Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

Words can inform our mind, caress and comfort our feelings, excite and thrill our spirit, or warm and kindle the flame of our hearts. They can also slap our face, punch us in the stomach, rattle our nerves, kill our desire, or destroy our self-confidence. Of course this is metaphorical, but these metaphors capture in words our physical reactions to what is said, and that is the power of language. It can emotionally move and affect us as powerfully as physical actions. Unfortunately, however, we have yet to recognize and legitimize this great power in the way we should, and we are left to deal with language in whatever way we have learned and adopted.

An interesting article – especially the discussion of the ruling elite’s emphasis on English.

Language has the dual role of being the medium of communication and education as well as the vehicle of the culture. In the former role, English is currently unsurpassable because of the large amount of resources that have already been built up. In the latter role, the emphasis is misplaced – to interact with their masses, the politicians need to use their own languages.

Musharraf’s (or other politicians’) fluency in English has nothing to do with being acceptable in the West – that acceptance is based on factors to do with geopolitics and on comparison with (potential) alternatives. In fact, this fluency has indeed got Musharraf into trouble – by shooting off his mouth and saying all the WRONG things – then being unable to claim that his intent was “lost in translation”!

Beej saheb:

take out your magnifying glass and Wren & Martin and get going please!

exhibit A:
A language comes with the baggage of cultural identity and English like always is the language of power spoken in degrees of perfection at every socio-economic level.

exhibit B
Their accessibility to private schools and then going abroad for further education stamps them as a special class who know English with an accent.

exhibit c:
Although the institutions practice English as their medium of operations, it’s a kind of English when taught without knowledge is unable to educate.

if you need more exhibits am standing by

rgd

t

This was a nice write. Westernization is not modernization. We will continue to decay until we find a way around the capatilist dogma that we have been engulfed in. hopefully people will someday see the glory of progression and invention. Instead of finding the easiest ways to be accepted by the vastly different west. Until we build instituitions these problems won`t be solved. May allah give us inner peace.ameen.

Dear Rizwana,

I have seen our Pakistani ruling class speak on american TV and frankly I am not impressed with any of them, including Musharraf. Most of them come across as haughty and condescending. They come across as ``goondas.`` I am surprised how they get time of the day from the really enlightened leaders of modern day world.

It will be beneficial for the ruling class of Pakistan to head for a course in communications or to a self-improvement section of any western book store.

Respectfully submitted,

B

Behram1

You meant ``Disresectfully submitted?``

#2 Beej

quote
``In fact, this fluency has indeed got Musharraf into trouble – by shooting off his mouth and saying all the WRONG things – then being unable to claim that his intent was “lost in translation”!


How true....!!


Infact I know of a person, who has turned the tables around.... He can speak english perfectly well , and can understand even the undercurrents through tones...

Yet he feigns ignorance for english... and takes a translater along with Him....and believe you me... ... It has saved him , on many a occasions from getting into trouble.....

He says.... he has picked this trick from Frenchs, germans and Chineese or were they
Koreans... who do the same....!!

How so self-centered. Blame it on colonial hangover. Same is true for the French North and West Africans. The Russian intelligentsia with an English of a 4th Grade Pakistani standard gets more respect in the west than an empty-headed Oxbridgian. Speaking the language of the masters (colonial masters) is a (as the writer postulates) tool to impress the uninformed masses, but it doesn’t work outside of one’s country. Speaking of which the new debate in Pakistan is whether the correct pronounciation is Ramzan or Ramadhan. Pakistan’s next lingua franca will be Wahabi Arabic.

Re#3 Temporal

T-Bhai:

I thought Wren & Martin was some kind of drink (I am a tee-totaler). So, I was all confused. Then I went to Wikipedia and got enlightened as follows:

[Wren & Martin is one of the standard English grammar textbooks in India. Users often cite it as evidence of their thorough education in the English language, as it is well respected among academia, though frequently despised by students working through it. Many Indian schools continue to prescribe it for students learning grammar despite the mixed reputation.]

A clear case of difference of opinion between the academia and its helpless victims. No wonder some of us never ever got to learn proper English.

Anyway,

exhibit A:
True, but language evolves over time – people keep and discard words. What you say here was true at a time – not any more.

exhibit B
The accent on accent is misplaced, of course!

exhibit C:
The problem is deeper than the institutions – the problem is that the problem is so institutionalized – we need more committed people (like you) and have those culprits committed to institutions!

I really can`t make up what author is trying to say, if English is good or bad for Pakistan? I wish people would write more compact and non-repetitive articles to save us some reading.

My own view is that English provides only foothold, beyond that an individual’s ability matters. But then, you can say a foothold is all you need, in India and Pakistan Peter Principle doesn’t work, it works only where there is some semblance of accountability.

Re: # 8 Kulharee

``The Russian intelligentsia with an English of a 4th Grade Pakistani standard gets more respect in the west than an empty-headed Oxbridgian.``

So true. In the new global village, people respect content, not accent. Check out the article below. Lakhmi Mittal is respected by Chinese, Koreans or east europeans for the value he will add to their economy, not his accent or indian background.

Regards.

October 2, 2005
Mittal Steel Eyes Expansion in India, Turkey
By REUTERS
Filed at 2:14 a.m. ET

SEOUL (Reuters) - Mittal Steel Co. (MT.N) (ISPA.AS), the world`s top steel maker, expects shortly to sign a deal to build a large plant in eastern India, its chief operating officer said on Sunday, after the company said it may raise up to $3 billion to fund expansion.

Malay Mukherjee also said the company was in the final stage of bidding for Turkey`s largest steel producer, would begin mining iron ore in Liberia next year and saw potential to expand its presence in China, the world`s biggest steel consumer, after acquiring a stake in the country`s eighth-largest producer. Foreign companies, including South Korea`s POSCO (005490.KS), want to set up steel plants in India to turn rich iron ore reserves into steel, demand for which is expected to boom with India`s economy, Asia`s third-largest, growing at some 7 percent a year.

The country is growing. Opportunities are opening up and policies are tuned to having additional investment,`` Mukherjee told Reuters in an interview.

He said the company would sign a deal ``sooner rather than later`` to mine iron ore and build the steel plant in the eastern Indian state of Jharkhand. Government sources have estimated the project would cost $11.4 billion, but Mukherjee did not confirm the expected cost.

It will be an integrated plant, starting with at least one blast furnace. The optimum size of a blast furnace today is between 3.5 million and 4 million tons,`` he said, adding the plant would ultimately produce 12 million tons a year of steel.

Rotterdam-based Mittal Steel said on Friday it may periodically sell up to $3 billion in debt, shares and other securities, and would use the proceeds for general corporate purposes, including major capital spending and acquisitions.

FIRST IN INDIA

The Jharkhand project would be Mittal Steel`s first plant in India, the birthplace of its London-based founder and chairman, Lakshmi Mittal.

Jharkhand`s top bureaucrat, Chief Secretary P.P. Sharma, has stated that the government would not allow its ore to be exported. Mukherjee said the company had no plans to export Indian iron ore for sale on the global market.

It`s based on meeting the demands of the country,`` he said.

We are not in the business of iron ore. Whatever captive iron ore sources we have, we use it to make steel,`` he said, adding Mittal Steel`s iron ore mines worldwide account for about 40 percent of its needs.

Mittal Steel is also among six companies bidding for Turkey`s state-owned Eregli Demir Celik (EREGL.IS), known as Erdemir. The bidding process was in its final stage, said Mukherjee, who was previously CEO of Mittal`s European operations and also spent several years running the company`s plant in Kazakhstan.

We are definitely in the race for Erdemir,`` he said. ``We definitely expect that the right price gets the opportunity.``

Mittal Steel already owns 8.2 percent of Erdemir, he added, and would become the majority owner should its bid for the 49 percent stake being offered by the government be successful.

The company was also in the early stages of bidding for Krivorozhstal, Ukraine`s biggest steel producer, he said.

CHINA BLUEPRINT

Mittal, which has built its empire by acquiring and transforming underperforming assets worldwide, gained a foothold in China this year when it took a 36.7 percent stake in Hunan Valin Steel Tune & Wire Co. Ltd. (000932.SZ), the listed arm of Valin Iron & Steel Group.

A Chinese government blueprint blocking foreign companies from becoming the majority owner of the country`s steel firms has raised doubts about international participation in the fast-growing market, but Mukherjee is confident more opportunities will arise.

Once they see that it brings in value, I`m sure the blueprint will modify itself,`` he said, referring to Mittal`s partnership with Hunan Valin. ``Today, it`s more a fear of the unknown.``

Mittal has also expanded its raw material base by acquiring iron ore mines in Liberia from the West African country`s government.

Mukherjee said the company was investing in infrastructure, rolling stock and rehabilitating old mines that used to supply ore to Bethlehem Steel in the United States -- now part of the Mittal group.

We should have the first iron ore out next year, definitely,`` he said. By 2007 or 2008, the mines would be producing about 15 million tons of iron ore a year, he said.

The first, second and third part of the investment will go on simultaneously,`` he said. ``By the time we reach the ultimate phase it might be an expenditure of between $500 million and $700 million.``

I, personally, think all Pakistani leaders should speak in Urdu, at home and abroad. It is, after all, the national language........I have never figured out this fascination amongst everyone in Pakistan, on rating people by their English language skills. Personally speaking, I never speak English, unless talking with someone who cannot understand any other language, or on Chowk. I would, much rather, speak Punjabi (or Urdu). My parents, aunts, uncles etc., all speak Punjabi in their homes.

There is nothing in English that can match Urdu`s poetry. And their is nothing in English that can match Punjabi`s humor and vulgarities. The English language, much like English food, being too bland for my taste.

Along with this, others who should not try to speak English, and Pakistani cricketers. After all, do the English cricketers try to speak Punjabi? Granted Inzamam`s English is quite a bit better than Vaughn`s Punjabi, but still.......

Most of all, the one individual who should not speak in English is George Bush. I have never heard a worst speaker of one`s own language, or anyone else`s language, in my whole life. If such are the communication skills of the, ``Leader of the Western world,`` then I think the rest of us non-native English speakers have nothing to be too worried about......

Re: # 12

Dear Romair,

Language is used not only to communicate what one wants to communicate, but also to be accepted as a part of the group. If all in the group can talk and speak fluently in Urdu, then of course Urdu should be spoken. However, if someone can not speak that language fluently then the next most accepted language should be spoken.

Whatever language one uses should be used with decency and care. Loudness has no place in modern day enlightened group. And then of course choice of words. For example, nowadays if something is ``difficult``, we have started using the word ``challenging.``

You write...[There is nothing in English that can match Urdu`s poetry.] You must not be too serious with such an assertion. Are you? Then, of course, you write... ``my taste``.

Respectfully submitted,

B

romair must not have read much in terms of english literature. he must not have read shakespeare, or byron, or christina rossetti, or wordsworth. . . . these folks must have been too bland for his taste.

oh well, different strokes. . . .

behram #13: ``If all in the group can talk and speak fluently in Urdu, then of course Urdu should be spoken. However, if someone can not speak that language fluently then the next most accepted language should be spoken.``

This is true for normal day to day conversations. It is not true for national events. When one is representing one`s country, in a leadership position, one should always speak in the national language. One speaks as a representative one`s own countrymen. And their understanding is the most important. Everyone else can listen to a translation. Considering the fact that barely 5% of Pakistanis can speak English, Urdu should be used.

It is truly sad to see Urdu get the second rate status it has gotten in Pakistan, at a social level.........

``Loudness has no place in modern day enlightened group``

What exactly is a,``modern day enlightened group?`` How can one apply for a membership in this group? And who decides who is enlightened and who is not..........``

``You must not be too serious with such an assertion. Are you?``

Yes, quite serious. Urdu has always seemed to me, to be far more flexible and powerful in its wordage than English. One can bend and twist and connect and augment Urdu words, far more complexly and powerfully than English words. This is why Urdu poetry rhymes so easily and beautifully. English is extremely limited in that regard.....

English prose can be very powerful. But prose is more dependent on the thought process of the writer. While poetry is greatly dependent on the flexibility of the language, as well. I have yet to see anything in English poetry that matches Ghalib..........

Ana #14: ``romair must not have read much in terms of english literature. he must not have read shakespeare, or byron, or christina rossetti, or wordsworth``

I was a C to C- student in both English and in Urdu. And I have been in two professions -military and Computers - where one`s writing skills end up being very weak. Which is probably why I cannot write well.

But I do read a lot. An awful lot. Everything from my wife`s make-up magazines to mathematics books. It`s like a drug addiction. In fact, while I have met far more intelligent, talented and accomplished, etc. individuals than myself, in my life, I have yet to meet anyone who reads even close to as much as I do. Perhaps it takes me far longer to understand and comprehend things, than others. Due to which I read a lot.

I have read Shakespeare and Wordsworth, from the list you have mentioned. They never appealed to me at the level the Urdu poets did. Or the Punjabi poets, for that matter.

I have yet to read anything better than Punjabi Sufi poetry and Ghalib, in my life, in the three languages I can understand.........It is my latest addiction. Nothing in English poetry ever proved addictive. Although the greatest speaches, movies, and songs (commercial, not classical) I have heard are in English. But again that is more due to the individual than the language.......

Shakespeare would have been even superior to what he is, had he been writing in a more powerful language like Urdu. And Ghalib would not have been half the poet he was, had he been writing in English, which would have limited him. In fact, Ghalib`s best works are actually in Persian - a language I cannot understand. But perhaps Persian gave him even more flexibility............

romair:

i think we will have to disagree on this one, without argument, because you are already convinced, whereas i do not believe that one language or its literature are superior to another. . . which is what you are implying. english is sparse in its constructions, yes, in comparison with most languages of the world, not just urdu. but that doesn`t make it inferior. i have read novels in english that are lyrical and very powerful in their descriptions.

i love urdu and punjabi as well, what i know of it, and i would love to speak it as often as i breathe. as for anyone matching ghalib in english, why should anyone match ghalib? poetry is in the eyes and ears of the reader/listener, and who is to judge that coleridge, or shelley, or donne or the 17th century poets, or the writers of the renaissance such as shakespeare and marlowe did not write powerful poetry? so yes, you can make that assertion if you like. i`m not going to carry this discussion much further because i don`t agree with you.

The only thing wrong with pakistanis (and indians) speaking english is that more often than not, they make mincemeat of it. This includes:
* stupid regional accents: punjabi/up english is possibly the worst, but kannadigga, bong and tamil english come close
* stupid faux accents: worse than regional accents, these call centre yokels are responsible for inflicting this horror on us- drawls and clippedness galore, punctuated by the odd reversion to the regional accent, a la Kholi (sic) in Bride n Prejudice.
* literal translation from language of thought.
* punctuating English with regional expressions (bad enough) AND passing it off as cool, e.g. the Hinglish craze. The only thing this proves is that you are equally bad in both languages. I know a guy who speaks to American clients using words like ``yaar`` (friend), ``ki`` (that), etc. And he finds it strange when they don`t understand him.
* using fancy terms without really understanding them.

English is a language that is ALIVE..............it grows, and there are a few who hark after the puritan bearings of this language.......infAct every one is welcome to adopt it to their requirement...make new Chinglish, hinglish, bengalish ........we do not have to fear mullahs or dictators to come down upon us for doing so........and we have a great meta linguistic and semantic tradition in English literature.................we have a full hermeneutical school in this language.................we have great linguistic philosophies which are still theorized and debated..............and all those Urdu-Hindi idiots who politicized these languages thanks to the TNT paved the way for the regressive `pure` path of these languages than following the paths that was opened by Ghalib and Faiz...........................

I am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter. So for example, although Mantolives writes in perfect english with hardly even a spelling mistake, yet his posts are some of the most non-sensical ones posted here. So obviously, having a solid command of english is not helping him.

Just the other day he opened a thread on unplugged in an english more suited for prep and Ivy league educated elite than a self-styled aspiring lawyer in Lahore. But then he crapped all over when he suggested, using his full command of language and an astonishingly powerful vocabulary, that Yusuf Yohanna converted to Islam under ``duress``. And that his conversion was a ``slap in the face of every Pakistani``.

I tapped on my very limited english language command to eek out three words: ``Please provide evidence``. Unfortunately, despite his vast grasp of English and bottomless reservoir of vocabulary, Manto has yet to come up with an answer to that.

I do agree with Romair that our national leaders should speak in our national language. I don`t know much about Vajpayee or Indian politics, but when i heard him speak to his nation in perfect Hindi, i was pleasantly surprised and felt a little pride for Indians.

The vile mixture of Urdu with English words thrown in, that do not fit or flow in any way with Urdu is horrible, and to hear it from your leader is even more disappointing. To top it off, the English words are taken directly, without any attempt to Urdufy them so that they flow with language. This creates an ugly awkward sounding speech.

The lack of development and progress of Urdu and other South Asian languages, and the deep desire to speak anything other than those languages, to me, shows low self-esteem, and lack of pride and confidence in ones culture. It shows the emotional and mental state of our people and leaders.

ally..

I don`t think this is a way to judge a Prime Minister... pray tell why should a Keralite Indian, if elected Prime Minister, know Hindi. Romair is being cute with his post (his next post will be an unrestrained and abusive attack on the Quaid)... but English language is the only language suited for the leadership of South Asia... unless ofcourse you want to isolate the leadership to Hindi and Urdu speaking folk.


Re: Atif`s ilog

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nonsensical or otherwise, including Atif sahab.

I refrained from commenting on the Youhanna issue for several days, despite provocation from our Indian friends, but it was after Ijaz Gul`s convincing testimony regarding the rather shady events vis a vis Pakistan Cricket Team of early 2000s, I concluded that it was under duress.

Here I must say that even if what Ijaz Gul said was untrue, still I`d call it duress for one cannot describe the atmosphere of the Pakistani cricket team as very cordial to non-Muslims or even to Muslims who may not toe the line/religiousity set by the senior players. There is NOTHING more insulting to human intelligence and endeavor than the captain of the Pakistani cricket team to go and infront of millions declare that ``Almight Allah`` was actually siding with the Pakistan cricket team. I consider all of this duress- that God sides with only Muslims- that Pakistani cricket team plays for Islam etc etc.

Ofcourse I admit ab initio that none of this will satisfy Atif - well none of it is meant to satisfy him- infact this is simply a response to an ill-thought and misplaced allegation.

Yours sincerely,

Y.L.Hamdani

Manto

Is Hindi not India`s national language? Anyways, the issue isn`t India and their linguistic issues, it is us (Pakistan) and our linguistic issues - Vajpayee was cited solely as an example. We don`t have the complexity of India and its many languages, therefore its not so much of an issue for us if Urdu is the national language, as it might be for Indians if Hindi is theirs.

Plus what is right for India isn`t always right for Pakistan. Yes it is important to learn English as it is the worlds new dominant language. However, to give it precedence over your own is wrong.

Many ppl use the excuse `Urdu is not technically advanced enough` my reply to that is that we should make it so then.

In Turkey and France there are institutes that create new words and terminology as it is needed instead of borrowing blatantly from English without any modification, as we do. An example we should all understand, the Turkish word for Mobile Phone is Cep Fon (Pronounced Jeb) as in Pocket Phone, it makes sense. In Pakistan we say Mobile Phone (or a variation of it) and transliterate it directly into the Urdu Script, resulting in ugly formations of hard T`s and D`s for many words.

There are many words like Phone and Internet that are universally used and accepted, fine fair enough, however, we should develop our own language and encourage its usage as opposed to using bad English.

When there is pride in your language and you use it, other people also learn your language, and cater for you too. Example, You get Microsoft everything in Arabic what do you get in Urdu? (there is no technical issue here, as the scripts are similar)

Is there an Urdu/punjabi/Sindhi/Balochi/Pushto Windows produced by Microsoft? There are many add on`s etc, often produced by third party companies.

When you go to Turkey or France you see Turkish or French keyboards. When you go into an internet cafe in Istanbul the version of windows you encounter is Turkish not English. I live in the UK but my mobile phone gives me Turkish as well as languages as obscure as Danish, language options.

All these technical companies cater for all these other languages but not Urdu, because our ppl who do use technology (and they are increasing everyday) would prefer to use English, as they don`t see their own languages fit enough for this `madern cheez`, nor do many of them see the people who speak these languages fit enough.

Even national institutions dont have Urdu version websites, pia has zip on their website and their magazine is mainly in English with two articles in Urdu, Indian Airlines on the other hand do have a Hindi website (http://indian-airlines.nic.in/scripts/index_h.asp) currently under construction/renovation - They have had a fully functional one in the past. How are govt. websites supposed to be of any use if they cannot cater to those ppl who they are meant to serve? I have not seen one Pakistani govt. website in Urdu, here is the link to the main page of Govt. of Pakistan website http://www.pakistan.gov.pk/ - its ALL in English not even a few pages in Urdu. Its almost as if the site was made as a showcase for goras, and not to supply Pakistani ppl with relevant information.

Though these attitudes are changing slowly as many `pindoo` ppl get access to technology, and it is when these ppl get access that respect for our languages will increase, as the govt. starts to find the internet a good way of distributing River and Crop information to farmers in Punjab, Sindh etc. It cannot expect to do so in English. It will have to do so in the common language of the common man.

Hindi was mandated to be India`s national language but fortunately for them no one dared impose it.

Turkey and France are largely monolithic countries with Turkey having some Arab and Kurdish speaking population... let me remind you - Pakistan has several languages not just Urdu... Let me give you a better example... it is a little known Jinnah spoke Gujrati and Cutchie- perhaps even better than he spoke English- (Roses in December by M C Chagla) ... should he have started speaking Gujrati while addressing crowds in Lahore or Delhi? This is why it is unfortunate that the Urdu-speaking lobby prevailed on Jinnah to declare Urdu as the national language. I have no problem with Urdu- but it is not the language of the majority and in our federation no one ethnic identity should have veto on the issue of language ... for that is patently against the principle on which we got the country.

I think Urdu is an awesome language... and despite being a Punjabi, but national ID card lists Urdu as my mother tongue (ironic because Punjabi is listed as my parents` mother tongue) - however it won`t work. I certainly speak and write Urdu better than most people here... but I know that it won`t work-- It just won`t... and any attempt to do so will result in terrific disaster.... not just economically and commercially but also nationally...

So let English an alien language be the language of Pakistani leaders... for then Baloch or Sindhi or or Pathan or even a Punjabi would have no objections.

-YLH

Re: # 23

Manto Sahib. How about making Arbi our national language? Instead of teaching kids the Quran, they should be taught Arabic language, so they can learn Quran on their own (if they want to). There are many advantages to making Arbi our national language. Firstly, it will raise the per capita IQ of the Arabic speaking world by at least 10 fold, and secondly, we will have huge amount of oil coming out of our national tunnel.

Manto Sahib, I also carry a National ID card, it lists my religion, but not my language. Did you pay extra money to get your language listed? I am talking about the card itself, and not the Form Bay or Form Noon Ghunaa.

Regards.

What do you expect? Urdu? English ruled the world. Naturally, their language became the lingua franca of the globe. Its as simple as that.

Excuse me.... The National Identity Card DOES NOT contain religion column... the passport does....

Mother tongue and Religion are listed in the Computer Data that is available when your number is entered onto the computer screen. If you have a computerised NIC which is the only acceptable NIC ... then you would have had to list your national language on the form.

ally#: leaders should always speak in the national language. Whatever that language may be. If it is Swahili, then they should speak Swahili. It is quite ridiculous to make speeches in the national language of another country. How many other countries do that? It is nothing more than a sign of an inferiority complex. A huge one, at that.......

If people want national leaders to speak in English, then they should declare English the national language. And then speak in it, all they want.

Everyone in Pakistan understands Urdu. They learn in voluntarily. Hardly anyone considers it being imposed on them. It is, infact, a uniting factor in Pakistan, now. Hardly anyone understands English. One would have to step outside the elitist parts of Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad to realize that. If Musharraf is making a speech at the UN, and 90% of his own countrymen cannot understand it, then what is the point.

Such elitism in Pakistan is disgusting, at least, in my opinion. The voice of 90% or more of the population is never heard. Not because they are not intelligent. But because they cannot speak English. One can understand that being bi-lingual in any country, should give one an advantage in the job field. But why should it give anyone an advantage socially?

Why is their a fake hierarchy based on knowledge of a foreign language? How many other countries have such a hierarchy? I meet Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, French, etc. daily, who cannot speak a word of English. Their countries seem to be doing fine.

The attempt to keep English as a social pedestal is nothing more than an attempt to keep the society divided, between haves and have-nots. For example, Chowk`s whole tone and content would be different, if everyone had access to it, i.e. Urdu font was available and poor people in Pakistan had access to the Internet. Then one would see the views of the real Pakistan. But now it is simply a place for rich Westernised English speaking folks.........

This is not to say that people should discard English. It should be learned, because it is the language of the world and of technology. One should try to master it. But it is not the language of Pakistan. It is not the naitonal language. It is not what people in Pakistan understand.

So, either declare English to be the national language, or on all naitonal issues, speeches etc., speak in Urdu..............

Manto

Leaders have to speak to their ppl, and right now the only language in our country that is understood widely (maybe not spoken or written) is Urdu and NOT English. A Sindhi villager will understand Musharaf more if Mush spoke in Urdu than English. This is due to the fact the Urdu is more closely related to Sindhi than is English, and there are many overlaps, thus helping the Sindhi only speaker to understand more. Apart from this, the Sindhi villager has probably seen many Hindi/Urdu movies and probably sings their songs while working in the fields. Urdu in Pakistan, is more widely understood than English, and that is a fact.

Pakistan may have many languages, why should that stop anything or anyone taking pride and valuing our national language. But just as i value Urdu, i value my mother tongue Punjabi too, and respect the mother tongues of other Pakistanis. Urdu is the language that brings all Pakistanis together, it saves us time because we dont have to learn the other major Pakistani languages to communicate with those who do not speak our language.

Example, A dhoti clad Punjabi cloth merchant from Faisalabad, discussing the transportation of his cloth to Karachi with a turbaned Baluchi truck driver from Zhob, what language do you think they will converse in???

English is no where near that.

atif2 #19: `` am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter.``

You are quite correct. The main part of any poetry or prose is the imagination of the individual writing it. But, certain languages do give one a lot of flexibility in the way they can be structured. English, in that regard, is very limited. And hence makes poetry quite difficult. There are very few extensions and changes one can bring into English words, without adding extra words.

While Urdu allows all kinds of extensions, chains, changes, alterations of words, thereby, making poetry quite a bit easier. The same verse can be cut down to half its size by chaining. One does not need to use unnecessary prepositions, in Urdu.

In prose, prepositions, chains, prefixes and suffixes are not as important, hence English comes out as an equally, ``easy`` language........

National vs State language

Because... Ally Pakistan is a federation under a federal constitution and a Sindhi or a Balochi is not very happy to accept Urdu as the national language. I think we have had too much heartbreak to even attempt to restart that issue... Neither English nor Urdu can be the sole national language of Pakistan ... this is not what I say... this is what the people of Sindh and Balochistan say... however it is constitutionally mandated as such so Romair`s only case is through Article 251 of the constitution which has never completely been implemented... it must be remembered that Romair is against the Constitution of Pakistan...

I love Urdu more than the next guy but I love Pakistan more... but to make it the single national language has proved disastrous in the past... (infact I stand corrected- Jinnah`s position was that Urdu was to be the state language not the national language- even that has not happened or can`t happen).... it is an unnecessary debate ... unnecessary because it is the single most divisive issue (more than religion/secularism-which romair claims but which one does not really see) for Pakistan today.

Look at India... it has DONE well without ever officially imposing Hindi... despite the constitutional provision.

Romair #27

my point exactly, thats what i have been trying to explain to Manto in post #28 and #22

A

ally:

okay, so precedence should not be given to english over urdu in our own country. obviously one has to think of what audience a person is trying to reach. a political leader, or someone cannot be addressing a group of people who don`t understand english. our leaders should address ``the people`` in a language that all can understand, if all are to participate. if urdu is what brings different language groups together, then so be it. that makes sense in a perfect world where everyone understands urdu as well.

i don`t like the word precedence personally because giving one language precedence over another has been a reason why some of us in pakistan did/do not study the languages of our elders in the educational system. if urdu can be taught in schools then why not punjabi, or others like sindhi, which the sindhis fought for. the languages of our elders is not urdu per se.

english still remains a universal language in terms of business, in terms of diplomacy, and it follows that either pakistani leaders have a good command of the english language in order to communicate, or if not, then their own, whatever that is. but that they not present themselves as ``maajhay da Dangar.`` musharraf has come close to that himself on more than one occasion.

as a multilingual speaker, and on my way to becoming a linguist, i cringe when we are as nationalistic about our languages as we are about our country. language is a constantly changing thing, and languages adopt to technological advances and all that. but i also feel that when we speak of our love for our own language, that we not make such sweeping assertions (and few are immune to that here) as to which language is superior. there really is no such thing as one language being superior to another.

i think it is inaccurate to say that everyone in pakistan understands urdu. it is yet another sweeping generalization.

Ally ...

Romair`s post 27 is most naive post that I have come across on Chowk and he has managed to match up all his previous comments...

Let me frame the issues:

1) Are we debating State/Official Language or National Language? If state language is what we are discussing then it is an issue that should be judged on merit... and by careful planning... and not on emotionalism. Remember even Jinnah spoke of state language not national language. In my opinion, and you can disagree, Urdu has proved quite inadequate in the courts of law and administration.

2) If we are discussing the National language: then I would personally want Urdu... but the fact is that Sindhis and the Baloch (believe it or not the plural of Baloch is Baloch) are NOT ready to accept Urdu as the national language. So what are you going to do?

3) If there is no consensus on National language and if Urdu has failed despite article 251 of the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Pakistani leader`s choice of language becomes inconsequential... a complete non-issue.

4) That Romair is a hypocrite who writes 5000 words on how religion/secularism issue divides Pakistan but is so narrowminded about accepting the one issue that has in the past actually divided the country.

Re: # 15

Dear Romair,

Thank you for a response.

You assert that [When one is representing one`s country, in a leadership position, one should always speak in the national language. One speaks as a representative one`s own countrymen. And their understanding is the most important. Everyone else can listen to a translation.] I would tend to agree with you if the media conversation is happening in one`s own country with the local media. However, if the purpose is to educate the masses of the west, then Romair, I am sorry the language is English. And they must learn how to speak in a soft tone, and not be haughty.

You ask [What exactly is a,``modern day enlightened group?``] Go to any social group and you will realize how to be genteel. No more loudness and vulgarity accepted. Besides, as usual, please do not take my response out of context to your previous post (#12) where you claimed that vulgarity is the added flavor of any language.

Your querry...[How can one apply for a membership in this group? And who decides who is enlightened and who is not..........`` ] You have to grow up a little bit to figure that one out.

Your love for Urdu is admirable, and I respect that. Actually, being an Iranian blood, I always consider Persian to have history and flavor. But, unfortunately for some, the world has moved on to English. And we have to live with that.

You accept that [English prose can be very powerful. But prose is more dependent on the thought process of the writer.] Ok. Let me ask you this then, when was the last time you heard politicians speak in poetry on national issues?

Romair, create love in your life and you will see miracles happening.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

[ This is why it is unfortunate that the Urdu-speaking lobby prevailed on Jinnah to declare Urdu as the national language.]

...that is one bare faced lie if there was one...since when jinnah could be prevailed upon on something he was naturally against?... and that too by those UP walas whom jinnah tolerated but never liked...for that matter jinnah never liked anyone but himself but that`s another story...yassir you are becoming good at lying... i see a good future for you as a liar errr lawyer...

Ally #28: ``Example, A dhoti clad Punjabi cloth merchant from Faisalabad, discussing the transportation of his cloth to Karachi with a turbaned Baluchi truck driver from Zhob, what language do you think they will converse in???``

This is a very good example.........

Urdu, is now, a big uniting factor in Pakistan. And not a dividing one. It has been accepted, voluntarily, by the common Pakistani, as the language of communication and commerce. The reason it has been accepted is because it came in from the outside. Statistically speaking, Punjabi should have been the national langauge, since nearly 2 out of 3 Pakistanis, speaks Punjabi or its dialect. But no smaller province would have accepted Punjabi.

Nearly everyone in Pakistan, wants their kid to learn Urdu. Because it makes life much easier for them. Imagine a Pakistan, where one could not communicate with people across the provincial boundaries. It would have created far more problems. Having one common voluntarily accepted national language is a great asset. Just look at the problems Canada is having with French and English........

If Pakistan wants English to be that one common factor, then that is fine also. It should have been declared the national language, and everyone should have pursued it. However, its a bit too late to do that now. English is so different in grammar and text and script and wordage from local Pakistani languages that it would be very difficult for illiterate individuals to speak and understand it..........

I can understand someone making an argument in favor of local languages over Urdu. Though I would disagree with it. However, why anyone would want to use a foreign language in place of one`s national language, without declaring that foreign language to be the national language, is beyond me.........

One only needs to talk with Pakistanis who cannot speak English (the non-Westernised 90% Pakistanis) and see how frustrated they are with having a social divide based on the English language, forced upon them. I doubt too many of them would prefer English over Urdu, as far as a national language.

Then again, perhaps, it makes sense for Pakistani leaders to speak in languages that hardly any of their countrymen can comprehend. Based on that, I suggest they switch to French, instead of English. It is, after all, a language of the UN also. And even fewer Pakistanis can understand it than English. And that would really put everyone in Pakistan on equal footing. It would get rid of the English/Urdu divide also, along with the Punjabi/Sindhi/Pushto divide etc.........

Re: # 26
Manto Ji.. I know that the NIC (for those living in Pakistan) doesn’t list one’s religion, but it used to be of different color for minorities (I happened to carry one, until I ran into a monkey with his tail lifted upward – yeah, you guessed it right, I shoved my card up where it rightfully belonged). Color speaks louder than the words.

India has over 50 national languages. Pakistan can easily do that. The best way to resolve the linguistic issues of Pakistan are to break the problem into smaller components – i.e., let each Province decide for itself what it wants (in doing so, Urud speakers should not be represented, as it is not the language of any of the provinces).

Just to give people an example... in the court of law ... pleadings/conveyancing can be filed in both Urdu and English...

Here is an Urdu version :


Munkay Umair Raja vald

---

Sakna Toronto Canada ka hoon. Kuch arsa say Maqar ki tabiat nasaz rehti hai. Maqar ka dimaghi tawazan theek nahin rehta - allawa azeen pechas bhee lagay huin hain, jis khatir bawla bhee ho giya hoon, lihaza ba hosh or hawas, bila khatir kay maqar eik dimaghi mareez hai, mein ally ko mukhtar-e-aam muqarar karta hoon- takay maqar kay tamam karobar ki dekbhal karay aur jo sub kuch bun paye wo kare, wakil kay akhrajat deway aur jo huchukay karaway.

Lihaza yeh mukhtar nama tehreer kardiya takay sanad rahay.

Gawah shud Al Abd Gawah shud


Morkah...

---

Oh great Urdu lovers please translate the above mentioned.

Kulharee...

Please stop lying... I have seen all ID cards and they were always one color. They used to be orangish green and now they are light green... for all Pakistanis...

So my guess is that you are just another loser in a long line of losers.

Manto

regardless of what you say the reality is that Urdu is more understood and spoken than English. Ordinary ppl as mentioned in the scenario below will communicate the way they know how, and in Pakistan that is Urdu, unless one of them speaks the others language.

Sindhis and Baluchis aren`t unhappy to learn Urdu, what they are unhappy about is status that has been given to their own languages within the Pakistani federation, an unhappiness that is now becoming more apparent in Punjab.

It is not that we dislike Urdu and are vehement opponents of it, what we would like is that our mother tongues be given the respect they deserve by the centre i.e. Islamabad.

English is used by the elite ppl to show how `elite` they are, thats all, just the way before it was Farsi, and now its English.

Romair- the expat field marshall- has spoken on how it is in Pakistan sitting thousands of miles away in Canada.

Get a life... or translate my post 39

Re: # 37

Dear Romair,

Once again, respectfully, I disagree with your thought. And please forgive me for that.

You suggest that [see how frustrated they are with having a social divide based on the English language, forced upon them. I doubt too many of them would prefer English over Urdu, as far as a national language.] is absolutely false. Actually, on the contrary, by not allowing English to grow in Pakistan, we are disallowing 90% of Pakistan to the economic benefit English language brings.

When comparing Chinese workers with Indian workers, time and time again, the Indians get an edge because of the English language. Romair, whether you like it or not, English has become the language of Business, and I thought that you knew that.


Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: # 40

Manto, what a typical Paki attitude, when ran out of dumb excuse, start calling people names. If you think that they ask it on the form for one’s religion, what would stop them from identifying it on the cards? Are you just pretending to be thick? The color of the old Minorities cards was not orangish green, but yellow yellow… and it identified one’s religions as either Muslim or non-Muslim… If you like I can give you monkey`s address and you can check for yourself, you may find your ancestors hiding in there.

Ana

I am not saying one language is better than the other, and if i ever were to get emotional about a language then that could only be Punjabi. What i`m trying to explain to Manto is that at this moment in time. More ppl in Pakistan understand Urdu than English, yes not everyone as you pointed out, but a lot.

Out of the two for our leaders to choose English whilst talking to the average Pakistani just doesn`t make sense. Practically it would be Urdu as that is one that is most widely understood in the country.

The Reality

1) That issue of state language is separate from national language. Urdu has proved inadequate as a state language. If not, then please ask Romair to translate my conveyancing (only 20% of the real thing in court).

2) That Sindhis and the Baloch are voluntarily part of the federation and as per the principle of Pakistan, they can choose to secede.

3) That Sindhis and the Baloch, even if they understand Urdu (and they don`t), are NOT ready to accept Urdu as the national language. There is a consensus on this. Even PPP politicians, the most Pakistani of them all, don`t want Urdu. PML Functional also stands opposed to Urdu. We are not even talking about Sindhi nationalists here.

4) The reality is that Romair has proved himself to be a hypocrite as usual.

Kulharee... the color of the ID Card was always the same. When it was Yellow it was Yellow for all... when it was organish green it was Orangish green for all ... and now its light green for all...

And you are a liar.. there is no other way of saying it.

learn english and get a job. dont learn english and be jobless.

this is going to become increasingly true in the future.

whenever the pakistan government has tried to impose urdu, there has been trouble in pakistan. starting with the language riots in e. pakistan in early 1950`s that has had a lasting effect (monuments to those killed in the language riots are to be found all over bangladesh). no one can impose a language or a culture - it is like trying to turn back the ocean tides.

PS: Kulhari

Another reason I know you are a liar is because the previous ID card (Yellow coloured) that ALL PAKISTANIS had did have a religious column on it. The new ID card doesn`t.

By claiming that the previous ID card was of a different colour and did not have religion column on it you have proved that you have no clue what you are talking about.

One should not be a disgusting liar... there is no one here who has spoken out more conclusively against religious discrimination in Pakistan but you are merely fibbing and I doubt that you are even a minority...

further to my previous post: on the other hand, there have never been any language riots in pakistan against teaching english - since the students know that this is how they will get jobs both inside pakistan and abroad.

kaurasach #25: ``What do you expect? Urdu? English ruled the world. Naturally, their language became the lingua franca of the globe. Its as simple as that.``

This is true. But the picture is slowly changing.

The most spoken language in the world today is Mandarin. Nearly three times as many people speak Mandarin as their first langauge, as English. In fact, English is third, behind Mandarin and Spanish. Hindi/Urdu is fourth. Bengali is fifth. Though on some lists, Hindi/Urdu is second, ahead of English!

Mandarin is also the highest spoken as a second langauge, also. English is the second most spoken second language. Not the first.

If I had a choice of learning one language today, I would learn Mandarin. Anyone who can speak English, Mandarin and Hindi/Urdu is going to be hot property in the business field, in the coming years. In fact, a person with such skills, in my field of IT is already hot property.

As the world advances, and the Mandarin and Hindi/Urdu areas get out of the third world, the importance of these langauges is bound to rise. Once China reaches the same level of influence in the world, as the USA, Mandarin will turn into a must-know language, like English.

The importance of languages seems to have a direct relationship with the amount of confidence people have in their own societies. For example, Ireland is now one of the best places to live in Europe. It is the second wealthiest country in the world, now. And ranks ahead of USA, Japan and UK on the HDI. Based on that, there seems to be a bit of rise of the old Irish pride. And now Irish Gaelic has been added as the official language of the EU!!

I think the influence of English, today, actually has more to do with the influence of the USA in the world. As that balances out, with the rise of Asian economies, with far larger populations, things will change. Interestingly, English is the lingua franca of the EU. Even though it should be German. Since Germany and Austria constitute 25% of the EU GDP.

The USA, historically, passed English as its official language by one vote (a myth?). Had it passed German as its official language, everyone would be speaking German, todaya, regardless of how many lands the Brits ruled.........

Tahmed...

The inability of the great Urdudan and Shair, Mirza Asadullah Romair, to translate my post 39... is clear indication of how useful Urdu is as an official language.

The idiomatic English translation is much simpler and clearer..

ally:

i didn`t say that you`re saying one language is better than the other. the person who you are agreeing with has all but said that in some of his posts (and now he might say we`re putting words in his mouth)

look, instead of arguing about one language of power, we should be talking about the power of language, and how that power is kept from a vast majority of the population, whether it be english or urdu. it`s easy for those of us to sit at our computers and type out prescriptions. and the ironic part is we`re doing it in english. . . .

chalo :) miles to go and all that. . .

ylh #53 at the lahore academy for administrative services they tried to teach us ``dafteri urdu``!! with an ancient lakhnavi guy teaching us elaborate flowery methods of address. the time would have been better spent teaching the government officials how to brush their teeth.

Pakistan’s military as well as civilian governments gain the Super Power’s sympathies through their knowledge of English.


Nope...they do it by their ability to follow the super power`s instructions...instructions that are furnished in English..

Romair: you write ``If I had a choice of learning one language today, I would learn Mandarin.``

Hell!! I could have sworn that you were already an expert in mandarin, given that write all your posts in what seems like mandarin.

arjun: learn english from arjun!! (oooo...paki..paki..paki.....oooo!!)

Tahmed...

I suppose that was as per the Constitution of 1973 article 251:

``(1) The National language of Pakistan is Urdu, and arrangements shall be made for its being used for official and other purposes within fifteen years from the commencing day.

(2) Subject to clause (1), the English language may be used for official purposes until arrangements are made for its replacement by Urdu.

(3) Without prejudice to the status of the National language, a Provincial Assembly may by law prescribe measures for the leaching, promotion and use of a Provincial language in addition to the National language. ``


Its been 32 years... out of which atleast 20 years were exceptional for their zeal in promoting Urdu... and it worked too to the extent that I don`t know how to speak Punjabi ... and I am proud of it.

But the failure of Urdu is now painfully obvious... just like the failure of prohibition...the failure of Islam to stop all sins in Pakistan etc etc...

if urdu is not the national language of pak, how come the circulation of jang is 10x that of the circulation of all the english language newspapers combined? numbers are even more skewered when you compare urdu newspapers with a regional language newspapers.

as for english language, thais cant speak cant speak english to save their lives. and yet thai exports exceed that of india and pak combined. quite an achievement for a qaum that was was never blessed by british rule.

Waiting for the great Urdudan Romair to please post a translation to 39.

Re: # 50

Manto Sahi, in 92, the government withdrew the idea of listing one’s religion on the card, however, it continues to do so in the forms (as you stated) as well as on the passport (religion was listed on cards issued prior to 92). So what exactly are you arguing about? Get your head out of your ass, as I really don’t give a jack about what you think I am or I am not. You can call me a lair all you want, and call me Pakistani or not-Pakistani, as it doesn’t make one bit difference to me. Just don’t call me a Molvi. You just made a complete U-Turn, first no-religion, and now you state that religion was identified on old cards. Hello? First decide for yourself what is a Pakistani card worth, then come are argue with me. Shabbash.

Regards.

behram #43: ``Actually, on the contrary, by not allowing English to grow in Pakistan, we are disallowing 90% of Pakistan to the economic benefit English language brings.``

Who is saying that we should not allow English to grow in Pakistan?

But there is a difference between letting a language grow, and forcing it on people, who cannot even understand it. It the aim is to make English the common language of Pakistan, then declare it as the national language, and provide everyone from the poor groups, an opportunity to learn it..........

However, it is quite ridiculous to create social divides on the basis of a language that is foreign to the country. If you don`t think it is frustrating for the 90% or more of the Pakistani population, who cannot speak English, in the job field and in society in general, then I am afraid you and I have a different understanding of the Pakistani society.

``Badtameez Urdu medium`` is a phrase of inferiority in Pakistan. How far is a country going to go, if such phrases are accepted lingo, in its society? The ability to speak good English is an elitist social divide in Pakistan. It is, in fact, the highest elitist divide in the country, other than wealth. Perhaps even higher.......

If the aim is to grow English in Pakistan, then it should be grown. And at an aggressive pace, thereby bringing everyone on even terms. Declare it the national language and provide everyone facilities to learn it. However, if it cannot be grown, or is not grown, then it is counterproductive for an elite to cling to it, thereby keeping the rest of the country on a lower tier........

A person living in his own country, being left behind socially, just because he speaks his own national language, and is not proficient in the language of another country, is a sad state of affairs...........As is the leadership of a country, making important speeches in the world, in languages that their own countrymen cannot understand......

Suppose Musharraf went to the UN and started speaking in Chinese - the most spoken langauge in the world. Wouldn`t you feel odd that you couldn`t understand what he was saying.........That is how most of Pakistan feels, when he speaks in English..........

Kulharee...

Your dishonesty is visible in the way you argue...

I was talking about the current Pakistani card... when I spoke about religion column not being there. It was in response to your comment about language not being there. It was a simple statement of fact. Then you lied and claimed that there was color differentiation ... you were again proved wrong. I never claimed that old cards didn`t have a religion column ... they did... I am not arguing for Pakistan`s superiority or that discrimination does not exist in Pakistan.. that is a blatant lie... I didn`t have an agenda when I made that statement except calling a spade a spade..

Your problem is that you started an irrelevant discussion... had you said that there was discrimination- horrible discrimination against non-Muslims- I would have gladly agreed with you... infact that is what I was saying in post 21... and has been a constant position.

But you decided to blatantly lie which you have now accepted.

#12 by Romair on October 2, 2005 5:24pm PT


Personally speaking, I never speak English, unless talking with someone who cannot understand any other language, or on Chowk


Telling people to wear t-shirts with paki flags post 9/11 sound as stupid in urdu as it does in English....

``That is how most of Pakistan feels, when he speaks in English..........``

How in the name of god did you become an expert of what most of Pakistan thinks?


Why don`t you just translate 39... or spare us your treatise of sh-t?

Behram:

digression:

* languages ‘evolve’…Urdu is a prime example…out of perisian, turkish, prakrits …khaRi boli…etc.

two more personal digressions:

* a traveler who travels all over india (with 16 major language groups)…for essentials ( room, lodgings, directions, transportation, food) would be forced to communicate with the locals in english … or in the north only …also… hindustani or hindi

* same traveler now travelling all over pakistan (with five major language groups) …for essentials would be forced to communicate with the locals in urdu…(ignoring pockets of english in major urban centres)

more respectfully submitted

t

Re: # 42
manto...
if you like i can translate your 18th century court paper written in furdu...farsi-urdu prevalent in those days ...vaise i bet you can`t translate a passage i will put here which is 17th century english...do you agree to the terms...and the loser will stay away from chowk forever...;)

ps: please confirm the terms so that we can get riddance of the bad rubbish for ever...

challenge to manto...
manto...
if you like i can translate your 18th century court paper written in furdu...farsi-urdu prevalent in those days ...vaise i bet you can`t translate a passage i will put here which is 17th century english...do you agree to the terms...and the loser will stay away from chowk forever...;)

ps: please confirm the terms so that we can get riddance of the bad rubbish for ever...

Re: # 63

Manto Ji, I will send you a pack of kinderchocolade for winning this argument with me (over the color of our National ID Card). I must applaud your persistence and you brilliance and your fortitude and your yearning in always wanting to be right.

Regards,

Kulharee

The problem Khammy is that this is NOT 18th century Urdu (with no tinge of Farsi)

This is Modern Urdu Conveyancing... used in the courts of law in Pakistan even as we speak. It is actually an easier version since I could not think of the right words.

Kulharee

If you lie ... then you get your due... in the future refrain from making inaccurate statements.

The use of wealth, land, family, language etc. to create unassailable social divides, by an elite, in a society, is a practice as old as mankind. Any beneficiary of a such a divide will try tooth and nail to maintain that divide. Because it gives such a group an automatic advantage over the masses of the population........

If I go to Pakistan, today, I will, definitely, have an advantage over individuals who are not as proficient in English, as I am. While I will not lose much if I am not as proficient as any competitor, in Urdu. This advantage will be far higher than what should be gained by knowing a certain second language. It is, in fact, a difference in social class that I gain by knowing English.........

The societies that have been able to get rid of such divides, have been the most successful in the world. They have lowered the gap between the elite and the non-elite..........

Pakistan has to do one of two things: If English is the way to go, then it needs to provide facilities to everyone to be able to learn and communicate in this language. And declare it the national language. That would put everyone on equal footing..........

If it cannot provide such facilities, then it needs to rely on the language that is the most spoken and understood, and most non-controversial in Pakistan (Urdu by a long-shot). It should then ensure that the social structure is based on this language, i.e. knowing English, does not create a social divide. The President should speak in the national language etc.

None of this means getting rid of local languages. It just means everyone settling on a voluntarily accepted means of communicating with each other, accessible to the most people (English, Urdu, Farsi, whatever)........

In such a situation, English (and any other language, including Java and C++ etc.) should be pushed as languages, which allows one to move around in the world, and in the business field, and should be learnt and encouraged for those reasons......

But what needs to go away is this elitist divide, whereby a tiny majority, and its children, has access to one thing, i.e. English, and supports a social structure, where the overwhelming majority, is out of the loop, with hardly any chance of getting in the loop.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the language, itself. It could be English, Urdu, Japanese, anything. Whatever is selected should result in an even playing field........At the moment, English is heavily tilted towards the elite, with no footing amongst the common man..........

Re: # 72

Romair, now Manto is going to come back with his cockamamie theory of how ridiculous you sound. Can you put it in some easier words for him? What the hell is ..”masses of the population…”? you have too much redundancy in your written prose. The good news is that you use your head unilke Manto.

manto refuses to accept my challenge...what a shame...we are stuck with him...:(unless romair takes his challenge...

romair: pssssss...i will provide the translation, fiker nawt...;)

Khammy...

As I pointed out... the document in question is Modern Urdu used in the court today... not 18th century... which proves that Urdu is unsuited for modern state usage.


Kulharee...

So first you lie, then you are caught...and now you are trying to make alliances by kissing up to the one person who stands against all efforts byminorities to seek equal rights in Pakistan... I think all of this a lot about your credibility or lack thereof.


Romair

Instead of putting up inane nonsense translate 39 and prove that you are right about Urdu.

Faisaluno #60: ``if urdu is not the national language of pak, how come the circulation of jang is 10x that of the circulation of all the english language newspapers combined? numbers are even more skewered when you compare urdu newspapers with a regional language newspapers.``

You have hit the nail right on the head. Not only in newspaper circulation, but also in other areas. The most popular TV programs, in Pakistan, are, all, easily in Urdu. There is no English or local language program that even comes close. The most popular radio programs are in Urdu. Hindi movies on video, from India, outsell English movies from USA by gigantic multi-fold margins. How many Pakistanis know who Brad Pitt is? Or Gweyneth Paltrow? Everyone knows who Shahrukh Khan is. And Ashwariya Rai. Iqbal`s poetry is far better known than Wordsworth. Urdu/Hindi music is far more accessed than English......

Of course to understand this, one has to step outside the ivory tower confines of Defence, Clifton and Islamabad (and Chowk)........

In anything that is catered, directly, to the masses, without any govt. or elitist interference, Urdu beats English by such a huge margin that it is not even funny. If the Internet was accessible everywhere in Pakistan, and Chowk was accessible in Urdu, the hits here would go through the roof............we would then truly think what Pakistanis think...........

The only area where anything competes, with Urdu, is in movies, where Punjabi movies, probably, do better than Urdu movies.......

I have not spent much time in rural Sind and Baluchistan. But I have travelled through, almost every corner of Punjab and NWFP, (and much of Kashmir). I spent most of my professional life in Pakistan, living in the boondocks of these two provinces. Never once in my life, did I face a situation, where I ran into someone who could not understand Urdu. This includes going into the tribal areas. And hardly anyone I ran into, outside our small colonies, spoke English........

And never once did I run into anyone who could speak Urdu, but did not want to (like people I have run into into in Germany and France, who will not speak English, even if they understand it). Granted the response one got, in the rural areas, if one spoke Punjabi and/or Pushto was better. But Urdu was accepted, as the common language and not resented..........

The situation of India, in terms of languages, is different that that of Pakistan. India is far more complex. And Pakistan brought in an outside language, Urdu, which not too many resented, in West Pakistan. India did not have access to any such language (other than English). Having an accepted national language, that all provinces can communicate in, is a great asset for Pakistan. Also, pre-71 the situation was different. With East Pakistan around, using Urdu may not have been the correct option, if the Bengalis resented it. But I believe we are in 2005, now.

In any case, whatever language is used, has to be made accessible to everyone. That should be the first criteria. And should not divide the society into elites and non-elites.

Kulharee #73: ``What the hell is ..”masses of the population…”? you have too much redundancy in your written prose.``

You are probably correct. I need to cut down on the redundancy. I write my replies in one go, and just send them in, based on whatever comes into my mind.......

Still no translation for 39 romair.

Yasser is correct about Urdu not being acceptable by most Sindhis and Baluchis (and probably not that many Pathans either) as a ``national`` language. In any case, the Urdu script does need to be rationalized along the lines Ataturk used to rationalize Turkish: romanize it and clean it up! Whats all this nonsense about tays and toays, for example. Or kafs and qafs? Who but old muhajirs and frigging Arabs know the difference anyway?