Gandhi in The Handmaid’s Tale

Re: # 1188 ana

So Ahura Mazda is the good guy.... How does he relate to the Fire god, supposed to be the big boss as far as parsi religion is concerned....

Re: # 1192 HP
//it is time for Indians to....accept that Gandhi was no ``Mahatma`` and he was a politician with all the trappings of a flawed human being....//

Done..... All Indians, hereby declare that Gandhi was a m0r0n, NOT a Mahatma..... Do you want this declaration duly signed on legal papers? We can do that too.... And then we will petition the entire world to stop calling him Mahatma Gandhi.... bring down his statues all over the world... burn all his books, speeches etc.....

We can do all that, if that`s what it takes to cool the perpetual burn in collective paki-a$$es ... will that be sufficient or do we need to call some heavy-duty fire-brigrade to hose down the ``mahatma burn`` that you pakis are nursing for last 70 odd years?.......

I mean - what`s wrong with you pakis? [well, never mind I asked the question]..... Right from the beginning Indians have been telling you - Gandhi was no Mahatma... he was a jack-a$$ in many ways.... In modern India - he is nobody`s hero .... he is a laughing stock, for all practical purposes....

Morevoer - even if indians disown Gandhi - the world will not .... he is darling of people around the world..... what are you pakis going to do about that? Apple will continue to raise huge-a$$ billboards with ``think different`` and all that.... what are you going to do about that?

You can`t fight gandhi - he si too big for you .... we indians would like to help but we can only do so much....

Aisha

Pakistanis, as a people, are not branded as violent/chaotic/unjust/bigoted/anti-feminist people. And when they are so accused, it is not because of Gandhi.

Consider Pakistan`s reputation abroad up until the 1960s. If anyone was going to link Pakistan`s external reputation to Gandhi, that was the time to do it. And Pakistan, as a nation, then, had a better reputation in world capitals, and with various think-tanks, than it does in 2005.

For all Gandhi loving wuss!

This article has been a great learning experience. The article was not about Gandhi’s politics. It was all about what his thoughts were about women in general and how much he was beholden to some really obnoxious thoughts. This was also apparent in his politics when he talked about khadi and taking the India back to medieval times. Ideologically, he probably was the most ridiculous person ever to lead a nation. If he were to take over India after the independence, Indian would still be spinning khadi in dhoti and all the people defending him now would have been making salt by the ocean and catching fish in the dirty waters of Ganges.

OTOH, politically he struck upon an idea for people to distinguish him from the rest of the suit wearing crowd in politics. By just being different, he caught the fancy of the people. Afterwards whatever he said became the gospel truth. The act of putting a dhoti on him made him the genius that he never was. Once he had the public attention, many people helped him with public image. Politically, Gandhi made several mistakes and they are all documented but most of his mistakes can be attributed to the simple fact that most of the Indian politicians at that time were not experienced and it was still the first generation of Indian politicians that struggled or was able to win freedom or was “Given” freedom.

People here have referred to MLK and other politicians who certainly had skeletons everywhere. Having skeletons hasn’t diminished their status as people are able to understand their political contribution to some cause.

The fact is that there were people out there who showed those skeletons and people accepted those skeletons as part of a leader’s life.

True to their hero-worship nature, Indians here are showing that Mediocre minds resist challenges to prevailing orthodoxies.

Most of the Pakistani’s like me were not aware of this side of Gandhi. I am glad that Ms. Sarwari took the time to inform us that what we have always been taught about Gandhi had huge holes. Holes so big that mere ranting of Indians on this site won’t fill.

So far, No Indian has denied or contradicted or shown us that what Ms. Sarwari has quoted is incorrect. In fact, it is time for Indians to come off the high horses and accept that Gandhi was no ``Mahatma`` and he was a politician with all the trappings of a flawed human being.

How mighty fall!

Thank you Ms. Sarwari and look forward to more of these eye opening articles.

Re: # 1189

They already have a room .... but looks like things are not working out too well these days ....

Dost Mittar, 1185,

Well said, but you are wasting your time on Manto and Aisha, eyes wide shut thats how you can describe them. Notice that Manto has nothing to say abt your post.

Ayesa your response, 1178, to ZahraJ post is pathetic.

#1179 by Mantolives on October 11, 2005 1:35am PT


Dear Aisha,


Enough already....get a room you too....

hi mohar:

Ahura Mazda is the abstract and transcendant god of Zoroastrianism. Ahura is the adversary of Angra Mainyu, the Zoroastrian representation of evil. Ahura has no image and cannot be represented in any form (See also: faravahar).

Ahura Mazda, derived from the Old Persian Aura-Mazda (``Aura`` - Lord, ``Mazda`` - Wisdom) symbolizes the supreme deity of Zoroastrian and Mazdean religions.

Ahura Mazda is referred to as Ormazd in modern Persian.

from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

Satyamwada,

I can see how Indians like you would resort to abuses having no argument.

You keep abusing Ayesha Jalal for telling the truth... but H M Seervai was NOT Pakistani my friend.. he was your very own and he used transfer of power papers as his sources as well as the writings of some of your finest ...

So there... please get a grip on yourself man.

-YLH

Re: # 1172 behram
//...By the Grace of Ahura Mazda...//

Who is Ahura mazda?

Dear Aisha:

Congratulations on breaking all records of Interacts with your article. For the sake of chowk, I hope you keep writing more provocative article.

Personally, I think that Gandhi`s aura would have shone a little less if he had not been assasinated. At independece, he was a defeated man who had lost his battle to save the country, whose lifelong mission of non-violence and hindu-muslim unity ended in one of the bloodiest communal chapters in history. He had already lost all political influence in his own party, which refused to disband as per his wishes. His daily prayer meetings were attended by just a few old ladies. Ironically, at the end of his life, he finally got the love of the people he craved all his life, India`s Muslims, but at that time he was probably at the nadir of his popularity among the Hindus who had bestowed upon him the title of the Mahatma and only his assasination restored his aura.

I think that the problem you -and Manto- face is that you are working under a flawed assumption, which is that Gandhi is popular in the world because no one knows about the skeletons in his closet. I do not think that this is true. People like him despite his shortcomings and, more so, because he never tried to use any closets to hide them. His life is an open book, always was, and he never tried to hide even the most embarassing details about himself.

Gandhi is not an exception in this regard. Let us look at the other great icons of the twentieth century. Churchill`s shortcomings were well known and he was, indeed, thrown out of office soon after he accomplished the war mission. John F. Kennedy`s skeletons were well hidden during his time, but even after they have come to light, he is still regarded as a great leader, despite the fact that he presided over the Bay of Pigs, his falling prey to Mafia plants and all that, and not passing a single significant bill in the Congress during his time. Martin Luther King`s skeletons had been constantly leaked by the FBI but this has not prevented him from being an icon for the Blacks. Even in Canada, Trudeau accomplished very little in terms of real achievements but he lives on as a most potent icon of this country.

What all these people had in common was charisma, the ability to articulate the feelings of their followers and make them believe in them and themselves. Gandhi had that in him. After a while in history, the man is forgotten but the image remains.

Aisha Sarwari`s note below (#1178) shows the dishonesty of YLH and his spouse:

Poor Mahatma is to be attacked for just some of his mere thoughts when
his whole life he acted and lived in the most forthright and open manner !!
The Mahatma himeself acknowledges his weaknesses.
On the other hand, the scumbag like Jinnah whose every action was filled
with hatred and violence.
It is said, a mere speck on a white shirt stands out, whereas a whole dirty shirt
is just what it is - a dirty shirt.

---

a) Gandhi was a leader of the Subcontinent, who if read accurately (re: Seervai, Jalal etc) bears some significant brunt of the partition. The fact is relatively unknown.
Gandhi bore no brunt. It is Jinnah and his religious goons who bear the brunth.
Nothwithstanding the lies of Ayesha Jalal. The results of Jinnah`s actions are there
for everyone to see.


b) Gandhi was a flawed man, and like all flawed men, he must deserve the dignity that all mortal men deserve, but, unfortunately he`s made out to be someone he is not. Hence dignity now calls for the man to be rediscovered holistically.
Mahatma himself acknowledges his weaknesses and frailties So little twerps like you
and ylh can do no more than bark.

Was he the champion of:
-Non Violence (given his dictates to kill out of wedlock babies, to beat wives and to sexually abuse minors)
Huh !! The mahatma acknowledges his weakness when he was young. To say he
give dictates to kill out of wedlock babies is your spin (shows how you are the liar).


-Political non-Violence, (He introduced religion into South Asian politics, spitting the movement and snatching it from leaders of Jinnah, Ghokle and Tilak`s standards)
Ha...so you are angry that Gandhi ``snatched`` leadership from Jinnah eh ?
About introducing religion - You want to know what the mullahs were saying ?
Who gave the call to Pakistan ? who wanted to invite the Amirs of Afghanistan to
invade India and make it dar-ul-islam ? Who wanted veto powers based on religion ?
You are just a liar, blaming Gandhi for introducing religion.


-Peace and Justice (His concept of peace was selective, and he wanted justice only for his own people, not for all underdogs)
Yeah. this line is so worthless and false that one can only laugh.

-Equality (He was racist against blacks, and fought against apartheid because he didn`t want himself or other Indians to mingle with the lowly blacks, as a born African I detest this)
Oh yes...he should also have fought against arms smuggling, he should fought against
female infanticide, he should also have fought against polygamy, he did not fight
against smoking, he did not fight against child-marriages, he did not fight against
illiteracy !!
The Mahatma was comparitively young when he started off in South Africa. So he
did not do so many other things.
What did Jinnah do ? - you bozo.

-He was an emancipator of women (He couldn`t even stand women walking with him)
huh ? you fool - Did you see the many writings that were posted on this list ?


c) Gandhi popularly stood for one thing, Truth, and that is the exact thing missing from his image of the world. It’s a reading of selective history that causes these parts of him to remain hidden.
What is obvious - is your ( really Ayesha Jalal`s) selective writing. She will hopefully
be exposed for what she is, a manipulative person.

d) The danger here is that we, Pakistanis as a people, because we once had a conflict of interest with the man, are branded as a) The Violent b) The Politically Violent c) The chaotic and unjust d) The Bigoted e) The Anti-feminist
...once had a conflict ?
Are you blind or just plain stupid. Pakistan ka matlab kya ?
Your whole country is geared up for terrorism, people trained in your country are
killing people around the world, the laws of your country are all prejudiced,
your whole social and govt systems are soaked in bigotry and you are blaming
the Mahatma ?

You, ylh and Ayesha Jalal are all beneath contempt. The problem may indeed
be that the educated folks in Pakiland are all like you. Your hatred and anger for
Hindus has deluded you and you can only think in terms of being ``not-Indian``
and so you pay the price - that is your karma.

Correction #1182
Replace ``frequently`` by ``frequently to virtually every other individual``.

And this one is for Ana, whom I consider a very special interactor!

Ana, I must admit that “other” activities have kept me from keeping track of individual i-logs. However, I must point out to you that you should not let verbal lashings from individual no-name interactors (especially those who do it frequently) get you down – most of such stuff is harmless and it is usually done in the heat of the moment and without any malice intended whatsoever (some individuals can be more fiercely vocal than others) – and its intensity is usually proportionately higher to the amount of expectations one may have from others! I wish you a cheerful frame of mind and the resilience to continue to demonstrate the high quality class in dealing with issues – both inside chowk and outside of this little world – that you have displayed in your own responses. Therefore, cheer up!

Thanks.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Re#1179 Manto
Cheer up, will you! (Also, what is a “treasury bench” and can I get some?)

Re#1178
Dear Aisha (and Manto),
In fairness, the two of you must be commended (not for this article or most of your interacts here, unfortunately) but for your courage under fire. You have taken some rough ammunition – and continue to tick. That’s a good quality and someday it might indeed come handy to you in helping get to that vision of “Modern Democratic Liberal Progressive Pakistan, where everyone has equal rights regardless of religion, caste, creed, gender”. That goal is highly commendable, especially considering that most countries of the world (including of the “first” world) are still trying to get there. I sincerely wish you luck toward that objective. In my opinion, its chances would improve if you focus on the REAL problems of today, not made-up ones after scanty research, as you yourself indicated in #1178 – part (A). Also, this interactor is a strong believer in artistic (including literary) freedoms of all kinds – not a shred of doubt about that – however, a subject as vast as Gandhi – done on the basis of a mere one-hour of research – is unlikely to build the necessary level of nation-wide credibility, or even to boost your readers’ confidence in you – therefore, it’s NOT a good idea to “cook up” an article with the proficiency level in cooking that you have elsewhere admitted having! Also, “blind” prejudice is just as bad as “blind” love – with the important difference that indeed the former can be addressed to some extent! If Mr. Manto did not beforehand review it and suggest improvements along those lines – he has been remiss in his duty toward whom he lists as his number one favorite author on his interactor page – please consider firing him (from the job of a reviewer, I hasten to add – not from his legally-bonded status)! Thanks.

Chowk Staff:

Kindly note that in #1176, the term “chowk-stuff” is to be treated as an article – not as an act! Also, can you do something about the links on the right – they do not seem to work! Has someone been messing with them (not YOU, by any chance?)

Notes for “navigation-challenged” interactors on THIS board:

(1) If you have a high-speed connection, this link will let you see all the comments on a single page – to make life a LITTLE easier (navigation wise).

(2) If you have a low-speed connection – follow the following sub-steps

(a) curse loudly (suggested words: “I have been chowk-stuffed!”),
(b) smack head (use your own – and be gentle, or it might get damaged (if it already is not (which is unlikely since you DID visit this web site, after all (on second thoughts, cancel this sub-step)))), and
(c) get a high-speed connection, then return to step 1.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Dear Chowkstaff,

I wish to register protest at how some of chowk`s finest have resorted to abuse and insults aimed at Aisha, Behram, Godot and Hamidm for disagreeing with the Indian point of view.
It is a matter of great concern that the citizens of the world`s greatest democracy act like quite the fascists when things are not to their liking.

It must be remembered that the whole chowk ideology is pre-disposed to pro-Indian stance since within the collective imagination of chowk staff and chowk cosmos, the Pakistani narrative is at best a well meaning but misguided separatist strand and at worst an outright unreasonable communal narrative. Therefore the Pakistanis here are already forced to argue from a position of weakness which has more to do with the implied ideological bias on the website than the reasonableness of Indian claims.

Therefore, any abuse on part of the ``Treasury benches`` of chowk should be taken note of and made example of by the Chowkstaff, which acts after all in the same capacity as a speaker would in a democratic parliamentary body.

Sincerely

YLH