Why Democracy?

#46 by Ranger on October 19, 2005 11:15am PT


No idea about the article....but regarding the IIM vs LUMS debate


LUMS grads are destined for jobs that will get them 72 virgins..IIM postgrads are mostly virgins..does that count?

Democracy actually has two required stages/characteristics:

- The first is a regular change of governments, in a consistent manner, based on the free will (free being the key word) of the populace
- The second is the (elected) government, working in an efficient manner, to uplift the life of its citizenry

If we look over the past 50 years, or so, Western democracies have achieved both of the above. India has achieved the first one, but not the second one (it has now started on that one, though). Pakistan was never able to achieve the first one. It did to some extent achieve the second one, through unelected govts., which maintained a 6% growth rate for four decades.........

People tend to confuse democracy with mere elections. Elections, in and of themselves, are actually useless, if they don`t lead to the uplift of the populace. Hence, whenever someone talks about democracy, they need to keep both the above in mind. And not just the first stage..........

I don`t think Pakistan, due to its feudal politics, has the pre-requisites in place, to achieve the first stage. It is a Catch-22 situation. Feudals get elected, while they are, themselves, the problem. Hence they will never end feudalism. So the only way to go is to achieve the second stage, regardless of how it is done, thereby creating the pre-requisites of the first stage, i.e. the China/Korea/Malaysia model........So Pakistan should give economic growth in a stable environment, preference over elections..........

India has the first stage in place, because it was never as feudal as Pakistan. And thus, it had the pre-requisites of democracy. It has taken it a very long time to start improving in the second stage. But it has started to do so, now..........So India should give its elections priority over economic growth............

I think the tipping point in declaring a country democratic, is when it can start giving elections priority over economic growth, i.e. establishment of the first stage is in such an efficient manner that it starts showing results in the second stage...........

Using that criteria, the Western nations have been democracies for a while. India has started to becoming a democracy, over the past decade. While Pakistan is not a democracy, even if it holds elections.............

Re: # 50

Romair yaar, you try way too hard. Democracy means Rule of the People. “Demos” is people in Greek. It is a “system” of Government. It doesn’t promise or guarantee anything, all it means is that the governance of a state is by its citizens – and the rules are decided based upon the preference of the Majority. There are no guarantees for Mano-Salwa or flying carpets. Like any other system of governance, it has its shortcomings.

``IIM postgrads are mostly virgins..does that count? ``

Not sure about that...I have visited the IIM campus several times ....its a mixed bag - obviously married women , fat sardarjees , sunken eyed 30 year old madrassis....undoubtedly made it after 2-3 or more attempts at CAT......but yes , majority - atleast 50% are in their early-mid 20s.

Democracy works the best in states where citizens are of character and independent thinking. So, in most cases - including Desis, it is like a razor in monkeys` hands.

In Desiland, donkeys and asses are more in number than another species, thus the leader is always an ass or a donkey; who has effectively turned other species to behave like asses.

Re: # 47
Kulharee...
I said that the WORD democracy did not appear and that`s true. In my world you aren`t allowed to make up your own definitions. Perhaps in yours it`s permissible. In that case no one has the faintest idea what the other is talking about - nor cares. It`s enough that the sound of his own babel drowns out everything else. mirmir

Ghazia:

a belated welcome to chowk!

and a query

where would you place china in this debate?

lve

t

Re: # 47
Kulharee:

Since my words carry no weight with you, I’ve included a few excerpts (below) from a site you might want to visit. Please understand that these are not my words, nor do I subscribe to all the OPINIONS stated here, but ALL of what’s stated as FACT is indeed factual. You must understand the difference between opinion and fact. If you disagree with anything in the article, please contact the authors.

Here’s the URL if you have the time and inclination to read the entire essay:

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm

“In which kind of social system does liberty thrive best — or in which kind of social system is liberty least threatened? Some believe that liberty is best safeguarded by democracy — but this is very doubtful, at least if democracy is taken to mean simply a system in which political representatives are elected every now and again. Voters in many Western countries are apathetic because they believe that their vote actually makes no difference. As has been said of so-called democratic elections in the U.S.: Whoever wins, the people lose.”

“Neither the word ``democracy`` nor its derivatives occur in the U.S. Declaration of Independence or in the U.S. Constitution. Yet because of an 80-year propaganda campaign the American public has been brainwashed to believe that ``democracy`` was what the American Founding Fathers wished to establish on the North American continent (as a model for the world). As the article by Robert Welch (below) makes clear, the truth is precisely the opposite. The Founding Fathers framed the U.S. Constitution so as to protect Americans from democracy.”

“In a democracy there is a centralization of governmental power in a simple majority. And that, visibly, is the system of government which the enemies of our republic are seeking to impose on us today. Nor are we ``drifting`` into that system ... We are being insidiously, conspiratorially, and treasonously led by deception, by bribery, by coercion, and by fear, to destroy a republic that was the envy and model for all of the civilized world.”

“These days the word ``democracy`` is bandied about by many politicians, high government mucketymucks and U.S. imperialist stooges in S. E. Asia and elsewhere as if it were a noble ideal that everyone should support unquestioningly — and preferably unthinkingly. (It`s getting so that when I hear the word ``democracy`` uttered by a politician or government official I automatically reach for my BS detector.) Could this official rhetoric disguise a more sinister intent? Could this apparent ``pro-democracy activism`` in fact disguise a drive toward a one-world government by which the ideal of a totalitarian fascist government, dear to the hearts (if they have hearts) of the U.S. imperialists in Washington would be extended to cover the entire globe?”

``I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist, then it would choose the American system.`` — Noam Chomsky, Language and Responsibility

Kulharee

We must get ALL the ``compulsory`` questions right at all costs. One wrong answer nulifies everything.

However, there is some relaxation in the ``optional`` ones.

#57 belongs to another board. sorry

#57 belongs to another board. sorry

Romair #50

`` - The first is a regular change of governments, in a consistent manner, based on the free will (free being the key word) of the populace
- The second is the (elected) government, working in an efficient manner, to uplift the life of its citizenry ``

Why do you want governments to be efficient ?

Re: # 53 kaura
//...In Desiland, donkeys and asses are more in number than another species....//

Have you been to any of ``Red`` states in US ..... ever met a hilly-billy in tennesse?... or a red-neck in texas? .... or a southern baptist in south carolina? .... These people would put ``donkeys and asses`` to shame!!!

Speaking of ``character and independent thinking``, we have seen a lot of that in desiland... Remember Nehru - he certainly had ``character`` and ``independent thinking`` - but what did that lead us to? .....socialism, non-aligned movement ... blah blah...

#50, Romair writes that Pakistan was able to maintain a growth rate for 4 decades. IT seems like a huge accomplishment that would have had pakistan roaming among the likes of Portugal or spain or even S Korea. Why is it then that a country with a y/y growth rate of 6% over 40 years ranks at the bottom of the league tables for every HDI factor imaginable. 40 years of such growth...me thinks it is the absense of #1. Wealth creation permeates deeper in democracies because accountability is the driving factor for governance be it public or private.

Democracy is not an electric switch that can turn on and off. It is a living breathing governance process that evolves over time, more compatible with human thinking than any alternative God or man has provided.

Every month we hear some paki being busted somewhere for some terrorist act...given that India has just as many muslims(and Indonesia has even more), I`d say he`s spot on..

Indian democracy kept Muslims away from jihadis, says Bush aide

WASHINGTON, OCTOBER 19: Observing that democracy in India has helped keep Muslims away from terrorism, a top US official on Wednesday asked Muslims around the world to help counter the ‘‘distorted’’ vision of Islam that terrorists seek to advance.

‘‘We must counter the grim totalitarian vision of the terrorists with the positive vision of freedom and democracy,’’ President George W Bush’s National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.He then cited India as an example of how democracy can defeat the ‘‘jehadi appeal’’.

‘‘Democracy does seem to weaken the appeal of the terrorist extremists. As our Indian friends are quick to point out, India has the second largest Muslim population in the world. Yet thus far Muslims from India have not been discovered participating in the global jihad in either Afghanistan or Iraq,’’ he said.

Re: # 63
Mantolives disputes this. Please give proof, or say no more. Thanks.