Language of Power: How it is getting more exclusive

romair:

i think we will have to disagree on this one, without argument, because you are already convinced, whereas i do not believe that one language or its literature are superior to another. . . which is what you are implying. english is sparse in its constructions, yes, in comparison with most languages of the world, not just urdu. but that doesn`t make it inferior. i have read novels in english that are lyrical and very powerful in their descriptions.

i love urdu and punjabi as well, what i know of it, and i would love to speak it as often as i breathe. as for anyone matching ghalib in english, why should anyone match ghalib? poetry is in the eyes and ears of the reader/listener, and who is to judge that coleridge, or shelley, or donne or the 17th century poets, or the writers of the renaissance such as shakespeare and marlowe did not write powerful poetry? so yes, you can make that assertion if you like. i`m not going to carry this discussion much further because i don`t agree with you.

The only thing wrong with pakistanis (and indians) speaking english is that more often than not, they make mincemeat of it. This includes:
* stupid regional accents: punjabi/up english is possibly the worst, but kannadigga, bong and tamil english come close
* stupid faux accents: worse than regional accents, these call centre yokels are responsible for inflicting this horror on us- drawls and clippedness galore, punctuated by the odd reversion to the regional accent, a la Kholi (sic) in Bride n Prejudice.
* literal translation from language of thought.
* punctuating English with regional expressions (bad enough) AND passing it off as cool, e.g. the Hinglish craze. The only thing this proves is that you are equally bad in both languages. I know a guy who speaks to American clients using words like ``yaar`` (friend), ``ki`` (that), etc. And he finds it strange when they don`t understand him.
* using fancy terms without really understanding them.

English is a language that is ALIVE..............it grows, and there are a few who hark after the puritan bearings of this language.......infAct every one is welcome to adopt it to their requirement...make new Chinglish, hinglish, bengalish ........we do not have to fear mullahs or dictators to come down upon us for doing so........and we have a great meta linguistic and semantic tradition in English literature.................we have a full hermeneutical school in this language.................we have great linguistic philosophies which are still theorized and debated..............and all those Urdu-Hindi idiots who politicized these languages thanks to the TNT paved the way for the regressive `pure` path of these languages than following the paths that was opened by Ghalib and Faiz...........................

I am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter. So for example, although Mantolives writes in perfect english with hardly even a spelling mistake, yet his posts are some of the most non-sensical ones posted here. So obviously, having a solid command of english is not helping him.

Just the other day he opened a thread on unplugged in an english more suited for prep and Ivy league educated elite than a self-styled aspiring lawyer in Lahore. But then he crapped all over when he suggested, using his full command of language and an astonishingly powerful vocabulary, that Yusuf Yohanna converted to Islam under ``duress``. And that his conversion was a ``slap in the face of every Pakistani``.

I tapped on my very limited english language command to eek out three words: ``Please provide evidence``. Unfortunately, despite his vast grasp of English and bottomless reservoir of vocabulary, Manto has yet to come up with an answer to that.

I do agree with Romair that our national leaders should speak in our national language. I don`t know much about Vajpayee or Indian politics, but when i heard him speak to his nation in perfect Hindi, i was pleasantly surprised and felt a little pride for Indians.

The vile mixture of Urdu with English words thrown in, that do not fit or flow in any way with Urdu is horrible, and to hear it from your leader is even more disappointing. To top it off, the English words are taken directly, without any attempt to Urdufy them so that they flow with language. This creates an ugly awkward sounding speech.

The lack of development and progress of Urdu and other South Asian languages, and the deep desire to speak anything other than those languages, to me, shows low self-esteem, and lack of pride and confidence in ones culture. It shows the emotional and mental state of our people and leaders.

ally..

I don`t think this is a way to judge a Prime Minister... pray tell why should a Keralite Indian, if elected Prime Minister, know Hindi. Romair is being cute with his post (his next post will be an unrestrained and abusive attack on the Quaid)... but English language is the only language suited for the leadership of South Asia... unless ofcourse you want to isolate the leadership to Hindi and Urdu speaking folk.


Re: Atif`s ilog

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nonsensical or otherwise, including Atif sahab.

I refrained from commenting on the Youhanna issue for several days, despite provocation from our Indian friends, but it was after Ijaz Gul`s convincing testimony regarding the rather shady events vis a vis Pakistan Cricket Team of early 2000s, I concluded that it was under duress.

Here I must say that even if what Ijaz Gul said was untrue, still I`d call it duress for one cannot describe the atmosphere of the Pakistani cricket team as very cordial to non-Muslims or even to Muslims who may not toe the line/religiousity set by the senior players. There is NOTHING more insulting to human intelligence and endeavor than the captain of the Pakistani cricket team to go and infront of millions declare that ``Almight Allah`` was actually siding with the Pakistan cricket team. I consider all of this duress- that God sides with only Muslims- that Pakistani cricket team plays for Islam etc etc.

Ofcourse I admit ab initio that none of this will satisfy Atif - well none of it is meant to satisfy him- infact this is simply a response to an ill-thought and misplaced allegation.

Yours sincerely,

Y.L.Hamdani

Manto

Is Hindi not India`s national language? Anyways, the issue isn`t India and their linguistic issues, it is us (Pakistan) and our linguistic issues - Vajpayee was cited solely as an example. We don`t have the complexity of India and its many languages, therefore its not so much of an issue for us if Urdu is the national language, as it might be for Indians if Hindi is theirs.

Plus what is right for India isn`t always right for Pakistan. Yes it is important to learn English as it is the worlds new dominant language. However, to give it precedence over your own is wrong.

Many ppl use the excuse `Urdu is not technically advanced enough` my reply to that is that we should make it so then.

In Turkey and France there are institutes that create new words and terminology as it is needed instead of borrowing blatantly from English without any modification, as we do. An example we should all understand, the Turkish word for Mobile Phone is Cep Fon (Pronounced Jeb) as in Pocket Phone, it makes sense. In Pakistan we say Mobile Phone (or a variation of it) and transliterate it directly into the Urdu Script, resulting in ugly formations of hard T`s and D`s for many words.

There are many words like Phone and Internet that are universally used and accepted, fine fair enough, however, we should develop our own language and encourage its usage as opposed to using bad English.

When there is pride in your language and you use it, other people also learn your language, and cater for you too. Example, You get Microsoft everything in Arabic what do you get in Urdu? (there is no technical issue here, as the scripts are similar)

Is there an Urdu/punjabi/Sindhi/Balochi/Pushto Windows produced by Microsoft? There are many add on`s etc, often produced by third party companies.

When you go to Turkey or France you see Turkish or French keyboards. When you go into an internet cafe in Istanbul the version of windows you encounter is Turkish not English. I live in the UK but my mobile phone gives me Turkish as well as languages as obscure as Danish, language options.

All these technical companies cater for all these other languages but not Urdu, because our ppl who do use technology (and they are increasing everyday) would prefer to use English, as they don`t see their own languages fit enough for this `madern cheez`, nor do many of them see the people who speak these languages fit enough.

Even national institutions dont have Urdu version websites, pia has zip on their website and their magazine is mainly in English with two articles in Urdu, Indian Airlines on the other hand do have a Hindi website (http://indian-airlines.nic.in/scripts/index_h.asp) currently under construction/renovation - They have had a fully functional one in the past. How are govt. websites supposed to be of any use if they cannot cater to those ppl who they are meant to serve? I have not seen one Pakistani govt. website in Urdu, here is the link to the main page of Govt. of Pakistan website http://www.pakistan.gov.pk/ - its ALL in English not even a few pages in Urdu. Its almost as if the site was made as a showcase for goras, and not to supply Pakistani ppl with relevant information.

Though these attitudes are changing slowly as many `pindoo` ppl get access to technology, and it is when these ppl get access that respect for our languages will increase, as the govt. starts to find the internet a good way of distributing River and Crop information to farmers in Punjab, Sindh etc. It cannot expect to do so in English. It will have to do so in the common language of the common man.

Re: # 23

Manto Sahib. How about making Arbi our national language? Instead of teaching kids the Quran, they should be taught Arabic language, so they can learn Quran on their own (if they want to). There are many advantages to making Arbi our national language. Firstly, it will raise the per capita IQ of the Arabic speaking world by at least 10 fold, and secondly, we will have huge amount of oil coming out of our national tunnel.

Manto Sahib, I also carry a National ID card, it lists my religion, but not my language. Did you pay extra money to get your language listed? I am talking about the card itself, and not the Form Bay or Form Noon Ghunaa.

Regards.

Hindi was mandated to be India`s national language but fortunately for them no one dared impose it.

Turkey and France are largely monolithic countries with Turkey having some Arab and Kurdish speaking population... let me remind you - Pakistan has several languages not just Urdu... Let me give you a better example... it is a little known Jinnah spoke Gujrati and Cutchie- perhaps even better than he spoke English- (Roses in December by M C Chagla) ... should he have started speaking Gujrati while addressing crowds in Lahore or Delhi? This is why it is unfortunate that the Urdu-speaking lobby prevailed on Jinnah to declare Urdu as the national language. I have no problem with Urdu- but it is not the language of the majority and in our federation no one ethnic identity should have veto on the issue of language ... for that is patently against the principle on which we got the country.

I think Urdu is an awesome language... and despite being a Punjabi, but national ID card lists Urdu as my mother tongue (ironic because Punjabi is listed as my parents` mother tongue) - however it won`t work. I certainly speak and write Urdu better than most people here... but I know that it won`t work-- It just won`t... and any attempt to do so will result in terrific disaster.... not just economically and commercially but also nationally...

So let English an alien language be the language of Pakistani leaders... for then Baloch or Sindhi or or Pathan or even a Punjabi would have no objections.

-YLH

What do you expect? Urdu? English ruled the world. Naturally, their language became the lingua franca of the globe. Its as simple as that.

Re: # 26
Manto Ji.. I know that the NIC (for those living in Pakistan) doesn’t list one’s religion, but it used to be of different color for minorities (I happened to carry one, until I ran into a monkey with his tail lifted upward – yeah, you guessed it right, I shoved my card up where it rightfully belonged). Color speaks louder than the words.

India has over 50 national languages. Pakistan can easily do that. The best way to resolve the linguistic issues of Pakistan are to break the problem into smaller components – i.e., let each Province decide for itself what it wants (in doing so, Urud speakers should not be represented, as it is not the language of any of the provinces).

Excuse me.... The National Identity Card DOES NOT contain religion column... the passport does....

Mother tongue and Religion are listed in the Computer Data that is available when your number is entered onto the computer screen. If you have a computerised NIC which is the only acceptable NIC ... then you would have had to list your national language on the form.

ally#: leaders should always speak in the national language. Whatever that language may be. If it is Swahili, then they should speak Swahili. It is quite ridiculous to make speeches in the national language of another country. How many other countries do that? It is nothing more than a sign of an inferiority complex. A huge one, at that.......

If people want national leaders to speak in English, then they should declare English the national language. And then speak in it, all they want.

Everyone in Pakistan understands Urdu. They learn in voluntarily. Hardly anyone considers it being imposed on them. It is, infact, a uniting factor in Pakistan, now. Hardly anyone understands English. One would have to step outside the elitist parts of Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad to realize that. If Musharraf is making a speech at the UN, and 90% of his own countrymen cannot understand it, then what is the point.

Such elitism in Pakistan is disgusting, at least, in my opinion. The voice of 90% or more of the population is never heard. Not because they are not intelligent. But because they cannot speak English. One can understand that being bi-lingual in any country, should give one an advantage in the job field. But why should it give anyone an advantage socially?

Why is their a fake hierarchy based on knowledge of a foreign language? How many other countries have such a hierarchy? I meet Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, French, etc. daily, who cannot speak a word of English. Their countries seem to be doing fine.

The attempt to keep English as a social pedestal is nothing more than an attempt to keep the society divided, between haves and have-nots. For example, Chowk`s whole tone and content would be different, if everyone had access to it, i.e. Urdu font was available and poor people in Pakistan had access to the Internet. Then one would see the views of the real Pakistan. But now it is simply a place for rich Westernised English speaking folks.........

This is not to say that people should discard English. It should be learned, because it is the language of the world and of technology. One should try to master it. But it is not the language of Pakistan. It is not the naitonal language. It is not what people in Pakistan understand.

So, either declare English to be the national language, or on all naitonal issues, speeches etc., speak in Urdu..............

Manto

Leaders have to speak to their ppl, and right now the only language in our country that is understood widely (maybe not spoken or written) is Urdu and NOT English. A Sindhi villager will understand Musharaf more if Mush spoke in Urdu than English. This is due to the fact the Urdu is more closely related to Sindhi than is English, and there are many overlaps, thus helping the Sindhi only speaker to understand more. Apart from this, the Sindhi villager has probably seen many Hindi/Urdu movies and probably sings their songs while working in the fields. Urdu in Pakistan, is more widely understood than English, and that is a fact.

Pakistan may have many languages, why should that stop anything or anyone taking pride and valuing our national language. But just as i value Urdu, i value my mother tongue Punjabi too, and respect the mother tongues of other Pakistanis. Urdu is the language that brings all Pakistanis together, it saves us time because we dont have to learn the other major Pakistani languages to communicate with those who do not speak our language.

Example, A dhoti clad Punjabi cloth merchant from Faisalabad, discussing the transportation of his cloth to Karachi with a turbaned Baluchi truck driver from Zhob, what language do you think they will converse in???

English is no where near that.

atif2 #19: `` am of this opinion that grammar, vocabulary or writing style are really just the mechanical aspects of a language. Putting ``meanings`` in writing is an entirely different matter.``

You are quite correct. The main part of any poetry or prose is the imagination of the individual writing it. But, certain languages do give one a lot of flexibility in the way they can be structured. English, in that regard, is very limited. And hence makes poetry quite difficult. There are very few extensions and changes one can bring into English words, without adding extra words.

While Urdu allows all kinds of extensions, chains, changes, alterations of words, thereby, making poetry quite a bit easier. The same verse can be cut down to half its size by chaining. One does not need to use unnecessary prepositions, in Urdu.

In prose, prepositions, chains, prefixes and suffixes are not as important, hence English comes out as an equally, ``easy`` language........

National vs State language

Because... Ally Pakistan is a federation under a federal constitution and a Sindhi or a Balochi is not very happy to accept Urdu as the national language. I think we have had too much heartbreak to even attempt to restart that issue... Neither English nor Urdu can be the sole national language of Pakistan ... this is not what I say... this is what the people of Sindh and Balochistan say... however it is constitutionally mandated as such so Romair`s only case is through Article 251 of the constitution which has never completely been implemented... it must be remembered that Romair is against the Constitution of Pakistan...

I love Urdu more than the next guy but I love Pakistan more... but to make it the single national language has proved disastrous in the past... (infact I stand corrected- Jinnah`s position was that Urdu was to be the state language not the national language- even that has not happened or can`t happen).... it is an unnecessary debate ... unnecessary because it is the single most divisive issue (more than religion/secularism-which romair claims but which one does not really see) for Pakistan today.

Look at India... it has DONE well without ever officially imposing Hindi... despite the constitutional provision.