Linguistic Imperialism

Re: # 293

syed,

..... excellent informative post ...... what are you doing here with us rabble rousing morons ?

Reply HP #116

“Unfortunately I have to disagree with your above assertion. Linguistically – Punjabi is not a distinct language unless you refer to the Gurmukhi script based Punjabi developed by the Sikhs.I think that is a loaded statement and probably reflects your inclination to disparage other Pakistani languages.”

There is nothing disparaging in my statements that demeans any of the Pakistani regional languages. Au contraire, languages bring forth a certain vitality that enriches an entire society. The statement is uncalled for and is based on pure conjecture on your part.

“Linguistically- becomes a vague term when we know that pretty much all north Indian languages are related to each other in many different ways and that is the result of a continued migration within and from outside in India for centuries. “

Linguistics is an actually academic discipline which incidentally was attributed to an Indian named panini. The uses certain classification scheme based on linguistic attributes that it consigns to as languages or dialects. All Pakistani languages , Kashmiri, Sindhi, Baluchi, and Pashto and Urdu are classified as languages. Punjabi ( Western) is classified as a dialect and not a language because it does not have a distinctive alphabet and consequently no prose. It is primarily a colloquial language and is hence labeled a dialect.
You may disagree with this assignment for sentimental reasons but that does not make linguistics a bogus discipline.



“Gurmukhi script is a recent phenomenon. It was there but never really had any patronage until the partition.”

Gurmukhi implies spoken languages of the Gurus – i.e. the Sikhs claim that Guru Nanak compiled his works in the language and that was late 15th early 16th century. Actually the Sikh holy book dating back some 4-5 centuries is written in the same language. Ranjit Singh, whose court language was Persian primarily because the Durrani, Safavid and the remnants of the Mughal kingdoms all had Persian as their official languages. It is highly doubtful that Ranjit Singh would deliberatly alienate his political base ie the khalsa by discouraging the use of Gurmukhi. It is like stating the Arabs accompanying Mohammed bin Qasim adopted the Sindhi language and abandoned Arabic.


“It seems to me that you take fancy in putting a Marxist interpretation of history forward. That to me is not the only way to explore the vagaries of cultures. It is too black and white and often Marxist construct ignores many other factors in favor of purely economics based frames. “

Marxist ideology states that economics enjoys the centrality in all things social, moral and artistic. All I had stated was that economics was the prime motivator for the spread of Urdu in the army cantonments and subsequently in the petty bourgeois. That does not make it a Marxist interpretation.- I think you are confusing economic underpinnings primarily as Marxist ideology. It is precisely for that very same reason that the majority of Punjabi speaking people are adopting Urdu as their first language and not their love for Ghalib or Faiz. If you take it a bit further the very same reason applies to the rampant adoption of English in the urban settings of Pakistan not the popularity of the bard in the subcontinent.

“Coming back to Urdu, It developed in the urban center of Northern India and I have no beef with that. But it was never the language of people at large like Hindi is in India and Punjabi is in Pakistan. “

I did some research on this and I found some interesting numbers – There are about 104 million speakers of Punjabi in the world, About 62 million of which are in West Punjab, 28 million or so speak Gurmukhi dialects, and an additional 14 million speak Saraiki.

Contrasting that with Urdu I found that Urdu is claimed by about 62 million people as their native language, about 48-50 million in India, and about 12-13 million in Pakistan, and if you add the non native speakers primarily in Pakistan – the numbers go up to 104 million. I also looked at Turkish – which has some 60 million Native speakers and some 75 million total speakers of the language and Persian with 57 million native speakers and 110 million total speakers of that language. So Urdu does quite well in commanding a large following of native speakers.

Hindi language on the other hand claims to have 180 Million Native speakers and numbers swell to 480 million speakers when adding non-native speakers - almost 50% of the population of India.

Re: # 291
hamindam saab, we all know that you are an oreo for long time, you dont have to explicitly
state that.but unlike you some people like salim like being what they are. I have no doubt
that if a gora tells you that shit is good for you, you would eat it. good for you:)

Re: # 289

salim mian,

............ we all aspire to be something better than what we are ........ i, for example, have always wanted to be white because i think it is more civilized to use utensils instead of licking your fingers and it is a lot more comfortable taking a whiz standing up .......... and of course i am a little partial towards blondes (trust me) ................ but what is your excuse for wanting to be an indian?...... arn`t they basically the same as pakis, other than the fact that they worship cows instead of eating them like they should ? ............. and please don`t tell me you actually like heeng !

........... self-hatred is not good unless you have better standards ..........

RE #288

Bumpkin Chandra Chatterjee wrote ``Vande Mataram``; Tagore did write Jona Gona Mona

Another Paki anthem.

Aao bacchoN ser karaain tumko Pakistani ki
Jiske khaatir humne di qurbani laakhoN jaan ki

Mashriq meN Bengal humaara
BaRa haryala he
YahaN ka bacha bacha
Apni qaum ko marne wala he.

Re: # 281

Jan man gan was written by Bakimchandr Chatterji, not Tagore.

Very funny and spot on.

Re: # 285

Beej, you are Ulloo ka Kan (ears of the wise).

Just catching up on conversation here – most of it is highly linguistically-challenged. This ardent appeal caught my eye.

[#271 by hamidm2….
chowk staff,
…. called me an ``ulloo ka patha`` …..]

Hamidm, why would you so vehemently deny being a progeny of the wise?

hamidum2 {``also remember that ``age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill``..................``}

Hamdiam Sahib,
I think the expression is ``youth is wasted on the young.`` :)
What about a combo of ``youth and treachery?``


Axeman,
If you enjoy spanking so much, then you should go to Chowk UP - plenty of deviates there, some even like spanking. You may have to negotiate terms because some of them believe it is better to give than to receive - except when it comes to charity. :)

Re: # 282
Hamid Sahib, I am not versed in what Barnard Shah Ji said, but let me say this: I look up to wisdom and astuteness from those who have experienced life more than I have. Every time I give my Walid Sahib an advise of some sort or tell him what he should do, to my astonishment, he does completely the opposite. It never occurs to that dumbo that what if I am accidentally right?

I agree with you, Salim Chauhan Sahib need some spanking. Do I have your permission?

salim and kulharee mian,

sigh !.........i never really understood what bernard shaw meant untill i ran into you two : ``youth is such a wonderful thing. what a crime to waste it on children``........ yes sir - what a waste ....... sigh (again)


also remember that ``age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill``..................

Re: muqaddam #175:
``The only possible answer to this is that the then Pakistani rulers possibly were mainly reacting to the Indian anthem which was in Sanskrit. If the Indians could have an anthem in Sanskrit, why could not the Pakistanis have theirs in Persian? An anthem in Urdu( which then was in any case Hindustani) would not mark Pakistan distinct from India. To hell with whether anyone understood it or no.``

Er, the Indian national anthem ``Jana Gana Mana`` is in Bengali, not Sanskrit. It was written by Rabindranath Tagore. In practice, it does not make a difference, because most Indians do not understand Bengali either. Regarding your comment of being distinct from India, at least the East Pakistanis did not have that issue, since they chose another Bengali poem by Rabindranath Tagore for their national anthem.

Re: # 279

Chauhan Sahib, Obviously I need a lot to learn a from senior Chowkies such as yourself and Hamid Sahib. I am a relatively newcomer here, so please go easy on me. Hamid Sahib is all yours. At his age, feeling every ghasa is a sign that one is alive.

#278, Axeman,
You obviouosly don`t know octogenarians overdozed on Viagra. You need to give them their real medecine in small doses. Comprende?