Remembering H.M. Seervai (1906-1996)

jang- a very poignant statement... coming from you I am surprised.


hindvi- Sir, you know I accept your point of view... but your point of view is correct only uptill understanding the motivations of the UP Muslims and their leadership. Ofcourse Jinnah didn`t care about an ethnic Punjab state... then why did he jump to a solution that did not even marginally uplift the condition of his constituents. The demand and the pull came from Punjab ...

Infact if you look at it closely a great historical and primodial pull was separating this region from the rest of South Asia... the Indus - which has had a distinct existence for over thousands of years... something which Aitzaz Ahsan has so wonderfuly articulated.

even a ``simple`` divorce between two individuals is always cataclysmic to the individuals and their dependents. expectations that complex political separations be smooth is naiive at best, and criminal more accurately. individuals who have had marital strife at least should know better...

mantolives: ``Untill recently I naively believed this thesis that you are forwarding in 133 as well... but my own study-especially that of the ``Pakstan National Movement`` which predated Muslim League`s movement by 8 years ... makes me conclude that the idea of separate state- not necessarily a separate Muslim state- had found a lot of support in Muslim majority areas.
Often parochial ethnic and linguistic identities and interests were wedded deeply into this idea... Punjab especially...

Now if the demand/desire would not strong... then the League shouldn`t have been forced to use it...KK Aziz counts some 100 separatist schemes in that period.``


Lets put it this way

if this demand for a seperate ethnic state was so popular could not any of these guys formed a party and campaigned on its behalf? They didnt even need to form a seperate party the Unionist party could have been hijacked for this purpose.

Lets ask ourselves did jinnah care a didly squat for some Punjabi`s desire for an ethnic state?

fact of the matter is not one seat could have been won on the platform of a seperate ethnic state for the northwest. without the muslim fear of a hindu dominated India the child even if conceived would have been still born, not enough legislative support could be bought within the provincial assemblies leave alone at the all india center.

in both Punjab and bengal despite razor thin majorities the chief minister was always muslim, there was little desire among the Unionists or the Bengalee muslim satraps to upset this cart. No responsible muslim politician in these provinces was ready to take up the demand of some stary eyed ethno nationalist student. What I have listed below is the maximum that ethnicity contributed to the movement i.e. a notion that iqbal espoused that the northwest was a different race with different foods, dress and specifically religion, and even Iqbal died in 37 nursing that dream trying to convince his superman of his destiny.

it was 37/38, then the war, which changed all that since now it was clear to the muslims that the british were packing and the british were also urging jinnah to come forth with a solution to the indian problem, they needed some pronouncement to keep the congress at bay.

was there an ethnic pull from the northwest and bengal sure there was, was it ever going to be sufficient? never, did it convince jinnah? I dont think so, but did jinnah use it? sure, he was everything to everybody and when such a large millenial carnival get underway all sorts of people hop on for the ride.

here though it is relevant to mention the economic motive, the unionists who were large muslim landlords allied with small hindu jaat farmers from haryana, were deadly afraid of the congres` land reform agenda. The muslims of west punjab and the haryanvi jats also laboured under very high interest rates from hindu and sikh mahajans, many of whom had aquired land holdings over a period of time by confiscating mortgages and buying from their surpluses, high interest rate lending was common in other places in the north as well but in punjab land aquisition also accompanied to prevent which specific laws were pased by the unionists chowdhary chotu ram and sir sikander.

Most of the educated clerical and professionals were also hindus. similarly in bengal the muslims had a share of land holding below their percentage of the pop. again hindus were more educated firstly because the conversions had largely taken place from the lower castes and secondly the muslim nobility had been profligate mortgaging its lands to hindus many of whom took over those lands when the muslims could not generate the revenue wich the east india company wanted. so in both places there was economic tension as well which partly explains the viciousness of the attacks.


the economic motive was in fact strongest in the muslim minority provinces where the muslims were most educated infact the ashraf’s quest for govt jobs had been one of the main goals of the league from 1946 onwards. But here a strong base existed among the muslim zamindars who from the late thirties onwards were terrified of the congress’ avowed policy of abolition.

Some muslim banias from bombay presidency also jumped onto the bandwagon in order to escape from hindu bania’s mercantile dominance.

It must be said here that much of these midlle and feudal class objectives were achieved with the exception of the north Indian muslim zamindars. The muslim banias found a captive market, the Punjabi and mohajir middle class’ filled the govt or army or started business in a newly emerging economy. The sindhi/Punjabi/ baloch feudals largely kept their land and the muslim bengalis and some Punjabi farmers got their own land. The muslim zamindars in India lost their land which they any way had to, some who were educated migrated to Pakistan and did will others didn’t do well even their, some did ok in India, and their children went to Pakistan and the gulf but many just rotted away. Many young educated muslims kept migrating to Pakistan until the 1960s.

But most of the muslim masses of both Pakistan and India did poorly and continue to do so.

Dear HP,

I think you are right about some issues, but here is how I see it.

1) Most Muslim League`s liberals broke off after 1948 and formed their own all Pakistan parties.

2) Most conservative diehard Muslim Leaguers, whatever their political ideology, took a position against the One Unit.

3) The gentlemen who created havoc with Pakistan`s constitution were the following:

a) Ch. M. Ali- the prime minister.

b) Mr Bogra- prime minister

c) Ghulam Muhammad

d) Iskandar Mirza

All of the above were civil servants... As a Muslim Leaguer from Sindh thundered in the Constituent Assembly ``Some ex-servicemen have conspired to extend their rule- and have abused the politicians``. You see ideologues and ideologies are one thing... but it is their positions on the constitution that matter.

5) I didn`t suggest that Ghaffar Khan gave his blessings to Dr Khan Sahab, but anyone aware of their general style of politics, would know that it must have been well thought out ... because Khan Sahab operated on his brother`s instructions... it is the general style of that family to play politics like this.

Sincerely

YLH

#156
Yasser,

“One of the many ironies that blows holes into the thesis about ideologues (Who were these?) taking over 1947...”

Not really!
I am fully aware of the Republican Party and what that party stood for. If you are implying that Dr. Khan Sahib had Ghaffar Khan’s blessing then I am afraid you are on the wrong track. Dr. Khan sahib like many other politicians switched his political loyalties. That is a widespread phenomenon in politics everywhere. That does not mean that all nationalist whether they were affiliated with Ghaffar Khan or not switched loyalties. After all many politicians before Dr. Khan Sahib and after him have done that..

I know on many occasions you have argued that in a federation, by the nature of federation itself, the provinces or the units have the rights to either form a loose federation or have the right to secede. The whole Pakistan demand in the CMP and afterwards had boiled down to this very principle.
Without going in to the whole debate of federation, I will just attempt to be précis on this issue.

The CMP offered a loose federation of India with three zones. When Congress failed to agree to that, the ML proposed secession in the shape of Pakistan.

By first agreeing to CMP and then proposing secession, the ML had set the precedent and the federating units/Provinces in Pakistan had inherited that right by virtue of their being supportive of the Muslim League stand before 1947 against the central government in Delhi that had refused to acknowledge the basic tenet of a federation; the right of the provinces to form the federation and not vice versa. You see in a federation units/Provinces join the federation voluntarily. They cede the sovereignty to the centre in return for some rights in self governing.

The establishment of Pakistan was on the same principle. The Provinces had agreed to become part of Pakistan based on 1940 resolution and the legal maneuverings before the partition confirmed to the Muslim Majority provinces that they would have the same rights that Muslim League was fighting for in the united India.

Once Pakistan become independent that became the focal issue and the Provinces wanted to inherit the rights that were the bases of independent.

The Pakistani Provinces had voluntarily agreed to become part of Pakistan but when they asked extended rights in self governing, the central government first hesitated and then finally refused to do that by forming the one unit.

Pakistan was unable to have a constitution for a long time because it could not reconcile with the demands of one larger and other smaller provinces. Once East Pakistan was gone, Pakistan was able to have constitution fairly quickly though the center again trampled on the provincial rights by bringing the army back in power and suspended the constitution first in NWFP and Balochistan (1973) then all over Pakistan in 1977.

In this background, you will agree with me that people that opposed the provincial rights in 1947 onwards were the same people who had propagated the TNT in the united India; the Muslim bureaucracy and the politicians from the minority provinces.

They got control of Pakistan after Jinnah by virtue of their holding all key positions in the Muslim League. They co-opted Punjab and later Punjab turned the tables on them with the army support and then the Army itself took over thus ending its reliance of civillian politicians and bureaucracy.

The provincial autonomy is the key reason that the Pak army refuses to have free elections in Pakistan. It refuses to share resources with the provinces.

Romair

The reference was to the 562 princely states ruled by all kinds of medieval thugs, and the Plan Balkan in 1947 to offer them the option of choosing independence.

kaalchakra #159: ``Most Indians appreciate that right at its birth, India could possibly have disintegrated into hundreds of little pieces``

Could you kindly explain, how India at its birth, could have separated into, ``hundreds of little pieces?`` Hundreds? And do most Indians really think that India would have split into, ``hundreds`` of pieces....

How exactly was this breakup into hundreds of pieces going to occur? What exactly are you basing this on? What were the hundreds of units going to be? Can you point to some historical facts that support this theory? Or is this just a theory to satisfy certain present-day policies? Other than the Pakistan movement, what other 199 movements were going on in India, at the time of partition; hundreds implying at least 200 such movements.......

And lets suppose India did split into a lot of pieces. What difference would that have made? After all, before the British made it a part of an empire, its natural base was quite a few different nations, who never lived together, unless occupied. If they had wanted to go back to how they existed, would that have been a tragedy? Or would that have been their right?

The future of the world lies in economic unions. Not in geographical unions; specifically forced ones. If one can travel to a place without a visa and if one`s money can move through the place easily, then that is much more important that showing some place on one`s map, just to satisfy one`s own ego, while not being welcomed in that place........

All geographical regions, which have a free market and no visa restrictions, voluntarily being part of such unions, will always outperform regions which have forced geographical unions . South Asia can continue to live in the dark ages, or it can accept this simple truth.

I am happy Bangladeshis separated from Pakistan, if that is what they wanted. If today I want to set up an office there, they will give me VIP treatment. Had Pakistan kept it, forcefully, as a part of its flag, Bangladeshis would have spit at me had I tried to visit the place.....In fact, Bangladeshis are asking Pakistan for free market acces of goods and many are, themselves, trying to migrate to Pakistan!!

This is what happens, when one lets poeple go. They eventually come back, themselves, on much friendlier terms..........

There is an awareness in India that Kashmir did not come to India `naturally,` and that its union with India was not the ``fairest`` of all theoretically possible dispensations.

Kashmir came to India because various parties quickly got down to playing territorial games after 1947, grabbing what they could. Most Indians appreciate that right at its birth, India could possibly have disintegrated into hundreds of little pieces (a kind of Rahmat Ali dream come true). The one Indian who emerges as the clear hero (from the Indian point of view) was the Iron Man, Sardar Patel, who played the game as it was being played, and saved the nation from utter destruction.

hindvi#153:

Noorani`s article supports what I have always maintained on chowk, namely that neither India nor Pakistan can stake high moral grounds on Kashmir issue. However, I differ from Noorani in that my view relates to what happened post-1948. Indian stance initially was quite consistent, even in Kashmir, they refused to accept the ruler`s accession to India until the most popular political party`s leader endorsed this request and also made this accession subject to seeking the will of the people. The Indian hypocrisy came later when they used the votes of a rigged assembly to claim that that commitment was satisfied.

There is also a serious inaccuracy in Noorani`s article when he says that ``The June 3 Partition Plan had placed it in Pakistan.`` Even Pakistanis do not claim that Gurdaspur was given to Pakistan on June 3; their claim is that the original plan shown by Radcliff to Mountbatten (in August?) included gave Gurdaspur to Pakistan and that he changed it upon Mountbatten`s instructions.

Re: # 130

Mohar, you seem have to misunderstood me.

My reference of a ``nuance`` was to the subject of the article and his works on constitutional law and not on the politics of pre-1947 per se.

You might consider otherwise, but the topic offered me a new insight and that is why, I used the term ``nuance`` to register my thoughts after reading the article. :)

Ciao

Re: # 150

HP...

Have you read something of the Republican Party of Pakistan...a party formed to undercut both Muslim League and the East Pakistan parties ... Republican Party is the single party that was formed with the intention of promoting and purporting the One Unit scheme ...

Who do you think led this establishment based party?

Dr Khan Sahib, ex Congressman, and the brother Abdul Ghaffar Khan.

One of the many ironies that blows holes into the thesis about ideologues (Who were these?) taking over 1947...

BTW... Jinnah didn`t only laugh off the idea... he called Rahmat Ali and his friends ``stooges of British imperialism``.

Hindvi,

Untill recently I naively believed this thesis that you are forwarding in 133 as well... but my own study-especially that of the ``Pakstan National Movement`` which predated Muslim League`s movement by 8 years ... makes me conclude that the idea of separate state- not necessarily a separate Muslim state- had found a lot of support in Muslim majority areas.
Often parochial ethnic and linguistic identities and interests were wedded deeply into this idea... Punjab especially..

The fact of the matter is that you are right that Jinnah laughed off Rahmat Ali`s idea because he was more concerned in till 1937 in reorganising the Muslim League as a progressive Muslim platform in the Hindu majority provinces as a back-up for Congress. Nehru`s rebuff in 1937 and his taunt to Jinnah to depend on the League`s inherent strength made him look for alternatives and made him go searching for the Muslim Majority provinces...

Now if the demand/desire would not strong... then the League shouldn`t have been forced to use it...KK Aziz counts some 100 separatist schemes in that period.


-YLH

have a look at this article, no body comes out looking good:

REVIEW ARTICLE

History as prison

A.G. NOORANI


Shortly after he had left India, Mountbatten wrote to Nehru on August 15, 1948, warning him against going to war with Pakistan... . But even years later, many in our ``strategic community`` hold that India should have gone to war in 1947-48.




Jinnah Papers; First Series; Volumes VIII and IX; Editor-in-Chief: Z.H. Zaidi; Quaide-I-Azam Papers Project, Government of Pakistan; Distributed by Oxford University Press, Karachi; pages. 434 and 654; Rs.500 and Rs.650 respectively.





Mohammed Ali Jinnah with the Khan of Kalat, Ahmed Yar Khan. Jinnah was embarrassed when the Khan took him at his word and started talking of sovereignty.

Statesmen, it is true, generally inherit from their predecessors predicaments and dilemmas to which they can see no complete solutions; their ability to improve situations by action over the short term is often quite genuinely limited; but over the long term... there are always some choices at their disposal.
- George F. Kennan

IT would be hard to find a more accurate description of the predicament in which Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Pervez Musharraf find themselves today. They are prisoners of history who are eager to break out of its shackles; find themselves unable to agree on any breakthrough ``over the short term``, but have the desire for, and vision of, success ``over the long term``.

Meanwhile, the situation in Kashmir deteriorates. A vacuum in leadership is sought to be filled by politicians jockeying frantically for recognition. Popular alienation and human rights violations show no sign of ebbing. The main inhibiting factor is public opinion moulded by rhetoric of the past.

China keeps reminding India that the boundary dispute must be resolved bearing in mind both the facts of history and the realities of today. The same holds good for Kashmir as well.

These volumes of Jinnah Papers make a timely appearance together as inseparable twins. Volume VIII covers Pakistan`s policy towards the states generally and in respect of each of the 12 states that acceded to it; notably, Kalat and Junagadh. Volume IX covers Hyderabad and Kashmir in one volume, as if to project the duplicity, double standards and the lies retailed by the top leaders of both countries. That, of course, was not Z.H. Zaidi`s intention. He is a stolid Establishment man and his Introduction is appropriately tendentious.

But no reader can fail to be struck by the inconsistencies. Therein lies their value. Public opinion in India and Pakistan needs to be educated. Their leaders were undoubtedly men of high quality. Sadly, in 1947, they failed to devise a settlement which would ensure peace between their countries. Instead, they sowed by their actions the dragon`s seeds of war and spread by their rhetoric lasting prejudice.

In the process, the communal atmosphere in both countries was also fouled. The roots of the Kashmir dispute lie in 1947. Contested historical narratives are trotted out still by the leaders, aided by ambitious academics and enthusiastic journalists, to buttress their stands. In truth, both sides adopted inconsistent stands on: (1) the worthlessness of the ruler`s Instrument of Accession; (2) plebiscite; (3) territorial contiguity and (4) the communal factor. Both practised deception and both used force. The starting point must be recognition of the historical truth that neither side was virtuous. Their sordid intrigues in Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad were not retaliatory. They were begun and proceeded afoot simultaneously. ``When the ambivalence of one`s virtue is recognised,`` to quote Kennan again, ``the total iniquity of one`s opponent is also irreparably impaired.``

The Council of the Muslim League met on June 9, 1947, at the Imperial Hotel in New Delhi, to accept the Partition Plan of June 3. Mohammed Ali Jinnah was questioned sharply by members from Bombay, the United Provinces, Orissa and Bengal about the plight of the Muslims in India. He said blandly that he ``could disclose nothing beyond his personal opinion that the safeguarding of the rights of Muslim minorities would depend upon the future relations between Hindustan and Pakistan``.

That was only one reason why he should have tried earnestly to ensure good relations between them. Pakistan depended on India for division of assets; it was militarily weak and administratively in a shambles. A Kemal Ataturk would have done just that and proceeded to build in peace the state he had succeeded in establishing. Jinnah had won Pakistan. He needed peace in its own interests and, indeed, for its own sake in this land of strife and sorrow. But in his hour of triumph, Jinnah emerged as a small man. He launched a campaign designed to ensure India`s Balkanisation and laid the foundations of estrangement for decades to come. However, Jawaharlal Nehru and Vallabhbhai Patel were then at work simultaneously in a similar enterprise. They knew what he was up to. He knew nothing of their work. ``I doubt very much if it [Pakistan] can survive at all,`` Nehru predicted. Jinnah had a different prediction. ``Kashmir will fall into our lap like a ripe fruit,`` he would say, Mohammed Ali, Secretary-General of Pakistan`s Cabinet, recorded in his memoirs.

There assuredly was a way out. That avenue was opened by the Congress and barred by Jinnah. The Partition Plan covered British India, alone. The princely states comprised one third of India`s area and a quarter of its population.

The leaders clashed at a joint meeting with the Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten on June 13. Nehru insisted, rightly, that the princes could only join one or the other of the states in a ``federal relationship``. Jinnah asserted they could also opt for independence. He had said in May that Pakistan must be ``viable`` vis-à-vis India. Partition of Punjab and Bengal was a blow he could not avert. Why not enfeeble India and redress the imbalance? The minutes record: ``Pandit Nehru said... he spoke as a lawyer. Mr. Jinnah said that he spoke as a lawyer also.`` It had come to that.

The All India Congress Committee (AICC) passed a resolution on June 15, upholding the right of the people of the princely states to decide on the issue of accession to either state. Jinnah issued a statement on June 17, and another on July 11, asserting the right of the rulers to do so or to become independent. It was a foolish and immoral gamble, as events demonstrated. In 1947, Pakistan`s vital interests centred on Kashmir; India`s on Hyderabad. Professor Reginald Coupland asked: India could exist if its arms were amputated; but could it survive without its heart (Hyderabad)? Jinnah went straight after this ``heart``, nearly jeopardised Kalat`s accession to Pakistan, ruined Hyderabad and ensured the loss of Kashmir in the bargain. Above all, he inflicted on Pakistan enduring damage.

An outraged memo, dated August 25, by his followers in Kashmir in the Muslim Conference, rival to Nehru`s ally Sheikh Abdullah`s National Conference, said: ``Kashmir can join Hindustan and Quaid-i-Azam cannot have any objection to it, though geographically Kashmir may be contiguous to Pakistan.`` National Conference workers ``argue that the Muslim League stands for the sovereignty of the rulers whereas the Congress stands for the sovereignty of the people. They [the Muslim Conference] feel as if they are left in the lurch``.

Zaidi`s comment is absurd: ``Jinnah`s stance remained legalistic rather than pragmatic, as distinct from the Congress stand, based on realpolitik.`` To assert the people`s right to decide their future and prevent Balkanisation of both states is not ``realpolitik`` but very moral. It was Jinnah who practised realpolitik and came a cropper.

His Minister of States Abdur Rab Nishtar told Mountbatten on July 18 that Pakistan ``would be embarrassed if states within their sphere of influence wished to join the Indian Union`` (emphasis added throughout). Yet, Jinnah wooed the ruler of Jodhpur. V.P. Menon describes how he caught him at the Imperial Hotel and took him to the Viceroy who reminded him ``that his state was populated predominantly by Hindus... if the Maharaja were to accede to Pakistan, his action would surely be in conflict with the principle underlying the partition of India on the basis of Muslim and non-Muslim majority areas`` (The Story of the Integration of the Indian States; V.P. Menon; pages 112-3).

That principle had a sequel which would have been comic if its consequences were not so tragic. As Governor-General of India, Mountbatten protested to Pakistan`s Governor-General, Jinnah, on September 22, that Junagadh`s accession to Pakistan was ``an encroachment on India`s sovereignty and territory... a clear attempt to cause disruption in integrity of India by extending (the) influence and boundaries of the Dominion of Pakistan in utter violation of principle on which partition was agreed upon and effected``.

That principle surely applied to Kashmir as well. Yet, on July 3, Minister of States Vallabhbhai Patel wrote to the Prime Minister of Kashmir, Ramchandra Kak, that Kashmir ``has, in my opinion, no other choice`` but to accede to India. The opposite was true. Let alone the communal factor - even Jammu had a slim Muslim majority then - Kashmir`s postal and telegraphic services, its roads and rivers were connected to Pakistan; hence, its stand-still agreement with Pakistan, of sheer necessity and exclusively. India acquired a tenuous road link only on August 15 when the Radcliffe Award assigned Gurdaspur to India. The June 3 Partition Plan had placed it in Pakistan.

After Independence, Patel set about feverishly building road and telegraphic links. This did not inhibit him from citing ``the general principle on which the division of India had been effected``. That was as late as on October 3 - but apropos Junagadh. Nehru warned Patel on September 27 that the winter ``is going to cut off Kashmir from the rest of India. The only normal route then is via the Jhelum valley`` - which led to Rawalpindi. ``The Jammu route can hardly be used during winter and air traffic is also suspended... Therefore, it is important that something should be done before these winter conditions set in. This means practically by the end of October or, at the latest, the beginning of November.``

The Maharaja of Kashmir`s forces needed popular help. But ``if their own people go against them, it will be very difficult to meet the situation``. Ergo, get the Maharaja to release Abdullah from prison. Released he was, on September 29. All was set for an accession to India. A Kashmiri associate of Nehru, Dwarkanath Kachru, wrote to him on October 4: ``Sheikh Saheb and his close associates have decided for the Indian Union. But the decision has not been announced yet and the impression is being given out that so far the National Conference have taken no decision.`` Why this dissimulation? Because, in Jammu and the present Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, the Muslim Conference was more popular. In the Valley, Abdullah held sway; but, on accession popular opinion was against him as Indira Gandhi informed Nehru on May 31, 1948. Indeed, as the British Resident, Wilfred Webb, noted on August 13, Sheikh Abdullah`s influence had declined after the fiasco of the Quit Kashmir movement he had launched.

Pakistan solved the problem by sending tribesmen into Kashmir on October 22. The Maharaja acceded to India on October 27. Mountbatten accepted the accession on the condition that ``the question of the state`s accession should be settled by a reference to the people``.

How could Jinnah complain? His reply to Mountbatten on September 22 asserted that ``the principle`` had ``nothing whatever to do with this as the question of states was dealt with quite separately``. But that was - apropos Junagadh.

Documents in Volume VIII reflect Jinnah`s acute embarrassment as the Khan of Kalat took him at his word, began to claim sovereignty, and avoided accession to Pakistan. He even made overtures to India. He was brought to heel only in April 1948 after a display of armed force. It would have been actually used if, like the Nizam of Hyderabad, the Khan had refused to see reason.

Jinnah did his best to prevent the Nizam from seeing reason. The ruler sought his opinion on July 28, noting realistically: ``When the British go, there would be no chance of making anything like so favourable arrangement with the Government of the Dominion of India, as would be probable on the present basis, if a settlement could be reached now.`` He demanded to know ``to what extent could Mr. Jinnah provide the state with arms and equipment and if necessary, with troops``. What if there was ``economic pressure`` or a revolt ``indirectly assisted`` by India?

On August 1, Jinnah told the Nawab of Bhopal, a devoted friend, that ``Pakistan has no means of helping us``. He gave no such advice to the Nizam. A note by Ali Yavar Jung recording the Hyderabad delegation`s interview with Jinnah on August 4 shows Jinnah in a very poor light. The note was endorsed by Jinnah as an accurate record of his remarks and signed by him.

Jinnah emphatically asked the Nizam not to accede to India, citing illustrations which would have drawn withering remarks from him had they come from anyone else. These extracts reveal what he was up to:

``There was some such thing as standing for one`s own right, despite every threat or provocation. If it came to the worst, one should die fighting rather than yield on a point of fundamental principle. Mr. Jinnah gave the illustration of what he called the greatest martyrdom in history, the example of Imam Hussain standing for what was right and giving his life for it. All the sanctions in the world then existing were applied against him and his followers but they withstood them and suffered wholesale butchery... That should be the attitude which the Nizam and his advisers and people should adopt... In our own times, England had done the same against the heaviest odds... ``

After the sermon, the priest came into his own form as a shrewd lawyer.

``As regards His Exalted Highness` question as to how far Pakistan would be able to assist Hyderabad economically or politically or with troops or arms and equipment and the like, Mr. Jinnah said that it was not possible for him at present to give any specific undertaking but that, generally speaking, he was confident that he and Pakistan would come to the help of Hyderabad in every way possible. There should be no doubt on that point. He said that even countries with long-established governments could not give specific undertakings of the nature desired except by reference to the situation as it developed. The United States could not give any such undertaking when it was first approached by the United Kingdom for help during the last war, but the United States gradually began helping on different fronts until they ultimately came into the war itself.`` Jinnah was gently leading Hyderabad up the garden path.

``England was very nearly booted when, to her good fortune, Hitler diverted himself from England and attacked Russia, thus bringing the latter into a natural alliance with England and saving England from the concentrated attack which might otherwise have centred upon her. Then, America which had till then kept out of the war except by way of moral and material help, entered the struggle as a result of the Japanese attack upon her. These were providential developments without which all the odds were against England. They brought about Allied victory.`` So, Hyderabad should hope and pray for support which he could not provide, nor could any other country. Pakistan`s expert on world affairs was as informed and modest as ours. A foolish remark by Jinnah on Sudetan Germans in Czechoslovakia and Hitler in the early 1940s cost Pakistan Czechoslovakia`s friendship in 1947, as Khaled Ahmed recalled (Friday Times; November 1, 2002).

Jinnah added: ``If Hyderabad was short of petrol or kerosene, it would not matter; if, on the other hand Hyderabad had abundance of firmness, perseverance and courage. The Russians were threatened by a blockade against them but they won the war. If Hyderabad was similarly threatened, there would be other ways to fight, not necessarily with guns if there were no guns, and not necessarily with mechanised transport if there was no petrol`` - fight with faith and on Mohammed Ali Jinnah`s empty promises. The cynicism and irresponsibility are breathtaking.

Four days later, the Nizam wrote to the Viceroy refusing to accede to India. But on September 6, he wrote again to denounce the Ittehadul Muslemeen and its leader Qasim Rizvi: ``All these people are the followers of a certain gentleman who used to be in Delhi and who has now made Karachi his headquarters. They consult him in all matters and are his disciples.`` Zaidi`s explanation is delightful: ``Probably refers to Jinnah.`` Probably, Zaidi, very probably. The Nizam sent Yamin Zubeiri and another to Jinnah on October 23 to solicit his advice on the draft agreement with India and rejected the draft on their return. Jinnah`s denial to Mountbatten on November 1, when they met in Lahore, was false.

The Nizam`s Constitutional Adviser, Walter Monckton, had warned him in September 1947 that he was ``entirely mistaken in being led by Jinnah for after all whatever advice Jinnah tendered would always be coloured by that which would be beneficial to Pakistan and not to his [Nizam`s] state. He will merely make him [the Nizam] the instrument for achieving something good for Pakistan``.





The Nawab of Junagadh, Muhabat Khan III.

While all this was on, a similar game was being played in New Delhi with comparable honesty. India treated Junagadh`s accession to Pakistan as an act of war and began war preparations. Zaidi deserves our thanks for drawing extensively on the ``Mountbatten Papers``. Among them are ``Notes by Louis Mountbatten on Junagadh crisis``, dated September 29. Like Jinnah`s oration, these also deserve quotation in extenso. Together, they provide a flavour of the madness that gripped the leaders:

``Mr. V.P. Menon came to see me, while I was dressing, to inform me of what he considered the most serious crisis which had yet arisen. He told me that a complete split had occurred between the Prime Minister [Nehru] and the Deputy Prime Minister [Patel] over the policy about Junagadh... . He explained to me that although he agreed that Pandit Nehru`s reputation stood higher than ever before in the eyes of the world for the statesmanlike and unbiased policy he was following with such courage, in the communal state of mind that Hindus and Sikhs were now in, he was very unpopular in his own country and had lost all his following and might not even get in himself if there were another election.

``Conversely, Sardar Patel, who had gone completely communal, was the embodiment of the feeling of the Hindu/Sikh majority, and his stock was now higher than it had ever been and he alone could really hold the Cabinet. It followed that if Sardar Patel resigned, Nehru would be unable to carry on for long successfully and would bring about the fall of the Government.

``I pointed out that if Pandit Nehru resigned, Sardar Patel`s extreme communalism would soon plunge India into an untenable position; in fact we agreed that only the combination of these two could save India and that therefore everything must be done to try and avoid a split between them... . When Sardar Baldev Singh arrived he told me how serious the situation was, and that he himself entirely agreed with the paper put up by the Commanders which he considered had to be said.

``I pointed out to him that if he agreed with the paper, then he was the person who should have said it as his own thought and not the thought of his Commanders, since it was his business to put the political objections of committing an act of war against Junagadh to the Cabinet. He admitted this and agreed to my delivering the letter to the Prime Minister asking for the withdrawal of the offending paper [by the Service chiefs, who had demurred to a military campaign].

``... Sardar Patel was anxious that we should send forces to Babariawad and Mangrol [Junagadh`s feudatories] which he said were legally part of the Dominion of India now... I asked him if he was prepared to take the risk of an armed clash in these two territories, leading to war between the two Dominions if Mr. Jinnah preferred this method rather than take us to UNO [United Nations Organisation]. Sardar Patel said he was ready to take this risk but that he thought it was very slight, since Pakistan was in no position to wage war... .

``I then said that I was sure that an intermediate course could be found... . I saw no objection to building up a strong force to the strength of a Brigade group which would completely surround Junagadh, but remain on Indian territory.``

As part of this alternative strategy, ``I considered they should pin their hope on the People`s Provisional Government of Junagadh which Mr. Menon had so ably formed in Bombay under the leadership of Mr. Gandhi`s nephew [Samaldas] and which I understood had that day arrived at Rajkot in a beflagged special train. Pandit Nehru entirely agreed. He said that this was a matter for the people, and that they should quickly establish their reign over those `island` territories in Junagadh within the Dominion of India, and later decide how to go into the other territories. It was pointed out that funds, arms and volunteers were not likely to be lacking to help this rising in Junagadh.`` Thus the ``Provisional Government`` was New Delhi`s creation.

Mountbatten knew that Junagadh was a side-show. Kashmir and Hyderabad were the real prizes. ``I also urged him [Nehru] to make a statement of policy that in cases of states whose accession was disputed by the people or who had not yet acceded, the Dominion of India would accept a clear indication of the will of the people. I pointed out that this clearly applied in particular to states were the great majority of the population was of the opposite community to the Ruler, his Government, police and Army. I told him that I thought such a declaration would help me in my negotiations with Hyderabad. But Pandit Nehru (revealing his well known emotional streak concerning Kashmir) said that he could not bring himself to frame a statement of policy in this form, since it might be taken to indicate that they were trying to discourage Kashmir from joining India. He told me that with the dismissal of the late Prime Minister of Kashmir, Pandit Kak, and the release on the previous day of his friend Sheikh Abdullah, there was every indication that Kashmir wanted to accede to India.

``I begged him not to consider accepting their accession unless it followed a really fair plebiscite or referendum, for I prophesied that there would be nothing but trouble in Kashmir and incidentally the Dominion of India if we did a sort of Junagadh with Kashmir on Pakistan... . Mr. V.P. Menon remained behind to express his great relief that the impasse had been resolved and the split in the Cabinet averted though, I pointed out to him that the price we had to pay was to bring appreciably nearer the danger of war.``

In a letter to The Times of India, Sir Chimanlal Setalvad criticised New Delhi for its conduct. This was on October 3, before the tribesmen`s raid into Kashmir. Thereafter, he put the two countries on a par, morally and legally (November 3). Officially, both countries denied their complicity in their respective ventures (vide ``Jinnah and Junagadh``; Frontline, October 12 and 26, 2001).

It was in these confabulations that the idea of plebiscite and recourse to the U.N. came up - well before the Kashmir crisis. Pakistan`s stand was that it was prepared to consider a plebiscite if the principle was applied to Kashmir. Nehru demurred to this in talks with Mountbatten. But, on October 1, he relented and told Liaquat Ali Khan that ``in difficult cases like this the will of the people should be ascertained``.

Mountbatten recorded: ``I went on to stress the importance of this statement of Pandit Nehru`s which, I assured Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, was a statement of Government policy by which they would abide. I said I was sure that Pandit Nehru would agree that this policy would apply to any other state, and that India would never be a party to trying to get a state to join their Dominion against the wishes of the majority. Pandit Nehru nodded his head sadly: Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan`s eyes sparkled: and there is no doubt that the same thought was in each of their minds `Kashmir`.``

Nehru had, of course, no enthusiasm for plebiscite in Kashmir. He noted Abdullah`s feelings against plebiscite and wrote to him on November 21, 1947: ``In fact I share the feeling myself.`` He, of course, realised that Abdullah might not deliver and wrote to his friend Sri Prakasa, the High Commissioner to Pakistan, a few days later: ``The fact is that Kashmir is of the most vital significance to India as well as to Pakistan. There lies the rub... it is quite impossible for us to withdraw... Kashmir is going to be a drain on our resources, but it is going to be a greater drain on Pakistan. In a military sense we are stronger.`` Nehru walked into Kashmir in the face of a people not fully behind Sheikh Abdullah and acquired a problem with his eyes open. So, of course, did Jinnah, by launching the tribal raid and losing everything.

Note how the leaders interacted. Jinnah rejected on November 1 Mountbatten`s written proposal for plebiscite in all states ``where the ruler of a state does not belong to the community to which the majority of his subjects belong, and where the state has not acceded to that Dominion whose majority community is the same as the state`s`` (that is, Kashmir, Junagadh and Hyderabad). On November 8, Nehru made a very fair offer - Pakistan`s withdrawal of the raiders; India`s, of its forces thereafter, once ``law and order are restored`` and ``a joint request to UNO to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir``. By then a draft agreement had been hammered out. It is a pity that it was ``not traceable`` by Zaidi. But his reference to another document ``however`` - as if in consolation - makes no sense. That document was Nehru`s wire of November 13 asserting that ``there is no such thing`` as an agreement. The minutes of India-Pakistan talks in Lahore on December 8, however, record Mountbatten`s references to ``the draft agreement``, in Nehru`s presence. It is a document of cardinal importance on which the U.N. Commission based its ceasefire resolution of August 13, 1948. Nehru himself referred to it in a letter to the Maharaja of Kashmir on December 1. Headed ``Draft Kashmir Agreement``, it was negotiated on November 27 by V.P. Menon, Mohammed Ali, and Ismay, Mountbatten`s Chief of Staff (Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; Volume 4; page 408).

Nehru rejected the draft. So did Jinnah. He made a note in his diary on November 30: ``Kashmir - no commitment - should be made - without my approval of terms of settlement. Mr. Liaquat (sic.) has agreed and promised to abide by this understanding.`` Zaidi does not reproduce a yet stronger entry of December 16, nor the Cabinet decision of December 30 - no question of policy or principle to be decided except at a Cabinet meeting presided over by the Governor-General - itself a gross impropriety - and in the event of disagreement, Jinnah`s decision would prevail over the Cabinet`s! Thus did Jinnah undermine Pakistan`s parliamentary democracy in its infancy (vide Hasan Zaheer`s excellent work The Times and Trial of the Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case; 1951; Oxford University Press, Karachi, 1998).

In Delhi, Patel was again on the warpath; this time, on Kashmir. The Commander-in-Chief Roy Bucher`s report of his interview, on April 26, 1948, is amazing. Patel thought ``it would have been best to have marched on Lahore immediately after partition and he had advocated... `` - Zaidi, true to form, omits a paragraph from this vital document and continues - ``the subsequent concentration of all available formations of the Indian Army in Kashmir and the over-running of the whole of the state.`` Bucher replied - a paragraph omitted, again - that ``there was no point in over-running the rest of Kashmir, as the inhabitants would not vote for India anyhow``. He found Patel ``bouncing up and down on his bed`` cursing the British and Bucher in particular.

But, Patel was prepared for plebiscite there if it was held in Hyderabad as well. ``Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir, and we could reach an agreement,`` he told Liaquat, as Mohammed Ali recorded. This, Jinnah refused flatly.

Shortly after he had left India, Mountbatten wrote to Nehru on August 15, 1948, warning him against going to war with Pakistan. ``I think you will agree with [me that] Pakistan is in no position even to declare war, since I happen to know that their military commanders have put it to them in writing that a declaration of war with India can only end in the inevitable and ultimate defeat of Pakistan. Therefore a declared war can only come about by India making the declaration. I know that you will instinctively shrink from taking such a course, but I also know that there are some of your colleagues in the Cabinet and the more noisy and unthinking elements in the country who will press you to declare war... .

``Have you asked your Chiefs of Staff Committee to give you the advantages and disadvantages of declaring war?... What have you got? A few old Dakotas with a somewhat doubtful Harry Tate contraption to drop bombs which I have seen for myself at the Hindustan Aircraft Factory. To hit the target with this arrangement would entail flying at so low a height that the Pakistan anti-aircraft gunners could not miss. And we know from our own experience in England how ineffective even a first-class bombing force can be until after years of training and war experience.``

But even years later, many in our ``strategic community`` hold that India should have gone to war in 1947-48.

One man who kept his head throughout was Mountbatten`s successor as Governor-General, C. Rajagopalachari, the tallest of them all. He told Ismay that he had ``deplored the bitterness and the provocative behaviour of the Indian Government over the numerous issues which had arisen with the Government of Pakistan and said that he had urged them to learn international manners and the power of self-restraint from the British, but knew that he himself carried no weight with his Cabinet or with the present Congress Committee``.

Funny things happened. Where the future status of a territory is in issue, the accepted mechanism is plebiscite. Elections are no substitute, least of all rigged ones. Witness the referenda in European countries on the constitution of the European Union. It is another matter that 1965 rendered plebiscite impossible. India did hold a plebiscite in Junagadh on February 20, 1948, and one in Sikkim (``the special poll``) on April 14, 1975. But, not in Kashmir as it had pledged. Exasperated, Pakistan went to war in 1965 and put it out of bounds.

Today, plebiscite is as dead as a dodo. But popular alienation is greater in 2005 than it was 50 years ago. It is this stark reality which faces Manmohan Singh and Pervez Musharraf. The past does not permit them or their peoples the luxury of self-righteousness. Kashmir`s de-accession from India is impossible. The people`s rejection of the Union with India is palpable.

Given the grave mistakes committed by both countries in the past, they must craft a solution which is based on both aspects of a grim reality, reflects the security concerns of India and Pakistan, and gives the people of Jammu and Kashmir, in all its regions, the largest measure of self-government possible.

HP
``My thinking is also that the Congress and the Brits themselves had this at the back of their minds that the partition or Pakistan is not a viable idea and therefore, Jinnah is merely using it to browbeat Congress into getting the most out for the Muslim League. ``

this is true, neither the british nor the congres were sure that Jinnah was serious, because it seemed to them that he was shooting himself in the foot, they too thought that he was bargaining. Rajgopalachari was the only congress leader who said the congres should accpet in principle the right of the muslims to ask for pakistan since the more they would resist the more the league would embrace it, he also made a rough map of the future pakistan.

Kaalchakra
a decisive moment was reached in the provincial elections and govts of 37/38. the congress govts that came to power through out India, kept out the league in states where they ahd a pre poll alliance especialy in UP where the congress was not sure of coming to power alone, after the election it even tried to absorb and disband the league. then the congress govts followed a policy of imposing hindi, banning cow slaughter. The rank and file of the congres like the rest of india were not secular, and when communal riots broke out the congress was seen as partial to the hindu community. The frustration of the muslim community and the fear of what the future would hold when the moderating influence of the British would be removed drove the muslim upper and ashraf classes of the minority provences in to the league, where they pushed for along with a minority of muslims in the muslim majority provences for pakistan. even so the lahore resolution of 1940 no where used the word pakistan purposely, even though the word is in usage by then. the reason for this was purposely done because even Jinah didnt know what he exactly wanted and was keeping things purposely vague.

There was also a certain conception regarding the nature of pakistan some thought it would be an independent country but most seemed to think it would just be an autonomous part of the Indian union, that people would be able to freely travel and trade and populations would continue existing where they were, a sort of autonomous unit within the same country or union even those who saw it as independent region did not see this sealing of borders and complete cleansing and end to all contact economic, cultural or personal. Ofcourse, apart from the horrors, kashmir also contributed to this. There was also some misconception regarding what pakistan would encompass some in the majority provinces thought it would include the majority provinces whole, in the minority provences many in the upper classes people knew that no part would come but large sections continued to delude themselves, people thought aligarh would be in pakistan and hyderabad would go. In the lower classes they had no idea of pakistan at all, it was only the upper and middle classes that had some idea, the laboeres could not conceive of leaving their villages. some ashraf thought that since punjab would go and delhi was at the border some part of it would go to pakistan. In short pakistan was different things to different people and this suited Jinnah and the british.

HP, Hindvi

It`s possible that the idea of Pakistan was not understood by many people, and by few in Congress. After all, there haven`t (or hadn`t) been many instances where such a mammoth peace-time project progressed from theory to practicality in less than two decades. And a project that was based on a theory that did not exist independent of that project lasting about fifteen years. Even in terms of electoral politics, (unless I am wrong), the project and its own specific theory found support only once, and that too, at its very end, not anytime at its beginning or its middle.

It`s hard to see how most people could have understood it then, or can easily understand it now.

Hindvi,
Some thoughtful posts! I think there is no need for any references here. IMO, what we see here are hindvi’s interpretation of history that has been documented on many places and if someone is not aware of that then they ought to research it.

Your post # 136.
As you mentioned there is some evidence now that Jinnah was using the Pakistan bait for bargaining initially. My thinking is also that the Congress and the Brits themselves had this at the back of their minds that the partition or Pakistan is not a viable idea and therefore, Jinnah is merely using it to browbeat Congress into getting the most out for the Muslim League.

That is the reason, imo, that we don’t see a whole lot of work/research done on the Pakistan/Partition idea by any party (ML, Congress, or even the Brits). When Pakistan idea did not look feasible, consequently, the follow up and the partition of provinces were not even considered as the first result of the Pakistan idea. Ch. Rehmat Ali and people like him did not have a universal recognition in India at that time and his Pakistan scheme though widely publicized in many Indian papers then was never considered seriously. And as you mentioned Jinnah himself was not convinced at least until the early 40s that Pakistan was a feasible option.

Post # #133
There are always going to be fringe elements in a country like India. The extremist on both sides were saying or writing ridiculous things before independence but we need to look at the core or the mainstream political ideologies out there. We know that both the Muslim League and Congress were not led by loonies and the leadership in both parties was mostly middle of the road type secularist. Even the regional parties like the unionist in Punjab or in Bengal were not communal parties.
The communalists both on the Muslim and Hindu sides were not influential so their rhetoric or hate statements in my opinion should not now be considered as single most important reason for Partition.

It is true that while Muslims in the central India were shouting lay kay rahen gay Pakistan and Batt kay rahe gaa Hindustan, The same fervor and desperation was not there in the majority Muslim provinces.

Pakistan became doable after the emotional side (TNT, Minority provinces) hooked up with the practical side (Muslim Majority Provinces). That process began after the adaptation of 1940 resolution and firmed up after the mid ‘40s elections.
In the intervening period (between 1940 and 1945), Pakistan was still not a workable option. Therefore, we don’t see any serious effort by any party to analyze the Pakistan option.

After 1947, the ideological group (TNT) got control of Pakistan and that started the political struggle that first led to Bangladesh and still is the cause of conflict in Pakistan. When we see the Bhuttos, the Wali Khans, and the Baloch Nationalist represent the secular and local politics of Pakistan, and the central governments insist on Islamic ideology and deny the pragmatic, secular and the real basis of the federation; the provincial autonomy and participation.

Thanks.

In the latest edition of Outlook - http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20051010&fname=Pakistan+%28F%29&sid=1

Mr. Manto #127,

Do you have constitutional gerrymandering in your country to safeguard the Mohajirs, the Raos, the Butts, the Chauhans, the Khans....etc., etc.. ?

Jang I will like to take up the crucial issue of institutions later, this is avery important issue, for institutions once they aquire age become more important that individuals or even groups of individuals. but now i am tired.

Jang you are right Nehru was no ordinary man, just a single order to The Times Book club in london had 49 books ranging from biographies of Lenin, genghis khan and Timur to Sinclair`s ``the profits of religion`` and Webb`s ``the decay of Capitalist civilisation`` to Bukharin and Reed`s tomes on the soviet union.. china, africa, south east asia, he covered almost every area of the world. at same time he would order yeats poetry, huxley and Toynbeee. Such a breadth few even in the west possesed a name that comes to mind is churchill, but even they did not posses the knowledge of the East that Nehru did, from Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat and the quran to Tagore, Iqbal and Kalidas, from Mughal India to the aryans the man was a Tour de force.

His intellect and electicism was uncommon for an acdemic and unheard of in a statesman he was truly the embodiment of Plato`s Philosopher statesman.

But this didnt mean he didnt commit mistakes in his political judgement as every one else in those tumultous and momentous times did. He was higly emotional, in the same speech he would start shouting at the crowd and at another moment would unabashedly weep. he was arrogant and could be rude even a man like Bose (who was no stopic) called nehru`s politics emotional policy!

But he suffered also carrying the burden of partition, two incidents come to mind once when he went to hardwar some people whose parents had been butchered and sisters and daughters abducted or dead surrounded him, he told them it was futile to make arguments about excesses committed by hindus and muslims, one had to only think so many human beings were butchered there and so many in india. A young man slapped him, the prime Minister of India!! but nehru did nothing the young man shouted give me back my mother and my sisters, nehru`s eyes welled with tears, he told the young man his anger was justified but that it was the same for the muslims. the picture that is etched in my mind is of nehru sitting in the front seat of a police jeep trying to get the police constabulary to take action against the rioters, in the larger picture a futile but noble effort, since he was personally endangering himself.

the other incident is of congress workers going to rehabilitate abducted women with the press when one of them slapped a congress worker saying that is the freedom Jawahar promised us?

No one should assume this for a second that I am having second thoughts about Two Nations Theory. Two Nations Theory is not a discreet event in history but it is a process. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan was a great proponent of TNT, but no one ever heeded his advise. In my opinion the mergence of Two Nations took place on the day when Gandhi backstabbed Ali Brethern during the KHilafat Movement and separated his ways from Muslims. At that time Britain was severely wounded by the WWI and it just needed a shove to collapse in the Hindustan. But thanks to Gandhi that he served his masters so well that he extended our vassalage for another 30 years.

The elctions of 1938 were another eye opener for Muslims as to what HIndus had in store for them. But as I said TNT is the name of an evolving process that completed itself on August 14, 1947. My last few posts were intended to examine the pre-partion era, specifically 1939 - June 3, 1947, through the eyes of a vassal, whose fire in the belly would have made him do anything to beak the shackels and chains of British slavery.

Every day that goes by today, attests the fact that Quaid-e-Azam`s approach for a separate homelend was correct and wise. But if I say that today, it means that I am being wise after the fact. We have to go back in past and examine how people at that time would have felt.

Thanks, Hindvi. We all have our biases. There can be no better way of promoting the cause of historical truth than to present incontrovertible proof (statements and actions, not interpretations) that exposes those biases.

I am not a historian. But I think a true historian would present such compelling (preponderance of) evidence (again, words or actions) that no interpretation but one would seem reasonable to all those people who broadly share the definitions of right and wrong.

give me a few days maybe i will be able to provide you with a direct quote.

Hindvi

The reason many of us stay away from these debates because these debates have, over the years, become absolutely nothing more than attempts at myth-making. One understands the purpose, so one stays away.

Yours is not such a case. You clearly take positions that are at least plausible. But even you have to produce some evidence when your position may be questioned by others.

The belief that Nehru wanted/expected Pakistan to collapse may be taken for granted in some circles but it is great news to many. These latter readers need something to go on.

re: Hindvi # 139

Well, that`s great (from the point of view of discussions). If Nehru`s thoughts are so easy to arrive at, then it should be equally easy to quote his words (in speeches or in correspondences). After all, he was a more significant figure than the rightly quoted bhai parmanand (who thankfully is known to few lay people today).

Kaalchakra if you think i am spinning myths read the stuff yourself, i am under no obligation to foot note interacts on an internet site.

This evidence is not so hard it is available throughout in nehru`s correspondence, it doesnt require any Phd thesis. The congress was convinced pakistan would collapse in fact this was one among other reasons that sheikh abdullah chose india over pakistan.

Hindvi,

Although yours was the most proximate interact, you are by no means the only person to argue thus.

The least one should take the trouble to ensure is to include some (not verbatim) mention of people`s words, written or spoken, and their contexts, or of specific actions that led one to given conclusions.

Your # 132 is a step in the right direction. It allows others some objective basis on which to agree or disagree with you.

Otherwise it is all myth making. If we concede that history is all subjective myth-making, then we might, with equal reason, choose our pet myths and go home in peace.

hindvi:

The amount being withheld by Indians was, I believe, over Rs 50 crores (not 20).

It has become an article of faith among many, esp. Pakistanis, that Nehru and others wanted Pakistan to collapse. The evidence that I have seen quoted in this regard is flimsy, at best. I hope that someday some true researcher will go into the archives of Congress documents and correspondence of that period to provide more solid evidence, if any, of such thinking.

But whatever their initial thinking, this disappeared within days, if not weeks, of the actual partition. Whether or not the Congress leaders thought so, Hindus and Sikhs who left their houses under double locks and buried their jewellery and gold in hidden places in their homes certainly thought that they would return to their homes after the end of ``rollay`` (Panjabi for disturbance). The amount of bloodshed, population transfer and bitterness that ensued cured everyone of any such illusions within days and weeks of the partition. By the time of Gandhi`s fast, nobody was under any further illusion.

The issue of transferring of Rs 55 crores to Pakistan was tied to two other issues: one, the Kashmir war was on and it was presumed that Pakistan would use these funds to purchase arms and ammunition on that front. Secondly, Indians wanted to combine the issue of govt. assets with that of private assets; it was generally thought that the private assets left by Sikhs and Hindus in Panjab and Bengal were much higher than those of Muslims left in India. Patel, especially, was suspicious that once Indian gave those Rs. 55 crores, it will never get compensation for net private assets. As far as I know, this is what has happened.

it is not the british alone but also the congress which is to blame for not calling Jinnah`s bluff, in the british case at least it served their purpose. in the first half of the 40s they vigorously denounced pakistan, but never made it clear that if it were created bengal and punjab would be partitioned, this would have knocked some sense into the league leaders and secular muslims from these provinces. Nehru and other congress leaders even continued thinking of the league as an insignificant force as in 1937, they hadnt adjusted their mental picture or brought themselves around to thinking hard on this subject, they kept insisting their was no question of partition. later they rejected the cabinet mission plan and offered no alternative, this meant they knew india was heading for a partition from june/july 1946 onwards but they refused again to make partion boundaries public almost as if not talking about it would wish it away, and even though the congress top leadership had become increasingly amenable to partition gandhi and some congressman kept saying publicly that there would be none. at no stage did they call jinnah`s brinkmanship, wavell later tried but it was left to too late and even then not made public but to jinnah himself, when he showed him his provisional moth eaten pakistan.

The congress kept insisting on no pakistan and suddenly switched its position at the nth hour, no wonder the hindu and sikh refugees from west pakistan felt betrayed. but in the leadership`s defense no body could have imagined the cataclysmic violence and the complete cleanisng of populations.

the litreature is voluminous, and since i am not making notes, i cant foot note every statement, but as one reads one slowly makes a mental picture, it is altered and corrected with new information, the current level of my understanding is as I have presented it. if you dont agree go ahead and read the stuff yourself it is freely available.

Perhaps the most common phrases one reads in discussions of recent history are ..``Jinnah thought,`` ``Nehru thought,`` and ``Gandhi thought.``

Could everyone please start telling us how one reaches those conclusions. Are there any references or are we just making these things up as we go along?

Thanks.

``While Muslim League`s greatest supporters were in Muslim Minority Areas... the Pakistan demand had already taken root rather firmly in the Muslim majority areas... without Muslim League`s intervention... Example of this is the popularity of Rahmat Ali`s scheme and also of A Punjabi`s ``Confederacy of India``... (the name was originally called ``Pakistan`` but changed on Jinnah`s request ironically). So Muslim League in order to negotiate had to take up Pakistan... it was imposed on the Muslim League by us the people of the Muslim Majority Areas... and we are proud of it. ``

This is a myth.the muslim majority areas had supporters of the pakistan demand before 1940, but no where was it popular infact chowdhury rahmat ali`s scheme had been laughed of by jinnah himself, he had rudely turned the students away when they had come to his house in the erly thirties in england with this demand saying that they wanted to destroy the one good that the British had done in their 200 years in the subcontinent.

the Unionists who were the feudal/secularist party ruling punjab were afraid of coingress` strong centralising tendency, but even in the Lahore resolution sir sikandar hayat khan, the prime minister of punjab, who had been co-opted by jinnah onto the league platform, had altered the 1940 Lahore resolution, to include a center. It was jinnah who cut out the reference ostensibly as a negotiating strategy.

In 1942 Sir Sikandar wanted to publicise the fact that in case of partition and pakistan the punjab would also be partitioned, for until then most pakistan supporters believed it would come whole all the way to delhi, which was never a realistic possibility, but Jinnah had kept the whole thing vague, this would have taken a lot of the wind out of the pakistan movement, but Wavell prevailed upon him not to publicise it else it would weaken Jinnah and the league, there by strengthening the congress!!

it is true some like Iqbal suppoprted Pakistan in order to preserve muslim culture and establish a state on islamic ideals, which never turned out also there was an element of racism in this demand for it viewed, the racial characteristics, diet and clothes of these inhabitants of northwest india along with their religion forming a distinctive nation.

In bengal similarly fazlul haq, leader of the ruling Krishak praja party was virtualy arm twisted by jinnah who broke fazlul`s coalition ministry and made him dependent on league support in order to remain in power. later as he polarised the communities the muslim league won and jinnah could claim that the pakistan demand was but natural, a demand wchich had been virtually unknown to the muslim masess until 1940 was said to be created when the first muslim converted!!!

even later when Jinnah realised calcutta would not come with east bengal he agred to let bengal remain united and independent an understanding which suhrawardy and the bengal congress (sarat chandra etc ) had arrived at, but congres at the center did not agree, nehru also thought that east bengal would any way fall back into india, it had no other choice.

Compare two eyes of a bride with this

``The non hindu peoples in hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence hindu religion, must entertain no ideas but those of glorification of the hindu race and culture..... in a word they must cease to be foreigners , or may stay in this country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no priviliges, far less any preferential treatment - not even citizen`s righjts.``

the mahasabha at its ajmer session in 1933 ``Urdu is a foreign language which is a living monument to our slavery. it must be eradicated from the page of existence. urdu is the language of the malechhas which has done great harm to our national ends by attaining popularity in india.``

bhai parmanand told th same session of the mahasabha ``hindustan is the land of the hindus alone, and musalmans and christians and other nations living in india are only our guests. they can live here as long as they wish to remain as guests``

or Aurobindo ghosh in 1909 at Uttarpara `` i say it is the sanatan dharma (hinduism) which for us is nationalism. The hindu nationwas born with the santan dharma , with it it moves and with it it grows.``

Malviya was upset and was organising protests against the ``rights`` that the muslims had aquired against playing of music outside mosques during prayers.

The arya samaj wanted to reconvert all hindus who had been converted to islam by ``force``. the only problem was their definition included virtually all muslims. the remaining they would consider foreigners!!

Re: # 127
//....he was calling for constitutional gerry mandering to create effective safeguards....//

Well - gerrymandering is always a bad thing to do.....and naturally nobody liked his attempt to do so.....I mean what do you expect people to do? Go along with a bad idea just because Mr Jinnah wants it?

Mr jinnah had all wrong ideas and nobody liked it... it fell flat...

[ger·ry·man·der = To divide (a geographic area) into voting districts so as to give unfair advantage to one party in elections.]

Re: # 125 feroz

I am sure there were quite a bit of pushes and pulls in the pre-partition politics, as would be expected under such situations ...... and the players must have taken various temporary positions while jockeying for a final settlement of their liking , during those days of tumult and uncertainty..........You can call such transient positions as ``nuances`` and make a drama out of it - but those things should be ignored

The basic issue still remains very simple, really.....

[…studying Jinnah or his politics has nothing to do with the fact that Pakistan had emerged as a major demand in the Muslim Majority areas…]

They ASKED for it.

They GOT it.

O’ what a feeling! (But not Toyota!!!)

They are sure enjoying its ride!

The rides of their lives!

#120 Hindvi

[It must be said here that the first person to use the term two nations was sir syed, but sir syed balanced that by also talking of muslims and hindus as the two eyes of that beautiful bride called india so he seemed to follow the principle of separate but equal, more or less the League`s line.]

So separate but equal was a “good” thing – enough to “balance” this bad thing called partition – at last, a rare insight (or perhaps a “beautiful” (like a “bride”) insight) into the mind of the greatest of the great Hindvi!!

Yes, an act of REAL balance, and what an act of beauty – and how eloquently those results speak for themselves – if only the contemporary self-appointed representatives of Muslim intellectuals (the best and the brightest? (shudder!!!)) would not have to suffer the inconvenience of looking at them!

Too bad the great Hindvi did not have his beHIND parked in these parts in the U.S. during the time of the Jim Crow laws – he could obtain a good dose of the taste of those beautiful “separate but equal” laws for himself and what are a few lashes of the whip on a firmly parked hip for a good cause!

Way to go!

Mohar11...

Whatever he was asking- please show us that how much did he finally agreed to guaranteeing anything of the sort. He was calling for constitutional gerry mandering to create effective safeguards.. and not explicit communal reservation. The plan he agreed to was the brainchild of the Congress president... who lost his job later. The absurdity emerges from ignoring the nuances... because it was not the form but the substance.
So- the absurdity, even if we accept that it was indeed absurdity, did not exist in the plan that Congress rejected...


Hindvi...

You are looking at from the perspective of an Indian Muslim. It is quite different to be supportive of the League and being supportive of the Pakistan demand.

While Muslim League`s greatest supporters were in Muslim Minority Areas... the Pakistan demand had already taken root rather firmly in the Muslim majority areas... without Muslim League`s intervention... Example of this is the popularity of Rahmat Ali`s scheme and also of A Punjabi`s ``Confederacy of India``... (the name was originally called ``Pakistan`` but changed on Jinnah`s request ironically). So Muslim League in order to negotiate had to take up Pakistan... it was imposed on the Muslim League by us the people of the Muslim Majority Areas... and we are proud of it.

A disturbing trend I see is that some of our Indian friends assume that since we are providing a historical perspective (entirely from Indian authors btw) , we are somehow decrying Pakistan... make no mistake about it... studying Jinnah or his politics has nothing to do with the fact that Pakistan had emerged as a major demand in the Muslim Majority areas- which is why Jinnah was obliged to consider it...

Re: # 123 YLH

OK - that`s what I thought. Mr J was asking for approx 33% reservation for muslims..... That was in proportion of the population at that time, I think...

Whatever the number may be - such proportional representation system was neither possible nor desirable. So Congress did the right thing to reject such absurd demands....

Re: # 23

Mohar, the article by Yasser proves just how nuanced history really is and when people try to make history the complexity of the past`s reality into a simplification, the truth suffers.

Yes; the truth is out there and given the facts of life in the Sub-Continent, I have more faith in Agents Mulder and Scully to unearth the truth than in the combined historical brigade of Indo-Pakistani historians! :)

Besides, history is a soap opera played on a lavish and a grand scale and like any soap opera, the search for the truth in all the lies and deceptions, which mar it makes it an interesting past time. :)

Ciao

+/- given to chance... under joint electorates-which ultimately would emerge.

Jinnah completely agreed to a plan which provided for representation as is under 1935 GOIA. By no arithmetic could that be 50%.

At most it would 35% ... +/- 5

It is a lie that congress rejected the plan because it provided 50-50... a figment of Indian imagination... the plan was almost entirely the brain child of Congress President Azad to begin with and Jinnah agreed to it.

Re: # 116 YLH
//...All in all Seervai is right...//

Of course he is :) - it`s all congress`s fault....that is already proved beyond doubt.

But I wanted a simple answer to a direct question: How much was Mr ``J.`` asking for? just give me a number...

Golwalkar actually landed up in delhi around august 47 and looked upon the partition violence as a great ``opportunity`` he was organising the RSS in delhi and its vicinity to riot and push out muslims in which they largely succeeded in delhi except for a very small area around Balli maran and Nizammudin

dost mittar u are right hindu nationalists had been talking of two nations from around 1920 onwards Lajpat Rai even wanted punjab partitioned on that basis and the muslim areas of north west (pakistan of today) separated from the rest of the country. Many hindu nationalisists like savarkar, golwalkar wanted muslims out so that hindu culture and and ethos could be resetablished in india, to which they saw muslims as the biggest impediment. It must be said here that the first person to use the term two nations was sir syed, but sir syed balanced that by also talking of muslims and hindus as the two eyes of that beautiful bride called india so he seemed to follow the principle of seperate but equal, more or less the League`s line.

Re: Urstruly # 39

You seem to be mistaken.

Great Britain declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939.

If memory serves me right, I believe that it was a Sunday and the BBC radio would make the announcement of Britain`s declaration of war in the afternoon by carrying the speech of Neville Chamberlain, who was the Prime Minister at the time ``live`` from the Cabinet Room at 10 Downing Street. Later in the evening, Chamberlain would make a statement to British Parliament saying that since British ultimatum to Germany to withdraw its troops from Poland had not been heeded and that consequently, Great Britain was at war with Germany.

The date of September 27, 1939 would suggest the Soviet Union`s declaration of war on Poland in keeping with its secret understanding, with Nazi Germany to divide up Poland. The German-Soviet Union Non-Aggression Pact of 1939 signed secretly in Moscow by the German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop and the Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov allowed both nations to carve up Polish territory. Germany in order to prevent a two-front war had agreed to divide up Poland with the Soviets and three weeks after the German invasion; Soviets invaded Poland from the east.

Ciao

Romair

When I said Jinnah communalised politics, i didnt mean he created communalism, i correct a misimpression I may have created: communalism always existed in indian politics and yes the minorities were insecure because of the hindui cultural resurgence and communalism of the congres right and Mahasabha, RSS etc, but the major and responsible Hindu leaders like Nehru, Gandhi, Bose were not communal and Jinnah had ben included among the responsible leaders until he left India around 1930. but as a responsible leader he did not behave after 1940. he took up a demand of a community which was a minority within a minority, an influential section of the muslim community but a minority nonetheless and then propogated it. This strategy of his was not that of a responsible leader even though his goals may have been. on this account jinnah is guilty.


Manto i dont mean to convey that Jinnah only considered muslim majority areas as culturally/historically important but Jinnah was historically unaware, his being swayed by the specious arguments of the muslim nobility/bourgeoise show that he hadnt read much on Indian history himself as do statements like Pakistan was created when the first muslim converted.

I think he set out to negotiate a deal for all muslims that is why his anger at Azad and Ghaffar Khan, for their very presence in the congress camp negated his argument of standing for all muslims, but when push came to shove he showed both a lack of negotiating skill and an inability to strike a comprimise. Though it must be mentioned here that Nehru especialy took a very inflexible line, he fooloishly thought that Partition would be temporary and that Pakistan wouldnt be able to survive and would inevitably fall back into mother india`s lap, that is why patel`s reluctance to give pakistan the 20 crores for which gandhi went on a hunger strike. (Patel was thus angry with Gandhi as he was with the Nizam of hyderabad who gave that money to pakistan)

Nehru was also very impatient as was the rest of the congres leadership to get independence, in that hury and not imagining the horrific violnce that would follow, and being frustrated with the day to day difficulty in running the government they went for partition. so Jinnah, the self appointed sole spokesman would now be expected to adjust his position but he did no such thing he stuck to his extreme stand.

arstoo, hindvi:

I am so happy that Shahnawaz Khan was a fellow pothowari.

He was SRK`s maternal grandfather. On his paternal side, he is from Peshawar. Here is a link to the Refiff article from which I got that information: http://specials.rediff.com/news/2004/may/31sl02.htm

Excerpt:
``In one of the narrow lanes in an area called Shah Wali Katal that reminds one of the Jama Masjid area of Old Delhi stands a dark green haveli (manor house).

“Dad Sharukh kor de (This is Shah Rukh’s house),” says the cab driver. This is where Shah Rukh Khan’s father Taj Mohammad Khan was born.

Shah Rukh`s cousin Mansoor Ahmad -- or Toofi as the family calls him -- remembers the last time he met Shah Rukh -- in 1980 when he visited Peshawar with his father Taj Mohammad.``

You are confusing what he was asking for and what he accepted ... Inability to make this distinction will mean that 100 different statements would be produced to prove that he was asking for parity.

I think 40% is the most the Cabinet Mission Plan could provide... and that would mean that Muslim League would have to win all muslim seats- Ofcourse Congress was scared that Jinnah would rally this 35-40% and join together with scheduled castes and other minorities and form a majority in the long run... This too depended on the Muslim League`s ability to win the election however... which it probably wouldn`t in absence of an issue like Pakistan.

All in all Seervai is right... this was nothing but short sightedness on part of the Congress.

Re: # 112 YLH
//....The Cabinet Mission Plan that J. agreed to did not give Muslims 50% ...//

So how much was Mr ``J.`` asking for? 33% ?

Re: # 110

Well, when you are ruling the entire place - why would you want a separate nation, which will be smaller in size[ and no more kafirs of oppress and covnert]? ....That just goes against common sense...

But this ``separate nation`` concept comes from a different source - it`s an islamic thing - something about Dar-ul-islam and Dar-ul-kafir.... Former is where muslims rule and later is where kafirs rule... True and pure muslims are supposed to live only in Dar-ul-islam...

Pre-british subcontinent was already dar-ul-islam - so there was no need for a separate nation....But post-independence subcontinent was going to be hindu-ruled - so pure muslims cannot live there... And thus the ``separate nation`` theory[also called TNT] was born... a Land of Pure had to be created where pure muslims could live...

TNT was supposed to be just an means to an end - it was supposed to be discarded after Land of Pure was created...that`s what YLH tells us ...and that seems to be consistent with the islamic concept of dar-ul-islam and dar-ul-kafir....

++++

But most other pakis don`t want to discard TNT....even though lately, we see some curious developments...Lately we see strange emergence of some kind of self-pity... You know - before it was like ``jinnah created pakistan single-handedly with his type-writer and lawyerly arguments`` - but now that assertion was not being promoted forcefully no more - now it`s like -``well, jinnah had no choice you know, congress said this, congress did that``....pakis seem to be almost apologetic that partition happened...

At first I thought that`s a thing with the secular-type pakis - but lately I see even urstruly, the purest of pure muslims in chowk, has joined in.... So I don`t know what`s going on here...

arastoo u r right shah nawaz was from rawalpindi, I think his village was called Mator, he protected the sikhs and hindus of that village personally. later gandhiji called him to India where he helped organise relief for the muslims of delhi and clean the mosque`s which had been piled up with filth. I didnt know that he had stayed over.