozens and dozens of news items about pakis being busted for terrorists..paki men have to go through an extra ``screening`` for visas...

India has the the same number of muslims as Pakiland...do the math...

In any case, manto`s not a real muslim...so according to the two nation theory as interpreted by a huge majority of pakis - captain clueless can attest to this - manto doesn`t belong in Pakiland....

#52 ranger, why is age so important in asian nations, esp. for education? once you hit 30, you`re ``old`` for entering the job market. why is that? you can`t just generalize and say 30 year old madrasis with dark circles under their eyes retook exams five times before gaining admission into some xyz institution. people have lives, and dung happens. instead of applauding a 30+ person for attempting to seek higher education, and going through a rougher time, with maybe basic high schools skills deteriorated over the years, instead of pointing to that person and saying here is someone who wants to achieve and rightly deserves to, why are they put down? Employment application, over 30, oh sorry, we need someone younger. Over 50, babaji, it`s better for you to sit at home and sip tea. When institutions like Harvard can recognize the influence and wisdom of retirees through specially created programs for them, why are people esp. in southeast asia so backward? what is so WRONG with hiring old, or older, people? just my gripe...

Re: # 63
Mantolives disputes this. Please give proof, or say no more. Thanks.

Every month we hear some paki being busted somewhere for some terrorist act...given that India has just as many muslims(and Indonesia has even more), I`d say he`s spot on..

Indian democracy kept Muslims away from jihadis, says Bush aide

WASHINGTON, OCTOBER 19: Observing that democracy in India has helped keep Muslims away from terrorism, a top US official on Wednesday asked Muslims around the world to help counter the ‘‘distorted’’ vision of Islam that terrorists seek to advance.

‘‘We must counter the grim totalitarian vision of the terrorists with the positive vision of freedom and democracy,’’ President George W Bush’s National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.He then cited India as an example of how democracy can defeat the ‘‘jehadi appeal’’.

‘‘Democracy does seem to weaken the appeal of the terrorist extremists. As our Indian friends are quick to point out, India has the second largest Muslim population in the world. Yet thus far Muslims from India have not been discovered participating in the global jihad in either Afghanistan or Iraq,’’ he said.