Immigrants: Na Idhar ke, Na uddhar ke

It`s funny. As a first generation Pakistani-American who has never really lived in Pakistan but has visited frequently, I often feel a strange kind of nostalgia for my parents` homeland. It`s almost as if the longing that my parents feel for Pakistan, along with their crystalized, idealized notions of life there, have been passed to me. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to live in Pakistan. Would it be like going home, or leaving home?

Re: # 79
Hi Zainab,
You do have the right Batool. Good to see you here.. thanks so much for the kind comments.

Best,
Batool

Hi Batool,

(I hope I have the right Batool as in Maya`s sister in law). Well written. Hope to keep reading your work.

All the best

Zainab Dossa-Jabbar

Let me rephrase my comment:

Is anyone with a brain truly happy?

Re: # 64

``Is anyone truly and unquestionably happy where they are?``

True and unquestionable happiness exists only in utopia or nirvana - a non-existent land promised by Communists before they delivered hell.

Closer to earth, I feel, here in Canada I am in paradise on earth. It is as close as it gets. Religious, political and economic freedom; what more can one ask for?

Have you ever come across anyone thanking his government for letting him decide how many children he should have? Well, curbing family size is not unthnikable, it is the norm in China, repeat Communist China.

If Israel restricted Arab women to 1 child per family, world opinion would start jumping up and down like a wild pig. But where in Israel or the United States has any Muslim or Arab woman been stopped from a second pregnancy?

``You begin to love freedom a hell of a lot more once you have been denied it for a while?`` heard from a captive American.

Why don`t people like Tariq Ali, Noam Chomsky quit the capitalist west and enjoy the freedoms of the Communist societies they are enamoured of?

``in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence, East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise.`` - Noam Chomsky

64 - Stukes.... great response..... neither will i.

59 Bat:

Not really angry...... anyway as i said earlier, if you are willing to work hard everything will fall in place. 4 years is less as it takes 2 years just to get used to the Canadian system/culture.

As far as Taxi wallas..... well then make more than an average coder/BA/Doc. I met this Pakistani guy who was earning 8-9 G`s a month. He could afford to go back every year. I know a friend who had two masters came here and did not want to work for $13 - 15 an hour (starting job). Went to Chicago drove a cab for two years... came back to Canada and bought a number of shops in a strip mall in Calgary.... has a dry cleaner shop, a pizza shop. He has been here for only 5 years and done quite well.

To all would be immigrants..... burn all your ships when you come here. Come with the frame of mind that you`ll do anything to make it here. (now i don`t mean the wrong things)

I just hope that you do find a good job and most importantly speak well about this place.

gb #73 Criticism by ordinary citizens of wrong things said or done by public officials makes a nation stronger, not weaker.

Re: # 69
Tahmed:
Dont let these `Pakistani-hating` articles faze you or shake your belief in Musharraf or in Pakistan.

Dear Ms. Ali
We can have the best of both worlds, all you have to do is get all your family and everyone you care about to come to Toronto. Then both your problems are solved. The other choice you have is to make Karachi like Toronto, have a system that works, where you call on people who are shallow and gossip, you can change the system because you have seen it work. As a matter of fact it is your duty and obligation.

Cheers, and have a good time fixing Karachi, I will be there in December to inspect your work.

Picture accompanying the article below.

The link to #69


click here

washington post article on pakistan today.



This article is written by a Pakistani woman living in NY. What she writes is clearly read by a much broader international audience than if she was living in Pakistan. Particularly important given the lack of democracy in Pakistan.

After reading this all I can do is quote McMillan who said “you’ve never had it so good “.

My father came to UK in the fifties, he could’nt hardly speak a word of English, he cooked his own food, lived in shared bedroom. He sent most of his wages back to his family in mirpur every month, with no telephone, only post every month.

Re: # 66
good point.
That is what I try to tell people on Chowk, but my posts are always shot down like Gahuri Missiles.

In Amreeka once I was invlved in an accident and taken to the cruiser, cop gave me coffee and bought me a egg/cheese crossaint from DD.

In India I also had an accident on my scooter, hundreds of people watched me in agony but nobody dared to touch me, finally one old man decided to call a Taxi and send me to hospital. Then the Thullay(cop) shows up and starting demanding money from me, even though it was not my fault.

Amreeka is a classless society by far and large and cares of its people, no wonder fundoo Atif or fundoo JG both are accomodated here in all equality.

delhiwala: I too have met people who lived in these enclaves (pakistani-americans as well as ``american-americans``). None of them seemed to think of these enclaves as paradise - it was a place to build up some savings and then get the hell out. On the other side of the picture, when i was in jeddah on a visit, a saudi boasted to me about how at 30 he was made boss to a large number of americans who were much older than him and with far more experience - and he seemed quite pleased with his life.

Your description of delhi reminds me of the expensive residential areas in islamabad - where the only people you see on foot are ``naukar chaaker``, except early morning and late evening when ``sahab logs`` come out for their daily constitutional. Thus, here too the sahabs (like the saudi fellow i mentioned above) are happy and the serfs are not.

Both societies (the saudi and the islamabad/delhi type) are dysfunctional. Much better in the US where even the boss gets called by his first name and where the gas station guy looks you in the eye as an equal.

Re: # 58

ana –

``ananaas``

oye, sattianaas!

``Is anyone truly and unquestionably happy where they are?
``

Yeah. I am quite happy in the states. Would not live anywhere else.

Re: # 59

“People born/bred in the west who have south asian parents have it the hardest. Your skin is brown so you canNOT be American/Canadian..! To be constantly questioned about your identity is not easy.”

That sweeping statement is a jaundice-eye view and is not true. It only tells that you live on the periphery and are far from the center. Many desis are well integrated into the American/Canadian system and their identities never questioned.

#53 DM and Tahmed Janaab,

Those paradise enclaves in Saudia are only for Gora Logs. I know one Sikh Engineer in MA(Third Generation American), who took a job with an American company and lived in one of those enclaves. Saudi Police made his life hell every time he would try to enter the gates with his white-American wife into this camp. Finally they decided to come back to Boston, as per him- he would prefer death over living in Saudia.

In India, Delhi especially there are lots of colonies AKA Mohallas where rich people hire guards etc and fence themselves in, just like Army Cantonments. But I don’t think it will work in India.

Where my parents live in South Delhi, price of a 2000 ft house is almost same as Manhattan, however despite all the expensive nice looking houses, it does not feel the same as NY. These houses have one or two incumbents and a dozen Naukars, drivers, maalis etc. If you go out for a walk on the street, you only see poor Naukars roaming around. I wonder how quality of living can be improved (materialistically) without propagating the riches uniformly to everyone, just like in West.
Even the poorest New Orleaneans lived in better conditions than rich of Delhi in term of access to things etc.
I don’t know how it compares with Pakistan????

Romair#56:

There was a bit of an exaggeration in that description about the fantasy island in the desert. From what I have been told, these enclaves are exempt from local laws. As soon as you come out of them, a woman has to cover herself and not be seen at the driving wheel or with a bible in her car. But as long as you are within those enclaves, you can live the life of the West that you are used to.

Batool Ji,

Very nice read. I agree with the points made by kidbeegorilla in #47. Its usually us lot (the ones born and bred abroad) that they refer to as `na udhar key na idhar key` but actually most of us lot are actually quite happy where we are. I remember seeing what you describe with my parents.

I think my mum had an easier time with it simply cause she moved only after and only due to marraige, she knew her life was gonna be different after marriage regardless where she went, it is all gonna be paraia des be it the next shehir or the next country. However she couldn`t go back to see her family as often as my aunties did (they all lived in Pak or some middle eastern country)

I also think the distance you are from your original place makes a huge difference on your nostalgia and the amount of it and the ferocity with which you feel it. When i lived in Canada i used to somehow feel the physical distance even more, you are so much more aware of the fact that there are two big oceans between you and your country. The distance and cold eventually made me come back to the UK and i don`t foresee going to live anywhere in north america for a long time if at all.

In the UK there is a much bigger South Asian community, 1 Million in London alone. There are so many flights every day from any London airport to any South Asian city, there is so much coming and going, so many cheap flights etc (plus you get one month minimun vacation here as opposed to two saryhal weeks) that here you feel that `if i feel the need to go back i will go back soon, whenever, maybe even for a long weekend next month` (Lahore is only 7 hours away and if ppl can go to NYC for long weekends why not Pakistani ppl back to Pakistan?)

However, that long weekend rarely comes cause you just get so busy and more importantly you know you have that option, and like anything else when you have that option you don`t really `crave` it as much. The feelings of nostalgia are even less for my family in Dubai and Saudi Arabia (tho they actually do go back quite often!)

Anyways

Take care
A

One aspect of Canadian society that i did not touch upon is the lack of jobs which some of
the interactors have pointed out. Indeed what you hear about highly skilled south asians ending up taxi drivers in Canada is true. Although economics did play a role in our decision to come back to karachi, it wasnt a major player. Fortunately.
I was under the impression that armed with a canadian degree,i would have no problems finding a job in karachi. reality though is different. I have yet to find a wellpaid job in my field (and i have used the Pakistani-quitessential means to get a job i.e. ``source`` as well) but in Canada, simply by emailing my resume and following some rudimentary online instructions, i got an interview and later, a job with one of the best employers in the country. I have come to realize that there are no universal truths about either canada or pakistan vis a vis job hunting. But atleast in canada, merit gets one somewhere.

I tend to agree with #47 Kidbeegorilla: People born/bred in the west who have south asian parents have it the hardest. Your skin is brown so you canNOT be American/Canadian..! To be constantly questioned about your identity is not easy. And to feel lost in/no connection to the country your parents constantly talk about is rather hard.

doublec#23:
Why are you so upset baba? As much as it upsets me to deflate your sails, I am happy i came back. atleast i dont reminisce constantly and feel like im living a half-hearted life. Like i said, family obligations and other circumstances made us return. If it was up to my spouse, we would never have left toronto.

#36 Veeresh ji:
Toronto bhi kissi se kum nahi! Granted it does not have the pictureque beauty of Vancouver, or the charm of Marseilles, but hey it has an awesome film festival, Gerard Street and some of the best Italian food ever. Not to mention a spirited Left

#57 Tahmed sahab: I just visited the said country and I couldnt agree more.Your earlier post: I do not feel sorry for myself, in fact i consider myself fortunate to have gone through this experience.

Thank you all those who expressed their empathy and good wishes. means alot.

Batool

guddu:

well it`s all settled then. :)

--ananaas (!)

dm #53 thanks for clarifying. and since those ex-pat enclaves are like diplomatic enclaves which exist in any country, i think you will agree that you didnt really mean it when you wrote that ``Only Saudi Arabia has been able to do so.`` Saudi Arabia, with its dictatorial monarchy, is in fact the very antithesis of values like individual freedoms that have provided the soil I mentioned in my previous post. And indeed, India and even Pakistan (despite the military usurping of power in the latter) are miles ahead of Saudi Arabia in this regard.

Dost-mittar #53: ``where people can drink, swim, wear bikinis and fornicate to their heart`s desire as the local laws do not apply to them``

Are there really places like this, in the world!! Are there any in Canada? Could you give me some more info on them. I think I may have been wasting my vacations in Las Vegas and Islamabad.......

Drink, swim, bikinis, fornicate, no local laws...........the five things that make the world go `round, if you ask me........and that too, to one`s heart`s desire!!.....sounds like a dream come true..........I think you may be talking about heaven............

I hope you are not talking about Ottowa.........

Chal utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

sohniyaan watnaan noon, chadd kay aaunda naan
dard judieyaan daa, gall naal launda naan
aiyhou dil chandaa, aithay kadeen vee naan aanda
lay kay aiyeyaan majboorian

Chal utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

mehnat keetee aye, maal kamayaa aye
sub kujj milyaa aye, par watan parayaa aye
dil tay kee beetee, ajj sachi gal keetee
mainoon maar gaeyaan dooriyaan

Chal utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

Chal utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

sohniyaan watnaan noon, chadd kay aaunda naan
dard judieyaan daa, gall naal launda naan
aiyhou dil chandaa, aithay kadeen vee naan aanda
lay kay aiyeyaan majboorian

Chal utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

mehnat keetee aye, maal kamayaa aye
sub kujj milyaa aye, par watan parayaa aye
dil tay kee beetee, ajj sachi gal keetee
mainoon maar gaeyaan dooriyaan

Chat utth chalyae, daes turr chalyae

tahmed32:

Hazoor, I was thinking of the ex-pat enclaves created in places like Jeddah where people can drink, swim, wear bikinis and fornicate to their heart`s desire as the local laws do not apply to them. Of course, lately, Al Qaeda, has caused a little disturbance in this paradise.

dm #50 ``recreate a little America/Canada in a big city in India or Pakistan. Only Saudi Arabia has been able to do so.``

Disagree. Modern buildings and highways are merely the easy-to-get fruits of western civilization, and that is all Saudi Arabia has been able to do. The soil on which the fruit tree grows does not exist as yet in the Saudi kingdom, which is a desert in more ways than one.

Re: # 46

ana –

“i guess you weren`t amused”

On the contrary. “guddu” signifies a lot of pyar. But it’s true: ana hi ana!

batool:

It would be nice if we could pick and choose from the various cities. Sadly, this is not possible as cities/countries come in packages and you have to choose the one you like best. My own theory is that if people are happy where they grew up, they should stay there.

Six months ago, some close relatives in India got their green card and I gave them my unsolicited advice, which was that they would never be able to replicate their lifestyle in the USA. They have come any way to try out for a period of two years. Again, my advice to them is that, if they want to go back, they should do within six months, otherwise they would be `na idhar kay na udhar kay`. They will miss clean air and clean, uniterrupted water and power in Delhi just as they miss their friends and neighbours now.

I would say however that it is easier for people so inclined to create a little India or Pakistan in any big city in North America than it is to recreate a little America/Canada in a big city in India or Pakistan. Only Saudi Arabia has been able to do so.

Well...the NHL is back...so Canadian men are less gay now..

You can safely return to Canada...

#41 by malik99 on October 5, 2005 11:05pm PT



How long would it be before fast eroding liberties in America


Sure...In a few years, American and European women will be getting themselves raped to get a Pakistan visa...

America is doomed!!

Batool, are you canadian? if not, you are still udhar ki (my view). It`s desi canooks (born breed live) who are na idhar na udhar oulter poutler. i am sure being a guest worker is a bit difficult, you try to acclimatize to the new surroundings, then you have to go back and readjustto what you left behind. But it`s harder when you have yourself directly left nothing behind and are constantly forced to jam it up your face, as in the case of people like yours truly, born and bred elsewhere and forced to confrom to ideals and upbringings from some totally other wierd place. what connection do people like me have with south asia, except clothes and some cheap flicks/sitcoms? yet we are constantly bombarded by questions like ``where are you from``, from our own people as well as outsiders where? hell, HERE dude. And I don`t even have an accent! (I mean desi). i don`t know why our elder folk force this regression on us, but they do. k i gott a go, l8r.

and no, it takes a month to get your phone fixed up in good ole GTA. and have you seen the recycling mess the city`s teamed up with? haha. puke.

godot: #42

naaaaah. nothing like that. nothing actually. hum yahaaN kisi ke aisay kuch nahiN lagtay! LOL. ana hi ana. i guess you weren`t amused, eh?

Re: # 12
Kulharee u r funny!
I think the ideal situation would be to live in the west and keep visiting the east every now and then and try to be happy where ever u r.

Re: # 8

..This is one of a very rare times that a Pakistani living in Canada has not blamed something on Bush or the United States for her predicament. So congratulation for being the first...``

Yes. I congratulate him too. Even a brief stay in Canada should remind one that a high degree good governance, rule of law, orderliness, prsence of a governament that cares for people, institutions of justice for all , little corruption etc can been achieved elsewhere in a Land of Infidels too even though there is necessarily NO utopia in Canada.

Now time to move learn from others and build a good society in Pakistan.

There are 3 conventional wisdoms about this. (1) Cow has come home (Jithoo di Khoti, Uthay aa Khaloti); (2) Whatever catches your fancy (Different strokes for Different folks); and (3) Happy people will be happy no matter the place.

Ideally, one should have a lot of money and be able to do whatever one wishes. Go home every week. That will be great. When Johny Come Lately goes to his childhood place after living in some other place for some period of time, old things look new all over again, old friends feel closer and sexier than before… but the novelty lasts only for about a month or so. The best one can do is to be happy no matter where, and make the best of it. It doesn’t meant that one will not miss the places one remembers from earlier days.

Re: # 35

ana -

And what are you...annoo?

I (again) missed the punch line for #40, which is:

Regardless of the economic boom that east asia is experiencing, europe and america will continue to hold a charm for at least another generation. And that would largely be due to prospective immigrants` dreams for economic and personal liberties. How long would it be before fast eroding liberties in America in particular and west in general make them on equal footing with east asian countries? That is a huge TBD.

nazar #38 writes ``I think the charm of West has waned because of various reasons ``

I tend to concur with that.

Having lived and travelled in southeast asia for the past few months, i have come to this conclusion that the ``action`` is not in west alone anymore. Asia, specfically east asia, has plenty of action too. Thailand, although a developing country, looks very much like NYC in look and feel. Anything and everything you can find in US, you can find here as well. The labor cost is so low that the apartment complexes can afford to hire staff just to salute you as you enter and leave.

And then there is this massive behemoth on march - China. The magnitude of the influence that China has begun to exhert in Asia and beyond is still not adequately understood / covered in US. Along with itself, Chinese demand alone has lifted millions in the region from poverty into a middle class that demands imported coffee in the morning. In all my interactions with some of the very bright people, none (so far) have indicated that they look at europe / america as their promised land. Most of the technical / business trainings and seminars that employees need to undergo occur in China / Korea / Thailand / Singapore / malaysia etc. Cross border tourism is picking up - next week 11,000 chinese will come to bangkok on an employers-subsidized vacation trip.

However, there is one trend that I never noticed before - the slow but sure migration of europeans and americans into Asia. I have come across many americans (particularly from the West coast) who either moved permanently to east Asia or are working on contract here over the last 5-10 years due to job losses in silicon valley. Of course many old and fragile western men move here as well just to relive their youth by marrying a 20 something thai girl, but I am not including them in my above mentioned assessment.

In addition, due to visa restrictions in the west, many of the muslims are increasingly looking at these countries for tourism / business purposes. Middle eastern section of Bangkok is more full of people than anyone can recall from just a few years ago.

Batool, nice writing.
nostalgia of being away from home is usually found in expats,some are worried for their growing daughters and some for their parents.I think nothing like the home.

Batool

I think the charm of West has waned because of various reasons - 9/11, and that imperceptable feeling of being an outsider. The job market is almost saturated in the West especially for outsiders, regardless of citizenship. On the other hand, the economies of Asia & standard of living is constantly improving. With the new generation in, even the Government systems are gradually inproving.

You you may have noticed the springing up of good educational institutions and hospitals in Pakistan. The Newspapers are full of jobs in every category. A well educated person straightaway gets a job. In fact, there is a dearth of qualified people.

But our general phyche is to prefer washing plates or doing menial work abroad but disregard the oppurtunities back home.

Your life in Toronto must be tough. The daily routine of bringing groceries, cooking, cleaning, shoveling snow and doing each and everything yourself. Unlike back home.

Back home, it may be dusty, chaotic, dirty - so what. It is ours. We are used to the chaos, a bit of sifarish, a bit of leg pulling, a bit of family gossip - it is our culture. We mind other people`s business. It is in our system.

So my choice for even vacation is no more West but the good old poor developing chaotic countries. These are more familiar and in tune with my internal systems.

nhk

I liked this article.
Presently mr and Mrs YLH are having tag team boxing with hindu Kafirs ( As Mr. G called) like Mr. Beej and gentleman and I do not want to get boxed and knocked out. So I will have here little write up. I always like little things with out gravity which gives tension.
People always go back to their birth places and really strange not logical thing. I am born and worked Karachi. For me its good city, if you have reasonable job and living place and if you can keep away from alcohol and drugs. Its port city with nice moist weather. It has old character and charm. I can easily think all who lived once in Karachi will always like in some way. It has its ugly warts but you get used to it.

I have tried for usa but was rejected as they only want people who can support themselves and have too many tests for accepting. I feel bad as I would have liked to live in usa, uk etc real foreign countries with white and tall and rich people.

But foreign has also problems.
Many have gone from here and have no good life. They have to clean pots themselves and make laundry and hard work. I think if you do not pass needed exams there you are in problem. One of my friends son was doctor and he tried lot but could not pass exam of USA doctors course and he has to work as ambulance attendant and has to work with stupid people and low level people. If you have no good job in foreign land then its not good as then you are useless and children hate father as he is not competant. It will never happen back. Also there lots nice army officers are reduced to nigh centries or liquir clearks at little shops which have lots of dark skinned people and they hate browns and they some times shoot browns. Also there managers at fast food have work all time standing and even sometimes sweep floor. I have heard the sytem is so mean that manager also has to pay to eat.A selfrespecting manager will not do such things in Karachi.
Many browns( deshi) get in alcohol. Hindu eats beef and muslim eats pig Sandwitches and both drink liquior and smoke Ganja and stuff.
The real misery is to be parent. If you have daughter then you are dead by worry. There so many different types there and lots of dark skinned people. And lots of Desi are under stress and can not tell daughters not to talk to such people as at that age they like to wrong things and defame all Khandan. You can not do anything there as laws are not paying attention to honor and Khandan that individual choice and worst things have happened. Some nice family daughthers have married dark skinned people and produced hybrid type children and family is in shame. Boys are better in sense thae have sense. They may be antirecist but will not date dark skinned people or marrying. But usa big white man do same stuff. Like clinton is sexmaniac and has mentality of male cat and antirecist and lover of darkskinned people. He only chases white women though love dark skinned people. But really he does not love them but idiots take his word, i do not believe he is like most desis like watermellon green outside red inside. He has never chased dark skinned woman or looked at any with lust in his heart.
Also young people getting in Zina sex etc. Karachi is good place to raise children and they can marry little dark MQM but never you have to be ashamed to marrying dark skinned people. Now things are changed secular modern look for dark skinned life partner. Same stuff in real every desi man and woman wants fairer life partner. This is big problem. Any ways karachi is fine compared to other places to raise children and keep safe from drugs, zina sex, secularism and other bad stuff. Lots of parents cry why they became foreign when their children do above all wrong things and they die at heart by sadness.

Re: # 3, hey Romair, that`s good to hear, you going back to where you started from, are you going to migrate back to India then? Validation, finally.

+++

Author writes an interesting article but then if the ``udhar`` was Toronto, I can understand. Now if only ``udhar`` had been, say, Vancouver BC or Marseilles, then it would have been different, right?

godot,

i have this wild urge to call you guddu right now!!! *evil grin* please get your barf bag ready.

LOL

batool Ali
Interesting topic. rather creative. yes, that is the ugly side of Karachi, but, I think sense of beloning is the most satisfying sense which overcome all the ugliness.

Same is with me, so, many times I thought of going back to Pakistan.But, I am scared to return.....

I some how missed the punch line of the first para of my post #32.

The punch line is this: Many of the ``momentum immigrants`` who immigrate not for genuine economic / education / social reasons, but just because others in their neighborhood are doing the same, end up having second thoughts about their decisions.

That would not be the case with ``genuine`` immigrants, since they have solid reason for their decision and know that they are far better off in their new country than in the old.

While most of the immigration from countries like Pakistan to Canada etc occurs for genuine economic, educational and social reasons, there is also something called ``momentum immigration`` - that is, people pack their bags and immigrate just because their neighbors or friends are doing the same.

Also, given that Ms. Batool moved to Pakistan after 4 years, I am assuming that by then she had already obtained her Canadian citizenship. This perhaps also played a role in her decision to move to Pakistan, given that now she has an option of coming back to Canada if she ever regrets her decision.

Re: # 30
...samb,doublec,jahanzeb,temporal,batlee,chandni,rahul,banjara,wanderer,romair,english poet whose name i forget,... too many desis in toronto...anyone for new foundland...?

doublec:

Land is like mother to most of the poeple. They come in all types. If you have a bad mother, you do not have the option to get you a new one. For normal poeple, nostalgia is a way to show that association, even if you aren`t able to go back.

aarzi bhai, I mean brother temporal ,

where in toronto do you live and what do you do for a living?

Havent you all ever heard of - too much familiarity breeds contempt
I rests my case.

Re: # 27

Happiness is a state of mind. If you believe what you need you have, you`re happy.

Re: # 21

Even Shakespeare wasnt completely happy....and dont even ask what Christopher Marlowe`s mood was....the human condition is based on temporalites of belonging and unbelonging....

Re: # 19

ali -

Agree. You`re forgetting ``shandy,`` ``binoo,`` and ``farzoo.`` I`m surprised it`s ``bat`` and not ``battoo`` :))

Barf.

i grew up in kenya and new york and will always be nostalgic about these places wherever i may go.... even if they may not be the most ideal places... it`s only natural for a person to be emotional about the places where they have the most memories.

karachi is that place for you, and i think it`s great you went back, and who knows, you may end up back in toronto or elsewhere in the future... and i`m sure you`ll make a place for yourself wherever you go

good luck

doublec:

having met both you and bat i know where you guys come from...

baat wohi dil ki hay...you are happy and content here today ... good for you ... who knows ... she may be back here later?

behram:

thnks

and yes, even more humbly....


t

Post 4 SAMB,

I totally agree with you. I am one of those that totally love this city and the country. I can never think of ever going back even though i have the opportunity to do so.
I know that hard work will get me places in TO however the same cannot be said for Karachi.

I too don`t have any immediate family here and whenever i miss them i just call them....

Bat, sorry but i am finding it extremely hard to accept your decision.... even though i know that it is not my business to say so.

I do know that many desi have problems when they come to Canada and it takes time to adjust....... I so wish that i had the resources to create an organization that could help these individuals ease into the city, make people realize that no matter what position you had back home.... you still have to prove yourself here.

To be honest i have seen individuals that knew their trade and were hard working and within a few years have been successful.....

It is easy to be successful here than in Karachi.... at least the satisfaction one has here is that they succeeded because of their own will and not with the help of others.....

Bat, sorry to sound mean but it really disappoints me when someone moves back home..... i have in the past helped a few individuals, tried to make their lives easy...... but stories like yours deflate my sail.......

Re: # 2

Dear T:

You are absolutely correct. It is mostly about one`s inner self.

Most humbly and respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: # 20

I am, for both who I am and where I am.

Is anyone truly and unquestionably happy where they are?

#2 by temporal
``bat:
here is a cyber hug from TO ``

Oh man! can chowk staff stop the vomit inducing antics of this peer-e-fartoot... saminooo, scoutooo, bat, cyber hug...huh? abay go hug bhai urstruly before he has done his miswaak or unkill hamidm after he has glugged his bottle of merlot!

Re: # 16
dahmed te Tahmed.

Tahmed Sir Jee,
Cloning kar rahe ho kya?

Re: # 16
dahmed te Tahmed.

Tahmed Sir Jee,
Cloning kar rahe ho kya?

being happy requires appreciating what you have. you have a family you obviously care for in pakistan, and you are able to live and work in canada with all its advantages that you correctly note. and you have the means to travel between the two in comfort, thanks to airline travel.

so, i think you should count your blessings instead of feeling sorry for yourself. then you will be happy when you are in pakistan and happy when you are in canada. or anywhere else.

Batool, an irrelavent question: Are you a Bohra?

I have been living in Europe since the past 4 years and I feel good here. I also feel at home in Pakistan. It depends on the person I guess...

Re: # 11
Jab traffic Jaam mai Taxi Fuss Jaiyega aur 120+ F mai pasaaena niklega tab yaad karega Amreeka ko.

aho!!

Batool,
Well said, rare to see someone writing from heart. I think almost all of the DESIs go through this one way or another. You cannot live in two boats though.

Na Khuda hi Milla Na Wasal-E-Sanam
Na Idhar ke Rahe Na Udhar ke rahe
(I think my uncle`s servant said that)

You did not mention another aspect of life in Canada(not so much in USA), i.e. Economics, lack of jobs etc. You often hear that doctors, engineers are driving cabs in Canada to make a living.

My summary is this::
You will find everything in USA but your childhood friends and relatives.
Be an enterpreneur and start something of your own rather than live in Job scene.
Try to bring your culture here with your social gatherings etc.
Do visit twice a year to your country and experience it first hand.

I have met many Indians who actually came back to USA after going back after immigrating.

Re: # 11

AAshee... And I hope that you don’t disappoint your motherland as well.

Have a good trip. Make sure to pack a couple of Burkas along. The blue ones are in these days.

Good article. I enjoyed reading it. After having lived in the US for 15 years I share the same nostalgic feelings that the author talks about. I shall be returning back for a short visit for the very first time and i am just hoping that mother-land does not disappoint me.

Here is a poem from one of my fav authors on the subject:

This is after his return to Panipat, having finished his studies/stay in England and US.

Beyond - Beyond Panipat!

Well, I could have done worse

Than break my studies and come
Back home from Inglistan.
Punjab, pandits, panir,
Panipat and pan,

Family, music, faces,
Food, land, everything,
Drew me back, yet now
To hear the koyal sing

Brings notes of other birds,
The nightingale, the wren,
The blackbird; and my heart`s
Barometer turns down.

I think of beeches, elms,
And stare at the neem tree.
My cousin slices a mango
And offers it to me.

I choose the slice with the seed
And learn from the sweet taste,
Well-known and alien,
I must be home at last.

By- Vikram Seth

p.s: I guess there is no perfect place really... we can just try to make the best of living where it makes most sense to be at a particular time... goodluck!

Very nice article. You sort of gave words to many of my feelings. After spending 3 years in toronto, I have the same sentiments.

This is a much better place to live
This place has given me so much
but
I want to go back some day....

And I think 4 years is a great time to go back. Congratulations !

Jahanzeb

This is one of a very rare times that a Pakistani living in Canada has not blamed something on Bush or the United States for her predicament. So congratulation for being the first.

Talented people move to Canada to become average.

Zakk: Yes there is a level of numbness. Of going through motions. of becoming used to this life all over again. But thats my ambivalence right there; i like this life and yet i dislike it.

Temporal: Cyber hug back! Yes youre right - i was fortunate to have the option. Dil tau yahan lagta hai maggar T.O ki bhi yaad aati hai.

Romair: I think very few people immigrate due to nostalgia. i am no exception. And i wouldnt change my immigration experience for the world

samb: thanks very much :). we had a little chowk group in Toronto...you should have gotten in touch. i agree with you that so much about pakistan is archaic and just plain wrong and yet there was a pull to return. I guess it`s a matter of priorities...

godot: I have an uncle (who has not lived abroad) who always says ``yeh america, britain sub bekaar hai,wahaan kuch nahi rakha hai, apna mulk apna hota hai`` and im sure you mustve heard the ``first-grade-citizen-in-pak/third-grade-elsewhere`` citizen argument. Not for a second did i feel like a second or third grade citizen in Canada. But i refrain from arguing with him because, as you say for a lot of people, ignorance is bliss.

forgot to congratulate you on the very well written article. Reading it was like going through the story of my own family. Scared me for a bit. :-)

Batool –

Karachi is much better if you would`ve never left it or never lived in the West. You’d have then nothing to compare Karachi with and to you Karachi would`ve been fine the way it is. You would have been much happier that way. Your problem is exposure. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

``Some of these flaws were not new to me, but sitting miles away in Canada, I had created a utopian picture of Karachi, neatly contructing it by conveniently eliminating the ugly.``

Every immigrant does the same especially during the first couple of years or so of the move...

We moved to Toronto some sevenish years ago and always thought we`d go back and settle in Isloo or Karachi. Earlier this year it hit me though that unless I managed to win the lottery without buying a ticket, I don`t think I could move back and live a decent life there. And I`m not even talking about owning the biggest house on the street or having the swankiest batmobile. It is the small things like being able to pay your bills online, not being jerked around when you go to a government office to have stuff sorted out, etc that I`ve learned to take for granted. You need to buy this kind of customer service back home and I simply don`t have the resources to do that. I don`t want to grease a clerk`s palm just to be able to pay the electricity bill on time.

As opposed to most Pakistani Canadians I`ve met, I love this country. Canada and Toronto particularly have to some of the most accepting and open places on this planet. Some months ago, I met a brigadier sahib who was working as a dealer in the illegal dish business. He started complaining about the discrimination and racism rampant in this country and how immigrants are marginalized professionally, etc. He concluded his bulletproof argument by praying to the Lord to let this country burn from Quebec to Prince Charles Island. At that point, I realized that there was no point of arguing with him and took my leave.

I have moved and migrated between three countries. And am trying to complete the circle by (hopefully) going back to where I started from. Each move has proven to be the best decision - a decision from which I gained far more than I lost.

If one is going to make huge decisions, in life, one has to ensure they have a rock solid purpose behind them. They cannot be just out of nostalgia or emotion. As long as one has a rock solid purpose, one can adjust around the surroundings - both good and bad. Having an achievable goal in front of one`s self as the motivator of the move, is important. Or having a solid reason for leaving a place...........

bat:

here is a cyber hug from TO

baat idhar ki oodhar ki nahiN hay

baat is dil ki hay!

jahaaN dil lagay wahaN raho

You are lucky, you have that option

lve

t

Interesting..there is a tinge of numbness and ..disappointment in this article..personally I`ve always believed that when one immigrates from one country to another..we are mentally left with a frozen condensed picture of what was once home. You see this on chowk like any other place..you have Indian and Pak expats who are still stuck in the old days of anti pak or anti India..it`s like they are frozen in the past ( you will probably see a few of those people responding as well and you might understand what I mean)..remembering slights and hurts of a bygone time which have no relevance to the present.

Readjusting to Pakistan is an achievement in itself, because you are not a cog in the wheel in that system..you basically have to create your own wheel and world to manage!