Turks: The Bad Part

turks coolest achievement was maintenance of their turkish identity and language inspite of being rulers of an arabic empire. in that sense they were similar to the mughals..offcouurse mughals came into india and the turks ruled arabic lands by using proxy governors and being kalifas, so it was easier for them. so may the mughals were the real overachievers.

zeemax #56 ``The ouburst is regretted.``

the outburst is forgotten. cheers!

netizen #55 true on both points. In fact, not just the crimean war but the entire 19th century is a story of the brits and sometimes the french keeping the russian tsar from overrunning the ottoman empire. as for the german advisers, there was indeed a strong german contingent (under general von sanders) that prepared turkish armies prior to the war. while ataturk made his mark at gallipoli and is rightly credited with that victory, the over-all command of the turkish army at gallipoli was with von sanders. and in fact ottomans by then had spent over a century with french, german, british military advisers being brought in to try an modernize the ottoman military.

While turkey is often held as an example of a ``moderninzing muslim`` country, i think that is a red herring. i think it is much more imporant for muslim countries to study why turkey fell so far behind (socially, economically, culturally, militarily, politicaly) the western world with whom it used to be at par a few centuries ago.

Ref adityapant #58

[....... 2) The Cochin jews were traders who came after the destruction of the temple and stayed on to contribute to the flowering of cosmopolitan culture in that part of the world, with jewish , the first muslim and christian in India mingling with the indigenous population. Till today there is a ``Jew town`` in cochin.]

Kerala itself had both its ``white`` Jews and its ``black`` Jews. The ``black`` Jews are thought to be local people who were slaves. When a Jewish person purchased a slave, he set him free and offered him conversion to Judaism. The ``white`` Jews are probably those who fled Europe`s Inquisition in the 15th and 16th centuries. Both migrated to Israel after 1948 leaving very few Jewish residents in Kerala.

There are about 60,000 Jews of Indian origin in Israel today.

Read about them in the book ``The Jewish Heritage of India``.

Dear Aditya,

The Israelis were first happy to find out that the few thpusand Manipuri tribals were Jews. Reckoned that their emigration would boost Israeli manpower. But on further enquiry they found that there are 75-100 million tribals in India and after this discovery, they are rather less enthusiastic about Indians claiming Jewish origins.

Regards

Dear Fenasi

Many thanks for your interesting window on Turkey. Never been there but as a student of History always fascinated by it. Straddling not continents but cultures and bearing the burden of an Imperial past, modern Turkey sounds like a kichdi (a mixture) and perhaps therein lies their sucess in being represented as ``good muslims`` in a world that increasingly eyes with fear and suspicion anyone with a beard!

As for their so-called inferiority complex, i think you have answered the question yourself..all nations and people are racists to a degree. The caste system, as you restrained from pointing out, is founded in colour ( classifying particular types of labour as menial, I suspect, came later). Let me digress, there are four types of Jews in India.

1) the Konkani Jews, aka Bene Israel were perhaps the oldest of all the Jewish communities in India. They dressed in the traditional Maharashtrian style, with the women wearing the nine-yard sari. Its is believed that they migrated to India at a very early stage and have intermarried with other communities which is why they do not have the typical semitic features. Their religious practice involved only certain rituals bore only a vestigeal resemblance to traditional jewish religion.

2) The Cochin jews were traders who came after the destruction of the temple and stayed on to contribute to the flowering of cosmopolitan culture in that part of the world, with jewish , the first muslim and christian in India mingling with the indigenous population. Till today there is a ``Jew town`` in cochin.

3) the last migratory group was the Baghdadi Jews, a catch all name to refer to Jews coming from the mid-east. the most famous of them were the Sassons, who created a business empire stretchin from Bombay to Shanghai. they have left behind the sassoon library (beautiful building) and the Sasoon dock in Bombay.

4) the fourth group are the most curous of them all, Manipuri Jews. Around 10years back a small tribe in manipur in NE India declared that they were one of the lost tribes of israel. The jury is still out and the israelis arte themselves not sure of how to deal with them..in the mean time some of them have migrated to Israel (and serving in the army acc. to Israeli law) causing some heartburn to the missionaries in the NE.

Now, why this little history lesson?

Well as you pointed out racisim is endemic. Of all the jews listed here (lets exclude the Manipuris for the moment), the Baghdadi Jews were your archetype Jew, fair and semitic in appearence. the average Cochin or konkani Jew, looked more indian than anything else and the latter even more so. And it is they who have suffered racism in Israel where I suspect the desire to build and maintain the state, means steamrolling over cultural hybridity. Its sad when a people whose history has been one of persecution ends up doing the same. (I`ll give the Ottomans this..when they occupied Jerusalem, there was no persecution and no matter what the Arabs and other say, Ottoman rule, though decadent and feudal was also lenient in some other ways).

Moral of the story..why blame the Turks for being racist? as they say in Hindi, when you point one finger, three others point back at you!

would love to go to Istanbul.......

regards

aditya

p.s. Read ``The Historian`` ..a fantastic, if a bit Dan Brown-ish , account of Ottoman and Eastern Europe political relations.

#21 by SR

[European Union has no choice but to eventually let Turkey in... If they don`t do that the EU cannot and will not survive even to the end of the century. Turkey, with its young population, is the only choice an aging EU has in order to survive. Austria`s continued refusal to let Turkey into the EU is simply unsustainable for longer than another decade at most. To keep Turkey out much beyond that is a mathematical impossibility. To do so will spell the end of EU. ]

I think Europeans need to decide which way they want to go.

One way is to attempt to preserve their culture and identity, and find ways around the population growth issue. The other way is to let the Trojan horse of Turkey in. Now that would be as fatal as a cancer of the pancreas. With the rights accorded to the EU member countries, which include unrestricted rights of travel and employment throughout the Union, the cancer would swiftly metastasize to all parts of Europe. The Europeans would begin to comprehend what us long-suffering Indians have been talking about all these years.

But it would be too late. The beards would be multiplying like magic. The rot would set in swiftly. First there would be a few complaints and clashes about blaring prayers five times a day over the loudspeakers, then there would be small fights breaking out at Christian religious processions passing through/near majority Muslim neighbourhoods, then bigger fights - Muslims condemning Christians as non-secular and communal, abductions, forced marriages - the usual stuff.

Slowly Europe would transform itself into another Muslim majority area, and Evil would have gained yet another foothold in this world. Ironically, in such a scenario, the lefties - the natural allies of the Islamists - would be the first to be finished off.

This is a scenario that should seriously scare the hell out of any right-thinking person, but lefties and Islamic apologists would try to soothe any concerns.

America and China (and maybe Australia) could be the last strongholds of Good (in the case of China, that`s a relativistic evaluation) fighting the satanical forces of Evil.

I hope Europe wakes up and realizes what it is toying with.

#35 by tahmed32

No. Actually I`m still waiting for my promised consignment from SR ! I do admit though the general tone of some responses had got to me. The ouburst is regretted.

Re: # 46

tahmed:

in the crimena war, the turks would have have been defeated by the russians had the british and the french didn`t fight against the russians.

also, wasn`t a german the military advisor to the turks during WW1

#52 by nasah

[as far as I know -- hijab is not allowed -- in school or universities, not in government work place neither in the legislative assemblies....hijab is forbidden in government institutions according to Turkish very tough secular laws.... ]


Muslims can be unrelentingly, uncompromisingly and mind-bendingly ``secular`` when they constitute 99.6% of the population.

ahmedmadani #28

If dark skinned people are discriminated against it is an incentive to work harder and come up in life

``On the other hand women who don`t wear the hijab are allowed to wear and do what they like without a fatwa over their heads.``(Kabuliwala)

as far as I know -- hijab is not allowed -- in school or universities, not in government work place neither in the legislative assemblies....hijab is forbidden in government institutions according to Turkish very tough secular laws....

re: #48

Chauhan bhai,

people dissing Turkey are just jealous that their own countries do not enjoy the success and fair name of Turkey...by leaving their Islamic Ummah baggage, Turks have been able to better themselves without having access to oil. Turkey will probably be the only developed country in the Islamic world when the oil reserves get depleted in the middle-east. They are willing to learn from the west and all the while, from what I have read, have not forgotten their Turkish roots and culture, the operative word there being Turkish and not necessarily Islamic. In fact they seem to be very proud of it. Having said all that, Islam is in no danger of being eclipsed in Turkey as the overwhelming majority of Turks still identify themselves as Muslim. Women especially in the rural areas and migrants to cities wear the hijab and observe all the practices and rituals of traditional Islam. On the other hand women who don`t wear the hijab are allowed to wear and do what they like without a fatwa over their heads. Their family structures are very strong as evidenced by their almost reverent love for children. They are basically having the best of both worlds, traditional and modern. That is in my opinion true enlightened moderation.

regards

Cyprus is in Europe, Turkish Thrace is not. Georgia and Armenia are in Europe, Azerbaijan in not. Soon Israel will be in Europe, but Istanbut will not. I don`t care what the EU do and how its citizens decide, I just have a problem with this redefinition of geography from how this subject has been taught to me. It is bad enough knowing where Myanmar is or what part of New Guinea belongs to Argentina.

Re: # 43 Perdesi

The idea of a fully functional ``European Union`` is, no doubt, very attractive on paper. But I suspect its got one huge hurdle in its way that may never let it happen. That hurdle is ``human nature.``

Only by force of arms can such diverse peoples and cultures be cemented under a monolithic central authority. European people would not want to be subject to yet another bureaucratic layer of a super-government. It has been done before to varying degrees, covering much of the continent at times, such as under the Romans, Charlemagne, Hapsburgs, Napolean, Hitler and you could also say, partially, under the Soviets.

Europe`s strength is in its diversity. That diversity can best be co-opted through mutual cooperation and common markets, not through this nonsense of creating yet another monstrous United States. (God knows one such giant is bad enough, the world cannot afford another.)

Tomorrows world, if it to be more free and florishing than today, will need to see diminishing central governmental authorities and more local autonomy with cooperation amongst neighbors rather than bigger and bigger governmental monstrosities.

As for the idea of all English speaking countries forming a block, its certainly viable. But I doubt if it will be at the governmental level. I believe it will happen but at the level of global corporations. English speaking based multinationals cooperating and competing against, say, Chinese and/or Japanese or others. The real power is gradually shifting away from the nation state and towards corporate conglomurates. The real governments of tomorrow are most likely multinational commercial empires, not state based entities. They will have all the same trappings of power, law enforcement, military force, massive bureaucracies etc, etc, but they will not be answerable to parliaments and voters. They will be answerable to boardrooms and stockholders. This one-man one-vote democracy is a luxuary tomorrows world will not have except at the Town Hall level. The dog catchers and fire fighters will be the province of democracies. International Affairs and top level Power Politics will go on in board rooms or in places like Jackson Hole and Davos. English speakers will be the big daddys for some time to come but they`ll be just as likely to reside in Fiji and Litchenstein than in London or New York.

...SR

#30, Kabuliwallah,
Thank you, sir, for restoring some balance into the discussion. Having been a great world power for almost six centuries, Ottoman Turkey carried substantial excess baggage, enmity, and backwardness into the 20th century. Of course, such an empire could not have prevailed for so long without some positive elements of courage, discipline, organization, administration, tolerance, and sheer determination. All great and decaying things must come to an end so that even better and livelier successors may emerge.

Today, Turkey wants to be known for its glorious mountains, spectacular beaches, graceful minarets, and thousands of miles of pristine coastline. Turks want to be seen as pleasant, hospitable, friendly, and tolerant people, who wish to dominate no one. Turkey is genuinely one of the most secular countries in practice that I have ever seen.

Quite a few Pakistanis are having a field day in bashing Turkey in this forum. I just want to remind them that the democratically-elected Turkish government, despite being offered billions in aid by Washington, decided not to allow the use of its territory and airspace for the unlawful invasion of Iraq. This is in contrast to the pusillanimous policies of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and yes, Pakistan. People should clean the garbage in their own houses before complaining about the decor in their neighbor`s house. I think that you get my point.

By the way, Mr./Ms. Zeemax, there is no ``d`` in Ataturk. I think that you had a genuine typo in your reference to that great man, who set Turkey on the right path. Too bad, Mushy is no Ataturk.