Gandhi in The Handmaid’s Tale

Re: # 1142

Kaalbhai:

there is no point discussing/deabting with pakis. they are either of urstrulu type of manto/behram type.
for me it was a great eye opener. i thought that gandhi if not reverant wouldn`t be a despicable, foulmouthed, dhoti-wearing ugly-faced for an upforward moving paki middle class.
what i came across here was a horror story.
just to prove that jinnah was better than gandhi, manto and family started throwing abuses at him, calling it the other side of mahatma. behram too joined in with sole aim to tarnish gandhi do that jinnah will get the right place in history, which he has been denied so far.

you must have noticed that behram has not responded to even one of the articles i have posted. it seems he has no views on them, still he will call gandhi anti-woman, anti-jew and ``in-authentic``. I went on to say that satyagraha has limitaions and hence gandhi had no integrity?

can you imagine how much hatred has blinded them? he his doing all this to raise jinnah, may be to accord him a very high place in pak/world history. but i still don`t understand how by calling gandhi anti-woman etc. without any basis in can raise jinnahs stature.

i am more close to right wing politics than with congress, but took part in these discussions to examine gandhi. but people had came here with baggage to look at things from there perspective. unknowingly i have read a lot about gandhi and have a far better understanding of him as a person. but still won`t vote for congress :)

anyway i think we are just going in circles and the animosity we have between us will make it very difficult to come close as was shown when mushy rejected indian aid.

i will see you around. just leave manto and behram to their fate.

Dear Behram1

I have nothing more to add, except one thing.

You are letting your emotions do your thinking for you. You hate no one but you see hatred written on the face of every Indian. There is a problem there :)

You want to go after Gandhi`s reputation because you have a particular dislike (not hate, since you hate none :)) for ``Gandhi lovers.``

Behram1 ji, educate yourself on India (if you care to understand them). ``Gandhi lovers`` are the ONLY ones in India who have had any use for Jinnah. Only ones who have made a conscious effort to keep Jinnah`s humanity intact in India. Just like Gandhi was the only major leader in India who maintained any sympathy for Pakistan for 1947.

And now, you want to go after his very name because he ``did not care for women`` (as much apparently as most leaders of the Muslim League did). There are many people in India who are not your friends who would have happily paid you to destroy Gandhi`s reputation.

But if this is what will bring you emotional satisfaction, or do your great country some good, don`t let anyone stop you. :)

Dear Behram...difference is , General Sam was an Indian parsi. You remain an effete neutred parsi from pakiland.

And in Kashmir , we only kill Islamic terrorists.No regrets.

Re: # 1137

Dear Edge,

[Indian Army easily broke Jinnah`s dreamland into 2 equal parts , taking as POWs 100,000 Pakistani soldiers.] under the able leadership of Field Marshall Sam Maneckshaw, a Parsi. Was he neutered?

Time to grow up, is it not? Stop the killings of innocent Kashmiris.

Just the same,

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 1142

Dear kaalchakra:

Thank you for your kind words. There is already so much hate around this world.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Dear Behram1

And all this while I thought you were determined to destroy Gandhi`s reputation because you felt hurt when Indians didn`t respect Mr. Jinnah. I guess I misread you!

:)

Jinnah with his lover ..(do notice the coy post-coital grin on the lover`s face)..

Behram....so you are a neutred effete parsi from Pakistan in love with the qaid and the effed up country. No big deal.

Re: # 1131

Dear kaalchakra:

Thank you for such a long worded post. Please rest assured, as I have stated in my previous posts, I have never found any Pakistani who starts a discussion about India`s partition. It has always been the Indians.

Whether it is Pakistani securalists or not is a question not for outsiders to contemplate. I admit, Pakistan, has a lot of problems internally. But we certainly do not need some Indian agent in the US educating us. I am well aware of the donations being asked around the US in Indian temple for the betterment of political parties in India. May be I am not a good writer, but I am well read.

You are absolutely right that people`s mind cannot be changed easily, and no body is suggesting that. All we were arguing about is that Gandhi had problems with women. And now suddenly I have talk about my overall political philosophy regarding India/Pakistan. I am old enough to understand when to keep quiet.

Some Gandhi lovers are trying to be benevolent in guidance, when none is needed. When I see an Indian, I see hatred written all over his face. He is dumbfounded that there are Parsis in Pakistan. And then, a Pakistan loving Parsi.

It appears by your writing skills that you are in the academic world. If correct, you are too theoretical.

[But I am fearful of the ultimate effectiveness of this new anti-Gandhism] There is no new wave of anti-Gandhism. You might consider a new wave of pro-nationalism, but never a new of anti-Gandhism. Frankly, Gandhi or for that matter most Indians, have always been very insignificant in my life.

Thank you for [I fully and enthusiastically share and for what it`s worth, endorse, the goal of Pakistani secularists (in fact, or in name, is immaterial)]. Then, should we expect a behavior modifications in your subsequent postings?

[More than most Indians, I realize that Jinnah deserves a fairer deal in terms of his reputation in India and abroad.] Jinnah, has always been a shining star abroad. He is the only freedom fighter who never went to jail. That speaks volumes on his political suaveness. Not to mention his professional attire, mannerism, and no nonsense behavior.

Your concern [this new anti-Gandhism] is elusive. There is no new anything regarding Gandhi, or Indian leaders. The only newness is for Advani to speak highly of Jinnah.

You are correct in asserting [Love and respect are very difficult sentiments to generate among us. Hatred and contempt come to us most naturally, almost uninvited.] As for me, I hate nobody. I will however reserve the right to defend my integrity.

Words are not needed, please continue showing by action [No one has to agree, but I will try to explain the best I can].

---

[This honor we must endow on everyone, even our dearest elders.] Your argument is similar to Anil`s in one of his earlier post, which I rejected. Older generation must be and will be held responsible for everything. And that is a fact.

[But there is a huge danger in moving beyond the defense of one`s own icon, into the territory of destroying someone else`s.] [Every child may think that his or her parents are fools, but few will sit by listening to other people launch similar ad-hominem attacks on their parents. Particularly, if their own overall evaluation has been positive. Foolishness and smarts are not the only dimensions on which we evaluate our elders.]

Practice what you preach. When you live in a glass house don`t throw stones at other house. Gandhi lovers have no idea of what is happening in the international political arena, and are just realizing the outcome of their hate filled agenda.

[Gandhi was not a Mahatma is a prescription for much trouble.] for whom?

Is it some sort of a hidden threat to knowledge, to truthfulness?

[It will re-create the unfortunate, unwise, and probably unreal binaries that many Indians and Pakistanis have been working to erase. The response of Indians on this board, I respectully submit, offers a telling insight. Even young Gujju (I was very pleasantly surprised) put aside his pure capitalism to make his stand clear.]

---

[Hopefully, you will see why Gandhi`s and Prophet Muhammad`s case is not identical.] I have always known that. You are repeating my vocabulary to me. Wah reh wah. Ulti ganga behe rahi hai kiya..... It is your Indian Gandhi lovers who must understand that.

I am trying to understand as I go along with your post

[To re-iterate my major concerns, a lot of work has been recently done (on Chowk and elsewhere) toward developing better Indo-Pak mutual understanding.] Agreed.

[That enterprize has required a lot of people to grow in many directions.] Okay.

[More than anything else, it has required us to grow spiritually. People have had to open their hearts to the desirability of going the extra mile to see things from OTHERS` point of view. So they could put themselves in the shoes of OTHER people. So they could convince themselves (never an easy job) that one can give others the same benefit of doubt that we so give to ourselves and to our own.] okay.

[That spiritual growth, along with the new understanding it has wrought, has been a collective victory for everyone.]

[I fear that in our new carelessness, all that mutual work, common achievements, will go down the drain. I am apprehensive about old pettinesses, and closed-heartedness coming back.] Then, please don`t be a part of this carelessness.

[It took a lot of genuine effort to recognize that Mr. Jinnah may not be entirely or solely at fault.] Great.

[It will take very little spiritual work to conclude that after all all those old prejudices against him were right on target, that he was indeed the evil incarnate many people have argued he was.] So?

[The reputation Mr. Jinnah enjoys in India is unfair] and that is what I have been arguing.

[but Indian bigotry or failure to understand history is not the only reason]. Then, why do you contribute to it?

[In fact, I humbly submit, those are not by any means the main reasons.] Well, Gandhi is the subject of this post and not Jinnah. Nevertheless, keep up your theoretical post.

[To get a perspective on the difficulties involved, consider the views Pakistanis themselves hold of him.] What has this got to do with Gandhi not liking women?

[I suspect that Jinnah is viewed no more fairly and accurately in Pakistan - the country he himself created - than in India - a country that has fewer reasons to think highly or accurately of him.] And that is all the more reason to see what Yasser`s effort has been all along.

[Jinnah was a great man.] Yes, agreed. Thank you.

[But that greatness can be established on a firm footing only by generating a particular mindset, first and foremost, within Pakistani itself]. Yes, agreed. We need to clear the outside rubbish first and then work inside or work form inside to outside. Pakistanis are quite capable of doing that. Thank you very much.

[It cannot be established by using a legalistic play of arguments to question Gandhi`s (or anyone else`s) greatness]. Then, please practice what you preach on the greatness of your own icon. And don`t bring Jinnah, as soon as any topic on Indian intellectual decay shows up.

[As always, Pakistani secularists have my best wishes.] Thank you. Then, please help us in this journey. Would you?

Thank you for pontificating eloquently on the issue of relationship between Gandhi and Jinnah, etc. But we still have the main subject article at hand.

Can you help us get back to the article? Or am I going to be subjected yet with another academic talk?

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

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Sincerely,
Chowk Staff

Poor Neutred Effete Paki Parsi : ``Your troops are only apt in killing unarmed Kashmiris, and that is a fact.``

Yeah...right. Are you by chance a believer in the theory that was prevalent in Pakistan that `1 Pakistani soldier = 10 hindooo bania soldiers` ?

Remember 1971 ? Just to refresh your memory >


(Pakistan Army Officers lay down their side-arms as a formal act of surrender to the Indian Army in East Pakistan. )

Indian Army easily broke Jinnah`s dreamland into 2 equal parts , taking as POWs 100,000 Pakistani soldiers.

Pakistan Army is a bunch of chakkas - like you and your friend the Cuckolded Fool , Hamdani.

Here is a gandhi-lover helping out pakis in their time of need.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/10/international/asia/10cnd-quake.html?hp

And then - we have pakis who are bad-mouthing the same gandhi-lovers....

so sad!!!

Re: # 1132

``So, somehow you feel alright to degrade our sacred Atash Behram? ``

how many more lies, behram. where have i degraded your sacred fire?

``Jadav rana promised that we will be like sugar and that we will mix with the society at large. He never promised to give away Zarathushtra`s cherished ``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds`` principle. He never gave away the main principle of fighting evil away from life.``

mor am i claiming that. do you have reading comprehension problems?

``Hatred of one community is what I am questioning, and that is what Gandhi lovers are always promoting. ``

behram, i don`t know whats going on in your mind. calling gandhi woman-hater, in-authentic, with no integrity is questioning hatred w for a community? who is promoting hatred towards a community, we are asking for the facts about gandhi being a male chauvinist, racist, castiest.

``If my comments, hurts you,``
i am just frustated with your imbecile responses.

``but you have to see that Jinnah never wanted this type of Pakistan and that is what Yasser has been fighting all along.``

good for you and him but that doesn`t mean you call gandhi a despicabl foulmouthed person and question his integrity without any facts. does calling gandhi names makes pakistan a better place for minorities. you are yourself blinded by hatred for gandhi even claiming that he is not relevant today without knowing that secular india is a legacy of gandhi not jinnah. i have posted seceral articels about gandhis view on dalits, women, jew have you read any of them.
do you think by calling gandhi names, minorities will be safe in pak?

``but I would never scoop to such levels of intellectual bankruptcy that you are in at the moment. ``

whatever behram. you go ahead call gandhi whatever you want that will definitely leave you safe in pakistan.

Re: # 1133

Dear Edge:

Finally, I am getting around responding to your snipes. Please don`t allow this to depress you, since I know that most Gandhi lovers have self-esteem problems. One has even developed Atish-e-Gaand. I recommended a Persian sugar cane or maybe bawajis.

So, let us see what your thought provoking or conversation advancing argument is
[Behram...respectfully...that is the land where you wear bangles and dance , extolling the virtues of the place and its Qaed.....] Oh, really I would not have recognized that, last time around when the thunderous Advani brought a million troops on its borders. Your troops are only apt in killing unarmed Kashmiris, and that is a fact.

But, pure common sense is surely a hard commodity available to Gandhi lovers these days.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram...respectfully...that is the land where you wear bangles and dance , extolling the virtues of the place and its Qaed.....

Re: # 1126

Dear Netizen:

You write [this holiest of the holy fire would have extinguished long time back if it were not for the land of gandhi who gave refuge to your people and allowed them to practise their religion and traditions.] Agreed. So, somehow you feel alright to degrade our sacred Atash Behram?

And respectfully this is also Jinnah`s land, and my land, and manto`s land, and Aisha Sarwari`s land.

And, yet, we never talk bad about the hindoo religion. Gandhi lovers did, and do.

[now you acknowledge the deed of jadav rana by calling gandhi despicable, foul-mouthed?] Jadav rana promised that we will be like sugar and that we will mix with the society at large. He never promised to give away Zarathushtra`s cherished ``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds`` principle. He never gave away the main principle of fighting evil away from life.

Hatred of one community is what I am questioning, and that is what Gandhi lovers are always promoting.

If my comments, hurts you, I would apologize only on one condition for you and all those gandhi lovers to see how it hurts all of us.

Yes, I realize that [remember, your forefathers ran away from getting killed in a islamic country to preserve the holy fire], but you have to see that Jinnah never wanted this type of Pakistan [and now you are singing peans about a person who founded a islamic nation?], and that is what Yasser has been fighting all along. Do you not see that?

I might be [you are disgrace to your community.] but I would never scoop to such levels of intellectual bankruptcy that you are in at the moment.

Continuing to be respectful

Behram B. Atashband