The Naked Fakir

Nowhere during the process of casting slurs at Gandhi do we think of him as a human being.Some of us tend to find scapegoats for the failures experienced by us as a nation today, some of us do not even think that far and just think of his policies as the signs of an old man`s impotence. I too believe that Gandhi was not a Mahatma, because I do not believe in the sanctity of the word, and I too agree that Gandhi had no place in the India of today surrounded by hostile neighbours and arms races, he would have been a burden on the national decision makers, but for what it`s worth, I do think that Gandhi was a great man, he was one of the greatest contributors to forge a movement from a random motion, and he was true to his principles, besides being one of the greatest leader of men.If you can find one more person of that kind in Indian history, that would be the time to rewrite history.Gandhi bashing has become a sort of idle passtime for us, like swatting flies, cursing the government, we want blood, we want grenades, we want to hear of the bloody firangis being crushed like flies in the thundering rush of a charge led by the likes of Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra Bose, but great men as they were, India did not, and does not have the power of self control necessary to sustain a violent freedom struggle, and even as we plagiarise Gandhi today, I see scrawled on the walls of my college slogans like `Netaji Subhash will return to save the nation` written by a band of boys high on mescaline, I am forced to think, is that the height of impotence and cowardice or not ? Subhash Chandra Bose did his bit, he is probably dead and ash now, he was a normal man and not Jesus to be resurrected, he will return to save the country, what are we doing meanwhile, are we some sort of passengers who do not have to pay for the ride ? Pick from your favourite freedom fighters, pick Bhagat Singh or Subhash Chandra Bose for their (imagined) bloodthirst and dialogue delivery, leave your judgement to the likes of RajKumar Santoshi, ask Leo Mattel to produce mass manufactured action figures for Khudiram Bose or Ram Prasad Bismil, and make Gandhi the butt of all our jokes. That is what we are reduced to today.

no where in your article you mention the reason behind `` Gandi`s esape from south africa``

if he was so non violent type of guy then why didn`t he protest and protected black africans of south africa just like nelson mandela or coz he was selfish and wanted the power of HIS people

I am trying to understand the real reason for knee jerk anger at Gandhi shown by some of the mentally challenged posters on this board. Is it due to your feeling that Gandhi`s strategy of non-violent opposition is an ineffective approach or are there some other reasons for your anger at him. If it is the former, then I cannot tell you how retarded that line of thinking is. There are two major examples in modern history that show the effectiveness of his approach. I am talking of course about Civil rights movement in US and ANC struggle in south africa. How in the world would you guys miss these facts. For his given circumstances, Gandhi followed a very effective way to achieve his ``objectives``.

Now I agree that his tactics wouldn`t have worked against enemies such as Nazis or hordes of Muhammadan army running across hindu kush mountains.... and he himself admitted that fact in an interview. But his was definitely an effective technique against a less than maniacal enemies.

I only wish that idiotic jehadis take a cue from history`s examples and follow a pragmatic approach in Palestine and Iraq. But given the idiotic psuedo-macho culture and self induced semi-retardedness I know that will never happen. How sad.

He accepted it? Like, was there a crowning ceremony of sorts? :)

May be, you mean that he stopped protesting against it after a while.

Re: # 224

did you know, i found out that when tagore gave him that title he refused to acknowledge it, but later in 47 did accept it and all the problems associated with it.

Re: # 224

what happened to those fiery replies and cut&paste ?

you are entitled to your views. fine with me.

anyway, did you find anything from naidu on gandhi (about women)

also, did you explain what see meant by ``millions spent to keep..``, just curious

Don`t need to ...

There was NO Mahatma.. only Gandhi.

Re: # 222

manto

read 221, now you understand the difference in gandhi and mahatma.

Yes.. Soyasauce... more personal attacks because you can`t defend indefensible.

Re: # 218

GANDHI THE PRISONER
A comparison of prison experiences and conditions of
Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela in South Africa(1)
by Nelson Mandela



During his imprisonment in Pretoria, all his fellow prisoners were Africans (Natives as they were then referred to, even by ourselves), and they, seeing him so different from them, were curious to know what he was doing in prison. Had he stolen, or dealt in liquor?

He explained that he had refused to carry a pass. They understood that perfectly well. ``Quite right,`` they said to him, ``the white people are bad.`` Gandhi had been initially shocked that Indians were classified with Natives in prison; his prejudices were quite obvious, but he was reacting not to ``Natives``, but criminalised Natives.

He believed that Indians should have been kept separately. However, there was an ambivalence in his attitude for he stated,

``It was, however, as well that we were classed with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to see the treatment meted out to Natives, their conditions (of life in gaol), and their habits.``

All in all, Gandhi must be forgiven those prejudices and judged in the context of the time and the circumstances. We are looking here at the young Gandhi, still to become Mahatma, when he was without any human prejudice, save that in favour of truth and justice.

Re: # 218

manto:

can you produce gandhis racist attitude on blacks after he became mahatma, mind you he wasn`t one in 1908.
as specified previously, gandhi in africa was different than gandhi later, in india. thats what you are not comprehending (knowingly).
as several have told you gandhi evolved, his thought process changed. If he was not thrown out may be he would have never returned to india.

Re: # 218
Correction - foulmouthed, misogynist :)
Another correction - it was NOT a comparison
Are you going to be arguing in Urdu whe you pass the bar? I hope so. English doesn`t seem to serve you well.

Still no comparison between a 19 year old foul mouthed kid and a 40 year old Mahatma Barrister

Re: # 216
Yasser, I`m reminding you to see how you were/are a product of your environment. That goes for pretty much everyone.
On the racism charge, if you put the interests of your group ahead of everyone else`s that`s implied racism. I grant you that Gandhiji was blind to the sufferings of the native South Africans. He was attached to the indians there and saw himself as belonging to a quasi- ruling class by virtue of his educational and financial status. He got a rude lesson in how wrong he was when he was thrown out of the train compartment as a blackie.
Where he changed was in recognizing the common humanity of us all. Despite what Ambedkar had to say - and I can cite a lot of dalit leaders who agreed with Gandhiji - he was the most influential uppercaste hindu to militate against the oppression of the dalits. Could he have gone further? Surely. Did he go far? Certainly.

PS: God forbid... I`d rather die than be compared to gandhi...

Please read the post again... I am arguing that since you are unwilling (quite justifiably) to forget that at age 19, I, no Mahatma, abused Hamidm`s wife... you infact want to debate it ...

And yet you ask me to forget that Gandhi espoused the most racist views at age 40, and views which he clearly did not dissociate himself from... and not discuss that?

You see the hypocrisy?

Soyasauce....

So now it is a personal attack on me because you can`t defend Gandhi ? Its not about a 19 year old (here even 40 year old Indians abuse my entire family so lets not go there)... and what he said to Hamidm 6 years ago....

If Gandhi evolved... we have no evidence of that.. lets leave it at that.

Re: # 209

Gandhiji did evolve/change over time. He, however, was the product of his time and quite a traditionalist on some matters and way ahead of his time and a revolutionary on some other matters. His recognition that civil disobedience is a powerful weapon in the hands of the powerless is, no matter how you slice it, is still revolutionary although in trying to be consistent he was led into some absurd positions.
[He didn`t do a very good job as a father in his personal life. Ironically, there was book written by one of his female associates - ``Bapu - my mother``.]
Coming back to your own folly, I am in no way comparing you to Gandhiji - I wouldn`t even dream of it so rest assured ;)
However, if you and hamidm are in cordial terms now, it`s to his credit not to yours. Moreover, whereas I can understand a 19-year old being ``foulmouthed``, I still cannot understand why you brought his wife into the picture. Did you grow up in an environment where it was common to abuse women as a matter of course? How did this come about?
This was more than being foulmouthed, this was misogynic, a malady common in our part of the world and alas, not even modern education could cure you of it.
Think about poor Gandhiji, a success by the European standards, and yet no better than the ``kafirs``* that the Europeans held in contempt. What was he to do other than aspire to be like them?
(*kafir is an interesting term to describe someone not your own - I wonder why he chose that one)

Manto, Ambedkar`s or dalits` case is entirely different. They have suffered so much that he had a full right to take an entirely casteist view of Hinduism and even Gandhi. That can`t be the case with the rest of the world.

Why Gandhi said things or did things with regard to race is not so very important for me, for reasons I have described. Still (and don`t think of it as a challenge!), what logical repercussions do you see of a lawyer representing only his client who legally hires the lawyer and pays his bills? Can we say that Gandhi acted in South Africa only as most lawyers do (even as a bad one)?

One would think that most lawyers did not achieve as much in South Africa as he did.

Ironic...

That this is the line of argument that you have been forced to take. That gandhi was there only as a lawyer... representing the Indian community... please do consider the logical repercussions of this.

BTW Ambedkar held in 1946 that Gandhi was the worst enemy of untouchables in India...

I will continue to post the other half of the truth...

Mantolives

Yours and Gandhi`s growth years were very different. Most importantly, he did not have the Internet for people like us to teach him (kidding you, my friend).

And in sheer IQ, Nehru probably beat him. Neither could Gandhi ever become as modern as Nehru naturally was.

But Gandhi the conservative did choose Nehru the liberal as his heir. Gandhi also saved Nehru`s rear from assault by Nehru`s more conservative opponents many times.

That`s one of the things that made the man that he was.

Entire South African existence, including its constitution, revolved around racial gradations. One`s rights flowed from where one stood on racial totem pole. Gandhi went there *explicity* to act as the lawyer for the Indian community. It was his *explicit* charge to get Indians a better deal. He was probably paid for it (some one please confirm).

He *should* have acted for the Africans too. He *should not* made have some of the arguments he placed before the authorities, for whom in South Africa, race mattered so much. But to take him to task for those shortcomings in hindsight seems a stretch.

---

I avoid pasting long articles here, but the following article may yet change minds. It comes from the African National Congress website (the Internet has become more a trash can than a library. One should be very careful in using it for reference).

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/people/gandhi/1.html

Eighty years ago, on January 9, 1915, M.K. Gandhi returned to Bombay after 21 years in exile, wearing a loin cloth and travelling from London in the lowest class of the ship. He was acclaimed by the whole nation which was inspired by his struggle and sacrifice in South Africa for the honour of the ``Motherland``. As he went around the country with Kasturba, the heroine of the last phase of the South African struggle, huge receptions were held and addresses presented to him in every city. ``Moderates`` welcomed him as much as ``extremists``, Muslims and Parsis as much as Hindus.

This Gandhi had little relation to the M.K. Gandhi, the 23-year-old barrister in a suit, who had sailed from Bombay in April 1893 by first class in the hope of finding opportunity in a new land.

In later years, Gandhiji said that he was born in India but ``made`` in South Africa;

``it was after I went to South Africa that I became what I am now``.

He told the Kanpur Congress in 1925 that ``Indians of South Africa claim that they have given me to you. I accept that claim. It is perfectly true that whatever service I have been able to render... to India, comes from South Africa.``

To understand the evolution and transformation of Gandhiji in South Africa, it is necessary to note, as he himself stressed on several occasions, that he was not a born saint and had not had an extraordinary childhood or youth.

He said in a speech in 1925:

``I never had a brilliant career. I was all my life a plodder. When I went to England... I couldn`t put together two sentences correctly. On the steamer I was a drone... I finished my three years in England as a drone.``

---

One can read rest of the article on the ANC website. Please do look it up. It`s not long. It also has some comments regarding women.

soya,

I accept that view... people do change their views over time.
Did Gandhi change his views? According to Dr B R Ambedkar he didn`t.
But lets say he did... do his earlier choices become irrelevant in toto?

Despite the fact that hamidm and I are on cordial terms... I don`t hear the end of it from people like you and I was an foul mouthed teenager unlike Gandhi the 35 year old barrister...

Seriously you can`t have both ways.

Re: # 203
The point is people grow up/change. It`s more than likely you`ll discredit/disown some of your current opinions 5 years from now. Even more likely if you were to put down every thought that occurs to you unconcerned about propreity.
Gandhiji was a successful lawyer working for rich businessmen in SA. To be treated on par with natives instead of being considered as equal to the ruling classes was indeed a shock to him. His views on the superiority of the Europeans and the inferiority of the natives underwent considerable change with time.

``he declared Hindus worshipped the cow while Muslims ate it, etc. ``

Yes... that is equal to Gandhi saying ``Black people are subhuman``.

If Gandhi`s exclusivist bigotry, despite his overt claim to speak for everyone, is not clear to people from his statements like ``I am true Hindu, therefore an Indian`` ... then I am afraid nothing will explain it better. It was this experience... the experience of being called the ``gentleman from the minority Muslim community`` that turned people like Jinnah away from the cause they dedicated their entire lives to... the exclusivism starts with Gandhi...
whose casteism, racism and bigotry is on ample display and who was called the worst enemy of the untouchables by none other than Ambedkar...


I suppose by the logic that Sadna uses even Ambedkar was racist... because his writings are full of ``hate`` against Hindus (and yes Muslims too) ... and his words are infinitely harsher than Jinnah`s...

Dear Sadna,

I have already replied to your lies about Jinnah in posts 177, 189, 195... you have nothing new to offer ... It seems to me that you believe in the Old Gandhian theory that the more you repeat something, the more it becomes the truth.

I will however respond to the part about Gandhiji- the original topic of discussion

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)

This date is not South Africa... In 1927 Gandhi was NOT in South Africa. He had already usurped the Indian Independence movement, he already encouraged the Mullahs in the Khilafat movement, he had already communalised the environment. Sanghtan it must be recalled was a movement to re-convert Muslims and Christians to Hinduism/Arya Samaj.

Furthermore you write:

``you would be unable to find any later occasion or later instance when Gandhi, as a political activist in India excluded any community from his life, his politics or his party``

Let us consider some of his other more famous statements:

1- ``I am a true Hindu and therefore an Indian``

2- ``The rule of a Musalman is that of a Bully``

3-(`` (1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system. Gandhi in 1922- also India)


4-In 1922, Mr. Gandhi was a defender of the caste system. Pursuing the inquiry, one comes across a somewhat critical view of the caste system by Mr. Gandhi in the year 1925. This is what Mr. Gandhi said on 3rd February 1925:

The best remedy is that small castes should fuse themselves into one big caste. There should be four big castes so that we may reproduce the old system of four Varnas.


5-((1) I believe that the divisions into Varna is based on birth.
(2) There is nothing in the Varna system which stands in the way of the Shudra acquiring learning or studying military art of offense or defense. Contra it is open to a Kshatriya to serve. The Varna system is no bar to him. What the Varna system enjoins is that a Shudra will not make learning a way of earning a living. Nor will a Kshatriya adopt service as a way of learning a living. [Similarly a Brahmin may learn the art of war or trade. But he must not make them a way of earning his living. Contra a Vaishya may acquire learning or may cultivate the art of war. But he must not make them a way of learning his living.]

(3) The Varna system is connected with the way of earning a living. There is no harm if a person belonging to one Varna acquires the knowledge or science and art specialized in by persons belonging to other Varnas. But as far as the way of earning his living is concerned he must follow the occupation of the Varna to which he belongs which means he must follow the hereditary profession of his forefathers.

(4) The object of the Varna is to prevent competition and class struggle and class war. I believe in the Varna system because it fixes the duties and occupations of persons.

(5) Varna means the determination of a man`s occupation before he is born.

(6) In the Varna system no man has any liberty to choose his occupation. His occupation is determined for him by heredity.`` )


More later...

-YLH

Mantolives #203
You still don`t point out where did Gandhi practise exclusion - did he discriminate against people on basis of castes or religions. No. Did he exclude any community from membership of his party. No. Did he claim to represent only one community? No. Jinnah did.

Jinnah`s policies towards and hate speech against Hindus were pretty racist. He demanded that Hindus must not be granted a majority, he stated that Hindus were unfit for democracy unlike Muslims, he declared Hindus would destroy Muslims and Islam in India, he declared Hindus worshipped the cow while Muslims ate it, etc.

As for deep Muslim alienation - the solution demanded by Muslims for their deep alienation was a sovereign state Pakistan which was created 58 years ago. It is quite clear that the solution didn`t work as Jinnah claimed it would, because today Pakistani Muslims who are now in 97% majority still declare themselves victims, don`t take responsibility for they do and blame Gandhi, Nehru and Hindus for ongoing events in Pakistan.

I go cold thinking that if Pakistani Muslims declare themselves victims of Hindus when they are in 97% majority and existing in a separate state, what they would have termed themselves as a 25% minority existing with Hindus in the same state- the whole of India would have been in flames of a Muslim jihad all these last 58 years. Instead of hearing daily ranting about J&K, we would be hearing of the sufferings of Muslims of undivided India and their ``freedom`` from Hindus would have become a world cause like Palestine. Best that those Muslims got their freedom in 1947 and do their victimhood tamashas by themselves in their own Pakistani territory without disrupting the rest of the subcontinent.

The inability of Pakistani Muslims to cease being victims even at 97% majority also makes clear that they are a group of people in a permanent state of alienation. If Gandhi and Nehru did alienate them back then, then Gandhi and Nehru did a big favor to all the succeeding generations of Indians by saving these Indians from the inevitable blame of `alienating the Muslims`.

soyasauce,

Is 19 the same as 40?


Sadna,

What a cop out... Gandhi`s views on caste didn`t go through any radical change ... Ambedkar called him a caste Hindu fanatic even in the 1940s... and called him the biggest enemy of scheduled castes and minorities. I think Gandhian politics, despite its overt displays of goody goodiness, was in the end a deeply Hindu focused politics... which alienated the Muslims. So you might not see 199 as examples of Gandhi`s exclusivism... but then you always had weird logic.


Refer to 199 and read it carefuly... to see Gandhi`s exclusivism.

Yasser
Aren`t you the same guy that insinuated you had slept with hamidm`s wife? Are you the same guy still? Were you not old enough when you made that brilliant claim?

People grow and change.
Gandhiji never denied anything about himself.
His was an open book where he wrote about everything uninhibited and unhindered by political considerations. If what he wrote makes him look ``racist`` then so be it.
You should also read Ved Mehta`s book on Gandhiji where he mentions that Gandhiji didn`t mind the presence of others in the communal latrine when he was going about his duties and would carry on conversations. Contrast that with Jinnah who probably had imported special, noise-masking Japanese toilets. One more blot on Gandhiji.

Mantolives #199
Gandhi`s views on caste/varna evolved with time as you well know. You also fail to point out where did he practice exclusion in his life, his politics and his party?

DM#192
Ok, and I understand that post.

When racist ``Mahatma``, rather than trying to save his own hindu race, was fasting in Calcutta trying to save ``muslims``, astute constitutionalists were instigating direct action days, and planning to become all powerful governor generals.

Dear Sadna,

I have already replied to your lies about Jinnah in posts 177, 189, 195... you have nothing new to offer ... It seems to me that you believe in the Old Gandhian theory that the more you repeat something, the more it becomes the truth.

I will however respond to the part about Gandhiji- the original topic of discussion

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)

This date is not South Africa... In 1927 Gandhi was NOT in South Africa. He had already usurped the Indian Independence movement, he already encouraged the Mullahs in the Khilafat movement, he had already communalised the environment. Sanghtan it must be recalled was a movement to re-convert Muslims and Christians to Hinduism/Arya Samaj.

Furthermore you write:

``you would be unable to find any later occasion or later instance when Gandhi, as a political activist in India excluded any community from his life, his politics or his party``

Let us consider some of his other more famous statements:

1- ``I am a true Hindu and therefore an Indian``

2- ``The rule of a Musalman is that of a Bully``

3-(`` (1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system. Gandhi in 1922- also India)


4-In 1922, Mr. Gandhi was a defender of the caste system. Pursuing the inquiry, one comes across a somewhat critical view of the caste system by Mr. Gandhi in the year 1925. This is what Mr. Gandhi said on 3rd February 1925:

The best remedy is that small castes should fuse themselves into one big caste. There should be four big castes so that we may reproduce the old system of four Varnas.


5-((1) I believe that the divisions into Varna is based on birth.
(2) There is nothing in the Varna system which stands in the way of the Shudra acquiring learning or studying military art of offense or defense. Contra it is open to a Kshatriya to serve. The Varna system is no bar to him. What the Varna system enjoins is that a Shudra will not make learning a way of earning a living. Nor will a Kshatriya adopt service as a way of learning a living. [Similarly a Brahmin may learn the art of war or trade. But he must not make them a way of earning his living. Contra a Vaishya may acquire learning or may cultivate the art of war. But he must not make them a way of learning his living.]

(3) The Varna system is connected with the way of earning a living. There is no harm if a person belonging to one Varna acquires the knowledge or science and art specialized in by persons belonging to other Varnas. But as far as the way of earning his living is concerned he must follow the occupation of the Varna to which he belongs which means he must follow the hereditary profession of his forefathers.

(4) The object of the Varna is to prevent competition and class struggle and class war. I believe in the Varna system because it fixes the duties and occupations of persons.

(5) Varna means the determination of a man`s occupation before he is born.

(6) In the Varna system no man has any liberty to choose his occupation. His occupation is determined for him by heredity.`` )


More later...

-YLH

Yasser Hamdani : ``If you think you can tire me out by your lies, think again. First you`ll give up, then I`ll start my replies... and you will go through another 10 months of hell.``

Threats of an impotent eunuch.

But `10 months of hell` ? Thats exactly what the high school boys gave to Manto when he was ateacher at their school. Suffices to say long blunt rods were used for penetrative purposes....manto is still hurting.....

gssingh,
this is called samudra-mathan.. churning of the oceans as per hindu mythology.
it throws up some jewels and some poison ..

Mantolives #195
Er again it was not Jinnah`s membership which was the question, it was nonMuslim Pakistanis membership and Jinnah kindly explained the Muslim League`s position to the BBC correspondent on their behalf when he had been out of the party for only two days.

You are denying Jinnah`s political isolation of millions of nonMuslim Pakistanis for a long period before and even after independence while making a big deal about Gandhi`s earliest political activism in S. Africa. The reason for your apparent fixation on that earliest period is that is you would be unable to find any later occasion or later instance when Gandhi, as a political activist in India excluded any community from his life, his politics or his party. In this Gandhi was as unlike Jinnah as was possible.

Poor Sadna...

How pathetic... defending racist Gandhi by twisting Jinnah`s words...

No Jinnah was simply stating the facts- that the Muslim League had voted against making it a national party (which it did on December 17th) and accordingly Jinnah had resigned from the party.... but he believed that in future this situation maybe reversed.

However... it was something Gandhi had forcefuly said earlier:


`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)

If this is racism (though race =A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.) then Gandhi is doubly racist.

-YLH

PS If you think you can tire me out by your lies, think again. First you`ll give up, then I`ll start my replies... and you will go through another 10 months of hell.

gsinghh # 191

Welcome. You are already ahead of where I was when I first came to Chowk.

Mantolives#189
Pl. understand what Jinnah was saying. He was saying even eminent and talented Pakistanis like Jogendranath Mandal and the guy who wrote the national anthem could not be members of the Muslim League at that time. Nor would Muslim League seek their votes. The party which created their country would not seek their votes because they happened to be nonMuslims.

How would a Pakistani American like it if it is decreed that a white Christian guy standing for election in his neighbourhood does not need to seek his vote? I am guessing that Pakistani American would howl discrimination, not secularism.

friend#190:

The original post was #30.

this is really ggreat time pass. one person write up the article. people jump up on it to interact-or head on collision.
since I am a new on the this. I am surprisingly enjoying this. keep it up. may be lot of people like me learn from hare about so much stuff they use to read in their school time in the history books and what they are finding out today.

dost-mittar #144

``After reading these articles, I stick to what I said in my original post. It is quite clear that while Gandhi learnt of the large-scale slaughter of hindu men and their widows being forced to convert and marry their husbands` killers at Noakhali, he went back to Delhi without ameliorating the situation and then chose to go to Calcutta instead where he knew he had a better chance of ``STOPPING`` marauding hindus on rampage against hapless muslims. ``

DM
Now I am confused. Are you suggesting that Gandhi should have done something else to satisfy you of his credentials?
Please summarize what you said in your ``original`` post. There are too many of them.

Sadna

Still railing on horrible Jinnah because you can`t defend that racist casteist Mahatma?


Talk about specious arguments... and outright lying.

What religion was Jinnah`s law minister? Was he appointed on a Muslim League seat in the interim Government?
A Hindu. and yes he was...

Who wrote Pakistan`s first national anthem?
A Hindu


There goes your argument flat on the road.

I am afraid your argument is stretching it-as usual you are twisting history because thats all you are capable of doing...

About the Muslim League ... remember it is the Muslim League ... remember it is the party that Jinnah had left 2 days earlier because it had Unlike Gandhi, Jinnah didn`t say that any of this was irrevocable... he said clearly that with time progress would be made... So Jinnah says that public opinion is not ready to open the ``Muslim`` league up to non-Muslims, a party he himself had quit 2 days earlier... that is morally equivalent to Gandhi calling all Black people racist.

Shame Sadna shame for being a liar... a deceitful gandhian indeed.

Mantolives #177
Jinnah did not want nonMuslims in the Muslim League at that time. He wanted to continue the political isolation of the Pakistani minorities from the majority Muslims, an isolation which he had imposed on them from before independence..

This was totally inconsistent with the principles of secular governance which you keep claiming Jinnah espoused and you would be howling if it had been Gandhi or Nehru instead who ever decreed in similar fashion `no nonHindus in Congress at this time`. And they never did ever. Even Vallahbhai Patel when speaking to the Cabinet Mission refused to accept that only Jinnah must have the eternal right to appoint Muslims to office because he said that would mean that Congress Muslims would have to leave the Congress.

Let us just admit that you have a huge double standard - one standard for Muslims and another for nonMuslims.

As for your shameless misinterpretations about myself and `Hindu cultural life`- well, the existence of Hindu cultural life is not inconsistent with secular governance. It is a mystery why Muslims could demand and receive their own sovereign state because Jinnah argued it was needed to preserve their religion and their cultural life, but an Indian must not assume that Hindu cultural life will find a place among other elements of cultural and national life in India.

Let us just admit that you have a huge double standard - one standard for Muslims and another for nonMuslims.

I agree with you in entirety my dear Sunlight... though Jinnah, unlike Nehru, was not born in a terribly affluent family. His family was quite traditional gujrati Ismaili Muslim...

However... one must not gloss over Gandhi`s flaws... hence the attempt by me to show the other side of the story.

Please refer to 34.

#174 by Mantolives
The only thing one can conclude is that at different times Gandhi was given to saying different things... which made him an unreliable operator.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Manto

Let me give my perspective on this, and since Jinnah has already been dragged into this debate, contrast with Jinnah (and Nehru).

Both Jinnah and Nehru were born in Westernized families and learnt their notions of equality, etc from Western books. They were essentially intellectuals and to a large extent theorists. But this also defined their limitations; neither of them was able to beyond Western theories such as nation state and Marxism; neither of them is considered the originator of a original and radical theory like non-violence.

Mahatma Gandhi, on the other hand was born into a traditional (casteist) family. Such people also generally accepted the racial superiority of the British, so it is not surprising that these were also Mahatma Gandhi`s early beliefs.

However, unlike both Jinnah and Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi was not a bookish person, though he was a voracious reader. It is notable that his autobiography is called My Experiments with Truth. The basic difference is that for Mahatma Gandhi, Truth is something to be found by experience, not read in a book, which is merely a source of ideas.

Given this difference, it would be surprising if one day at the age of 20 (or something like that) Mahatma Gandhi were to wake up and repudiate all the beliefs he had been born with. Instead, what we find is a steady evolution of his thought.

Mahatma Gandhi`s legacy is his belief in non-violence and his unending quest to find The Truth through experience. This is why he is admired in spite of his inconsistencies (due to the evolution of his thought).

A slightly different view of Gandhi and untouchables:

Gandhi & The Black Untouchables

---

Chapter 2
Mahatma Gandhi Unveiled
by
Naresh Majhi

---

As opposed to the popular perceptions, here you will see Gandhi`s image from the eyes of a very famous untouchable leader, named, Dr. B.R. Ambedkar (1893-1956). Born and raised as an untouchable, Dr. Ambedkar received his masters and Ph.D. from Columbia University, which later on also conferred upon him the Doctor of Law. Dr. Ambedkar also received a D.Sc. degree from London School of Economics, and the Bar-at-Law from the Grays Inn, London. Suffice to say, Dr. Ambedkar`s sharp intellect has provided us an insight into Gandhi, some of which we will like to share with you all. We recommend the following:

1. Nichols, Beverley. Verdict on India. New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company, 1944.

A book we highly recommend. Beverley Nichols, a famous novelist, musician, playwright, essayist, reporter, and a journalist visited British India. During this visit, he met Dr. Ambedkar, who told him:


``Gandhi is the greatest enemy the untouchables have ever had in India.``
So what did Ambedkar mean? Mr. Nichols explained it as follows:


[We can best explain it by a parallel. Take Ambedkar`s remark, and for the word ``untouchable`` substitute the word ``peace.`` Now imagine that a great champion of peace, like Lord Cecil, said, ``Gandhi is the greatest enemy of peace the world has ever had.`` What would he mean, using these words of the most spectacular pacifist of modern times? He would mean that passive resistance--which is Gandhi`s form of pacifism--could only lead to chaos and the eventual triumph of brute force; that to lie down and let people trample on you (which was Gandhi`s recipe for dealing with the Japanese) is a temptation to the aggressor rather than an example to the aggressed; and that in order to have peace you must organize, you must be strong, and that you must be prepared to use force. Mutatis mutandis, that is precisely what Ambedkar meant about the untouchables. He wanted them to be recognized and he wanted them to be strong. He rightly considered that the best way of gaining his object was by granting them separate electorates; a solid block of 60 million would be in a position to dictate terms to its oppressors. Gandhi fiercely opposed this scheme. ``Give the untouchables separate electorates,`` he cried, ``and you only perpetuate their status for all time.`` It was a queer argument, and those who were not bemused by the Mahatma`s charm considered it a phoney one. They suspected that Gandhi was a little afraid that 60 million untouchables might join up with the 100 million Muslims--(as they nearly did)--and challenge the dictatorship of the 180 million orthodox Hindus. With such irreverent criticisms were made to him, Gandhi resorted to his usual tactics: he began to fast unto death. (As if that altered the situation by a comma or proved anything but his own obstinacy!) There was a frenzy of excitement, ending in a compromise on the seventh day of the fast. The untouchables still vote in the same constituencies as the caste Hindus, but a substantial number of seats are now reserved for them in the provincial legislatures. It is better than nothing, but it is not nearly so good as it would have been if Gandhi had not interfered. That is what Doctor Ambedkar meant. And I think that he was right.]
2. Ambedkar, B.R. `What Congress and Gandhi Have Done to the Untouchables,` Bombay: Thacker & Co., Ltd, 2nd edition, 1946. Excerpts from this book were published in: Gandhi: Maker of Modern India? Edited by Martin Deming Lewis. Boston: D.C. Heath and Co., 1965. Here is the report which you must read in its entirety:

Mr. Gandhi`s views on the caste system--which constitutes the main social problem in India--were fully elaborated by him in 1921-22 in a Gujrati journal called Nava-Jivan. The article is written in Gujrati. I give below an English translation of his views as near as possible in his own words. Says Mr. Gandhi:


`` (1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

In 1922, Mr. Gandhi was a defender of the caste system. Pursuing the inquiry, one comes across a somewhat critical view of the caste system by Mr. Gandhi in the year 1925. This is what Mr. Gandhi said on 3rd February 1925:


I gave support to caste because it stands for restraint. But at present caste does not mean restraint, it means limitations. Restraint is glorious and helps to achieve freedom. But limitation is like chain. It binds. There is nothing commendable in castes as they exist to-day. They are contrary to the tenets of the Shastras. The number of castes is infinite and there is a bar against intermarriage. This is not a condition of elevation. It is a state of fall.
In reply to the question: What is the way out? Mr. Gandhi said:

The best remedy is that small castes should fuse themselves into one big caste. There should be four big castes so that we may reproduce the old system of four Varnas.
In short, in 1925 Mr. Gandhi became an upholder of the Varna system.

The old Varna system prevalent in ancient India had the society divided into four orders: (1) Brahmins,whose occupation was learning; (2) Kshatriyas, whose occupation was warfare; (3) Vaishyas, whose occupation was trade and (4) Shudras,whose occupation was service of the other classes. Is Mr. Gandhi`s Varna system the same as this old Varna system of the orthodox Hindus? Mr. Gandhi explained his Varna system in the following terms:


`` (1) I believe that the divisions into Varna is based on birth.
(2) There is nothing in the Varna system which stands in the way of the Shudra acquiring learning or studying military art of offense or defense. Contra it is open to a Kshatriya to serve. The Varna system is no bar to him. What the Varna system enjoins is that a Shudra will not make learning a way of earning a living. Nor will a Kshatriya adopt service as a way of learning a living. [Similarly a Brahmin may learn the art of war or trade. But he must not make them a way of earning his living. Contra a Vaishya may acquire learning or may cultivate the art of war. But he must not make them a way of learning his living.]

(3) The Varna system is connected with the way of earning a living. There is no harm if a person belonging to one Varna acquires the knowledge or science and art specialized in by persons belonging to other Varnas. But as far as the way of earning his living is concerned he must follow the occupation of the Varna to which he belongs which means he must follow the hereditary profession of his forefathers.

(4) The object of the Varna is to prevent competition and class struggle and class war. I believe in the Varna system because it fixes the duties and occupations of persons.

(5) Varna means the determination of a man`s occupation before he is born.

(6) In the Varna system no man has any liberty to choose his occupation. His occupation is determined for him by heredity.``

---

The social life of Gandhism is either caste or Varna.Though it may be difficult to say which, there can be no doubt that the social ideal of Gandhism is not democracy. For, whether one takes for comparison caste or Varnaboth are fundamentally opposed to democracy....

That Mr. Gandhi changed over from the caste system to the Varna system does not make the slightest difference to the charge that Gandhism is opposed to democracy. In the first place, the idea of Varna is the parent of the idea of caste. If the idea of caste is a pernicious idea it is entirely because of the viciousness of the idea of Varna. Both are evil ideas and it matters very little whether one believes in Varna or in caste.

---

*
Turning to the field of economic life, Mr. Gandhi stands for two ideals. One of these is the opposition to machinery... evidenced by his idolization of charkha (the spinning wheel) and by insistence upon hand-spinning and hand-weaving. His opposition to machinery and his love for charkha are not matter of accident. They are a matter of his philosophy of life....

The second ideal of Mr. Gandhi is the elimination of class war and even class struggle in the relationship between employers and employees and between landlords and tenants....Mr. Gandhi does not wish to hurt the propertied class. He is even opposed to a campaign against them. He has no passion for economic equality. Referring to the propertied class Mr. Gandhi said quite recently that he does not wish to destroy the hen that lays the golden egg. His solution for the economic conflict between the owners and the workers, between the rich and the poor, between the landlords and the tenants and between the employers and the employees is very simple. The owners need not deprive themselves of their property. All they need do is to declare themselves trustees for the poor. Of course, the trust is to be a voluntary one carrying only a spiritual obligation.

Is there anything new in the Gandhian analysis of economic ills? Are the economics of Gandhism sound? What hope does Gandhism hold out to the common man, to the down and out? Does it promise him a better life, a life of joy and culture, a life of freedom, not merely freedom from want but freedom to rise, to grow to the full stature which his capacities can reach?

There is nothing new in the Gandhian analysis of economic ills, insofar as it attributes them to machinery and the civilization that is built upon it. That machinery and modern civilization help to concentrate management and control into relatively few hands, and with the aid of banking and credit facilitate the transfer into still fewer hands of all materials and factories and mills in which millions are bled white in order to support huge industries thousands of miles away from their cottages, maimings and cripplings far in excess of the corresponding injuries by war, and are responsible for disease and physical deterioration due directly and indirectly to the development of large cities with their smoke, dirt, noise, foul air, lack of sunshine and outdoor life, slums, prostitution and unnatural living which they bring about, are all old and worn-out arguments. There is nothing new in them. Gandhism is merely repeating the views of Rousseau, Ruskin, Tolstoy and their school.

The ideas which go to make up Gandhism are just primitive. It is a return to nature, to animal life. The only merit is their simplicity. As there is always a large corps of simple people who are attracted by them, such simple ideas do not die, and there is always some simpleton to preach them. There is, however, no doubt that the practical instincts of men--which seldom go wrong--have found them unfruitful and which society in search of progress has thought it best to reject.

The economics of Gandhism are hopelessly fallacious. The fact that machinery and modern civilization have produced many evils may be admitted. But these evils are no argument against them. For the evils are not due to machinery and modern civilization. They are due to wrong social organization, which has made private property and pursuit of personal gain, matters of absolute sanctity. If machinery and civilization have not benefited everybody, the remedy is not to condemn machinery and civilization but to alter the organization of society so that the benefits will not be usurped by the few but will accrue to all.

In Gandhism, the common man has no hope. It treats man as an animal and no more. It is true that man shares the constitution and functions of animals, nutritive, reproductive, etc. But these are not distinctively human functions. The distinctively human function is reason, the purpose of which is to enable man to observe, meditate, cogitate, study and discover the beauties of the Universe and enrich his life and control the animal elements in his life. Man thus occupies the highest place in the scheme of animate existence. If this is true what is the conclusion that follows: The conclusion that follows is that while the ultimate goal of a brute`s life is reached once his physical appetites are satisfied, the ultimate goal of man`s existence is not reached unless and until he has fully cultivated his mind. In short, what divides the brute from man is culture. Culture is not possible for the brute, but it is essential for man. That being so, the aim of human society must be to enable every person to lead a life of culture, which means the cultivation of mind as distinguished from the satisfaction of mere physical wants. How can this happen?

Both for society as well as for individual[s] there is always a gulf between merely living and living worthily. In order that one may live worthily one must first live. The time and energy spent upon mere life, upon gaining of subsistence detracts from that available for activities of a distinctively human nature and which go to make up a life of culture. How then can a life of culture be made possible? It is not possible unless there is sufficient leisure. For, it is only when there is leisure that a person is free to devote himself to a life of culture. The problem of all problems, which human society has to face, is how to provide leisure to every individual. What does leisure mean? Leisure means the lessening of the toil and effort necessary for satisfying the physical wants of life. How can leisure be made possible? Leisure is quite impossible unless some means are found whereby the toil required for producing goods necessary to satisfy human needs is lessened. What can lessen such toil? Only when machine takes the place of man. There is no other means of producing leisure. Machinery and modern civilization are thus indispensable for emancipating man from leading the life of a brute, and for providing him with leisure and for making a life of culture possible. The man who condemns machinery and modern civilization simply does not understand their purpose and the ultimate aim which human society must strive to achieve.

Gandhism may well be well suited to a society which does not accept democracy as its ideal. A society which does not believe in democracy may be indifferent to machinery and the civilization based upon it. But a democratic society cannot. The former may well content itself with a life of leisure and culture for the few and a life of toil and drudgery for the many. But a democratic society must assure a life of leisure and culture to each one of its citizens. If the above analysis is correct then the slogan of a democratic society must be machinery, and more machinery, civilization and more civilization. Under Gandhism the common man must keep on toiling ceaselessly for a pittance and remain a brute. In short, Gandhism with its call of back to nature, means back to nakedness, back to squalor, back to poverty and back to ignorance for the vast mass of the people....

Gandhism insists upon class structure. It regards the class structure of society and also the income structure as sacrosanct with the consequent distinctions of rich and poor, high and low, owners and workers, as permanent parts of social organization. From the point of view of social consequences, nothing can be more pernicious.... It is not enough to say that Gandhism believes in a class structure. Gandhism stands for more than that. A class structure which is a faded, jejune, effete thing--a mere sentimentality, a mere skeleton is not what Gandhism wants. It wants class structure to function as a living faith. In this there is nothing to be surprised at. For, class structure in Gandhism is not a mere accident. It is its official doctrine.

The idea of trusteeship, which Gandhism proposes as a panacea and by which the moneyed classes will hold their properties in trust for the poor, is the most ridiculous part of it. All that one can say about it is that if anybody else had propounded it the author would have been laughed at as a silly fool, who had not known the hard realities of life and was deceiving the servile classes by telling them that a little dose of moral rearmament to the propertied classes--those who by their insatiable cupidity and indomitable arrogance have made and will always make this world a vale of tears for the toiling millions--will recondition them to such an extent that they will be able to withstand the temptation to misuse the tremendous powers which the class structure gives them over servile classes....

Mr. Gandhi sometimes speaks on social and economic subjects as though he was a blushing Red. Those who will study Gandhism will not be deceived by the occasional aberrations of Mr. Gandhi in favor of democracy and against capitalism. For, Gandhism is in no sense a revolutionary creed. It is conservatism in excelsis. So far as India is concerned, it is a reactionary creed blazoning on its banner the call of Return to Antiquity. Gandhism aims at the resuscitation and reanimating of India`s dread, dying past.

Gandhism is a paradox. It stands for freedom from foreign domination, which means the destruction of the existing political structure of the country. At the same time, it seeks to maintain intact a social structure which permits the domination of one class by another on a hereditary basis which means a perpetual domination of one class by another....

The first special feature of Gandhism is that its philosophy helps those who want to keep what they have and to prevent those who have not from getting what they have a right to get. No one who examines the Gandhian attitude to strikes, the Gandhian reverence for caste and the Gandhian doctrine of Trusteeship by the rich for the benefit of the poor can deny that this is an upshot of Gandhism. Whether this is the calculated result of a deliberate design or whether it is a matter of accident may be open to argument. But the fact remains that Gandhism is the philosophy of the well-to-do and the leisure class.

The second special feature of Gandhism is to delude people into accepting their misfortunes by presenting them as best of good fortunes. One or two illustrations will suffice to bring out the truth of this statement.

The Hindu sacred law penalized the Shudras (Hindus of the fourth class) from acquiring wealth. It is a law of enforced poverty unknown in any other part of the world. What does Gandhism do? It does not lift the ban. It blesses the Shudra for his moral courage to give up property. It is well worth quoting Mr. Gandhi`s own words. Here they are:


``The Shudra who only serves (the higher caste) as a matter of religious duty, and who will never own any property, who indeed has not even the ambition to own anything, is deserving of thousand obeisance...The very Gods will shower flowers on him.``
Another illustration in support is the attitude of Gandhism towards the scavenger. The sacred law of the Hindus lays down that a scavenger`s progeny shall live by scavenging. Under Hinduism scavenging was not a matter of choice, it was a matter of force. What does Gandhism do? It seeks to perpetuate this system by praising scavenging as the noblest service to society! Let me quote Mr. Gandhi: As a President of a Conference of the Untouchables, Mr. Gandhi said:


`` I do not want to attain Moksha. I do not want to be reborn. But if I have to be reborn, I should be born an untouchable, so that I may share their sorrows, sufferings and the affronts levelled at them, in order that I endeavor to free myself and them from that miserable condition. I, therefore prayed that if I should be born again, I should do so not as a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, or Shudra, but as an Atishudra.... I love scavenging. In my ashram, an eighteen-years-old Brahmin lad is doing the scavenger`s work in order to teach the ashram scavenger cleanliness. The lad is no reformer. He was born and bred in orthodoxy.... But he felt that his accomplishments were incomplete until he had become also a perfect sweeper, and that, if he wanted the ashram sweeper to do his work well, he must do it himself and set an example. You should realize that you are cleaning Hindu Society. ``
Can there be a worse example of false propaganda than this attempt of Gandhism to perpetuate evils which have been deliberately imposed by one class over another? If Gandhism preached the rule of poverty for all and not merely for the Shudra the worst that could be said about it is that it is mistaken idea. But why preach it as good for one class only?... In India a man is not a scavenger because of his work. He is a scavenger because of his birth irrespective of the question whether he does scavenging or not. If Gandhism preached that scavenging is a noble profession with the object of inducing those who refuse to engage in it, one could understand it. But why appeal to the scavenger`s pride and vanity in order to induce him and him only to keep on to scavenging by telling him that scavenging is a noble profession and that he need not be ashamed of it? To preach that poverty is good for the Shudra and for none else, to preach that scavenging is good for the Untouchables and for none else and to make them accept these onerous impositions as voluntary purposes of life, by appeal to their failings is an outrage and a cruel joke on the helpless classes which none but Mr. Gandhi can perpetrate with equanimity and impunity....

Criticism apart, this is the technique of Gandhism to make wrongs done appear to the very victim as though they were his privileges. If there is an ``ism`` which has made full use of religion as an opium to lull the people into false beliefs and false security, it is Gandhism. Following Shakespeare, one can well say: Plausibility! Ingenuity! Thy name is Gandhism.

Such is Gandhism. Having known what is Gandhism the answer to the question, ``Should Gandhism become the law of the land what would be the lot of the Untouchables under it?`` cannot require much scratching of the brain.... In India even the lowest man among the caste Hindus--why even the aboriginal and the Hill Tribe man--though educationally and economically not very much above the Untouchables. The Hindu society accepts him claim to superiority over the Untouchables. The Untouchable will therefore continue to suffer the worst fate as he does now namely, in prosperity he will be the last to be employed and in depression the first to be fired.

What does Gandhism do to relieve the Untouchables from this fate? Gandhism professes to abolish Untouchability. That is hailed as the greatest virtue of Gandhism. But what does this virtue amount to in actual life? To assess the value of this anti-Untouchability which is regarded as a very big element in Gandhism, it is necessary to understand fully the scope of Mr. Gandhi`s programme for the removal of Untouchability. Does it mean anything more than that the Hindus will not mind touching the Untouchables? Does it mean the removal of the ban on the right of the Untouchables to education? It would be better to take the two questions separately.

To start wit the first question. Mr. Gandhi does not say that a Hindu should not take a bath after touching the Untouchables. If Mr. Gandhi does not object to it as a purification of pollution then it is difficult to see how Untouchability can be said to vanish by touching the Untouchables. Untouchability centers round the idea of pollution by contact and purification by bath to remove the pollution. Does it mean social assimilation of the Untouchables with the Hindus? Mr. Gandhi has most categorically stated that removal of Untouchability does not mean interdining or intermarriage between the Hindus and the Untouchables. Mr. Gandhi`s anti-Untouchability means that the Untouchables will be classes as Shudras instead of being classed as Atishudras [i.e., ``beyond Shudras``]. There is nothing more in it. Mr. Gandhi has not considered whether the old Shudras will accept the new Shudras into their fold. If they don`t then the removal of Untouchability is a senseless proposition for it will still keep the Untouchables as a separate social category. Mr. Gandhi probably knows that the abolition of Untouchability will not bring about the assimilation of the Untouchables by the Shudras.That seems to be the reason why Mr. Gandhi himself has given a new and a different name to the Untouchables. The new name registers by anticipation what is likely to be the fact. By calling the Untouchables Harijans, Mr. Gandhi has killed two birds with one stone. He has shown that assimilation of the Untouchables by the Shudras is not possible. He has also by his new name counteracted assimilation and made it impossible.

Regarding the second question, it is true that Gandhism is prepared to remove the old ban placed by the Hindu Shastras on the right of the Untouchables to education and permit them to acquire knowledge and learning. Under Gandhism the Untouchables may study law, they may study medicine, they may study engineering or anything else they may fancy. So far so good. But will the Untouchables be free to make use of their knowledge and learning? Will they have the right to choose their profession? Can they adopt the career of lawyer, doctor or engineer? To these questions the answer which Gandhism gives is an emphatic ``no.`` The untouchables must follow their hereditary professions. That those occupations are unclean is no excuse. That before the occupation became hereditary it was the result of force and not volition does not matter. The argument of Gandhism is that what is once settled is settled forever even it was wrongly settled. Under Gandhism the Untouchables are to be eternal scavengers. There is no doubt that the Untouchables would much prefer the orthodox system of Untouchability. A compulsory state of ignorance imposed upon the Untouchables by the Hindu Shastras made scavenging bearable. But Gandhism which compels an educated Untouchable to do scavenging is nothing short of cruelty. The grace in Gandhism is a curse in its worst form. The virtue of the anti-Untouchability plant in Gandhism is quite illusory. There is no substance in it.

What else is there in Gandhism which the Untouchables can accept as opening a way for their ultimate salvation? Barring this illusory campaign against Untouchability, Gandhism is simply another form of Sanatanism which is the ancient name for militant orthodox Hinduism. What is there in Gandhism which is not to be found in orthodox Hinduism? There is caste in Hinduism, there is caste in Gandhism. Hinduism believes in the law of hereditary profession, so does Gandhism. Hinduism enjoins cow-worship. So does Gandhism. Hinduism upholds the law of karma, predestination of man`s condition in this world, so does Gandhism. Hinduism accepts the authority of the Shastras. So does Gandhism. Hinduism believes in idols. So does Gandhism. All that Gandhism has done is to find a philosophic justification for Hinduism and its dogmas. Hinduism is bald in the sense that it is just a set of rules which bear on their face the appearance of a crude and cruel system. Gandhism supplies the philosophy which smoothens its surface and gives it the appearance of decency and respectability and so alters it and embellishes it as to make it even more attractive....

What hope can Gandhism offer to the Untouchables? To the Untouchables, Hinduism is a veritable chamber of horrors. The sanctity and infallibility of the Vedas, Smritis and Shastras, the iron law of caste, the heartless law of karma and the senseless law of status by birth are to the Untouchables veritable instruments of torture which Hinduism has forged against the Untouchables. These very instruments which have mutilated, blasted and blighted the life of the Untouchables are to be found intact and untarnished in the bosom of Gandhism. How can the Untouchables say that Gandhism is a heaven and not a chamber of horrors as Hinduism has been? The only reaction and a very natural reaction of the Untouchables would be to run away from Gandhism.

Gandhists may say that what I have stated applies to the old type of Gandhism. There is a new Gandhism, Gandhism without caste. This has reference to the recent statement of Mr. Gandhi that caste is an anachronism. Reformers were naturally gladdened by this declaration of Mr. Gandhi. And who would not be glad to see that a man like Mr. Gandhi having such terrible influence over the Hindus, after having played the most mischievous part of a social reactionary, after having stood out as the protagonist of the caste system, after having beguiled and befooled the unthinking Hindus with arguments which made no distinction between what is fair and foul should have come out with this recantation? But is this really a matter for jubilation? Does it change the nature of Gandhism? Does it make Gandhism a new and a better ``ism`` than it was before? Those who are carried away by this recantation of Mr. Gandhi, forget two things. In the first place, all that Mr. Gandhi has said is that caste is an anachronism. He does not say it is an evil. He does not say it is anathema. Mr. Gandhi may be taken to be not in favor of caste. but Mr. Gandhi does not say that he is against the Varna system. And what is Mr. Gandhi`s Varna system? It is simply a new name for the caste system and retains all the worst features of the caste system.

The declaration of Mr. Gandhi cannot be taken to mean any fundamental change in Gandhism. It cannot make Gandhism acceptable to the Untouchables. The untouchables will still have ground to say: ``Good God! Is this man Gandhi our Savior?``

When talking about Mahatma Gandhi`s views on caste, we can consider three questions:

(1) Is the caste system sanctioned by Hinduism?
(2) Inheritance of occupations
(3) Untouchability: should there be restrictions on intermarriage or dining together?

As with many other questions, Mahatma Gandhi`s views on these also evolved with time. To avoid another very long article, I would just talk about (3). Mahatma Gandhi`s views seem to have evolved from the belief that untouchability is bad to the belief that inter-caste marriage was essential. Quotations are from ``HOW GANDHI CAME TO BELIEVE CASTE MUST BE DISMANTLED BY INTERMARRIAGE`` by Mark Lindley http://www.bfg-muenchen.de/caste.htm

1915: ``In his [Gandhi`s] ashram, interdining with ``untouchables`` was a corellary to their acceptance in 1915 as members. ``

1919: ``Interdining [and] intermarrying, I hold, are not essential for the promotion of the spirit of democracy.... But as time goes forward and new necessities and occasions arise, the custom regarding... interdining and intermarrying will require cautious modifications or rearrangements.``

1931: ``When Hindus were seized with inertia, abuse of varna [caste] resulted in... unnecessary and harmful restrictions as to intermarriage and interdining. .... People of different varnas may intermarry and interdine. ... But a Brahmin who marries a Shudra girl or vice versa commits no offence against the law of varna.``

1935: ``It must be left to the unfettered choice of the individual as to where he or she will marry or dine. ``

1936: ``If caste and varna are convertible terms and if varna is an integral part of the shastras which define Hinduism, I do not know how a person who rejects caste i.e. varna can call himself a Hindu. [Yet] if the shastras support caste as we know it today in all its hideousness, I may not call myself or remain a Hindu, since I have no scruples about interdining or intermarriage.``

In 1940 he publicly approved of a high-caste Hindu lad who married a Harijan [Dalit] girl after overcoming the reluctance of their parents: ``I congratulate Shri Radhamadhab on his courage in breaking through the rock of caste superstition. I hope his example will be copied by other young men. May the union prove happy. I would advise Shri Radhamadhab to arrange for proper education of his wife, who, I understand, has not received any scholastic training.``

1945: ``If the marriage is in the same community (caste) do not ask for my blessings, however deserving the girl may be. I send my blessings if she is from another community.``

1946: [Q.] ``Does the Congress program for the abolition of untouchability include interdining and intermarriage with Harijans [Dalits]?``
[A.] ``So far as I know the Congress mind today, there is no opposition to dining with Harijans. But speaking for myself, I have said that we have all to become Harijans today or we will not be able to purge ourselves completely of the taint of untouchability. I, therefore, tell all boys and girls who want to marry that they cannot be married at Sevagram Ashram unless one of the parties is a Harijan.``

1946: ``It is certainly desirable that [high] caste Hindu girls should select Harijan [Dalit] husbands. I hesitate to say that it is better. That would imply that women are inferior to men. I know that such [an] inferiority complex is there today. For this reason I would agree that at present the marriage of a caste girl to a Harijan is better than that of a Harijan girl to a caste Hindu. If I had my way I would persuade all caste Hindu girls coming under my influence to select Harijan husbands.``

Re: # 13
that`s a point to be elaborated. in fact, many have worked on that.

Re: # 27
u r right. but can u judge a man by his so-called followers. he need to be understood by what he stood for.

Trying the recall the names of some of the geniuses who appear on Chowk from time to time -

Subhash Gatade

Udaykumar

Revathy Gopal

and above all Arvind Gaur and sanguine (or was it Penguin?)

Do these people have any opinions, or are they just cowardly scum?

Aren`t these the very men and women who use Gandhi`s name to spread all kinds of ``wisdom`` in India?

Re: # 5
i though the same years back. but no more. let years go and u too will veer my way.

Re: # 4
how true are your words? it took me nearly 30 years to understand him. i always had the feeling that marxists were right.

Also this statement:

The question of racial purity

The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown. If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89

In this case there is no ``revocability`` ... no ``progress`` ...

Sadna,

Consider this statement from Gandhi:


`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


That is the most nonsensical argument I have come across... goes to show that you have totally lost your mind. Ofcourse Jinnah had himself resigned from the Muslim League two days before he made the said statement - saying that as the governor general he couldn`t head a communal organisation.

Your laughable claim is soundly defeated when one considers that he appointed a Hindu, scheduled caste at that, on a Muslim League seat in the interim government and made the same Hindu the first Law Minister of Pakistan... The pressure as Jinnah said came from within the party to keep it a communal organisation. So Jinnah quit the party as he didn`t think the governor general of a country could continue to head a community based party.

So Jinnah as the non-member telling a foreign correspondent that time is not right for the Muslim League to change into the Pakistan League but that it could happen in the future is ``racism``... only you Sadna... only you can come up with such specious arguments....
I already listed other such arguments... ``Sadna`s fraudulent tricks`` post...

Yes... saying that the public opinion was not ready for a completely national organisation... but it could happen in the future.... is of NO COMPARISON to Gandhi`s views:


Gandhi`s views

1) Black people are subhuman
2) White race should be superior
3) Black people are savages
4) Women should be closed up in their homes.
5) Women should not have the right to vote

Shame on you sadna... for being you.

Now what next? hindu cultural life is secular.

sunlight #173 has already been posted by me in sadna #69

Mantolives #161

Nice try but the issue was never Jinnah`s own membership of the Muslim League(Jinnah was not the one who needed representation in national affairs, the nonMuslims of Pakistan did).

The issue was the inclusion of nonMuslim members by Muslims in Muslim League or another Muslim-majority organization which would then seek to represent nonMuslims as well. Jinnah clearly says that the time had not come for that.

So not only that he didn`t want the Congress to have any Indian Muslim members, even in a Muslim-majority situation he did not think it was appropriate at that time to include Pakistani nonMuslims in the Muslim League. By advocating total political isolation of the beleagured minority from the majority in Pakistan at that time, Jinnah was certainly in effect, promoting racism.

And Jinnah did so as head of state affecting 10s of millions - there is absolutely no comparison with Gandhi`s efforts as a mere ordinary citizen in S. Africa.

I would love to hear the views of India`s liberals who have destroyed India`s soul, including Rajmohan Gandhi and that gaggle of Gandhi`s descendants who go around the world making absolute asses of themselves, and living off of Gandhi`s name.

It will be great payback to establish that Gandhi was corrupt, a racist, a misogynist, a Muslim-hater, and probably a killer too.

I am all for doing away with Gandhi`s legacy from India. It`s in the fitness of things that the effort is being spearheaded by our talented Pakistani friends. :)

Let Jinnah`s legacy live in Pakistan AND India.

Dear Sunlight...

Thanks for posting these pieces up. They are an important, albeit selective, part of the puzzle.

However Gandhi`s racism is too blatant (as shown in direct quotes from his CW) to be apologised for like this. Nor can his later statements white wash his out racial bigotry.

Please look at the some of the stuff he said... he believed in racial purity, dominance of the white people and that all black people were subhuman.

The only thing one can conclude is that at different times Gandhi was given to saying different things... which made him an unreliable operator.

A wealth of information on this topic is on the African National Congress website (the ANC is the ruling party of South Africa). http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/people/gandhi/

A particularly good essay is ``Gandhi and the Black People of South Africa`` by James D. Hunt. The summary :
``Gandhi began as a perfectly ordinary intelligent lawyer trying to establish a career. In time he transformed himself into something else. It is that transformation which should interest us.``

Some excerpts:
``Gandhi began as a very conventional Victorian Indian, seeking a