Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

Hindi was mandated to be India`s national language but fortunately for them no one dared impose it.

Turkey and France are largely monolithic countries with Turkey having some Arab and Kurdish speaking population... let me remind you - Pakistan has several languages not just Urdu... Let me give you a better example... it is a little known Jinnah spoke Gujrati and Cutchie- perhaps even better than he spoke English- (Roses in December by M C Chagla) ... should he have started speaking Gujrati while addressing crowds in Lahore or Delhi? This is why it is unfortunate that the Urdu-speaking lobby prevailed on Jinnah to declare Urdu as the national language. I have no problem with Urdu- but it is not the language of the majority and in our federation no one ethnic identity should have veto on the issue of language ... for that is patently against the principle on which we got the country.

I think Urdu is an awesome language... and despite being a Punjabi, but national ID card lists Urdu as my mother tongue (ironic because Punjabi is listed as my parents` mother tongue) - however it won`t work. I certainly speak and write Urdu better than most people here... but I know that it won`t work-- It just won`t... and any attempt to do so will result in terrific disaster.... not just economically and commercially but also nationally...

So let English an alien language be the language of Pakistani leaders... for then Baloch or Sindhi or or Pathan or even a Punjabi would have no objections.

-YLH

Manto

Is Hindi not India`s national language? Anyways, the issue isn`t India and their linguistic issues, it is us (Pakistan) and our linguistic issues - Vajpayee was cited solely as an example. We don`t have the complexity of India and its many languages, therefore its not so much of an issue for us if Urdu is the national language, as it might be for Indians if Hindi is theirs.

Plus what is right for India isn`t always right for Pakistan. Yes it is important to learn English as it is the worlds new dominant language. However, to give it precedence over your own is wrong.

Many ppl use the excuse `Urdu is not technically advanced enough` my reply to that is that we should make it so then.

In Turkey and France there are institutes that create new words and terminology as it is needed instead of borrowing blatantly from English without any modification, as we do. An example we should all understand, the Turkish word for Mobile Phone is Cep Fon (Pronounced Jeb) as in Pocket Phone, it makes sense. In Pakistan we say Mobile Phone (or a variation of it) and transliterate it directly into the Urdu Script, resulting in ugly formations of hard T`s and D`s for many words.

There are many words like Phone and Internet that are universally used and accepted, fine fair enough, however, we should develop our own language and encourage its usage as opposed to using bad English.

When there is pride in your language and you use it, other people also learn your language, and cater for you too. Example, You get Microsoft everything in Arabic what do you get in Urdu? (there is no technical issue here, as the scripts are similar)

Is there an Urdu/punjabi/Sindhi/Balochi/Pushto Windows produced by Microsoft? There are many add on`s etc, often produced by third party companies.

When you go to Turkey or France you see Turkish or French keyboards. When you go into an internet cafe in Istanbul the version of windows you encounter is Turkish not English. I live in the UK but my mobile phone gives me Turkish as well as languages as obscure as Danish, language options.

All these technical companies cater for all these other languages but not Urdu, because our ppl who do use technology (and they are increasing everyday) would prefer to use English, as they don`t see their own languages fit enough for this `madern cheez`, nor do many of them see the people who speak these languages fit enough.

Even national institutions dont have Urdu version websites, pia has zip on their website and their magazine is mainly in English with two articles in Urdu, Indian Airlines on the other hand do have a Hindi website (http://indian-airlines.nic.in/scripts/index_h.asp) currently under construction/renovation - They have had a fully functional one in the past. How are govt. websites supposed to be of any use if they cannot cater to those ppl who they are meant to serve? I have not seen one Pakistani govt. website in Urdu, here is the link to the main page of Govt. of Pakistan website http://www.pakistan.gov.pk/ - its ALL in English not even a few pages in Urdu. Its almost as if the site was made as a showcase for goras, and not to supply Pakistani ppl with relevant information.

Though these attitudes are changing slowly as many `pindoo` ppl get access to technology, and it is when these ppl get access that respect for our languages will increase, as the govt. starts to find the internet a good way of distributing River and Crop information to farmers in Punjab, Sindh etc. It cannot expect to do so in English. It will have to do so in the common language of the common man.

ally..

I don`t think this is a way to judge a Prime Minister... pray tell why should a Keralite Indian, if elected Prime Minister, know Hindi. Romair is being cute with his post (his next post will be an unrestrained and abusive attack on the Quaid)... but English language is the only language suited for the leadership of South Asia... unless ofcourse you want to isolate the leadership to Hindi and Urdu speaking folk.


Re: Atif`s ilog

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nonsensical or otherwise, including Atif sahab.

I refrained from commenting on the Youhanna issue for several days, despite provocation from our Indian friends, but it was after Ijaz Gul`s convincing testimony regarding the rather shady events vis a vis Pakistan Cricket Team of early 2000s, I concluded that it was under duress.

Here I must say that even if what Ijaz Gul said was untrue, still I`d call it duress for one cannot describe the atmosphere of the Pakistani cricket team as very cordial to non-Muslims or even to Muslims who may not toe the line/religiousity set by the senior players. There is NOTHING more insulting to human intelligence and endeavor than the captain of the Pakistani cricket team to go and infront of millions declare that ``Almight Allah`` was actually siding with the Pakistan cricket team. I consider all of this duress- that God sides with only Muslims- that Pakistani cricket team plays for Islam etc etc.

Ofcourse I admit ab initio that none of this will satisfy Atif - well none of it is meant to satisfy him- infact this is simply a response to an ill-thought and misplaced allegation.

Yours sincerely,

Y.L.Hamdani

I do agree with Romair that our national leaders should speak in our national language. I don`t know much about Vajpayee or Indian politics, but when i heard him speak to his nation in perfect Hindi, i was pleasantly surprised and felt a little pride for Indians.

The vile mixture of Urdu with English words thrown in, that do not fit or flow in any way with Urdu is horrible, and to hear it from your leader is even more disappointing. To top it off, the English words are taken directly, without any attempt to Urdufy them so that they flow with language. This creates an ugly awkward sounding speech.

The lack of development and progress of Urdu and other South Asian languages, and the deep desire to speak anything other than those languages, to me, shows low self-esteem, and lack of pride and confidence in ones culture. It shows the emotional and mental state of our people and leaders.

I am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter. So for example, although Mantolives writes in perfect english with hardly even a spelling mistake, yet his posts are some of the most non-sensical ones posted here. So obviously, having a solid command of english is not helping him.

Just the other day he opened a thread on unplugged in an english more suited for prep and Ivy league educated elite than a self-styled aspiring lawyer in Lahore. But then he crapped all over when he suggested, using his full command of language and an astonishingly powerful vocabulary, that Yusuf Yohanna converted to Islam under ``duress``. And that his conversion was a ``slap in the face of every Pakistani``.

I tapped on my very limited english language command to eek out three words: ``Please provide evidence``. Unfortunately, despite his vast grasp of English and bottomless reservoir of vocabulary, Manto has yet to come up with an answer to that.

English is a language that is ALIVE..............it grows, and there are a few who hark after the puritan bearings of this language.......infAct every one is welcome to adopt it to their requirement...make new Chinglish, hinglish, bengalish ........we do not have to fear mullahs or dictators to come down upon us for doing so........and we have a great meta linguistic and semantic tradition in English literature.................we have a full hermeneutical school in this language.................we have great linguistic philosophies which are still theorized and debated..............and all those Urdu-Hindi idiots who politicized these languages thanks to the TNT paved the way for the regressive `pure` path of these languages than following the paths that was opened by Ghalib and Faiz...........................

The only thing wrong with pakistanis (and indians) speaking english is that more often than not, they make mincemeat of it. This includes:
* stupid regional accents: punjabi/up english is possibly the worst, but kannadigga, bong and tamil english come close
* stupid faux accents: worse than regional accents, these call centre yokels are responsible for inflicting this horror on us- drawls and clippedness galore, punctuated by the odd reversion to the regional accent, a la Kholi (sic) in Bride n Prejudice.
* literal translation from language of thought.
* punctuating English with regional expressions (bad enough) AND passing it off as cool, e.g. the Hinglish craze. The only thing this proves is that you are equally bad in both languages. I know a guy who speaks to American clients using words like ``yaar`` (friend), ``ki`` (that), etc. And he finds it strange when they don`t understand him.
* using fancy terms without really understanding them.

romair:

i think we will have to disagree on this one, without argument, because you are already convinced, whereas i do not believe that one language or its literature are superior to another. . . which is what you are implying. english is sparse in its constructions, yes, in comparison with most languages of the world, not just urdu. but that doesn`t make it inferior. i have read novels in english that are lyrical and very powerful in their descriptions.

i love urdu and punjabi as well, what i know of it, and i would love to speak it as often as i breathe. as for anyone matching ghalib in english, why should anyone match ghalib? poetry is in the eyes and ears of the reader/listener, and who is to judge that coleridge, or shelley, or donne or the 17th century poets, or the writers of the renaissance such as shakespeare and marlowe did not write powerful poetry? so yes, you can make that assertion if you like. i`m not going to carry this discussion much further because i don`t agree with you.

behram #13: ``If all in the group can talk and speak fluently in Urdu, then of course Urdu should be spoken. However, if someone can not speak that language fluently then the next most accepted language should be spoken.``

This is true for normal day to day conversations. It is not true for national events. When one is representing one`s country, in a leadership position, one should always speak in the national language. One speaks as a representative one`s own countrymen. And their understanding is the most important. Everyone else can listen to a translation. Considering the fact that barely 5% of Pakistanis can speak English, Urdu should be used.

It is truly sad to see Urdu get the second rate status it has gotten in Pakistan, at a social level.........

``Loudness has no place in modern day enlightened group``

What exactly is a,``modern day enlightened group?`` How can one apply for a membership in this group? And who decides who is enlightened and who is not..........``

``You must not be too serious with such an assertion. Are you?``

Yes, quite serious. Urdu has always seemed to me, to be far more flexible and powerful in its wordage than English. One can bend and twist and connect and augment Urdu words, far more complexly and powerfully than English words. This is why Urdu poetry rhymes so easily and beautifully. English is extremely limited in that regard.....

English prose can be very powerful. But prose is more dependent on the thought process of the writer. While poetry is greatly dependent on the flexibility of the language, as well. I have yet to see anything in English poetry that matches Ghalib..........

Ana #14: ``romair must not have read much in terms of english literature. he must not have read shakespeare, or byron, or christina rossetti, or wordsworth``

I was a C to C- student in both English and in Urdu. And I have been in two professions -military and Computers - where one`s writing skills end up being very weak. Which is probably why I cannot write well.

But I do read a lot. An awful lot. Everything from my wife`s make-up magazines to mathematics books. It`s like a drug addiction. In fact, while I have met far more intelligent, talented and accomplished, etc. individuals than myself, in my life, I have yet to meet anyone who reads even close to as much as I do. Perhaps it takes me far longer to understand and comprehend things, than others. Due to which I read a lot.

I have read Shakespeare and Wordsworth, from the list you have mentioned. They never appealed to me at the level the Urdu poets did. Or the Punjabi poets, for that matter.

I have yet to read anything better than Punjabi Sufi poetry and Ghalib, in my life, in the three languages I can understand.........It is my latest addiction. Nothing in English poetry ever proved addictive. Although the greatest speaches, movies, and songs (commercial, not classical) I have heard are in English. But again that is more due to the individual than the language.......

Shakespeare would have been even superior to what he is, had he been writing in a more powerful language like Urdu. And Ghalib would not have been half the poet he was, had he been writing in English, which would have limited him. In fact, Ghalib`s best works are actually in Persian - a language I cannot understand. But perhaps Persian gave him even more flexibility............

romair must not have read much in terms of english literature. he must not have read shakespeare, or byron, or christina rossetti, or wordsworth. . . . these folks must have been too bland for his taste.

oh well, different strokes. . . .

Re: # 12

Dear Romair,

Language is used not only to communicate what one wants to communicate, but also to be accepted as a part of the group. If all in the group can talk and speak fluently in Urdu, then of course Urdu should be spoken. However, if someone can not speak that language fluently then the next most accepted language should be spoken.

Whatever language one uses should be used with decency and care. Loudness has no place in modern day enlightened group. And then of course choice of words. For example, nowadays if something is ``difficult``, we have started using the word ``challenging.``

You write...[There is nothing in English that can match Urdu`s poetry.] You must not be too serious with such an assertion. Are you? Then, of course, you write... ``my taste``.

Respectfully submitted,

B

I, personally, think all Pakistani leaders should speak in Urdu, at home and abroad. It is, after all, the national language........I have never figured out this fascination amongst everyone in Pakistan, on rating people by their English language skills. Personally speaking, I never speak English, unless talking with someone who cannot understand any other language, or on Chowk. I would, much rather, speak Punjabi (or Urdu). My parents, aunts, uncles etc., all speak Punjabi in their homes.

There is nothing in English that can match Urdu`s poetry. And their is nothing in English that can match Punjabi`s humor and vulgarities. The English language, much like English food, being too bland for my taste.

Along with this, others who should not try to speak English, and Pakistani cricketers. After all, do the English cricketers try to speak Punjabi? Granted Inzamam`s English is quite a bit better than Vaughn`s Punjabi, but still.......

Most of all, the one individual who should not speak in English is George Bush. I have never heard a worst speaker of one`s own language, or anyone else`s language, in my whole life. If such are the communication skills of the, ``Leader of the Western world,`` then I think the rest of us non-native English speakers have nothing to be too worried about......

Re: # 8 Kulharee

``The Russian intelligentsia with an English of a 4th Grade Pakistani standard gets more respect in the west than an empty-headed Oxbridgian.``

So true. In the new global village, people respect content, not accent. Check out the article below. Lakhmi Mittal is respected by Chinese, Koreans or east europeans for the value he will add to their economy, not his accent or indian background.

Regards.

October 2, 2005
Mittal Steel Eyes Expansion in India, Turkey
By REUTERS
Filed at 2:14 a.m. ET

SEOUL (Reuters) - Mittal Steel Co. (MT.N) (ISPA.AS), the world`s top steel maker, expects shortly to sign a deal to build a large plant in eastern India, its chief operating officer said on Sunday, after the company said it may raise up to $3 billion to fund expansion.

Malay Mukherjee also said the company was in the final stage of bidding for Turkey`s largest steel producer, would begin mining iron ore in Liberia next year and saw potential to expand its presence in China, the world`s biggest steel consumer, after acquiring a stake in the country`s eighth-largest producer. Foreign companies, including South Korea`s POSCO (005490.KS), want to set up steel plants in India to turn rich iron ore reserves into steel, demand for which is expected to boom with India`s economy, Asia`s third-largest, growing at some 7 percent a year.

The country is growing. Opportunities are opening up and policies are tuned to having additional investment,`` Mukherjee told Reuters in an interview.

He said the company would sign a deal ``sooner rather than later`` to mine iron ore and build the steel plant in the eastern Indian state of Jharkhand. Government sources have estimated the project would cost $11.4 billion, but Mukherjee did not confirm the expected cost.

It will be an integrated plant, starting with at least one blast furnace. The optimum size of a blast furnace today is between 3.5 million and 4 million tons,`` he said, adding the plant would ultimately produce 12 million tons a year of steel.

Rotterdam-based Mittal Steel said on Friday it may periodically sell up to $3 billion in debt, shares and other securities, and would use the proceeds for general corporate purposes, including major capital spending and acquisitions.

FIRST IN INDIA

The Jharkhand project would be Mittal Steel`s first plant in India, the birthplace of its London-based founder and chairman, Lakshmi Mittal.

Jharkhand`s top bureaucrat, Chief Secretary P.P. Sharma, has stated that the government would not allow its ore to be exported. Mukherjee said the company had no plans to export Indian iron ore for sale on the global market.

It`s based on meeting the demands of the country,`` he said.

We are not in the business of iron ore. Whatever captive iron ore sources we have, we use it to make steel,`` he said, adding Mittal Steel`s iron ore mines worldwide account for about 40 percent of its needs.

Mittal Steel is also among six companies bidding for Turkey`s state-owned Eregli Demir Celik (EREGL.IS), known as Erdemir. The bidding process was in its final stage, said Mukherjee, who was previously CEO of Mittal`s European operations and also spent several years running the company`s plant in Kazakhstan.

We are definitely in the race for Erdemir,`` he said. ``We definitely expect that the right price gets the opportunity.``

Mittal Steel already owns 8.2 percent of Erdemir, he added, and would become the majority owner should its bid for the 49 percent stake being offered by the government be successful.

The company was also in the early stages of bidding for Krivorozhstal, Ukraine`s biggest steel producer, he said.

CHINA BLUEPRINT

Mittal, which has built its empire by acquiring and transforming underperforming assets worldwide, gained a foothold in China this year when it took a 36.7 percent stake in Hunan Valin Steel Tune & Wire Co. Ltd. (000932.SZ), the listed arm of Valin Iron & Steel Group.

A Chinese government blueprint blocking foreign companies from becoming the majority owner of the country`s steel firms has raised doubts about international participation in the fast-growing market, but Mukherjee is confident more opportunities will arise.

Once they see that it brings in value, I`m sure the blueprint will modify itself,`` he said, referring to Mittal`s partnership with Hunan Valin. ``Today, it`s more a fear of the unknown.``

Mittal has also expanded its raw material base by acquiring iron ore mines in Liberia from the West African country`s government.

Mukherjee said the company was investing in infrastructure, rolling stock and rehabilitating old mines that used to supply ore to Bethlehem Steel in the United States -- now part of the Mittal group.

We should have the first iron ore out next year, definitely,`` he said. By 2007 or 2008, the mines would be producing about 15 million tons of iron ore a year, he said.

The first, second and third part of the investment will go on simultaneously,`` he said. ``By the time we reach the ultimate phase it might be an expenditure of between $500 million and $700 million.``

I really can`t make up what author is trying to say, if English is good or bad for Pakistan? I wish people would write more compact and non-repetitive articles to save us some reading.

My own view is that English provides only foothold, beyond that an individual’s ability matters. But then, you can say a foothold is all you need, in India and Pakistan Peter Principle doesn’t work, it works only where there is some semblance of accountability.

Re#3 Temporal

T-Bhai:

I thought Wren & Martin was some kind of drink (I am a tee-totaler). So, I was all confused. Then I went to Wikipedia and got enlightened as follows:

[Wren & Martin is one of the standard English grammar textbooks in India. Users often cite it as evidence of their thorough education in the English language, as it is well respected among academia, though frequently despised by students working through it. Many Indian schools continue to prescribe it for students learning grammar despite the mixed reputation.]

A clear case of difference of opinion between the academia and its helpless victims. No wonder some of us never ever got to learn proper English.

Anyway,

exhibit A:
True, but language evolves over time – people keep and discard words. What you say here was true at a time – not any more.

exhibit B
The accent on accent is misplaced, of course!

exhibit C:
The problem is deeper than the institutions – the problem is that the problem is so institutionalized – we need more committed people (like you) and have those culprits committed to institutions!

How so self-centered. Blame it on colonial hangover. Same is true for the French North and West Africans. The Russian intelligentsia with an English of a 4th Grade Pakistani standard gets more respect in the west than an empty-headed Oxbridgian. Speaking the language of the masters (colonial masters) is a (as the writer postulates) tool to impress the uninformed masses, but it doesn’t work outside of one’s country. Speaking of which the new debate in Pakistan is whether the correct pronounciation is Ramzan or Ramadhan. Pakistan’s next lingua franca will be Wahabi Arabic.