Gandhi in The Handmaid’s Tale

Hello folks. I have had certain admiration for Gandhi. Reading about him being a wife-beater, is quite curious to me. In reading through some of the interacts, I discover a lot of opinions, but I have no concrete facts of him ``beating,`` whatever that means, his wife. Are there any of you who are able to send me such information, so that I, if I chose, may comment regarding the same.

Of course, I am sure that most of you know that in evaluating a person`s actions, character, etc., one must oppose imposing our own, private, or current values on a segment of culture, in a different generation and or a different culture. It is OK to give an opinion, as long as one qualifies the opinion by stating that it is such, and as such, it may not suit endeavouring to evaluate another by it without clearly articulating the gap between the A of one culture/time period and the B of another culture/time period. If such is not done, I believe that the analysis often ends up in nebulism - something that we as educated persons, need not to be entangled in - such can only leave a query wanting.

I would appreciate your assistance if you are able to afford it to me.

Thank you,

Darrell Hall, April 25, 2007.

REVIEWS: Gandhi’s still alive in Gujarat




Reviewed by Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

In Gandhi’s hometown, Gujarat, three years after the religious violence, the Muslim community is still squandering for justice and freedom from fear of Hindu retaliation. The pogrom that left 110,000 Muslims homeless and killed over 2,000, according to the Human Rights Watch still have their violators roaming free. Recently the BBC reported that mass graves were dug out to hide evidence of the depravity. Women and children, physiologists say, are unable to get over the trauma and violence they witnessed.

Despite this, Dalits and other untouchables in Gujarat are “far worse than the Muslims.”

About eight decades ago, it was this alliance of common interest between the Muslims and the untouchables that frightened Gandhi, fictitiously known as the Mahatma, into a series of political manoeuvres to protect not only his adherence to orthodox Hinduism, but also the Congress party’s capitalist interests. If Kamran Shahid, author of Gandhi and the Partition of India: A New Perspective, is to be believed, the alliance of the lower caste Hindus and Muslims (who were themselves converts from lower-caste Hindus, escaping the drudgery and humiliation of class), formed a majority of Indian vote bank.

The British planned to leave the colonies and intended to implant the traditions of democracy and fraternity in Indian politics before they did. Recklessly abandoning his spiritual face to the world, Gandhi articulated his worst fears in reaction to safeguards granted to Muslims and untouchables granted by the British Communal Award of 1931, “the Untouchable hooligans would make alliance with the Muslim hooligans and kill upper-caste Hindus.”

As a failed lawyer in South Africa, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi had fought tooth and nail against perceived discrimination against Indians, but not as popularly believed in the interest of equality. It was for the more privileged treatment of Indians in South Africa as compared to black Africans. He fought to separate and segregate the Indians from the subhuman “savage kafirs” who were not “equal to the Indians”. It is because of this fact, outlined in his volumes of Collected Works and his own personal diaries that prompted countless South Africans to protest his statue in Johannesburg in 2002.

When he returned to India, he did so to restore the traditionalism and social conservatism of status quo. He rejected British plans to distribute power evenly amongst all parties and interests, because it would severely undermine the Congress and its leading upper-caste Hindu interests. He formulated a plan to ensure no power sharing deal with the Muslims and he broke the threat of a lower-caste Hindu and Muslim alliance by reinventing a religiously inspired revolution against the British. He claimed to blur the lines of caste by verbally restoring dignity to the lower caste Hindus or Harijans as he called them, and calling them to unite with all Indians to fight for their independence through satyagraha, however, he never forgot to spell out that their place belonged as servants to the upper caste Brahmins.

On numerous occasions he articulated that the peasant must serve his master at all costs, even if he “suffers in his person” and this usually meant exploitative labour rates. He prohibited inter-dining and intermarriage across castes.

Much to the distaste of the long-term champion of lower-caste Hindu rights, Dr Ambedkar, who is also the principal author of the Indian constitution, Gandhi continued to manipulate the lower caste into overriding any realpolitik plans to broker rights for themselves in the new independent India. Gandhi, instead, marched them to salt fields, made facades of ashrams for them, made their women spin yarn to champion self-rule, coerced the British into imprisoning him and gained mass sympathies in the process.

Winston Churchill refused to give into Gandhi’s hunger strikes, and would rather that Gandhi starve to death but his associates feared that because he has asserted himself as India’s spiritual leader, his death would turn him into a martyr. True to Dr Ambedkar’s prediction, Gandhi’s much flaunted spiritual emancipation of the lower-caste Hindus did not secure them a better future and, even today, they stand as the most marginalized lot of India, a notch below the Muslims.

Having shattered any possibility of a collective vote bank of Muslims and lower-caste Hindus, Gandhi shifted his focus to manufacturing an illusion of poverty. He successfully bought the Congress party a golden choice to back away from any power-sharing deal with the Muslims rejecting the prescience of the Lucknow Pact which secular politicians like Jinnah and Gokhale worked hard to secure the co-existence of Hindu and Muslim communities.

When Gandhi split the movement by his cleverly crafted plan of rallying a majority into religious fervour for independence, politicians like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, at first sidelined and shunned, realized that the only way they will not find themselves in the same trap shared by lower-caste Hindus is by demanding a separate state. Used as a bargaining chip, historians such as Ayesha Jalal say that Jinnah till the end tried to give Indian Muslims the best constitutional protection they could get, but at the end, for Gandhi, it had to be all or nothing.

Under no circumstances was the Congress party negotiating, nor did they see any need to, because the British were hastily retreating and the Congress was turning out to be the one with the bigger pie and the more visible forces.

Seeing that the blame would fall on him for being unable to keep the country united, Gandhi made alliances with Islamic religious leadership, distracting Indian Muslims from interest based politics into religious euphoria. This only widened the rift between the Hindus and Muslims. Ironically, his own orientation remained completely Hindu centric — “I am a Hindu and therefore a true Indian”, he declared.

Jinnah was willing to go as far as accepting the Cabinet Mission plan in 1946, favouring united India rather than Partition. Pakistan came to be because Gandhi and the Congress party found it unpalatable for Muslims to have full autonomy in the majority provinces.

The “new perspective” that Kamran Shahid has articulated in his book is not new, it is one that the Muslim League articulated and that H.M. Seervai, Asiananda and Patrick French wrote in their books. In fact, recently two fascinating books dealing with contradictions of the “great soul” who once was held by Einstein as the greatest man to walk the earth were published. These are Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity (2001) and the Ungandhian Gandhi (2004).

Certainly established as fact, this perspective the academic circles have now accepted, but where it is new, however, is in the psyche of non-serious activists and upstarts who would rather believe in the myth of Gandhi than read what he wrote and did. Will this myth persevere with time or will a more honest understanding of Gandhi emerge that will give a balanced perspective on the man held by millions as the very icon of non-violence and pluralism that Gandhi’s own actions negated?

---

Gandhi and the Partition of India: A New Perspective
By Kamran Shahid
Ferozsons, 60
Shahrah-i-Quaid-i-Azam, Lahore.
Tel: (042) 630 1196-8
UAN 111-62-62-62
ISBN 969-0-02011-0
124pp. Rs250

Re: # 1192

Thanks HP. Hope my previous post is also an eye opener.

Regards,

Aisha Sarwari

M.Gandhi on caste and related matters:

If the Shudras (low castes) leave their ancestral profession and take up
others, ambition will rouse in them and their peace of mind will be
spoiled. Even their family peace will be disturbed. (Hind Swaraj).

I don`t believe the caste system to be an odious and vicious dogma. It has
its limitations and defects, but there is nothing sinful about it.
(Harijan, 1933).

I believe in Varnashrama (caste system) which is the law of life. The law
of Varna (color and / or caste) is nothing but the law of conservation of
energy. Why should my son not be scavenger if I am one? (Harijan,
3-6-1947).

He (Shudra, low caste) may not be called a Brahmin (uppermost caste),
though he (Shudra) may have all the qualities of a Brahmin in this birth.
And it is a good thing for him (Shudra) not to arrogate a Varna (caste) to
which he is not born. It is a sign of true humility. (Young India,
11-24-1927).

According to Hindu belief, he who practices a profession which does not
belong to him by birth, does violence to himself and becomes a degraded
being by not living up to the Varna (caste) of his birth. (Young India,
11-14-1927).

As years go by, the conviction is daily growing upon me that Varna (caste)
is the law of man`s being, and therefore, caste is necessary for
Christians and Muslims as it has been necessary for Hinduism, and has been
its saving grace. (Speech at Trivandrum, (Collection of Speeches),
Ramanath Suman (1932)).

I would resist with my life the separation of ``Untouchables`` from the
caste Hindus. The problem of the ``Untouchable`` community is of
comparatively little importance. (London Round Table Conference 1931.)

I call myself a Snatana man, one who firmly believes in the caste system.
(Dharma Manthan, p 4).

I believe in caste division determined by birth and the very root of caste
division lies in birth. (Varna Vyavastha, p 76-77).

The four castes and the four stages of life are things to be attained by
birth alone. (Dharma Manthan, p 5).

Caste means the predetermination of a man`s profession. Caste implies that
a man must practice only the profession of his ancestors for his
livelihood. (Varna Vyavstha, p 28, 56, 68).

Shudra only serves the higher castes as a matter of religious duty and who
will never own any property. The gods will shower down flowers on him.
(Varna Vyavastha, p 15).

I have noticed that the very basis of our thought have been severely
shaken by Western civilization which is the creation of the Satan. (Dharma
Manthan, p 65).

How is it possible that the Antyaja (outcastes) should have the right to
enter all the existing temples? As long as the law of caste and karma has
the chief place in the Hindu religion, to say that every Hindu can enter
every temple is a thing that is not possible today. (Gandhi Sikshan, Vol.
11, p 132).

There are I am sorry to say, many Hindu temples in our midst in this
country, which are no better than brothels. The caste system can`t be
said to be bad because it does not allow inter-dining and inter-marriages
in different castes. (Gandhi by Shiru, p129).


The caste system, in my opinion, has a scientific basis. Reason does not
revolt against it. It has disadvantages. Caste creates a social and moral
restraint - I can find no reason for their abolition. To abolish caste is
to demolish Hinduism. There is nothing to fight against the Varnasharma
(caste system). I don`t believe the caste system to be an odious and
vicious dogma. It has its limitations and defects, but there is nothing
sinful about it. (Harijan, 1933).

Coffee Break: Jailhouse Rocks….

It feels great to be free!

Let me just say that one more time – “It feels GREAT to be free!!!” – and little else!

So I will (at least for now) withhold any strong comments on the cavalier attitude displayed by these self-appointed keepers of the copyright laws – these henchmen and these goons masquerading as “technical” individuals (yes, all of them – with the exception of the innocent chowk “volunteers” – those being among the humblest of the humblest in the totem-pole hierarchy and perhaps the only sane individuals in that lousy den of creeps – and who get so callously crushed in the cruel clutches of the rest of those crooks).

I refuse to say anything negative about how such “chowk staff” individuals, in reality, are little more than bouncer babies for the chowks ladies and “ledaas” of easy virtue – those puffed-up liars of lawyers and those little looneys and lurid outliers who fancy themselves as legitimate lekhaks – not to mention those bungling baboons who imagine themselves to be legitimate editors but whose job consists of simply waving on the lousiest of the lousiest of verbal diarrhea which no sane individual will confuse with an article – even when it is amply evident that the writer probable spends more effort straining to relieve herself in the loo than pondering over that OTHER crap relieved through her keyboard.

And I refuse to criticize all their cohorts located on this pathetic excuse of a web site, including the so-called “liberals” who consider themselves above it all – too far above it all to be concerned with such basic characteristics as common sense and decency – but invariably and unfailingly side with the devil nevertheless by poking “jokes” – har, har, har…!

And I will withhold criticism of those smarty-pants who consider themselves experts on copyright laws – at least when it comes to posting the Mahatma’s pictures – while handing over green passes (yes, you heard it GREEN!) left and right to all others – and having orgasm after orgasm as the dead Mahatma’s memories are desecrated again and again – and whose sense of decency is a casualty to their GREEN land of dreams while they gobble up all the green stuff that the foreign countries provide them – then turn around and relieve themselves ungratefully by crapping all over the values espoused by those same sane countries!

Again and again, I refuse to say anything negative regarding that gang of nameless, faceless buffoons hiding behind such non-descript terms like “chowk-staff” – a term perhaps accurately describing the physical state of individuals who may have a flagpole staff stuck in vulnerable spots – that gang which assumes the quadruple role of accuser, jury, judge, and hangman – all in one breath – and the “culprit” learns of the charges only AFTER the sentence is executed.

I refuse to condemn this gang of moronic and pathetic liars and self-delusioners!

And I refuse to say anything negative about all of those curious specimens from the land of the purest of the pure – who are so fully attuned to dictatorship – so, so fully attuned that it is second nature to them – they probably do not drool over dictatorship deliberately – it is merely a reflex action!

I refuse to say a single strong word regarding all those lousy, impotent, effete namoonas and dregs of humanity – sans a few basic characteristics – like humanity!

It is fully understandable how the strong, brave pillars of chowk can easily start peeing in their pants when they imagine that the keepers of the Mahatma.org site – a site which does everything in its power to make it EASY to download those pictures – would be coming after THEM, with the Mahatma’s lathi ready to do its lathi-work!

The prison was really no big deal! What is a “couple of days” (not that the Chowk staff can count!) in jail when the Mahatma did more than his share!

It was for a good cause!

More about life in karawas at a later time, after I have enjoyed the fresh breath of freedom. For now –

LET FREEDOM RING!

Sincerely,
Beej.

PS:

(1) I would like to add a quick note to thank all those who supported me – especially my self-appointed lawyer who shares my name with the all-important difference that he adds an A.Y. (as in all yellow!) to it.

(2) While in karawas, I informed the mahatma.org.in site that I intended to use those photos – and that they should let me know if they had objections. It has been over a week and they have not objected yet – so I am going to assume they are okay with it. (Copyright “enforcers” – you can start crying NOW!)

(3) Those who asked questions regarding the story of the Mahatma project, a question I was unable to answer when the cruel creeps of chowk callously cut me off – please refer to their web site at http://www.mahatma.org.in/aboutus/aboutus.jsp?link=ab

Re: # 1217

``Should we assume that you are a pathetic liar? ``

its already confirmed.

Re: # 1217

``Should we assume that you are a pathetic liar? ``

its already confirmed.

Re: # 1217

``Should we assume that you are a pathetic liar? ``

its already confirmed.

Beej
Good work man..

Behram mian
I gave you a list of prominent jews and Parsis. You have still not given any proof of jews or parsis commenting against Gandhi. Should we assume that you are a pathetic liar?

Re#1138 Chowk-Staff

I am forwarding this petition from my “live-in client” – this guy all of you keep referring to. Chowk staff kindly take note and process the request therein promptly – before he goes berserk and creates some REAL trouble!

---

“Dear Chowk staff:”

“Sorry, I did not mean to make you ‘chownk stiff’ (startled to death thingie) with those large number of images. It was like this – once I got going, the thing took a life and speed of its own!”

“I admit – 456 pictures represent an overwhelming number – even though this article perhaps deserved it! The next time, I will obtain a suitable copyright clearance first – and knowing the fact that the source site is non-commercial in nature (like this site (isn’t it?)) and the intent in posting (the IMG links to) those images here was noble, it is doubtful that they would have refused.”

“Or (minus such clearance) perhaps a simple link to each image would have sufficed – I doubt that the issues that concern you would then have come up – but the punch would have been a lot less, too.”

“However, these postings should not be considered SPAM – each posting was unique – it was not sent to multiple recipients – and many of the images contained individual comments! Also, you know that including an image link does not overload or slow down YOUR site – the image comes from the source site and perhaps slows that one and the browser workstation.”

“But look at the overall scene, though, from the viewpoint of the interactors!”

“Okay, so the images are no more there – but every one knows now that they exist! The thing about the truth is – once it has been shown, it is extremely difficult even for the most hardened liers to pretend that it is not there. Of course, such people will continue to bad mouth Gandhi – but with an increasing hollow ring in the voice!”

“I am compiling (while doing karawas in the dog-house) an album of the original images that were (temporarily) posted here – minus the comments, but including the titles where available. If and when I complete it, I intend to send it to the source site to consider posting. I am hoping that the album (if they do decide to post it) will provide the “one stop viewing” that some in this crowd so enjoyed.”

“For those who got turned off by the Mahatma’s naked brown skin – what can I say? So is the skin for most of us. You have it too – ask yourself what you find so despicable about it and why – THAT problem is not the Mahatma’s.”

“And by the way, can somebody get me out of this dog-house?”

“How long two days really are? Are the days being calculated by using the Kumbh-Karan method (each day of being awake followed by six months of sleep)?”

“Sincerely,
Beej.”

Beej
chowk staff is saying that it is `a picture is worth a 1000 words`, not `a 1000 pictures are better than words`
Thanks, though.

Re: # 1212 ana

Well - Behram Mian has already crossed over to the dark side.... He has made his pact with that Angra Mainyu [the bad dude].... He is a disgrace to Parsi community.....

. . . .(some of them are. but i believe behram is a tad bit unfamiliar with qualifiers. . . .)

addendum: as are quite a few indians here at chowk. :)

mohar #1195

ahura mazda is the ``big boss`` rey. *sigh* from what i understand it is a misnomer to call him a fire god. but my knowledge of the zoroastrian faith is minimal. hopefully the link will help you out. or behram can help you out if he`s not too busy truly believing that indians are idiots. (some of them are. but i believe behram is a tad bit unfamiliar with qualifiers)

...30 years down the line...dost-mittar will still be around...scary...

.....3 years down to line , the patriotic Parsi from Pakistan and an ardent qaid admirer in his own right , Mr.Behram , will move in with Yasser....

``unadulterated jealousy due to his world wide popularity (#1).``

Pardesi, there may be other reasons. One can`t be sure. From what one knows of Gandhi, he himself would have advised patience.

(Although, one wonders if that kind of patience is possible for most normal human beings ...that`s why few of us are Gandhians)

---

Soysauce, I have known some pretty khoosat (do you know that word?) brahmin village folks (all thankfully dead now). The only thing that ever made them ashamed of their casteism, and practically tied their tongues, was Gandhi`s name. None of them ever allied themselves with `Hindu`` parties (BJP/Jansangh), all because the RSS had killed ``Gandhi Mahatma.``

Those old men, sadly traditional and casteist, but still essentially good, are all gone now, as has the magic of Gandhi`s name in shaping our behaviors and our thoughts.

Nehru, Gandhi`s protege par excellence, was the first to reject many of Gandhi`s views as `unreal.` And we - the proud inhabitants of the Modern India for which Nehru worked so tirelessly - have ourselves moved along far enought to have rejected (or begun to reject) even Nehru as archaic.

Thus, for many Indians old man Gandhi is at least two intellectual and moral iterations `out-of-date.`

So much so that his name now moves more people outside of India than it does within the boundaries of his own land. But that`s because there are individuals who strongly believe that, for all our wisdom and all our sciences, in many key ways, we as humans still haven`t progressed too far ahead of that irrational and archaic old fool Gandhi.

Were he alive today, that other giant of the times, that great critic of Gandhi, that most important maker of India`s constitution, Babasahed Ambedkar, one suspects, would have agreed with that latter assessment.

.......ten years down the line , Yasser will still be exposing Gandhi on internet message boards....

``Couple years down the line - YLH will come around preening like a fool he is and saying ``Oh, I was young then, I made mistakes``..... and people here will break into a big applause....Dost-Mitter will have tears in his eyes.... everybody will have a big hug.....``

Couple of years down the line...I`ll have a job in IBM or MS , and Yasser will continue to be `aspiring lawyer , trained economist and part-time journalist`...and needless to say , full time future leader of Pakistan.

Gandhi was a giant and we mortals are like blind little fellows trying to figure out an elephant. He has to be viewed from a distance to see the total picture. Here are my two cents on various dimensions of his personality:

1. A world class moral leader with innovative approach to issues - A+
The world sees and respects this dimension.

2. A great Hindu reformer (e.g. untouchables) – A+
All Hindus appreciate his contributions.

3. Pre-independence Political leadership to win independence – A+
No Indian or intellectually honest Pakistani can question that.

4. Develop a sense of religious tolerance amongst Indians - A+
All minorities and broad minded Hindus respect him for this.

5. Provide leadership to deal with Muslim league / Jinnah’s divisive agenda – F

My family suffered from the partition. We were uprooted and had to start from scratch in 47 and therefore we were no fans of him. However as I grew up and was able to understand Gandhi’s tremendous overall contribution, I am in awe of his personality.

Why young Pakistanis need to tear him down after all these years when he has not hurt them, Muslims or Pakistan at all?

My guess - unadulterated jealousy due to his world wide popularity (#1).

Re: # 1204 net
//....This article has ended up as a shouting match and I don’t think anything is going to change further. ....//

Actually - a shouting match is the minimum you need for any change to occur anywhere..... You need to apply force to change anything .... and stagnant gutter that paki mentality is - it needs super force to budge .... shouting match is just the beginning....

But pakis will come around.... I mean - earlier it used to be Kashmir, but you don`t see pakis holding forth on that topic any more, do you? [except for Behram, the Dhimmi] ..... Now pakis have got Gandhi to beat up on..... that will pass too..... all in good time.....

Couple years down the line - YLH will come around preening like a fool he is and saying ``Oh, I was young then, I made mistakes``..... and people here will break into a big applause....Dost-Mitter will have tears in his eyes.... everybody will have a big hug.....

And then YLH will go back and pick up another ``contentious`` topic.... The cycle will continue.... Chowk will stay afloat....

To all indians:

It’s for certain that this article has unearthed a lot of misgivings. Participants have come with a fixed state of mind to pursue their own agenda and beliefs.

The myth of educated, liberal Muslims/Pakis just remained that. This article on Gandhi was not a critical study of him but a malicious campaign to deride and mock at him and subsequently Hindus and India. People came with selective quotes and flimsy reasons like his nakedness to his butt-ugliness to laugh at him. Many had not even read him but were sure that he was anti-women! Some even dragged India’s internal issues like Kashmir, Nagaland to buttress their opinion. Many thought that it would be a great tribute to Jinnah and would greatly enhance his value and contribution to Pakistan and safety of minorities in Pakistan. Many were irked by the title “Mahatma” as he was called by people as varied as Rabindranath Tagore to a common peasant. For them he was just a failed lawyer, fascist Hindu, a castiest and an exotic personality which the west propped up.

Gandhi once said that his life is an open book. It is open to everyone to criticize or learn from his experiences. Gandhi’s method of opposing suppression was not accepted by all and is still questioned by many. Many of his thoughts regarding various issues are considered passé but he is still considered a giant for his contribution to the Civil Disobedience Movement and humanism.

What I observed about Indians was the pride and unity with which they stood for Gandhi’s principles against the Muslim/Paki attack. Even a hardliner like Gujju who has often spoken against Gandhian principles /Congress could not sit idle as the country’s icon was spit at.

This article has ended up as a shouting match and I don’t think anything is going to change further. It seems the poison in the minds of people will take a long time to recede.

In the end I think, Savarkar/Gowalkar has a better understanding of Muslims than Gandhi had. The Mahatma who died seeking rights for the Muslims has himself has become their victim.

Re: # 1198 HP
//...Why be so upset over a m0r0n?....//

Well - for one, it generates 1000+ odd posts and breaks chowk record ..... and it`s fun to see you pakis do the monkey-dance with ``gandhi bad, gandhi bad`` rants.... everytime somebody says ``Mahatma Rocks`` - you pakis give out a collective high-pitch shrill as if somebody pushed a hot-rod right thru your back-sides.........

+++

//....I would talk about Gandhi’s politics...//

Gandhi’s politics? What politics? Didn`t I tell you that the guy was a m0r0n?.....

Anycase - who cares? What difference does it make? .....To indians or people around the world?...... Somebody called him ``Mahatma`` and people around the world went ga-ga over it....[even his opponents, I heard that even jinnah called him Mahatma].... so why should we complain? I mean - India gets free publicity....

Except you pakis, of course.... ``Mahatma`` title has given you pakis a big burn up your collective a$$es - you got to find a cure.....Like I said - we would like to help, but not much .... we can release some more water via baglighar - would that help?

Re: # 1185
D-M ji,
lifelong mission of non-violence and hindu-muslim unity ended in one of the bloodiest communal chapters in history

Don`t you mean ended with? Even then, you could make the statement you made only if you were seeking miracles. Gandhiji was ultimately reconciled to Partition something that has taken most other politicians several more decades.
His legacy endures in India, notwithstanding ``modern`` indians who consider it fashionable to deride him. More than any dalit leader could, Gandhiji sensitized indians to the caste problem. In villages there were high-minded individuals who followed Gandhiji and dined with lower castes/dalits as a renunciation of caste divisions. Some married widows removing some of the taboo associated with widowhood. Anti-caste and gender equality laws have everything to do with Gandhiji.
The greatest thing about him was he tried to live by example rather than by diktat. And he went through a very public life where he shared every thought he had and every (absurd) thing he had attempted. He believed in airing his dirty laundry in public. It takes enormous moral courage to do that - something that the other gentlemen in your list could not claim to have done.
He is an inspiration because he showed that you need not fear your self - that you can follow the inner voice wherever it may lead. Public exposure acts as a corrective. He also showed how an ordinary person can transform oneself (in public view).
He is out there for his critics to criticize and his students to praise but none can claim to have discovered anything new about him. It`s all a matter of interpretation.

#1178

``Hurray for Shakuntala!``

the Motorola CTO`s name is Padmashree Warrier, she is an IIT-D and Cornell grad.

http://www.siliconindia.com/tech/tech_pgtwo.asp?newsno=18034&newscat=Technology

thanks aisha for opening HPs eyes.

behram:

this is what i wrote in #1158

``so it seems according to you the only problem you see with gandhi is his anti-women stance.

now the burden falls on you to prove that, not on me to disprove it. ``

then you write in # 1166

``Respectfully, how am I suppose to prove anything when this whole article on this site was unable to do that? ``

then later in the post you write:

``I did however call him anti-women, which you have not, as of yet disproved. ``

---

so in short, you say that the entire article has not been able to prove that gandhi was anti-women. but you still call him anti-women (without any facts) and want me to prove that he was not anti-women.

does it make any sense to you?

1194 by mohar11

“All Indians, hereby declare that Gandhi was a m0r0n, NOT a Mahatma”

Accepted. Why be so upset over a m0r0n?

“Apple will continue to raise huge-a$$ billboards with ``think different`` and all that.... what are you going to do about that?”

Nothing! All Apple was showing that if you take your clothes off, you will look “different” like your favorite m0r0n in dhoti tried to look.

I feel sorry for you that you think it is an honor when in reality Apple was making fun of Gandhi. Reading between the lines clearly is not your forte. Stop being such a poor sod your love for a m0r0n notwithstanding!

If I were you, I would talk about Gandhi’s politics and not attempt to bamboozle anyone with ignorance and incense.

Re: # 1187 YLH
//.... Indians like you would resort to abuses having no argument...//

``Abuses`` are for your own good son :) - you don`t like the Indian Abuse now - but later you would realize it was for your own benefit.....

See - Gandhi needs no argument, no defence..... He is all set... he has already made it in his life[and death]..... He has booked his place in history for all times to come - as a person who thought different, did different, made a huge contribution to human civilization and evolution .... he invented the power of non-violence ....

Or so the world thinks and accepts..... I know it`s bullsh!t, you know it`s bullsh!t.... but there ain`t a damn thing you can do about it....Gandhi is too big for you... you can`t dent him, destroy him, defile him.... he is beyond your reach....

Son - You have to understand that and accept that .... that`s the way life is.... it will be hard but you have to do it..... The Indian Abuse is for that purpose - so that you may finally lump it and move on and do something in your miserable life.....

It`s all for your own good.... believe me....

behram:

``I did however call him anti-women, which you have not, as of yet disproved. ``

why do you call him anti-women. give me facts.

Re: # 1188 ana

So Ahura Mazda is the good guy.... How does he relate to the Fire god, supposed to be the big boss as far as parsi religion is concerned....

Re: # 1192 HP
//it is time for Indians to....accept that Gandhi was no ``Mahatma`` and he was a politician with all the trappings of a flawed human being....//

Done..... All Indians, hereby declare that Gandhi was a m0r0n, NOT a Mahatma..... Do you want this declaration duly signed on legal papers? We can do that too.... And then we will petition the entire world to stop calling him Mahatma Gandhi.... bring down his statues all over the world... burn all his books, speeches etc.....

We can do all that, if that`s what it takes to cool the perpetual burn in collective paki-a$$es ... will that be sufficient or do we need to call some heavy-duty fire-brigrade to hose down the ``mahatma burn`` that you pakis are nursing for last 70 odd years?.......

I mean - what`s wrong with you pakis? [well, never mind I asked the question]..... Right from the beginning Indians have been telling you - Gandhi was no Mahatma... he was a jack-a$$ in many ways.... In modern India - he is nobody`s hero .... he is a laughing stock, for all practical purposes....

Morevoer - even if indians disown Gandhi - the world will not .... he is darling of people around the world..... what are you pakis going to do about that? Apple will continue to raise huge-a$$ billboards with ``think different`` and all that.... what are you going to do about that?

You can`t fight gandhi - he si too big for you .... we indians would like to help but we can only do so much....

Aisha

Pakistanis, as a people, are not branded as violent/chaotic/unjust/bigoted/anti-feminist people. And when they are so accused, it is not because of Gandhi.

Consider Pakistan`s reputation abroad up until the 1960s. If anyone was going to link Pakistan`s external reputation to Gandhi, that was the time to do it. And Pakistan, as a nation, then, had a better reputation in world capitals, and with various think-tanks, than it does in 2005.

For all Gandhi loving wuss!

This article has been a great learning experience. The article was not about Gandhi’s politics. It was all about what his thoughts were about women in general and how much he was beholden to some really obnoxious thoughts. This was also apparent in his politics when he talked about khadi and taking the India back to medieval times. Ideologically, he probably was the most ridiculous person ever to lead a nation. If he were to take over India after the independence, Indian would still be spinning khadi in dhoti and all the people defending him now would have been making salt by the ocean and catching fish in the dirty waters of Ganges.

OTOH, politically he struck upon an idea for people to distinguish him from the rest of the suit wearing crowd in politics. By just being different, he caught the fancy of the people. Afterwards whatever he said became the gospel truth. The act of putting a dhoti on him made him the genius that he never was. Once he had the public attention, many people helped him with public image. Politically, Gandhi made several mistakes and they are all documented but most of his mistakes can be attributed to the simple fact that most of the Indian politicians at that time were not experienced and it was still the first generation of Indian politicians that struggled or was able to win freedom or was “Given” freedom.

People here have referred to MLK and other politicians who certainly had skeletons everywhere. Having skeletons hasn’t diminished their status as people are able to understand their political contribution to some cause.

The fact is that there were people out there who showed those skeletons and people accepted those skeletons as part of a leader’s life.

True to their hero-worship nature, Indians here are showing that Mediocre minds resist challenges to prevailing orthodoxies.

Most of the Pakistani’s like me were not aware of this side of Gandhi. I am glad that Ms. Sarwari took the time to inform us that what we have always been taught about Gandhi had huge holes. Holes so big that mere ranting of Indians on this site won’t fill.

So far, No Indian has denied or contradicted or shown us that what Ms. Sarwari has quoted is incorrect. In fact, it is time for Indians to come off the high horses and accept that Gandhi was no ``Mahatma`` and he was a politician with all the trappings of a flawed human being.

How mighty fall!

Thank you Ms. Sarwari and look forward to more of these eye opening articles.

Re: # 1189

They already have a room .... but looks like things are not working out too well these days ....

Dost Mittar, 1185,

Well said, but you are wasting your time on Manto and Aisha, eyes wide shut thats how you can describe them. Notice that Manto has nothing to say abt your post.

Ayesa your response, 1178, to ZahraJ post is pathetic.

#1179 by Mantolives on October 11, 2005 1:35am PT


Dear Aisha,


Enough already....get a room you too....

hi mohar:

Ahura Mazda is the abstract and transcendant god of Zoroastrianism. Ahura is the adversary of Angra Mainyu, the Zoroastrian representation of evil. Ahura has no image and cannot be represented in any form (See also: faravahar).

Ahura Mazda, derived from the Old Persian Aura-Mazda (``Aura`` - Lord, ``Mazda`` - Wisdom) symbolizes the supreme deity of Zoroastrian and Mazdean religions.

Ahura Mazda is referred to as Ormazd in modern Persian.

from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

Satyamwada,

I can see how Indians like you would resort to abuses having no argument.

You keep abusing Ayesha Jalal for telling the truth... but H M Seervai was NOT Pakistani my friend.. he was your very own and he used transfer of power papers as his sources as well as the writings of some of your finest ...

So there... please get a grip on yourself man.

-YLH

Re: # 1172 behram
//...By the Grace of Ahura Mazda...//

Who is Ahura mazda?

Dear Aisha:

Congratulations on breaking all records of Interacts with your article. For the sake of chowk, I hope you keep writing more provocative article.

Personally, I think that Gandhi`s aura would have shone a little less if he had not been assasinated. At independece, he was a defeated man who had lost his battle to save the country, whose lifelong mission of non-violence and hindu-muslim unity ended in one of the bloodiest communal chapters in history. He had already lost all political influence in his own party, which refused to disband as per his wishes. His daily prayer meetings were attended by just a few old ladies. Ironically, at the end of his life, he finally got the love of the people he craved all his life, India`s Muslims, but at that time he was probably at the nadir of his popularity among the Hindus who had bestowed upon him the title of the Mahatma and only his assasination restored his aura.

I think that the problem you -and Manto- face is that you are working under a flawed assumption, which is that Gandhi is popular in the world because no one knows about the skeletons in his closet. I do not think that this is true. People like him despite his shortcomings and, more so, because he never tried to use any closets to hide them. His life is an open book, always was, and he never tried to hide even the most embarassing details about himself.

Gandhi is not an exception in this regard. Let us look at the other great icons of the twentieth century. Churchill`s shortcomings were well known and he was, indeed, thrown out of office soon after he accomplished the war mission. John F. Kennedy`s skeletons were well hidden during his time, but even after they have come to light, he is still regarded as a great leader, despite the fact that he presided over the Bay of Pigs, his falling prey to Mafia plants and all that, and not passing a single significant bill in the Congress during his time. Martin Luther King`s skeletons had been constantly leaked by the FBI but this has not prevented him from being an icon for the Blacks. Even in Canada, Trudeau accomplished very little in terms of real achievements but he lives on as a most potent icon of this country.

What all these people had in common was charisma, the ability to articulate the feelings of their followers and make them believe in them and themselves. Gandhi had that in him. After a while in history, the man is forgotten but the image remains.

Aisha Sarwari`s note below (#1178) shows the dishonesty of YLH and his spouse:

Poor Mahatma is to be attacked for just some of his mere thoughts when
his whole life he acted and lived in the most forthright and open manner !!
The Mahatma himeself acknowledges his weaknesses.
On the other hand, the scumbag like Jinnah whose every action was filled
with hatred and violence.
It is said, a mere speck on a white shirt stands out, whereas a whole dirty shirt
is just what it is - a dirty shirt.

---

a) Gandhi was a leader of the Subcontinent, who if read accurately (re: Seervai, Jalal etc) bears some significant brunt of the partition. The fact is relatively unknown.
Gandhi bore no brunt. It is Jinnah and his religious goons who bear the brunth.
Nothwithstanding the lies of Ayesha Jalal. The results of Jinnah`s actions are there
for everyone to see.


b) Gandhi was a flawed man, and like all flawed men, he must deserve the dignity that all mortal men deserve, but, unfortunately he`s made out to be someone he is not. Hence dignity now calls for the man to be rediscovered holistically.
Mahatma himself acknowledges his weaknesses and frailties So little twerps like you
and ylh can do no more than bark.

Was he the champion of:
-Non Violence (given his dictates to kill out of wedlock babies, to beat wives and to sexually abuse minors)
Huh !! The mahatma acknowledges his weakness when he was young. To say he
give dictates to kill out of wedlock babies is your spin (shows how you are the liar).


-Political non-Violence, (He introduced religion into South Asian politics, spitting the movement and snatching it from leaders of Jinnah, Ghokle and Tilak`s standards)
Ha...so you are angry that Gandhi ``snatched`` leadership from Jinnah eh ?
About introducing religion - You want to know what the mullahs were saying ?
Who gave the call to Pakistan ? who wanted to invite the Amirs of Afghanistan to
invade India and make it dar-ul-islam ? Who wanted veto powers based on religion ?
You are just a liar, blaming Gandhi for introducing religion.


-Peace and Justice (His concept of peace was selective, and he wanted justice only for his own people, not for all underdogs)
Yeah. this line is so worthless and false that one can only laugh.

-Equality (He was racist against blacks, and fought against apartheid because he didn`t want himself or other Indians to mingle with the lowly blacks, as a born African I detest this)
Oh yes...he should also have fought against arms smuggling, he should fought against
female infanticide, he should also have fought against polygamy, he did not fight
against smoking, he did not fight against child-marriages, he did not fight against
illiteracy !!
The Mahatma was comparitively young when he started off in South Africa. So he
did not do so many other things.
What did Jinnah do ? - you bozo.

-He was an emancipator of women (He couldn`t even stand women walking with him)
huh ? you fool - Did you see the many writings that were posted on this list ?


c) Gandhi popularly stood for one thing, Truth, and that is the exact thing missing from his image of the world. It’s a reading of selective history that causes these parts of him to remain hidden.
What is obvious - is your ( really Ayesha Jalal`s) selective writing. She will hopefully
be exposed for what she is, a manipulative person.

d) The danger here is that we, Pakistanis as a people, because we once had a conflict of interest with the man, are branded as a) The Violent b) The Politically Violent c) The chaotic and unjust d) The Bigoted e) The Anti-feminist
...once had a conflict ?
Are you blind or just plain stupid. Pakistan ka matlab kya ?
Your whole country is geared up for terrorism, people trained in your country are
killing people around the world, the laws of your country are all prejudiced,
your whole social and govt systems are soaked in bigotry and you are blaming
the Mahatma ?

You, ylh and Ayesha Jalal are all beneath contempt. The problem may indeed
be that the educated folks in Pakiland are all like you. Your hatred and anger for
Hindus has deluded you and you can only think in terms of being ``not-Indian``
and so you pay the price - that is your karma.

Correction #1182
Replace ``frequently`` by ``frequently to virtually every other individual``.

And this one is for Ana, whom I consider a very special interactor!

Ana, I must admit that “other” activities have kept me from keeping track of individual i-logs. However, I must point out to you that you should not let verbal lashings from individual no-name interactors (especially those who do it frequently) get you down – most of such stuff is harmless and it is usually done in the heat of the moment and without any malice intended whatsoever (some individuals can be more fiercely vocal than others) – and its intensity is usually proportionately higher to the amount of expectations one may have from others! I wish you a cheerful frame of mind and the resilience to continue to demonstrate the high quality class in dealing with issues – both inside chowk and outside of this little world – that you have displayed in your own responses. Therefore, cheer up!

Thanks.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Re#1179 Manto
Cheer up, will you! (Also, what is a “treasury bench” and can I get some?)

Re#1178
Dear Aisha (and Manto),
In fairness, the two of you must be commended (not for this article or most of your interacts here, unfortunately) but for your courage under fire. You have taken some rough ammunition – and continue to tick. That’s a good quality and someday it might indeed come handy to you in helping get to that vision of “Modern Democratic Liberal Progressive Pakistan, where everyone has equal rights regardless of religion, caste, creed, gender”. That goal is highly commendable, especially considering that most countries of the world (including of the “first” world) are still trying to get there. I sincerely wish you luck toward that objective. In my opinion, its chances would improve if you focus on the REAL problems of today, not made-up ones after scanty research, as you yourself indicated in #1178 – part (A). Also, this interactor is a strong believer in artistic (including literary) freedoms of all kinds – not a shred of doubt about that – however, a subject as vast as Gandhi – done on the basis of a mere one-hour of research – is unlikely to build the necessary level of nation-wide credibility, or even to boost your readers’ confidence in you – therefore, it’s NOT a good idea to “cook up” an article with the proficiency level in cooking that you have elsewhere admitted having! Also, “blind” prejudice is just as bad as “blind” love – with the important difference that indeed the former can be addressed to some extent! If Mr. Manto did not beforehand review it and suggest improvements along those lines – he has been remiss in his duty toward whom he lists as his number one favorite author on his interactor page – please consider firing him (from the job of a reviewer, I hasten to add – not from his legally-bonded status)! Thanks.

Chowk Staff:

Kindly note that in #1176, the term “chowk-stuff” is to be treated as an article – not as an act! Also, can you do something about the links on the right – they do not seem to work! Has someone been messing with them (not YOU, by any chance?)

Notes for “navigation-challenged” interactors on THIS board:

(1) If you have a high-speed connection, this link will let you see all the comments on a single page – to make life a LITTLE easier (navigation wise).

(2) If you have a low-speed connection – follow the following sub-steps

(a) curse loudly (suggested words: “I have been chowk-stuffed!”),
(b) smack head (use your own – and be gentle, or it might get damaged (if it already is not (which is unlikely since you DID visit this web site, after all (on second thoughts, cancel this sub-step)))), and
(c) get a high-speed connection, then return to step 1.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Dear Chowkstaff,

I wish to register protest at how some of chowk`s finest have resorted to abuse and insults aimed at Aisha, Behram, Godot and Hamidm for disagreeing with the Indian point of view.
It is a matter of great concern that the citizens of the world`s greatest democracy act like quite the fascists when things are not to their liking.

It must be remembered that the whole chowk ideology is pre-disposed to pro-Indian stance since within the collective imagination of chowk staff and chowk cosmos, the Pakistani narrative is at best a well meaning but misguided separatist strand and at worst an outright unreasonable communal narrative. Therefore the Pakistanis here are already forced to argue from a position of weakness which has more to do with the implied ideological bias on the website than the reasonableness of Indian claims.

Therefore, any abuse on part of the ``Treasury benches`` of chowk should be taken note of and made example of by the Chowkstaff, which acts after all in the same capacity as a speaker would in a democratic parliamentary body.

Sincerely

YLH

Dear Aisha,

You wasted your time....

Zahraj`s objective was to tell us that she attended some Indian sponsored ``South Asian Women LEADERS`` seminar.

Well more power to her.

Re: # 703

Zarahj

A) ``This is the most stupid article published on Chowk.``

Thanks for honoring it with such a long post. I wrote it in an hour, browsing Gandhi`s works and just putting it together for kicks. I`ll put in more time on the topic in the future.


B) ``This also reflects the regressive mentality and thought process of certain Pakistanis who have nothing good to do but research on finding the good and bad in the leaders who have left this world way back.``

Gandhi, had he left this world way back, would really not be the problem that he is now. I don`t think you should jump to conclusions about who`s progressive and who`s regressive based on one sourced article on a dead man who in your opinion, ``left this world way back.`` That`s not even an argument, it’s a personal attack.


C) ``What`s the gist of this nonsense? Gandhi did not treat women equally or consider them worthy of anything?``

Yes, this along with his other inconsistencies and bigotry and/or racism.


D) ``Is the purpose to tell hindus on Chowk that their leader had weird policies towards women?``

Actually I think most Hindus know where he stands, this article is for intellectual frigids like you who are too dry to let the touch of Historical truth telling release you from the shackles of propaganda. You are dime a dozen of the famished minds which would rather go with the consensus flow though media and cultural indoctrination rather than formulate an opinion independently.


E) ``Is it a cover-up to hide the bad publicity Pakistan is receiving on the treatment of its women folk?``

It`s a relevant article I think, given the Pakistani context.


F) ``The writer needs to wake up.``

Vague, no real message. Learn to ask intelligent questions.


G) ``Regardless of what Gandhi believed in and did to his wife, all Indian women and men do not follow the same thought process.``

So we shouldn`t talk about what he did to his wife and thought of women?


H) ``Yes, the fact that Indian Culture kicks in every other thing is very true.``

You`re digressing. So what, if Indian Culture kicks in?


I) ``I detest involving culture in my life barring a few items close to my heart - saints/sufis, shawls and select poetry.``

Narcissist. Too much info, go and fill this info in on a shadi.com profile page for Desparado`s Inc.


J)``Just recently, I attended a day long seminar in Chicago where over 100 South Asian Women Leaders were present.``

Yawn


K) ``The participants included CTOs, attorneys, magistrates, physicians, engineers, business women, educationists and technologists.``

And what, you felt inferior?


L) ``There were only 9-10 muslim women in that crowd. Out of those 9-10 muslim women, only 3-4 had Pakistani background.``

Very scientific sample. I await the conclusion.


M) ``The rest were Indian muslims. None of the participants (mainly hindu women) had any issues in terms of where they were in their respective careers.``

You go girls!


N) ``One of the panelists was a very impressive, articulate and brilliant woman in her 40s, the CTO of Motorola - a chemical engineer by background. Despite her international engagements, she was able to attend the event on a weekend just to show her solidarity with women from her part of the world. Not only that, the woman was dressed in a very pretty turquoise eastern dress with beautifully put together matching jewelry.``

Hurray for Shakuntala!


O) ``In my past 10 years or so in Corporate America, I have hardly worked with ikka dukka Indians here and there but I have never attended something like this before where so many ambitious and accomplished south asian women(mostly hindus) were under one roof.``

Wah Wah. Consider turning this into an article, because you`re really boring me here.


P) ``Interestingly, it was evident that they believed in having the cultural affinity. This was a very different environment for me.``

Ya you self-exiled morone who couldn`t make it in her own country.

Q) ``I am not into culture shulture at all and rarely attend any cultural stuff anymore.``

Okkkk....


R) ``I did not see anyone wearing anything on her forehead with any complexes on how her leader, Gandhi Jee, thought of women.``

No kidding???!! Shuks, this whole article, I was trying to prove just that. You got me there! *ashamed*


S) ``I had a strong impression that majority of the women took pride in being of Indian Origin regardless of their bygone leaders’ leanings.``

I salute all woman who stand by their nation and serve their people.


T) ``Based on my 1st hand experience, I am not sure where is this writer coming from?``

God, please go marry Sadna or something. Get to the point!


U) ``Probably, she needs more worldly exposure. Worldly exposure does not come from being a cyber activist or flipping through history books.``

First of all, I am no cyber activist, in fact I hardly write, I wrote an article on Chowk after 2 years or so. And History books, I really can`t read them all, unlike my husband here, who is a walking library.

Oh wait, your post is done. And I still have nothing substantial to respond to.

Let me try explaining the point again.

a) Gandhi was a leader of the Subcontinent, who if read accurately (re: Seervai, Jalal etc) bears some significant brunt of the partition. The fact is relatively unknown.

b) Gandhi was a flawed man, and like all flawed men, he must deserve the dignity that all mortal men deserve, but, unfortunately he`s made out to be someone he is not. Hence dignity now calls for the man to be rediscovered holistically.

Was he the champion of:

-Non Violence (given his dictates to kill out of wedlock babies, to beat wives and to sexually abuse minors)

-Political non-Violence, (He introduced religion into South Asian politics, spitting the movement and snatching it from leaders of Jinnah, Ghokle and Tilak`s standards)

-Peace and Justice (His concept of peace was selective, and he wanted justice only for his own people, not for all underdogs)

-Equality (He was racist against blacks, and fought against apartheid because he didn`t want himself or other Indians to mingle with the lowly blacks, as a born African I detest this)

-He was an emancipator of women (He couldn`t even stand women walking with him)

Let’s dig him up and give him a decent burial.

c) Gandhi popularly stood for one thing, Truth, and that is the exact thing missing from his image of the world. It’s a reading of selective history that causes these parts of him to remain hidden.

d) The danger here is that we, Pakistanis as a people, because we once had a conflict of interest with the man, are branded as a) The Violent b) The Politically Violent c) The chaotic and unjust d) The Bigoted e) The Anti-feminist


MY POINT: It’s high time we get reviewed for facts independently of Gandhi and with the world keeping Gandhi`s holistic life in perspective.

MY POINT: Our narrative deserves a showing in the heritage of the world. Gandhi is overplayed for the wrong reasons and any fair minded person should recognize this fact.

With the threat of being simplistic, I must say there are two kinds of people in this world: Those who have the ability to see it from the underdog’s perspective, and those who don`t.

The latter category cannot be leadership material! Whatever circumstances made him one at the time should be reviewed and not covered up.


Aisha F. Sarwari

#1171 by behram1

[So what is happening in South India between Tamil Nadus and Sri Lanka. Oh, yes....these damn Pakistanis, once again.]

So the Tamils in Sri Lanka are Buddhists? What are you smoking Behram Sahib?

FYI, the Tamils in Sri Lanka are either Hindus or Christians (and may be a sprinkling of Muslims too), but never Buddhists.

There are so many holes in your other posts too that I`m tempted to respond to them, but then, you seem so convinced of your arguments that it is pointless to point it out to someone who actually believes in them in the first place.

Respectfully submitted,
Harish

Re#1175

For those who don`t know

``KK`` stands for Kumbh-Karan. For information regarding that legendary individual, kindly refer to Tulsidas` Ramcharitmanas. In the chowk world, s/he is called ``chowk-staff`` (occasionally referred as ``chowk-stuff``.)

Humbly, respectfully, sobbingly, cryinggly submitted
BeeJay.

Re#1173 Kaalchakra

Looks like my ``absence`` from this site seems to have deprived me of a few interesting goings-on. Also looks like KK has finally become arisen (or is that aroused (there is no implied reference to any body organs, however (Uie, Allah! (Tauba, Tauba!!!!)))).

For now, however, it is probably the ``nice`` thing to do to watch and enjoy (I feel compelled to respect KK`s maryada). Because of certain unknown reasons, I feel a LITTLE tired.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Also,


Dear Mr. Kaalchakra,

Who were you gracing with your visit for this evening? And what was on the menu?

Humbly, respectfully, and obediently submitted and lapped up,
BeeJay

Re: # 1173

Dear kaalchakrabhai:

Ok. Your wish is my command.

With love and humility,

I respectfully submit,

Behram B. Atashband

Behrambhai

You are worrying too much about the yester-year thoughts of Indians and about the backwardness of their icon Gandhi.

Please take a break. Really.

Love and regards

Re: # 1151

Dear mohar11:

By the Grace of Ahura Mazda I have done fine wherever I have been
[Of course you do - your anti-gandhi ``performance`` here has been spectacular - you kicked some serious gandhi-lover a$$es - so you will be just fine in pakiland.....] Remember to love the truth and only the absolute truth which resides only in you.

Thank you for the compliment.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: # 1164

Dear Ranger:

Your name is really powerful. Let me see if your intellect is as powerful.

[About Gandhi - whether he slept with his grand-daughters or not , whether he hated niggers/women/untouchables is based on hearsay and debatable , but frankly immaterial] and this is all the article is all about.

[and as a sin pales in comparison to his treacherous act of blackmailing the free Indian nation into giving away 1/3rd of its treasury to Pakistan by threatening to fast unto death , at a time when an India was engaged in a crucial war with Pakistan over Kashmir.] Okay, then you should consider yourself as a ``Gandhi hater``. Do you? Or you are just too much passionate to think straight right now?

[The reason 1 million soldiers are stationed in Kashmir is to prevent the 5 million Kashmiri muslims to give in to their innate Islamic fundamentalist terrorist inclinations which saw them ethnically cleanse or chase away the entire hindu kufr populations away from the valley , which they did in 1989-91. Also , the 2000 odd hardcore terrorists are not scattered all over the valley , mingling with the local populace. So the only way to deal with such a situation is to have a significantly large army- classic military strategy...something US has not done in Iraq and is consequently suffering.] Is this what you consider as a highly efficient army? To put one (1) million to get 2000. Wow! What a genius you are, Ranger.

[If all the terrorists get together in one place and attack as a conventional force, we wont need more than a couple of thousand soldiers to finish them off.] Yes, and you might just one, if all of them come to you and bow their head to be slughtered. You are just so genius. Unbelieveable.

[You only display your ignorance and foolishness with your ridiculous claims about Indian soldiers fighting buddhists and so on.] So what is happening in South India between Tamil Nadus and Sri Lanka. Oh, yes....these damn Pakistanis, once again.

[Needless to say , India has faced insurgent movements through out its independent history , and won everytime. Unlike Pakistan which lost half of its country , India hasn`t lost an inch so far.] Yes, you are correct, it was the insurgency when you grabbed Muslim Hyderabad. It was the insurgency when you grabbed newly independent Goa. And all along you remained a democracy. And also a society full of non-violent philosophy.

What a load of hog wash? Yesteryear thoughts. Get off your high horse, Ranger, and see the reality. India should act mature on its own, if it wants to be, or even if it is. Your response just shows how despicable India is like it has always been.

Kindly think before you ink,

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Dear Behram1

It`s ok. Everyone has a bad day. You will feel better tomorrow.

You forgot to extend your respect to me this time :(

Re: # 1163

Dear kaalchakra:

That is exactly what I have been thinking all along. What sort of humans are we?

[All this anger, this `Nagaland and Bangladesh,` this `Hindoos and Buddhists,` this `Kashmiris and (their?) namak harami,` this `religious India and undivided India, all undoubtedly delightful talk.... just because that poor old fellow Gandhi was not good to women? :)]

And that is all the writer was talking about.

You figure out the personality that has developed since partition. And that could be your next article.

Thank you for your contribution.

I remain humbled by your thoughts,

Behram B. Atashband

``What is a most respected Parsi from our great neighboring country gonna do about it?``

Well, he can talk.

Also...democracy means honoring the aspiration of the numerical majority. As long as the majority of the people of India want India to hold on to Kashmir and Nagaland and so on , India will continue to do so , using brute force or otherwise , shamelessly and even proudly and at the same time annouce our democratic ans secular credentials at the top of our voice to anybody who cares to listen.

So what is an effete neutred paris from pakistan gonna do about it ?

Re: # 1158

Dear Netizen:

It seems that once again, our Karma is working. I started laughing when I read [now the burden falls on you to prove that, not on me to disprove it.] Respectfully, how am I suppose to prove anything when this whole article on this site was unable to do that? We are in the peanut gallery section remember. We provide comments to the article. Not dissertation on life`s philosophy.

[so go ahead and start your argument. thats what i have been waiting for since yesterday.] And you still did not get it! What makes you so sure that another 24 hours will make any difference? You really believe in miracles that somehow your intellect will function differently. I don`t.

[but somehow the topic got digressed when you started calling him anti-jew and ``with no integrity because satyagraha won`t work against hitler``.] I never said that he was anti-jew. That is your interpretation. I did however call him anti-women, which you have not, as of yet disproved.

[lets see how much dirt we can get on this guy] Even dirt should be valuable for such hates which I have already confessed that I do not have for anybody.

[you keep posting i will reply tommorrow] Why, you have no work to do. You work on promoting Gandhi`s values instead of your employer`s. Now that is what is called a hard working Indian.

Netizen, thank you for your contribution, and please keep the conversation going forward.

Again I will continue to promote harmony and love and would respectfully submit,

Behram B. Atashband

*Also , the 2000 odd hardcore terrorists are scattered all over the valley , mingling with the local populace.*

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Dear Behram

All this anger, this `Nagaland and Bangladesh,` this `Hindoos and Buddhists,` this `Kashmiris and (their?) namak harami,` this `religious India and undivided India,`

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all undoubtedly delightful talk.... just because that poor old fellow Gandhi was not good to women? :)

Re: # 1160

Dear harimau:

[Would that include the Hindus and the Sikhs or just the Muslim vermin?]

First those human killers (read Indian solders) must learn to respect human life. Obviosly you don`t.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Re: # 1149

Dear Edge:

I must ask you this question: How did you know that Sam Manekshaw was not a neutered Parsi? Did you check it out yourself?

You, being a patriotic Indian, should know the answers to the main basic question to why is it relevant for Pakistanis to discuss Gandhi? Well, other than to provide an opportunity for Indians to come across as idiots, there could be no other reason. Right?

Wrong? When it comes to history, I know Indians are idiots.

You, being a patriotic Indian, should evaluate the efficacy of Indian troops. One estimate is that there are over one (1) million Indian troops in a population of five (5) million. Now, that comes to twenty (read 20%) percent of the population. Is that considered effective soldering? That is one (1) in five (5). Okay, those who suggested that it takes one (1) Pakistani soldier for ten (10) hindoos were off base by a factor of two (2). I grant you that. But, that is not the issue. Kashmir is supposedly your province. How come we see a drag in your efficiency?

Oh, and your soldiers are working double shifts in Nagaland, I suppose. Or other places fighting with the Buddhists. You have fighting all across your own country. Except for Kashmir, nobody has any claim on your territories. And you Indians boldy call yourself a democracy. You have no shame.

Oh, BTW, we forgot about Bangla Desh? Being a patriotic Indian, you must consider them really ``namak haram``. These damn Bengalis

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Help them get independence and they hate us now.

Please enlighten as to what you would like to be called, just to make a distinction for these purposes only. Give any name for the length of these dabates only. But, it should be befitting to your thoughts, your words, and your deeds. Remind us what do you consider yourself to be? a Gandhi (hater?)

[actually hate Gandhi for his silly jesuit non-violence , `show-the-other-cheek-to-the-enemy` , muslim appeasement and acts like blackmailing the free Indian nation into giving away 1/3rd of its treasury to Pakistan by threatening to fast unto death , at a time when an India was engaged in a crucial war with Pakistan over Kashmir]. So why are we not saying the same thing. It seems that your hyperbole is for your self-esteem. Is that so?

[We hate Gandhi and we hate Gandhians] Good for you.

[- but because we love India. But when paki mongrels attack Gandhi , they do so to run down India or to project that evil genocidal maniac Jinnah in a better light.] Or is it that you love a religious India?

[Gandhi was a moron , but he is OUR moron]. KEEP HIM. We were talking about his inadequecies regarding women. Then, of course, as usual, we digressed and continued with seeing that Jews did not particularly cared for Gandhi. We learnt that he is seen hanging around his grand daughters (did you see the movie Gandhi). This was actually written in a Jewish magazine that I read back in 1983 (?) when the movie Gandhi came out.

[Its like having a alcoholic in the family. The family members feel free to curse him all they want , but will not tolerate any abuse from the neighbors, After all , he is OUR alcoholic.] Okay. Then why have this discussion at all. Keep you Gandhi and we`ll keep our Jinnah, and heck with Undivided India.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

Ref behram1 #1144

[..... Stop the killings of innocent Kashmiris.]

Would that include the Hindus and the Sikhs or just the Muslim vermin?

HP

He was arrested. But he flew out of jail on an invisible horse, and none dared question him again :)

behram:

so it seems according to you the only problem you see with gandhi is his anti-women stance.

now the burden falls on you to prove that, not on me to disprove it.

so go ahead and start your argument. thats what i have been waiting for since yesterday.

but somehow the topic got digressed when you started calling him anti-jew and ``with no integrity because satyagraha won`t work against hitler``.

lets see how much dirt we can get on this guy.

you keep posting i will reply tommorrow.

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Re: # 1148

``Right now we should be discussing about Gandhi`s inherent problem with women.``

to cut the chase short, did you read kamat articel that i posted? what are your views on them?

you are saying gandhis inherent problem with women, isn`t?

please specify.


``Again, your use of the word we....would bring my response of you, and then you will cry foul play. ``

the alphabet ``w`` was a typo. there is no ``we`` there.

``How does Jinnah come into picture in India``

to mantos rantings about gandhi being a fascist hindu and jinnah being a secular person. even today gandhis principle of secularism is invoked for protection of minorities not jinnah. just look at pak, even shiah-sunnis are killing each other forget about the other communities.

``Secular India, yeah right! I would like to see the day when I see most of the untouchables given human dignity. `

so would i. but its better than a decade back and will only improve. atleast we don`t