Linguistic Imperialism

#224

I remember even in the early seventies, the commentator narrating the yom-e-Pakistan military parade used words like tan man dhan qualifying the services renederd by the Pakistani soldier. Similarly just some time back I heard a bibi form Punjab(West) praising somebody as a bhala manas. Words like dukh, maa mamata all Sanskrit based are in common use in spoken langauage in Pakistan. So, what is the big fuss about?

Re: # 235
ranit #235
I always wondered about that. Is it that we are not taught about resistance in pakistan area to external invaders and british or they are just too meek? Even the chowkies never mentioned about any freedom fighters or of any people who fought the muslim invaders.
I think they are just very meeek people. The meekness shows in their acceptance of any tom, dick and harry general that wants to rule pakistan. It also shows in how they give up their freedom to any mullah who wants to throw the book at them. Try doing that to indians, throwing gita or ramayan at them. They had thrown the sankaracharya in jail without bail recently.

Behram, you should change your name to Besharam. You are a Parsi. Parsis were given refuge by hindus when the muslims kicked you out of Iran. Your ancestors would have perished and you would have vanished as a race, were it not for us hindus in India. And now you return that favor by siding with muslims and Pakistanis and calling us dark and ugly? Dont you have any sense of shame? Just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished!!

I dont care about looks but let us compare sense of honor and bravery. Name me one Pakistani personality in the past 1000 years who fought for his people, who fought against external invaders, who stood up for his way of life or raised his voice against tyranny. It is a shame!! The only admirable Pakistani I can think of is Raja Porus who fought against Alexander. Since then, no Pakistani has every shown any resistance to any invaders. You can argue that being muslims, they did not want to fight against the Mughals. All right, but what about the British? Which Pakistani person fought against the British during the entire British rule? Maybe one, Ghaffar Khan who has been disowned by Pakistanis. Every other Pakistani person collaborated with the Brits. Even Pakistan`s founder Jinnah was from outside Pakistan.

Therefore, my thesis holds that Pakistanis are a bunch of beghairat cowards. Whenever they face any adversary, they roll over and offer their servitude. Just look at how Musharraf behaves in front of Bush like a lap dog. The Iranians, the Afghans and the Indians all deal with Bush from a position of strength. The Pakistanis just need one phone call from Colin Powell and they are willing to sell their mothers and daughters (as quoted explicitly by an US official). I am sure when Ghaznavi and Ghauri showed up, the Pakistanis showed exactly the same Musharraf type mindset by accepting servitude, converting to Islam and offering their women in order to get their lives spared.

#233, {``I am very sure if this feeling of ``superiority`` is taken from them they will start comparing the length of you know what ;) ``}

Netizen,
Then they will run into Semites who will once and for all prove to them that they are not descended directly from the Arab conquerors. :)

That`s when they will claim to be Africans.

Re: # 231

As a kid growing up in cosmopolitan mumbai, i witnessed the north indians doing the same to south indians. But that was when we were in 6-8 grade. i guess some pakistanis have still have not grown up beyond that stage.

there are a few which will time and again take satisfaction over the fact that they are very ``fair-skinned`` that an indian. i really wonder what they feel in front of a gora. by the same yardstick maybe they think that they are inferior to them.

i don`t think such posts even deserve a reply, its just a refuge of the intellectually (by chowk standards) bankrupt. i just pity them as thats what is left for them to be happy or feel superior. time and again i think about replying sarcastically but don`t feel to do.

I am very sure if this feeling of ``superiority`` is taken from them they will start comparing the length of you know what ;)

#Netizen,
You are right, Behram started it.

Netizen, #229 {``Moreover the ``good-looking`` pakis and ``ugly`` indians tug-of-war was started...``}

Netizen,
I have been following with some dismay and some laughter this assertion by Pakis that they are fairer-skinned and better looking than Indians. It is so utterly stupid, so logically ridiculous that I have tried to either ignore the boasting or just make further jokes to ridicule the basic assertion. Both Pakis and Indians are descended from the esentially same people. Some mixture here and there does not alter the basic similarity. Yes, I have noticed Atif and Romair and some others proclaim the superiority of Paki genes - especially the light-skinned aspects of the Indian subcontinent the farther west and north one moves. Strange and tragic, that the earthquakes happened in the west and the north and many of the victims were the fairest skinned of all Pakis and Indians. BaRa bol kabhi nahiN bolna chahiye - but maybe that is a Hindu proverb and not a Muslim one.

Now watch all the Pakis jump on me for saying such a thing, thus proving another proverb.

Dhobhi se bas na chala to gadhey key kaan muRoR liye. :)

While I like gadhas because they are such hardworking and unappreciated animals, I do not want any gadha jokes as a result.

Re: # 228

aman:

behram is just a mirror image of ranjit. he is a rabid indian hater and a liar to boot.

here is how it all started, when ranjit was nowhere on the horizon:

180 by behram1 on October 22, 2005 1:00pm PT
Re: # 158

astakh-fur-illah

comapring good looking Pakistanis w/ ugly Indians. How dare you?

Re: # 227

behram:

i didn`t what to dive into your ``intellectual`` discussion with ranjit, but couldn`t help noticing your lack of reading comprehension.

in post # 190, ranjit means the area which comprises pakistan of today. Moreover the ``good-looking`` pakis and ``ugly`` indians tug-of-war was started by you. now don`t disown it. atleast stand by your convictions because i know ``parsis don`t lie`` ;)

no wonder i was disappointed by your replies in the gandhi thread.

respectfully and truthfully submitted

Behram,

Ranjit, is a rabid Pakistani hater, he is best ignored. Sometimes I think that Ranjit is a chowk staffer, bec everytime when the interacts are tepid and sane there comes one explosive one from ranjit to get more interacts going again.

Re: # 226

Dear amansandhu:

Actually, I agree with you that [If fair skin and sharp features are a criteria than come to Punjab, Haryana and Himachal in India where every second person is fair skinned and sharp featured that it is no big deal.]

But, you must not have read Ranjit`s (Post #90), wherein he accused that somehow the good looks of some Indians were due to [Until then it would be a picnic slaughtering Pakistanis and raping their women, which explains their ``good looks`` that they are proud of today.] their women being raped. Because we did not have Pakistan before 1947. Or did we? So according to Ranjit, all those who have fair skin and consider themselves ``good looking`` are off-springs of someone raping someone.

Let us just find out from ranjit, whose ancestors were raped.

Respectfully submitted,

#Berham and other Pakistanis,

I have been reading about Pakis being better loking than Indians etc etc, for quite some time now. If fair skin and sharp features are a criteria than come to Punjab, Haryana and Himachal in India where every second person is fair skinned and sharp featured that it is no big deal. Thankfully Indians are not obssesed with white skin any more.

#218, {``unlike you, mr. walking STD ``}

Wrong again, lil paki scout, :)

While we were in the Chowk slammer, you made several advances that I repulsed. I knew fully well that you were a carrier. You little stool pigeon, you.

Friend, #223 {``But a reality check for you, dear Saheb! Last I heard, bania culture has been making deep inroads in Pakistani towns.``}

Dost,
You have a very good point there. The cultural impact of Bollywood and Jee TV is apparent. So many Pakis now understand really Hindi words such as chinta, prem, bhawishr, aashirvad, etc..

Is it possible that there is a plot to use Bollywood to undo the TNT?

fuzair #219
After Partition, the Indians have made a conscious effort to Hinduize/indigenize it by replacing Persian/Arabic words with Sanskrit ones and coining new terms, e.g., ``doordarshan`` for ``television.``

Haan saheb, we bloody indian are really to be blamed for this hindi-urdu mess. Pakistan are so good and have take soooo much pride in their heritage..

But a reality check for you, dear Saheb! Last I heard, bania culture has been making deep inroads in Pakistani towns. Kids are imitating hindi dialogues. Women are singing hindi songs during marriages.

#219 {``Two more wheels to make sure the job is done right? ``}

And she knows exactly where to get the two tires for those two wheels. Yes, you can take off the tires from around your neck - save the matches and don`t you know that there is a gasoline shortage.

fuzair saheb:

qartaas e abaid

#217, Scout {``how low is Salim_Chauan going when he tries to score points over me for exposing his psychosis by falsely accusing me of making fun of earthquake victims.
...if there is a God, may this runt be run over by a 16 wheeler and sent to hell where he belongs.``}

Scout (Chowk`s perpetual liar and conniving canine of the female gender),
You are lying again. Did you or did you not start a thread right after the earthquake in Pakistan poking fun at the unfortunate victims by asking why nothing tragic happens in Idaho and Wyoming? Then you followed that up with more heartless ``jokes`` about the poor victims. Stop lying. You got caught with your chaddis down.

If your belief in God is based on 16 wheelers disposing of your enemies, then you may as well become the atheist that you pretend to be. That would be far better for you than your blatant insults that you hurled upon the Holy Prophet (PBUH) by calling him a pedophile. Even young Haroon wanted to run you over with a car.

Maybe you are not a liar after all. Advanced syphillis can cause brain damage and you are well on your way. Are you sure that you were not there in the tent with Ms Jahangir? You seem to be so sure of her innocence. Seriously, drinking coffee is not all that bad - just make sure that you use the right end of your miserable torso when you indulge in that drink.

#217,

Ummmm, Scout, don`t you mean an 18 wheeler? Two more wheels to make sure the job is done right?

+++++++++++++

I thought the language debate, on Urdu vs. Hindi, is pretty much pointless. I recall reading that when the Gora Saab came to Hindia, they found that there was pretty much one language in Northern India that served as a de facto lingua franca. The Gora Saab, in his infinite wisdom, decided to call that language ``Hindustani.`` They also noted that the Muslims, when they spoke it, added a few Persian/Arabic words and called it ``Urdu.`` When Hindus spoke it, they added a few Sanskrit words and called it ``Hindi.`` I also recall reading elsewhere that Hindustani, when written in the modified Persian script is called Urdu and when written in Devnagri (?) script is called Hindi. That is, its the same frigging language!

After Partition, the Indians have made a conscious effort to Hinduize/indigenize it by replacing Persian/Arabic words with Sanskrit ones and coining new terms, e.g., ``doordarshan`` for ``television.``

Re: # 212

a person who calls Hindu women prostitutes shouldn`t be talking about hamidm making of Indians.... anyone who knows him knows that he makes fun of pakistanis and indians equally and without any sincere malice

unlike you, mr. walking STD

how low is Salim_Chauan going when he tries to score points over me for exposing his psychosis by falsely accusing me of making fun of earthquake victims.

so now anyone who shows salim chauhan the mirror is going to get accused of making fun of earthquake victims.

if there is a God, may this runt be run over by a 16 wheeler and sent to hell where he belongs

Re: # 209

no i wouldn`t want to contract any disease by beating up the walking STD named Salim_Chauhan, cyber beatings are enough for this bayghairat psycho.

you can train a dog to listen to you but you can`t train Salim_Chauhan to follow the interact guidelines posted by Chowk staff.

after being banned several times for harrassing people, plastering chowkies` photographs and names without any respect for anyone`s privacy, this bayghairat still has the nerve to come on Chowk.

You know what`s worse? When some MSA-brainwashed kid advertises our sehri study break as the ``Paksmit Suhoor``!

#203 scout {``he`s called Lahori women prostitutes, he`s called Hindu women prostitutes, he`s called me a non-muslim and anti-pakistan, while he has recently been posting anti-muslim and anti-pakistani comments himself.``}

Scout,
Lying is second nature to you. Twisting facts in your favor or against your enemies is your trademark.

One question? Where is Hira Mandi? What is the profession of women in Hira Mandi? So STFU and tell the whole truth instead of twisting things out of context.

I called you a non-muslim because you called the Holy Prophet (PBUH) a pedophile. Haroon is a witness to that altercation. So, again STFU and tell the whole truth, recthole.

Where is Sonagachi? What is the profession of the women working in Sonagachi? That does not apply to ALL Hindu women as you erroneously imply. Again, STFU and get your facts right, you feline fibber.

If telling the truth, even at the expense of one`s own religion or country of origin, is being anti-muslim or anti-pakistani, then again you are guilty of both lying and hypocrisy. Again, STFU and look at each case before making false accusations, you retarded rodent rapist.

hamidm2 #208 {``i still have a scar on my scalp from the time my sister hit me with a badminton racquet ``}

Hamid Sahib,
Judging by the hateful and racist comments you have made about Indians, you must have said something similar to her and I am sure that you deserved it.

Scout,
No matter how many times I am banned, it is a great pleasure to put your sorry a$$ in its right place, in the bowl.

You are an annoying and hated person and I don`t detest anyone in real life as much as I abhor you and almost everything you stand for.

I read the obituary columns in the NY Times everyday hoping that your name would be there one of these days.

Re: # 203
scout...
he is nothing of the sort...he is simply a sick person...that`s all...you don`t argue or use logic with mental cases...

Re: # 208

salim mian,

......... beware .... i still have a scar on my scalp from the time my sister hit me with a badminton racquet ......... i bet scout could beat you up - you girly man ! ..........

Scout #199, #201, and #203

Why are you itching all over? First you accuse me of abusing women, then you butt in here compalining about abuse toward hamidm, obviously not a female. To make matters worse, you took the joke about asma jahangir so personally. She, after all, started this with her unjustified attack about misuse of tents meant for survivors. I just added some spice to her own hoax.

The two days I spent in the slammer were absolutely the worst two days of my life. Sharing a smelly Chowk blanket with you was not the best experience. Your incessant flatulence, loud snoring, and profane vocabulary are more than unusual punishmnet for anyone. Please behave and stop being such an annoying a$$hole.

Re: # 192

Hunter Sahib,

Have you ever studied economics? Please always use ``Other things remaining the same`` before predicting anything ;)

#205

It is understood ;)

haideri

Re: # 192

Hunter Sahib,

Have you ever studied economics? Please always use ``Other things remaining the same`` before predicting anything ;)

#205

It is understood ;)

haideri

Re: # 195

But the question is. Are you ugly?

Scout! billoo!! yeh kahun ki kabh se bhari baithi ho! ama`n choro yaar, bhool jao salim ko. Woh Anarkali kaa naa raha.

Re: # 202

if people start giving up on `salim mian` he`s going to continue sexually harrassing people on chowk.

he has been sexually harrassing women on the unplugged section for months. obviously, desi women are not bheegi billis and have responded in kind.

but i`m sick of chowk staff giving this guy too many second chances.

he`s called Lahori women prostitutes, he`s called Hindu women prostitutes, he`s called me a non-muslim and anti-pakistan, while he has recently been posting anti-muslim and anti-pakistani comments himself.

he has absolutely no credibility and is nothing but a fitna and harrasser on chowk.

Re: # 199

scout,

.......... thanks for standing up for me ......... i have given up on salim mian - he is a bad boy .......

chowk staff,

here`s another gem from your favorite interactor:

``Started by Salim_Chauhan on October 23, 2005 8:17am PT
Asma Jahangir was arrested yesterday for shamelessly copulating with four Ukrainian relief workers in a tent that was meant for survivors.``


Are you going to let your website disgrace itself with such people?

Ranjit #190

``Pakistanis are losers - they have been losers for the past 1000 years and they will always remain losers.``


I stopped reading your bakwaas after this sentence. You should be sent to jail for extreme lack of intelligence.

chowk staff,

Please read post #196 and tell me if that`s the kind of low level of interaction you allow on Chowk?

And that too against a long time chowkie hamidm, however annoying he may be, he doesn`t deserve to be the brunt of Salim Chauhan`s sexual comments.

And if you allow that kind of interaction on Chowk, I feel really sorry for you guys.

Re: # 173

Please seek psychiatric treatment. It is in your best interests.

Ranjit #190 {``Pakistanis are losers who cannot even take pride in their own heritage. They feel ashamed to be in their own skin. Like ABCDs in USA, they hate their genetic makeup, their skin color, their customs and their own traditions. Like a bunch of beghairat jokers, they try to adopt Arabic or Middle-eastern culture which is alien to them.``}

Ranjit Bhai, Assallam-p-Alaikum wah Rahmatullah, :)

Other than that, how do you feel about Pakistanis?

hamidm2 #161 {``as much as it hurts me to say this, i have to admit that pakis ARE like indians in many many ways ............ some of them in rather disgusting ways: eating with their fingers, nose and ear hair, loudness, unsatisfactory personal hygiene, etc etc ``}

Hamidm Sahib (do number walley),

You are probably the source of the famous English expression ``I will f*** a Chinman in the ar$e before I will shake hands with an Indian.``

I am sure that you have shaken many an Indian hand. We will leave your interactions with orientals to people`s imagination. :)

#194...are you an idiot ? Use the internet. Moron. Try google search.

Re: # 192

what is GDP / capita between Pakistan and India?
Is there any data you have?

What India should work at is at impoverishing Pakistan. Striking at the core of Pakistan`s economy. Competing for the chunk of Pakistan`s exports. I am hinting at textiles. Over 50% of Pakistan`s exports are linked to textiles. What India should do is remove the artificial restrictions and reservations placed on its textile industry. Current labor laws prevent speedy growth. Promote labor flexibility. Reduce the duties and provide export incentives. In no time at all , India`s extrepreneurs will take over the world textile market , even catching up with the Chinese , who currently dominate. Pakistan`s textile economy will be devastated , unable to keep up with the two giants - India and China.

Indian economy currently grows at 8% p.a. This can be easily increased to 10% , if the roadblocks placed before the liberalisation/globalisation/privatisation process are removed.

Thereby I arrive at the following calculation ,

India

GDP by 2015 : $1400 bn (at 8%) and $1560 bn (at 10%)

GDP by 2025 : $2028 bn (at 8%) and $3120 bn (at 10%)

(Chinese GDP will be $4300 bn by 2025.)

Pakistan`s GDP , if the current rate of 7% is maintained , will be $136 bn by 2015 and $188 bn by 2025.

Pakistan`s population by 2025 will be 290 million and India`s , 1450 million.

Which means , India will have 17.5 times the economy of Pakistan in 20 years time and 5 times the population.

Just by maintaining a defence budget at a minimal 3% of GDP , India will have a defence expenditure of almost $100 billion by 2025.

Pakistan , in 20 years time , compelled to keep up with India , will have no choice but to spend at an unprecedented 15-20% of its GDP on defence , and even that will keep its defence expenditure at $24-38 billion , thus practically bankrupting the Pakistani nation and impoverishing its exploding population.


Was it Bhutto or was it Zia who said something about Pakistanis being well determined to fight a 1000 year with India over Kashmir even if it means having to eat grass ?

Grass it is , then. And you dont have to wait for 1000 years.

Re: # 190

There is also a saying ``Anghoor Khatey Hain`` when you acknowledged that Pakistanis by far have [ ``good looks``]. So you agree that Indians are generally ugly.

When will you stop your Indian women from suggesting that their child is ``white``? It is not only the color, it is also the features that Indians have an inferiority complex with. When will you change all of that?

Pakistanis can be characterized by one proverb - ``Dhobi ka Kutta - Na Ghar ka, na Ghat ka``. The centuries of invasions, the automatic defeat of Pakistanis in every war and the severe treatment at the hands of various invaders has left Pakistanis in a pathetic state that deserves our pity. Pakistanis are losers - they have been losers for the past 1000 years and they will always remain losers.

The Indian subcontinent and its civilization has always been defended by people in modern India. Every invader to India met real resistance when they reached Panipat. Until then it would be a picnic slaughtering Pakistanis and raping their women, which explains their ``good looks`` that they are proud of today. The Pakistanis rolled over and embraced Islam, like the cowards that they are. Indians were also defeated but they never gave up. The Rajputs in Rajasthan, the Sikhs, the Marathas, they all continued fighting for centuries and upheld the Indian civilization. Indians forced muslim invaders to settle down and adopt India as their home and ultimately blend in with the local population. Indians forced muslims rulers like Akbar to beome secular and give value to Hinduism. Otherwise, the Pakistanis gave such a lousy account by conceding defeat at the drop of a hat and converting, that hinduism as a religion got a bad name and would have vanished.

The net outcome is that while Indians are a proud people celebrating their culture, Pakistanis are losers who cannot even take pride in their own heritage. They feel ashamed to be in their own skin. Like ABCDs in USA, they hate their genetic makeup, their skin color, their customs and their own traditions. Like a bunch of beghairat jokers, they try to adopt Arabic or Middle-eastern culture which is alien to them. The muslim world laughs at Pakistanis at this absurd attempt and never accepts them as their own. Go to Saudi Arabia and see how they treat Pakistanis like garbage. People who are beghairat are always treated that way.

Re: # 186 Netizen

:).

#185 Netizen

Thanks for Oberoi correction. I forgot his name but did remember his Hilton chain.

Ranbaxy was named after two sons of the founder: Ranbeer (Ran) singh and Gurbaksh (bax) singh by the founder who started his company as a neighborhood drug store in Delhi after partition. There was a great article on this company many years back in Forbes.

Honestly, I hate to see Indians categorized in ethnic terms since we have a great merit based competitive system and all communities have great success stories. It’s only when some folks who believe in putting down or mocking others in order to get a boost to their own bruised pride that I get provoked.

My apologies, if I hurt some Pakistanis for my unkind remarks about their own achievements.

Regards.

Re: # 181

hamidm:

regarding your difficulty understanding hindi:

being a mumbaite, i too don`t understand pure ``shuudh`` hindi words used in Hindi news. I just relate them to the context. similar to pak/urdu programmes.

Re: # 172

pardesi:

``- I won’t mention MM Singh and chief of armed forces since you know for sure that they will kick your smart ass if you try anything stupid. ``

did you purposely miss General Jagjit Singh Arora ;)

Re: # 172

pardesi:

``Since their names are identical to Hindu names, it’s not possible for folks like you to see this variety of Sikhs. ``

Raibahadur Mohan Singh Oberoi of the Oberoi chain of hotels was a clean shaven sikh too even though his children`s names are rajput sounding.

Ranbaxy is the only indian multinational pharmaceutical company.

i am very sure based on population the sikhs are #1 in IAS/IPS too.

Amansandhu #183
You skipped the part where Cops stripped Manto but had to let him gop as their was nothing inside ;-)

I read in Daily Times that Manto-YLH- was roughned up by cops in Lahore for wrong parking. Regards to you manto.

Re: # 159
indikad75,
Sanskrit is not a dead language. It is second langauge for lot of indian students and I am sure they all know the sanskrit grammarian panini. All indian languages are either based on sanskrit or influenced by sanskrit to a great deal. For example even a guy in kerala
can understand if you say yaatrik instead of musaafir. It is ironic that the languages that are closest to sanskrit in north are preferring alien words to sansrit words. That will only distance people from their own civilization. Sanskrit is the cornerstone of our long running indic civilization.

beej,

........ this quote from carlin might make you feel better :

...... ``i`,m embarassed that india is ahead of us now in assassination of single-family political people. we have only two kennedy`s to our credit, they have three gandhis. they have three separate f*#*in gandhis, we only have two kennedy`s! ``

Re: # 158

astakh-fur-illah

comapring good looking Pakistanis w/ ugly Indians. How dare you?

beej,

.......... i went back and actually read through what you wrote and i couldn`t make any sense out of it ......... what the heck are you talking about ..... how did mukhtar mai get into this discussion over gorge carlin and the idiosyncracies of urdu and hindi ? ....... what does religion have to do with it ? ........ why did you call me a coward ?......... uh ?........

.......... anyway, if it makes you feel better, i take back everything i said about gandhi even though it makes me feel bad about myself ..........

p.s. if you are not careful you will end up like urstruly and arjun ..........

Re: # 177

beej mian,

........... whoa !........... i think you need to take a break - you like some others are beginning to take this too seriously ..........

........ i agree with whatever you said even though i couldn`t get past the first few lines given the tone and tenor ......... as my daughter would say, ``take a chill pill !``

Re#174 Hamidm2

[p.s. i hope you have recovered ....]

Hamidm2, cut out the bulls***! I have always had and shall always retain the same level of sanity (or the opposite) that the good Lord ever gave me. There is nothing TEMPORARY or fake about this interactor – those who have been watching me for the last one year ought to know me well enough by now – unless they have no desire to do so!

Simple as that!

It was not your poking fun at a long-dead Gandhi (who is certainly not MY role model), but the hypocrisy that individuals like you display and practice which bothers me!

How often one sees it – too scared to face the criminal so blame the victim! And it’s best to get a free pass from both sides – from the criminal as well as from the conscience – blame both the sides – the proverbial equal opportunity blamer! It’s the easiest thing in the world to do – least risky and maximum theatrics!

And also the lousiest thing!

It’s the SAME logic used by the type of people who ``also`` blame Mukhtaran Mai for raising a ruckus – because otherwise the real culprits will have those people for lunch! The type of people who ``also`` blame the lady doctor for being where she was in the first place – otherwise, you know who will crush them before they can say boo!

The type of people who ``also`` blame Ms. Naz for going and sticking her neck out – what was she expecting – soda water? The fakers who bring up matters of “taste” as if she had a choice of beverage?!

Without naming names – there are people here whose views reach extreme ideological fringes. They say so and whatever one thinks of their ideological aims, their candidness can not be discounted. Good thing is that there are very few individuals at those extreme fringes.

But the reason such people can exist and function is because of cowards like you! YOU provide the body of buffer that every little dangerous microbe needs – to settle down – to practice its act before going out and wreaking havoc elsewhere.

Knowing fully well that the warm bosom – the chicken bosom – will always be there to receive them upon return and protect them through evasion and verbal garbage – perhaps even humor!

My dear, you have a lot of company – so don’t take ALL of it personally!

And talking of pictures, the real problem my dear is that guys like you see the pictures – but don’t GET the picture. You think that a joke here and there will come and rescue you from your coward reality. Sweetheart, the joke is actually on YOU! Guess who will be the first item on the cat’s menu?

Perhaps it’s your darn Pakistani brain-washing and conditioning, perhaps its your sheer individual idiocy and cowardice, and who knows, perhaps (somebody has to bell the cat!) it is a distinctive requirement or feature of your religion – to be submissive!

I have seen extremely few examples on this web site to dissuade the conclusions from heading that last way!

And that fact remains, no matter what language one uses to express it – or to cover it up!

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: # 175

........... having a national anthem in persian is not as bad as having to read the book in arabic ! ........ but, to be honest, most pakistanis don`t pay too much attention to the fact that they don`t understand the anthem and think nothing of it ........they all memorized it as kids and can sing along just fine ............ at least, i never thought about it until somone just mentioned it ........... i guess it must be the same thing with people who pray five times a day in a language they do not understand - they don`t care ! .......... logic has nothing to do with faith, and nationalism is a form of faith ..............

An interesting article which seems to have appealed to all chowkies. This is evident from the fact that just within two days of the article appearing there have been 175 interacts. Is that a record?
Many posts on Pakistan`s national anthem. I do not understand why a country`s anthem should be in a foreign language! At partition time when literacy was abysmally low in Pakistan, who would have understood the Persian text except for those few who studied Persian in universities ( which were in any case too few then)? So let us imagine an illiterate rikshaw puller in a Punjab town; Could he remember by heart the national anthem which was not in a language he understood? Even if, let us suppose, he managed the rote, did he understand the meaning? The answer would be in the negative and that defeats the very purpose of any anthem.
The only possible answer to this is that the then Pakistani rulers possibly were mainly reacting to the Indian anthem which was in Sanskrit. If the Indians could have an anthem in Sanskrit, why could not the Pakistanis have theirs in Persian? An anthem in Urdu( which then was in any case Hindustani) would not mark Pakistan distinct from India. To hell with whether anyone understood it or no.

Re: # 173

carlin (pbuh) is my prophet - i turn to him for answers to all sorts of things that perplex me and he has never failed me (yet) ........... he is also a real linguist unlike shysters like noam chomsky and temporal ............. and if you say one word against him i will flood this site with his pictures ! .........

p.s. i hope you have recovered from your temporary bout of insanity - i never knew that the mahatma was in the same league as shri rajneesh and mahrishi mahesh ! .......... differnet strokes for different folks, i guess - carlin has the same effect on me

Re#171 Hamidm2

Who is Carlin, and can I have him for lunch (instead)?

Scout and the rest, no cutting in, please - just wait for your turns! And be patient!

#166 Romair

You have made this silly statement so many times that it can not be ignored. Change your neighborhood and start meeting some higher level people. However, if you can not afford that, think this way:

- Per capita income of Punjab is higher than your countrymen, supposedly the smart ones
- Largest Indian pharmaceutical firm is owned by Sikhs
- Hilton Hotel chain in India was owned by our folks too (last time I checked)
- I won’t mention MM Singh and chief of armed forces since you know for sure that they will kick your smart ass if you try anything stupid.

Attached is a link for Ajay Banga, who was impressive enough, even with a turban, for Citigroup that he has been appointed as Head of Retail Bank reporting to the Chairman and CEO. If you are trying to get hired or get programming business with citigroup, watch your language :)

Now those were turbaned Sikhs. There are so many non-turbaned Sikhs (like me) in professions and industry that your head will spin. Well, I take it back, it needs a reasonable head. Since their names are identical to Hindu names, it’s not possible for folks like you to see this variety of Sikhs.

Romair, we beat you in strategic thinking and modern industry, whether our people are in armed forces or finance, in India or overseas.

And all this while keeping our own language, regional, and religious pride intact and never having to kiss any Arab’s as$ for donations, which seems to be your people’s specialty.

You silly man, the only reason we accept you, and let you guys associate with us, as our own is because a) you are after all our Punjabi brothers, moron brothers though, and b) we believe that some day you will get over this Islamic fundamentalist virus from Mecca and Medina and become civilized again so that we can truly become one of the great civilizations once again by spending our resources on our own people and not on MIGS and F16s.

Chowk interactions tell me that it will be another 1000 years wait, if not longer. Price for our ancestors’ incompetence in not dealing with murderers from Arab world will have to be paid for long long time.

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/aug/24citi.htm (Ajay Banga)

........ language is a funny thing ........ as carlin notes:

If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?

If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren`t people from Holland called Holes?

Why do we say something is out of whack? What`s a whack?

Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

When someone asks you, ``A penny for your thoughts``, and you put your two cents in, what happens to the other penny?

Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Why do croutons come in airtight packages? It`s just stale bread to begin with.

When cheese gets it`s picture taken, what does it say?

Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist but a person who drives a race car not called a racist?

Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites?

Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?

Why isn`t the number 11 pronounced onety one?

``I am`` is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that ``I do`` is the longest sentence?

If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn`t it follow that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys deranged, models deposed, tree surgeons debarked, and dry cleaners depressed?

If FedEx and UPS were to merge, would they call it Fed UP?

Do Lipton Tea employees take coffee breaks?

What hair color do they put on the driver`s licenses of bald men?

I was thinking about how people seem to read the Bible a whole lot more as they get older, then it dawned on me ... they`re cramming for their final exam.

I thought about how mothers feed their babies with tiny little spoons and forks! So I wondered what do Chinese mothers use? Toothpicks?

Why do they put pictures of criminals up in the Post Office? What are we supposed to do, write to them? Why don`t they just put their pictures on the postage stamps so the mailmen could look for them while they delivered the mail?

If it`s true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive.

No one ever says, ``It`s only a game,`` when their team is winning.

Ever wonder what the speed of lightning would be if it didn`t zigzag?

Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts.

If a cow laughed, would milk come out her nose?

Whatever happened to Preparations A through G?

Romair #168
Did you get bumped on head recently?

Well written Zia.. I enjoyed reading this piece.. though I would like to say that languages evolve all the time and nothing can stop it. Some changes are good some bad, but we have to live with it.. I am sure no one is going to stop you from using Khuda haafiz.. so just be it.

Like most other interacts, the ones here have come down to personal attacks and the usual India vs.Pakistan thing. Sad.

Salil

Also, if Indians call their language, ``Hindi,`` or ``Hindustani,`` how come we cannot call our language, ``Muslimi,`` or, ``Pakistani?`` I suggest we change the name of Urdu to Muslimi.......to compete with the Indian name, Hindi..........

Indian news (what the hell is samachar) are very difficult to understand. Can even Indians understand them? While Indian movies are very easy to understand. And Pakistani news are easy to understand also.

This brings us to the conclusion that Pakistani news and Indian movies/music are actually in Urdu. While Indian news are in some other strange language, that even Indians probably cannot understand. If they could understand the news, then Indian movies would be in that same language, also......

Hence normal Indians and Pakistanis, including Pakistani newscasters, basically speak Urdu. While Indian newscasters speak Hindi or Hindustani, or some other wierd langauge........

I read somewhere that Lata couldn`t speak Urdu when she started singing. And her Urdu had to be cleaned up, by Naushad (?). He didn`t clean up her Hindi. He cleaned up her Urdu. Since she wanted to be a movie singer, in India, her Urdu had to be cleaned up.....Had she wanted to be a newscaster, her Hindi would have been cleaned up......

This brings us to the question: Why do Indian newscasters (and politicians) speak this wierd language, to begin with, when the rest of India and Ashwariya Rai and Shahrukh Khan and Kumar Sanu and even Lata speak Urdu..............

Re: # 166

``And it makes Sardarjis happy, since the words, ``Sardarji`` and, ``Intellect`` are mentioned in the same sentence...........``


haha

I think Pakistanis are like Indians..........Just better looking..........So one could say Pakistanis are better looking versions of Indians.........

The above is called killing two birds with one stone.....It makes the Indians happy because we admit we are like them (why that makes Indias happy is something I cannot understand. I don`t know of any other qaum in the world, which wants to admit that Pakistanis are like them. Other than Sub-Sahara Africans.). It also makes the Pakistanis happy, because it draws a line of superiority.

Actually, Pakistanis are better looking, but somewhat of lower intellect, versions of Indians. Pakistani intellect is about equivalent to that of North Indians, i.e. lower than South Indians but higher than Sardarjis........

This is called killing five birds with one stone............It makes the North Indians happy, since we admit we are like them, in intellect. It makes the South Indians happy, since we admit they are superior to us, in intellect (they already know they have no chance in competing in the looks dept. with anyone, much less Pakistanis, so that point does not offend them)

And it makes Sardarjis happy, since the words, ``Sardarji`` and, ``Intellect`` are mentioned in the same sentence............

so even linguistics/languages turn into a india vs. pakistan hindi vs. urdu whatever pissing match?

you bechaarey log slay me. yet again. LOL

my two cents:

a long time ago i read about a language called Hindustani..... which was spoken in pre-partition India by most people....which was a fair mix of urdu and hindi.....not too persianized neither sanskritized, a language of the common folks.

after the partition.....in order to propagate differences... Urdu and Hindi came into the limelight as distinct languages of Pakistan and India respectfully....and why not? no biggie, two different countries, two different official languages rite?

There is a marked distinction between Hindi and Urdu.... just watch the pakistani urdu news vs. indian hindi news......

i personally, i have to strain my brain to understand either one.

BUT there still remains the natural language which is understood by both Indians and Pakistanis and is more or less the same... the language of dramas, films, and songs and family life.... Pakistanis like to call it Urdu, and Indians like to call it Hindi, even though it`s probably Hindustani, the initial common language of the subcontinent.

And yes, I still say Ramzaan and Khuda Hafiz..... are Allah and Khuda different?

Whatever the meaning, I found it a very beautiful musical composition. In fact, both the Indian and Pakistani anthems are very nicely arranged and composed I must say.

Re#161 by hamidm2

[.......... as much as it hurts me to say this, i have to admit that pakis ARE like indians in many many ways ............ some of them in rather disgusting ways: eating with their fingers,]
Been to KFC lately? And how did you see the Amrikkans eating – doggy-style?

[ nose and ear hair,]
When did you stop growing them? Or simply growing?

[ loudness,]
Been to any football games lately?

[ unsatisfactory personal hygiene, etc etc ]
Yeah mian, the cleaning power of that water poured, rubbed and rinsed between the buttocks will sure never beat those tissue papers vigorously stuffed you know where! Keep rubbing the tissue papers hard, and maybe the brown shade will come off! It must … it simply must!

Re: # 158

beej mian,

.......... as much as it hurts me to say this, i have to admit that pakis ARE like indians in many many ways ............ some of them in rather disgusting ways: eating with their fingers, nose and ear hair, loudness, unsatisfactory personal hygiene, etc etc ........... it is a long list, but hindi is still nothing like urdu .............

Re: # 156

Oh yeah, Aajtak.... I have seen the channel that when I was in India .... it`s awful....

Last year, my cable provider gave me 15 days free trial of ZeeTV, another channel peddling desi garbage .... I got rid of it after 2 days......

Dear Dharma,

Any idea how many Indians know Panini, forget about Sanskrit???

Re#151 Hamidm2

[.......... so the next time someone says ``Hindi is like Urdu``, i am going to slap them silly! .............]

Hamidm Mian, don’t just stop there!

The next time –

Someone says Pakistanis are like Indians – slap them hard!
Someone says Pakistanis have two ears, like the Indians – slap them hard!
Someone says Pakistanis have two eyes, like the Indians – slap them hard!
Someone says Pakistanis have a nose, like the Indians – slap them hard!
Someone says Pakistanis have a mouth, like the Indians – slap them hard!
Someone says Pakistanis have a brain, like the Indians – slap them the hardest!

Sincerely,
Beej.

jeez - you guys are a bunch of lawyers !

..... it was aaj tak ............ www.aajtak.com

.......... and that is my final answer !

Re: # 155

..... sorry, i think it was ``aajtuk`` instead of ``aajtv``, or something like that - they took it away after a few days of free preview ........ for a couple of days i also had this indian punjabi channel which was kind of fun because i understood 95% - the other 5% was hindi/sanskrit gibberish .........

Re: # 153

aaj tv is a paki channel? WTF is hamidm cribbing about then?....... Hamdm Mian - you got to cut back on whatever country liqor you are drinking man?... this is hilarious :)

hamid-m:

``.......... so the next time someone says ``hindi is like urdu``, i am going to slap them silly ! .............``


I am one of those who says that. [Gaal (cheek) haazir hai!]


Actually you can think of Hindi-Urdu as a continuum, with Sanskritised Hindi (Hindi Samachar) at the one end and Persianise-Arabised Urdu at the other. In between is the language spoken/understood by the vast majority of Pakistanis and North Indians which you call Urdu in Pakistan and Hindi in India. This is the language of Bollywood.

Re: # 151


LOL

aaj tv is a Pakistani TV channel..


www.aaj.tv

hamid
//...hindi news came along......but i couldn`t understand a word...///

Nobody does..... so don`t worry..... nobody understands the language they use in hindi ``news`` and nobody cares.... the language people speak is basically ``hinglish`` ...... or ``tamilish`` ........ or ``bengalish`` .... everything is getting anglicized anyway - and for good...

........... what the heck was that !!!!!

.... a couple of days ago as i was flipping through the channels i found out that i had access to some indian channel caled ``aajtv`` ......... normally, i never read the indian press or watch indian movies or eat sambar or do anything that would provide comfort to the enemy, but i was curious and decided to watch it for a few minutes ......... when i tuned in there was some sort of commercial for biscuits with the usual dancing and prancing and sing-alongs which i was able to understand .............. but then the hindi news came along and i was shocked ......... whoa, what the heck is that gibberish !.......... i strained my ears and turned up the volume but i couldn`t understand a word .... every now and then i would catch a familiar urdu word, but they were mainly conjugations, participles and the other uselss words that are used to string stuff together - the rest of it was all greek garbage .........

.......... so the next time someone says ``hindi is like urdu``, i am going to slap them silly ! .............

Zia,
I too am baffled by this incessant Arabisation. Intentionally or not, the perpetrators come off as annoying, smug little holier than thou types whom I want to beat with a pointy umbrella.
Unfortunately it is an unavoidable fact that languages do evolve, taking in various influences from here and there. I am already at my wit`s end with my students who have resorted to using `dat` and `da` instead of `that` and `the` in their RESEARCH PAPERS. But I will fight this dumbing down, if I have to shove a whole set of the complete Oxford English Dictionary down their ingrate little throats, by God I will.
Meanwhile, have a good RamZan.

So your language is under attack?

What language? You mean the one that you speak from your mouth?

Don’t worry – it will never happen – no need to worry – utter mutes are unable to speak! They express themselves amply through other means!

Like rapes.

And lies.

And cheatings.

And denials.

And killings.

And lies.

And cheatings.

And denials.

And braggadocio.

And lies.

And cheatings.

And denials.

And boot-licking.

And lies.

And cheatings.

And denials.

And slurping fauzi urine.

And lies.

And cheatings.

And denials.

An extremely resourceful crowd, this one – it has never been lacking in so many alternate resources.

And judging by the guts of THIS crowd – it never shall cease to speak its TRUE language – the unspoken language – the language of utter submission down to the deepest depths of degradation – for it will never have the balls to speak the only language that survives all time – the language of truth!

Enjoy your chat!

Whether people here wish to admit it or not... neither the Persianisation, nor Arabisation or even Turkification of the Urdu language is as focused and charged as the Sanskritisation of the Hindi Language...

Quite the contrary... if there is an equivalent in the Urdu language... it is the anglicisation which unlike Sanskritisation is not ideologically motivated...

Secondly.... there is as much a trend of Hindi-nisation of Urdu as there is Arabisation... for example... recent additions to Urdu that on finds amongst the ``ahle-Zaban`` in Karachi:

Shooraaat instead of Aghaz
asherwat
vishwas
Mata pita
Ki instead of kay
Pardhan Mantri
Agiya
Aatma

... Culprit no 1: Kyunki Saas bhee kabhee bahu thee...

So please give up this intolerance... why must Arabisation alone be condemned? Why not Hindi-nization as well?

I hate both... but Anglicisation, Persianisation and Turkification I can stand... as Romair has harped on ...

re:#97 by ali_1
Looks like somebody did something bad when Chowk`s Eunuch was incarcerated in Guantanama Bay. He has lost his mind on top of God knows what.
Sridhar

Paak dharti mubarak ho
yay khoobsurat mulk mubarak ho
aap bulund himmat kay nishaan ho
yay Pakistan ki zameen
hamari yaqeen kaa markaz mubarak ho

Paak dharti ka nizam
logoN ki quwwat aur bhaichaara hay
qaum, mulk, sultanat
hamaisha tak chamkay gi
hamari khwahishoN ki munzil mubarak ho

Yay sitara aur hilaali jahnDa
hamari taraqqi or khud-kifalat ka guide hay
Maazi or zabardast haal ka tarjumaan
aur mustaqbil ki jaan
Allah jalaali ki hifazat hay

.
.

kaka would warn painDus (punjabis) like Manto etc not to argue with ahl-e-zubaan (kaka) as to what is Urdu and what is Faarsi..

Re: # 140

Dear Romair:

Here is the discrepancy I noticed in your post.

[The criteria of civilisation that one uses do not point to there being an Indian civilisation. There are various factors that create a civilisation:

- geogrpahically contained area with distinct geographical boundaries
- language
- culture
- religion
- physical features
- history
etc.]

Which I tend to agree, but then suddenly the volley comes when you suggest

[I think people tend to attach religion to civilization. People assume that there is an, ``Indian`` civilization that people should be loyal to (even if they live in Pakistan or Bangladesh), because they equate the common thread of Hinduism with India. When, in fact, religions come and go, through civilizations. They leave a mark and move on.]

So, what is it? What is the role of religion in creating civilization?

Religions come and go? or is it a factor that creates civilization?

Can we make up your mind?

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

romair #140

Read this well written article on ``Why India is a Nation?`` by Sankrant Sanu, whose earlier article criticising Microsoft encarta`s entry on Hindusim made them change it. He is one of the most logical writers I ever read.

http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=4676

Romair mon frere, au contraire, vous avez torte.

Using your logic, there is no French civilization - we need to specify Burgundian, Provence, or Normandie as the bases for civilization in that nation-state. Similarly, there is no German civilization, because we all know there are Saxon, Westphalian, Bavarian, Badden Baden, Bohemian (although it`s now Czech), and Schleswig-Hollsteinian civilizations. So, the only civilization that remain are Roman and Chinese. I won`t mention Pompeii, Ravena, and Siracusa. Let`s not split hairs with Mandarin, Manchu, or even Mongol.

here is a map if Hsuan Tsangs travels to what he thought of as ``india``.

Romair #140, {``The only quality that is common, in the thousands of years history of South Asia is religion. South Asia has currently, and has had, a common majority religion, called Hinduism. However, the area of India, in its 5000 year history has only been one country for a few hundred years (under the Brits and Ashoka). How can an Indian civilization appear, in such a short``}

Romair Bhai,
Now I understand why you are a military genius. :) That is the last refuge of one who fails in every other field. First of all, let`s start correcting your mistakes:

Please add Akbar and Aurangzeb to the list of Brits and Ashoka as rulers who forged most of India into one large country, geographically.

You answered your own question - India has always had a specific geographical boundary (Indus River on the west, Burma on the east, Himalyas to the north, and the triangle poiinting southward. There are several languages in India, but Sanskrit has had the most impact - even on Farsi, Lithuanian, German, Spanish, and English. There is a distinct Indian culture (dress, dance, music, art, sculpture, food, language) allowing for gradual variations associated with distances. Of course, physical features and history are self-explanatory. There is something we all call Indian history (Pakistani history starts in 1947!). If by physical features you mean natural terrain, I miss your point. If you mean people`s features, then obviously you miss the point. There is such a thing as a ``desi-looking`` person, a category that most Pakis fall in. :)

Now, you say that Punjab, Sind, and Bengal are civilizations. Well, let me pick on Punjab, because that is one way to get your goat. I have read the entire half page describing Punjabi civilization. :)

Romair, do you mean Sikh civilization, or Saraiki civilization, or Potohari civilization? Or are these sub-civilizations? Did Lahore always have the same civilization as Panipat? or for that matter, Multan, Bhawalpur, Jullundur, or Amritsar, or Simla? Come on, I think that you are painting with a broad brush. If there is no distinct Indian civilization, there definitely isn`t a Punjabi or Bengali civilization. Chittagong civilizastion is very different from Murshidabad civilization - both being Bengali.

Using your logic, there is also no Greek civilization. Do we include Macedonia? What about Thessaly? How about Crete?

Get real.

Salim_Chauhan #139: ``You are right about being proud of India and its civilization...``

Could you explain exactly what an, ``Indian`` civilisation happens to be? I have asked this question to many people, and no one has been able to provide a satisfactory answer. Is there even such a thing as an Indian civilisation? The criteria of civilisation that one uses do not point to there being an Indian civilisation. There are various factors that create a civilisation:

- geogrpahically contained area with distinct geographical boundaries
- language
- culture
- religion
- physical features
- history
etc.

The only quality that is common, in the thousands of years history of South Asia is religion. South Asia has currently, and has had, a common majority religion, called Hinduism. However, the area of India, in its 5000 year history has only been one country for a few hundred years (under the Brits and Ashoka). How can an Indian civilization appear, in such a short time?

Based on this, where exactly does the, ``Indian`` civilization start and where does it end? And what areas are included in it, from a historic perspective? Had the British left out Bengal and Assam and conquered Iran with the Sub-Continent, would Iran be a part of present-day Indian civilisation.........What if they had successfuly conquered Afghanistan?

Surely, there has to be more to a civilisation, then what the Brits conquered and were able to stuff into their empire.............

In reality, there is no Indian civilization. Nor is there a Pakistani civilization. They are taking form, and may appear in a hundred years or more (longer for India, since it is so much bigger). South Asia has many civilizations - Punjabi, Afghan, Sindhi, Baluchi, Tamil, Bengali etc. This is how South Asia has existed and this is exactly what would have happened, after the Mughal demise had the Brits not involved.

Punjab is a civilization. Bengal is a civilization. As is Sind. India and Pakistan are not civilizations............They are nation-states which contain and divide between them, many civilizations. Hence one can expect an Indian to be proud of the Indian nation-state. But not of an Indian civilization (since there isn`t one). And, obvoiusly, one cannot expect anyone from any part of Pakistan to be proud of the Indian nation-state or civilization. And vice-versa for Indians, vis-a-vis Pakistan..........

At the same time, one can be proud of of one`s civlization. Or one can be ashamed of it. That is really upto the people who occupy those civilizations, at the moment. I live around present-day Taxila, in Islamabad. I can proud of it, or ashamed of it. Or be indifferent to it. It is my choice. After all, it is my home. Why should anyone outside my area have any right to be concerned? Do I care if someone in Bangalore is proud of his city`s history or not? I don`t care.........

I think people tend to attach religion to civilization. People assume that there is an, ``Indian`` civilization that people should be loyal to (even if they live in Pakistan or Bangladesh), because they equate the common thread of Hinduism with India. When, in fact, religions come and go, through civilizations. They leave a mark and move on.

I can, thus, understand if an Indian Punjabi should comment on my loyalties or lack thereof to my Punjabi language and culture. But, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why someone in Bengal, or Tamil Nadu or Ottowa or Rajasthan should try to tell me who I should be loyal to and who I should be proud of. Whether I want to be Arabic, or Irani or French, or Punjabi in my land, is, after all, my business.............Isn`t it......

#137,
Ya Shaikh Kulharee BinAlKhatnawy. :)

You are right about being proud of India and its civilization. Also, you are absolutely right about the Mughals being Indian - except that Sadna wants to exclude Maharaja Aurangzeb.

Re: # 132

Yar Kauray,

Pa jee kithay ray oo lately. `Even modern music in the West is becoming influenced by Bhangra, Dandiya, etc.`` This is not 80s anymore. Bhangra blend in English music ended in early 90z

regards,

haideri

That’s all fine and dandy, but what is annoying is for someone to insinuate that we were Goongay & Dooray (dumb and deaf) before the Arab and Persian conquests. What most of us easily forget that most advances in the Indian sub-continent took place before the invasions and conquests. Our advancement was the reason for these conquests. We had already developed silk while the Arab were still climbing trees. We took in persecuted Zoroastrians and they became Indians, we accepted Jews, we accepted Mongols, we took in everyone who wanted to come, and so on. Everyone who came to Mother India became Indian. It pisses me off that now we would want to be not-Indians? No one in the world would consider Moghals as not Indians. They are known as Indian emperors. Shah Jahan was Indian. It was only the European colonists that destroyed our Indian fabric through their policies, followed by another gang of thugs. And the destruction continues on to date.

Regards

Sir Kulharee Bin Camel al Cow fil Hindi, Esq.

#134, Yes, Kaura, Arabic had influenced (or as you put it polluted) Farsi long before the latter came to India. BTW, the word you use so often, ``harami`` is Arabic and means ``resulting from the forbidden.`` In today`s Arabic, ``harami`` actually means ``thief.``

Behram Sahib #128, {``These days the persians themselves want to get rid of the Arabic imperialism.``}

Sir,
I would say that the good old days of linguistic fascism and racial superiority are long gone. In the 1920s and 1930s, with Hitler`s search for German Aryan roots, Ataturk`s purge of Arabic and Farsi from Turkish, and the Reza Shah`s father`s disdain for Arabic, it had become chic to be ``Pure`` in language AND race. Thus, you have the Hindu supremacists, the Aryan racists, and who knows the Paki TNTs?

Language and race are easily impacted by a single generation. :)

Arabs had already polluted Persian blood before they polluted Indian blood....so many Persian words are Arabic.

The more languages you know, the more powerful you are. The more dialects you speak, the more useful you are. There is nothing evil or inferior about any language. Nor should it be a measurement of one`s patriotism or religiousity.

INDIAN literature, music and other accomplishments are peerless. That is Why western geniuses quote from Upanishads, Gita, Mahabarta.......and sold out concerts are held for classical Indian music. All the religious works are studied and translated. The literary world cherishes them.

Yoga is now a part and parcel of western life.

When the Atom Bomb was tested. The scientist didnt go ``La ee La, La ee La.....`` He quoted from the Gita. Not even his own Torrah or the Bible.


Even modern music in the West is becoming influenced by Bhangra, Dandiya, etc.

Folks,
Language is a means of communication and is a product of interaction or isolation. There is nothiing inherently good or bad about any language. Some languages are more powerful than others (e.g. Arabic, English, and others) because of their vast vocabulary that precludes repetition of words and allows for specificity.

The Arabic that is prevalent in Urdu comes via Iran and therefore was already Persianized before making it to the subcontinent - Ramzan, Aalim (Farsi did not adopt the ``d`` sound for ``z`` or the Arabic ``ayn`` sound from the throat). Not until the 1970s, with the migration of Pakistanis (and Indians) to the Middle East, did Arabic influence the Urdu language directly. Urdu was promoted by the British, starting in 1837, to cut the ties of Muslim India with Iran. Before that, it was used as a lingua franca by the Mughals - Farsi was the court language.

Today, the language used by Bollywood, is what we always called Urdu (or Hindustani). Bollywood, for obvious reasons, did not want to use real Hindi (heavily Sanskirtized) or Pakistan TV Urdu (heavily Arabized). If you can understand Bollywood movies, but not Hindi Samachar, you probably speak good old Urdu (Hindustani). If you can understand Bollywood movies, but cannot understand the PTV Khabrain, you probably speak pre-partitioon Urdu (Hindustani). Urdu has been for a long time the lingua franca of India. I have noticed that even Indian TV Hindi is using Arabic words in news - adalat, mujrim, qatl, mulaqaat, aashiq, mohabbat, qanoon, mausam, vakil, hukumat, etc.

Romair:
You may call it harakiri, suicide or whatever. But when one decides to move to a new location permanently, one must be congnizant of the fact that at least his children, if not he, would eventually go by the dictum ``Ganga gaye tau Ganga Ram, Jamna gaye tau Jamna Dass``, even when the motivation is purely economic and not a dislike of one`s culture.

For groups, changes are generally of an evolutionary and not of an abrupt nature, unless they are the result of a traumatic experience, such as a change of faith. When a people change their script, their dress, their food, their heroes and villains, etc., it is not an evolutionary change but the birth of a new nation, which is what Jinnah (?) said happened when the first Hindu converted to Islam in India. This is why the conversion of a Muslim in India is more comparable to that of the Hare Krishna people in the West who change their food, clothing and appearance upon conversion.

That said, I like Arabian music, too, if you are talking here of the Lebanese/Egyptian kind and not of the Saudi/Kuwait kind.

Re: # 128

Behram Ji, Jazakallah

Re: # 124

Dear Salim_Chauhan:

You are correct about ``Hafiz.`` He was a muslim poet of Shiraz, who lived some 300 years after arabs conquest of Persia. These days the persians themselves want to get rid of the Arabic imperialism.

As for the Indians, muslims or Hindus, no matter how they dice it or slice it, it will eventually revert back to Sanskrit or Avestan (read Zoroastrain, pre-muslim Iran) languages of the Indo-Aryans.

Enough of these insha-allah, subhan-ullah, masha-allah, farhat-ullah, qurban-ullah, baskar-ullah, etc.

Respectfully submitted,

BBA

Re: # 123

Faisal Uncle, There is no bragging here. We are not taking any credit for liberating Bangladesh. All the credit should go to the brave Bengali short and dark Jawans who gave Punjabis a run for the money. Indians only provided moral support. Let’s not go too much into history, and as they say that let’s leave our behind in the past, because most conquerors of India entered India from the north, which makes us Pakis bloody run-overs, which explains why we Pakistanis are kinda Gorays (except for Mohajirs) and that’s why I don’t like that. I would hate to find out that great great great grandma was fooling around with Mohammad bin Qasim. Do you know what that makes me?

While I prefer ``Khuda Hafiz,`` it is definitely NOT secular. This Farsi/Arabic phrase means God is Protector - nothing secular about that. Khuda is Farsi, Hafiz is definitely Arabic. In Turkish, we say Allah Smarladik, another non-secular phrase.

Also, please note that Urdu, and for that matter Bollywood, would be difficult to speak without the use of Arabic words, which came by way of Persia and are thus Persianized. Imagine speaking Urdu (or Bollywood romance/drama, or Bollywood Urdu songs) without Mohabbat, Izhar, Intezaar, Mehboob, Museebat, Aurat, Jazbaat, Qaatil, Maqtool, Adalat, and so on. :)

Re: # 49

Dear Yasser,

Thanks for the National Anthem

[An interesting fact is that the music of the anthem was composed before the lyrics were written.] Do you remember who the composer was?

I wonder if it is time for us to come up with a new National Anthem. Have we accomplished anything that we commit in our National Anthem?

[Pāk sarzamīn kā nizām (پاک سرزمین کا نظام)
Qūwat e ukhūwat e `awām (قوت اخوت عوام)]

Really!

[Rahbar e tarraqqī o kamāl (رہبر ترقی و کمال)] Where are we in leadership?

[Tarjumān e māzī, shān e hal (ترجمان ماضی شان حال)] Was our ``mazi`` in such a despicable state as we are today?

[Sāyah e Khudā Zul Jalāl (سایۂ خدائے ذوالجلال)] This should be completely rewritten to incorporate Arabic.

With regards,

BBA

{``even Abbu has taken to signing off with allah hafiz instead of the possibly pre-Islamic khuda hafiz.``}

Zia Sahib,
I agree with your crticism of this Arabic mania. Just to correct you, sir, the ``hafiz`` in ``khuda hafiz`` clearly indicates that it is NOT pre-Islamic. Hafiz is Arabic and would not have been used by pre-Islamic Persians.

haha....only an indian would brag about winning bangladesh....i mean you wait a 1000 years and then bangladesh.

also btw, big thanks for taking pain-in-the-ass qaum like bengalis off our hands. also fyi, an indian pm reached the same conclusion i.e. india did pak establishment a big favour by creating bdesh. google to find out the name of the pm. shahbash munnay.

Re: # 120

Faisal Yaar, Bhagwan ki Qasm, I use UNO Id. Why would I want to look an idiot by many names, as if one is not enough? And what 1000s of years are you talking about? Hinduism itself is about 3500 year old, what is a 1000 year occupation in a scheme of things? It was a Durga Parwati (also known as Indra Gandhi by Pakistanis) that shoved a big fat danda up your Army’s backside. How did that feel? That one push cleared all the 1000’s of year of conquests of Indians. Whether or not we like it, we are all Indians. Some more than others.

Digressions:

Urdu - Hindi

the effort through fort william (college) to promote indian languages can also be seen and interpreted as an extension of the raj’s classic divide and rule dictum

the bazaar language in the cow-belt of India and Pakistan can (now) be described loosely as hindustani

the effort to palm them off as Hindi and Urdu in an organized fashion is a rather recent phenomenon…and should be seen in the context of rising nationalistic trends in the undivided India…(with Hindi relying on Sanskrit and Urdu on Persian, Arabic and Turkic roots)

in the 1850s the term hindi was applied to what Paksitanis now call Urdu as illustrated by this quote:

Mirza Ghalib wrote in a letter to Alauddin Ahmed Khan Alaai, `` Wallah mera kalam, Hindi ya Farsi kooch meray paas nahiN hay. Aaagay jou kooch haaf`zay maiN maujood thaa woh likh bhaija. Ab jou kooch yaad aagaya, woh likhtaa hooN.``

This is taken from Khatoot-e-Ghalib as compiled by Ghulam Rasool Mehr, published by Shaikh Ghulam Ali & Sons, fourth ed,1968, page 67, lines 5 & 6.

abey, i switched to english once i knew that you were a buzdil indian...and i dont blame you for living in a fantasy world...people from a culture that tolerated 1000 year occupation should act like you do.

btw, i know you are using multiple ids. that chowk-staff allows you to get away should make pretty clear where their sympathies lie.

Re: # 114

Faisal Yaar, you flip flop too much..Urdu English Urdu English… why don’t you just stick to being whatever you are and not worry too much about what part of Punjab I am from? Does it make any difference? Look at what happened to your East Pakistan? Inshallah, one day both Punjabs will unite and be part of either big Bharat Mata, or an independent country called Punjab (with attaching Satan at the end) and will have our own Koomi Taran written in Gurmukhi and sung in our own language.

abey chaltahai, i aint a pathan....however i can arrange a trip for you to peshawer if you are really interested.

#97 ali_1

Great post and I agree with you. There is no point in looking backwards. India is just another country for Pakistanis now. Might as well be treated like just another neighbor.
With the passage of time, the cultural differences would continue to grow.

#50 by SyedAhmed

“Unfortunately I have to disagree with your above assertion. Linguistically – Punjabi is not a distinct language unless you refer to the Gurmukhi script based Punjabi developed by the Sikhs.”

I think that is a loaded statement and probably reflects your inclination to disparage other Pakistani languages. Pretty much all Pakistan languages have Arabic/Persian inspired scripts but they are fully developed with lots of assets. Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashto and Punjabi etc have as rich heritage as urdu or hindi. Linguistically- becomes a vague term when we know that pretty much all north Indian languages are related to each other in many different ways and that is the result of a continued migration within and from outside in India for centuries.

Gurmukhi script is a recent phenomenon. It was there but never really had any patronage until the partition. Changing of script does not change the language drastically. Like with Urdu influence in Pakistan, Punjabi is also suffering under hindi influence in India. It seems to me that like the Punjabi urban middleclass in Pakistan, the Punjabi Urban middleclass in India is abandoning Punjabi fast. The unfortunate reality is that rural areas cannot sustain a language culturally for a long period of time. Eventually, Punjabi would become what Khari boli is in UP.

It seems to me that you take fancy in putting a Marxist interpretation of history forward. That to me is not the only way to explore the vagaries of cultures. It is too black and white and often Marxist construct ignores many other factors in favor of purely economics based frames.

Coming back to Urdu, It developed in the urban center of Northern India and I have no beef with that. But it was never the language of people at large like Hindi is in India and Punjabi is in Pakistan.

When you talk about the Bahamini influence on Urdu, I tend to agree with that as Bahamini deccan did provide Wali Deccani who was probably second only to Amir Khusro in making urdu a language of letters. But and it is a substantial but, Urdu took almost couple of centuries to develop and it was heavily inspired by local Delhi dialects which are now better represented in Hindi. So the Bahamini influence was just a little dot in over all development of the language. I think the Moguls or more precisely the Muslim rule in Delhi was instrumental in development of Urdu language more than any other influence from the provinces that always looked for cultural leadership from Delhi.
Here are a few snippets of the Khari boli from around Delhi and I believe both Urdu and Hindi would claim ownership here.

Char chowdry pewan bathey
Mochan jal gain saari
Bara sahib ka bangla jal giya
Maal loota sarkari

And

Urray yoo khait maan koon barr ree-aay ray
Ghair liyo ray ghair liyo.

And
NaaRR pakar keh deh maroon gaa!

These show the real roots of Urdu and not of any deccani language or not even Farsi and Arabi that were later additions to make the language acceptable to the Mogul courts in Delhi.


#58 by dost-mittar
“And HP, when I hear Sindhi, it seems to me be an admixture of Multani Punjabi and Gujarati, both of which you call as derivatives of Hindustani/Hindi.”

Modern Sindhi is heavily influenced by Sariaki, Urdu, Kutchi, Balochi alongwith Persian and Arabic. A majority in Northern Sindh pretty much speaks a variation of Saraiki. Please remember that Multan was the capital of Sindh for a long time. Southern Sindhi especially the Thar par kar or SE Sindh is influenced by Gujarati and Kutchi. Thari spoken in thar par kar is close to Kutchii and Gujarati. Before the partition, Southern Sindh had enormous religious, economic and cultural contacts with Gujarat and Rajhistan. Northern Sindh relied on Punjab. You see all those influences in the current Sindhi.

PizzriaUNO: Kyun bhaijaan...kaaley hain toh kya hua, dilvaaley hain..

mujhay toh aap bhi pasand ho..goray ho ya kaaley?

achcha, so you are one of the indian punjabi interactors here trying to pass off as a pakistani. chalo i dont blame you...must be painful to be separated forever from the land of forefathers. waisay i gotta tell ya pakistani punjab is an absolutely magical place...esp the salt range illaqa....thanks jinnah.

Re: # 112

Oye Phajya, Punjabi ch kadh kay VikhawaN? Tu vik Khush tay Asi vi Khush.

abey, urdu may bath ker...pata chal ja-ay Ga kon kala hai or kon gora...shahbash munnay.

Re: # 110

Abay - Not Gori, but Sanwali. We are too dark for Goris.

funny to see kaalay dravidians fantasizing about goree women...haha.

Re: # 108

Chalta Phirta. Lahori girls are still stuck in the 90s, they still wear sweet pants and wonderbra and long cardigan coats. By the time you get to the meat, there is no bone. No kidding.

Not only that Kulharee...US has given more Aid ot Pakistan than any other islamic country has. By your rationale, I hope the chicks in lahore would drop the burkha and get on with low riding ``7`` jeans.

abey kulharee, tairay say may sirf urdu may bath karoun Ga. tu zara jaldee say urdu may terjuma mar...chal shahbash munna....jaldee say.

Re: # 104

Faisal, Israel will start giving More Aid to Palestinians (more than all the Arab aid combined). According to your logic, Palestinians should look towards Israelis and not Arabs. Similarly Egypt should draw inspiration from USA.

Your logic dictates that Pakistan is for sale..whoever gives more money, we will lick their ass. Subhanallah for that kinda logic.

Re: # 103

Kaurasach, absolutely and definitely, no doubt about it. If you hear today’s middle-eastern or Persian music, they sound nice, but they are way too simple and are no match for complex Indian music. Here’s one Tabla Tukra from Banaras Gharana:

Din din tete tete, gheghe tete gadi gani dhakate dha ni dha…..

Let’s see if some Arab or Iranian figure it out on their Tabl or Djambe.

here more examples of why pak should lean towards and draw inspiration from islamic countries:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2005/October/subcontinent_October824.xml§ion=subcontinent&col=

Turkey pledges US$150 million for Pakistan quake relief
(AP)

MUZAFFARABAD, Pakistan - Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pledged US$150 million in aid, the biggest donation yet by one nation for Pakistan quake relief, an official said on Friday.

...Erdogan on Friday became the first foreign leader to visit the quake zone. He went to Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan’s part of Kashmir with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20051021&hn=25571

A considerable amount of aid has been collected for the victims of the Pakistan earthquake through the campaigns launched by Turkish officials and non governmental organizations (NGO).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/10/20/EDGU1FAIE71.DTL

No amount of aid is sufficient in such a crisis, and the $50 million pledged by the United States is modest indeed. (Saudi Arabia announced a $133 million donation.)


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=72039&d=21&m=10&y=2005

Saudi TV, Al-Arabiya Plan Telethon for Quake Victims
Mazen Mahdi & Agencies

MANAMA/DUBAI, 21 October 2005 — Al-Arabiya satellite news channel said yesterday it would stage a joint telethon with Saudi Television tomorrow to raise funds for victims of the massive earthquake in Pakistan

There is a Big differnce betwee INFLUENCE and being a harami crow. I see a lot of crows cawing here - claiming that they are like their Arab braathers....

Re: # 100

Dost Mitter Ji, Mardingam in Carnatik is from the same line of percussion (uses similar monochromatic scales) but Tabla’s predecessor is Punjabi Pakhawaj – infect most of Tabla vocab is from Pakhawaj, and most Qaedas (haha never knew I will use a Farsi term to describe Tabla set of Bools) are composed for Pakhawaj.

You are absolutely right, Indian music (North Indian, or Hindustani) has a lot of external influences, perhaps none greater than Persian influence. The reason for that is pretty darn obvious, because Persian Invaders patronized music and dancing. Every friggin court officer and bureaucrat had his own set of bands and dancers. Having said that, with all the influences, it is still “Indian” and very indigenous.

Re: # 100

Below is a link to the wikipedia. I would not like to argue anymore beyond this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabla

regards,

haideri

haideri:

Just FYI, tabla`s predecessor is mrindangam and sitar`s predecessor is Veena. Both these instruments are still in use in the South Indian Carnatic music. There are estimated to be originally over 500 musical instruments in India, of only about 50 survive to date. But Indian classical music is quite adept at adapting foreign influences. Sarod and Sitar have both borrowed from Dilruba, Harmonium - the staple of all Indian music - borrowed from Accordion and a differently tuned violin is now a staple of carnatic music.

Re: # 98

ally, you are absolutely correct. The original ``Sug bash baradare khurd na bash`` means
``it is better to be a dog than a younger brother``

haideri

Ali_1 #97

Other Injun greetings like namashkar and dhanivaad sound so alien and na-paak, the urge is to go take a shower or at least do a wudu right after, pity that I`ve forgotten how to do a wudu now...

I couldn`t stop laughing at that one!!!

Haideri #93

Is that a line out of Tauba`t Nasu?

Does that mean, its better to be a dog than Kulharee? I think the original was `it is better to be a dog than a younger brother`, or something like that. Correct me if i am wrong, i think i may have mixed up my Urdu lit readings with other stuff!!!

Arabization of Urdu is a reality now. Almost all Gulf Seths were educated in Karachi in the 50s and 60s and can speak fluent Urdu. They hired a large number of pakistanis to work for their companies after the oil boom in the 70`s. Number of Pakistanis who have worked in the Gulf runs into millions. A whole generation of Pakistanis have grown up there and some of them have also immigrated to US and Canada....

OTOH, contact with the Injuns in general and Hinjus in particular has been minimal post-partition.

So here in the US, when an Injun Muslim says `Aadab`, I can only respond with ``What the Fkk``? `Aadab` is so gay... almost sounds like an invitation to molestation, if you recall the couplet from Ustaad Imam Din.

Other Injun greetings like namashkar and dhanivaad sound so alien and na-paak, the urge is to go take a shower or at least do a wudu right after, pity that I`ve forgotten how to do a wudu now...

Punjabi Hindus and many sikhs are no better. They TRY to speak this dumb mumble jumble of English and Sanskrit.

This is also a definition of a Harami - an offspring illegitimite or forced relationship. in this case two languages or cultures.

This is one example of a Punjabi story I read in middle school.....

Even if a crow staples or glues a peacock`s feather and tries to immitate the later`s walk, It remains a crow. And it is mauled by the peacock for the strange behavior. Pakis learn this lesson in Arabia real quick.

Re: # 93

That’s so funny. Haha.

Just so you know that I have boycotted both Farsi and Arbi and don’t plan to use it for sometime. I am sure you have boycotted your watermelon as well. Knock knock. Now if you have something really worthwhile to add to this discussion, please let’s hear it, otherwise go to hell. Thank you.

Did you go to khana-a-Furhung for ``Kasb-e-Kamal-eGun ke Aziz-e-Jahan Shavi`` .

Translate this ``Sug bash kulahree na bash`` ;)

haideri

Re: # 90

Mashallaha and Subhanalla and Junbad up your Ayatollah

Haidri, If I know you will get so pissed off that you will start talking in Tamil with me, I would have gone easy on you.

Kasb-e-Kamal-eGun ke Aziz-e-Jahan Shavi

No arguments against countering intolerance... it is a must for any society... however this appeal to Hindu roots exclusively is rather interesting... one tends to see one`s identity as a mixture... this exclusive Hindu roots business is as dangerous as Arabisation I am afraid.

Ultimately tolerance does not differentiate... for example Romair is right... I`d like people to be more anglicised and if not that then Kemalised but that is me... however... as long as I am allowed to say Khuda Hafiz and Ramzan (ironically both persian)... I am afraid I am not going to kick up a fuss over other people saying Allah Hafiz or Ramadan.

As I said ``Zameen Junbad na Junbad Kulharee``

;)

haideri

Re: # 87

And you need to get your head out of your ass. What history do you mean, the one taught in Mecca or Zinzabar? You piece of little Iranian (oops, I mean Persian) shyt, I know more about North Indian Classical Music than your Chacha Mehdi Hassan.

hey kulharee man,

i know a bunch of pakistanis who are into worshiping their hindu origin. tu zara upna naam, or phoon number daal yahan pey taakay woh tum say raabta kerein...shahbash.

Re: # 83

You need to take some history classes.

Zameen Junbad na Junbad Kulharee

haideri

Re: # 84

Manto, the argument is that we should take pride in our Hindu roots. That’s all. Last night at the Asia Society I watched “Muslims or Heretics” an excellent documentary showing how Ahmadis are being persecuted in Bangladesh and how the country that was created as a result of “Bengali Nationalism” is now discovering that it wasn’t the Nationalism anymore, now it is about who is “Muslim” and who his heretic. You see where this desire to impress foreign culture can lead to? Someone down below said that you see more Abayas in Pakistan now, and it wont be too long before women are not allowed to drive, and cannot go out unless accompanied by a male relative. That’s what being argued.

And those who have nothing else going for them are the ones clinging on to the religion or for that matter their “Arabo-Persic” roots. Because that justifies their existence. At least to themselves.

Fortunately, in matters of language, everyone gets a vote.

Kulharee 79

FTR I don`t agree with Urdu as a national/state language policy.

However, only a few posts ago you were paying homage to ``Mother India``. And now you are hiding behind the flimsy argument of ``“local” only to about 6% of the then Pakistani population``...

Now... here is the problem... if indeed Pakistan and Bangladesh are the erring children of the great ``Mother India`` then Bengalis` preference for Arabic over Urdu is quite problematic... and it is justifiable given their hatred for people of Lucknow and UP... then what are we arguing about here?

-YLH

Re: # 80

Haideri, may be he invented your Tabla, but the modern day Tabla is only about 200 year old (Khusra was around in about 11th century). And no need to talk out of your ass until Iftaree you gandoo. Wait for the sunset.

Zia Ahmad #37: ``The whole point here is that the English ``takeover`` IS in fact considered to be a negative, but the Arabic one is so subtle that we don`t even see it.``

Are you sure that the English take-over is considered a, ``negative,`` by the newspaper you have mentioned...........Or by a certain group in the Pakistani society...........? I highly doubt it........It is infact pushed deliberately, much like the Arabic take-over is pushed........Both have ideological motives behind what they support. Take-over of Pakistan culture is a secondary issue, for them.

For example, Friday Times is the most ideologically inclined newspaper I have read in Pakistan. It is the equivalent of the Urdu Takbeer; albeit from the other end. I don`t know of any newspaper, that as a matter of policy pushes so much foreign culture. A typical article has Tinko going to the Valentine`s dance with Bobby`s, wearing Armani, which he bought for Minky`s Halloween party!

What part of this is Pakistani, or Punjabi or Pathan or Sindhi etc.? Obviously none. Which is why I find any article, originally, printed in Friday Times, being critical of pushing foreign cultures, in Pakistan, to be quite hypocritical.......

after the rise in oil prices, arabs now have money coming out of their ears. to put this into perspective, arab trade surplus now is twice that of china. in addition, evidence seems to indicate that arabs this time will spend their fortune wisely unlike after the last oil boom. in investment terms, this has meant that arabs are now investing more in their own infrastructure as well as in countries outside the west including pakistan, where they now control the telecom sector and have stakes in banking and the refining sector and are on the prowl to buy other important assets as they are privatised. pakistanis therefore, who dont like arab influence, are going to have a hard time going forward. i would in fact also advise young pakistani college graduates to brush up on arbee cause that will help them to get high paying jobs.

Re: # 73

Kulharee the Idiot. Seh-Taar was modified by the Great Persian speaking Muslim called Amir Khusroo. He also invented Tubla. You are back to your murlee, drum and according to you “diarrhea causing curry”. .

Zameen Junbad na Junbad Kulharee

haideri

Re: # 75

“local” only to about 6% of the then Pakistani population. There were tons more other “local” languages, with Bengali topping the list.

Dost-mittar #54: In a sense, you are proving the argument I am making. Cultures evolve. And should be allowed to evolve. How can India be, ``mixing`` all these cultures you are mentioning, while anyone else is simply committing harakiri? Either both are committing harikari or both are evolving; albeit in different directions.........

People in Pakistan actually have no problem with foreign influences and languages. Pakistan, itself, is evolving a culture and identity, at the moment. People actually have ideological problems. Some want English (or Turkish) but no Arabic. And vice-versa. Not because of the languages, but because of the ideologies they associate with the countries, currently, speaking these langauges. I find that ridiculous.

``In a sense, I did. When I migrated to Canada, I knew that my children`s culture would not be the same as mine.....-``

According to your definition, you actually committed harakiri. You completely abandoned your culture, your langauge, your heritage etc. You even abandoned your land. It obviously wasn`t good enough for you. Hence, I find your critique, quite odd. However, according to my definition, you moved towards something that appealed to you and gave up something that was less appealing. You cannot be criticized for that. It was your personal choice. Mind you, migration is a much bigger change than simply speaking a different language.......

``However, my situation and that of your ancestor....your ancestors did not move anywhere and still abandoned their culture``

No one in Pakistan has abandoned their culture. They may have abandoned the 100% Hindu culture, but not their own. Only those of us who have migrated outside, have abandoned the, ``Pakistani`` culture.

I can hold my own against anyone from Indian Punjab in my mother tongue of Punjabi. I can hold my own against them in poetry in this language. In the history of this area. In the current movies, music etc. I can hold my own against anyone in India in the history, geography and politics of Kashmir. My father and mother can probably outdo anyone in India, in their knowlege of Punjabi and Kashmiri village life, cultural life, etc.

This is true for most Pakistanis who belong to these provinces. How can you then say they abandoned, ``their culture?`` Their culture is evolving and they are evolving with it. Making deliberate choices on langauges, religion, customs etc. - all of which contribute to culture.

If you really want to see who has given up on Punjabi culture, I would say it is the Sardarjis, since they seem to migrate out of Punjab into other countries, in such large numbers. I believe they have the highest ratio of migration amongst Indians........

Pakistanis are not obligated to stick with what was in the areas of Pakistan, for the past centuries. Indians, themselves, are now wearing spandex and going bare-chested. That seems to be the trend in popular media in India. Let all cultures, langauges, ideas compete for the hearts and minds of the people, and let the people decide........

As I said, the day Arabic music appeals to me more than Punjabi, I will adapt it. And vice-versa. In the same sense that the day Canada appealed to you, more than your own culture, you did not hesitate to adapt it. I, thus, find it odd that you are concerned about Pakistanis abandoning their culture...........

#52
girlie man

Zia Ahmed,
my sentiments exactly. although i see that this is fast becoming a larraee session and therefore my post will be lost in between the jhagras, i had to say i really miss khudahafiz.
my grandfather used to say `Hay Bhagwaan` alot and in my confused teenage i used to feel he`s somehow betraying his faith. time and again he explained to me how bhagwaan and khuda were synonyms. i have since learned how wrong i was.
long live khudahafiz and for all those people who think this Arabization isnt a big deal, IT IS. look around you, our burkhas have been replaced by abayas, we have a sandwich called ``McArabia`` and wahhabis are multiplying by the minute.

Kulharee Perhaps... so you are saying that hatred say for a `local` subcontinental language provided for a justifiable basis for acceptance of defacto Arab Imperialism...

Well well... Why is this entire argument beginning to stink more and more ?

Re: # 72

>>>>Kulharee...

Ironically... and paradoxically... the Bengalis were the ones who were willing to take on the Arabic language as the national language... it was opposed by the West Pakistani politicians and the establishment.<<<<<


Manto, could it be due to the fact that they hated Urdu and vouched for anything that was foreign to all Pakistanis? So that everyone will have equal disadvantage?

Re: # 71

That’s funny, because I thought that Music was Haram in Islam? Oh well, those Persians were Haramis anyway. I agree with you that some instruments, although only a few, were brought from Persian (Seh-Taar (meaning 3-strings) was a Persian instrument that only had 3 strings, it now has 19 – go figure where it was “incubated” - in Mother India. And for your information, North Indian classical music has roots in Vedas – with only a tiny “Persian” influence, and South Indian (Karnatik) has no Persian influence whatsoever.

In terms of culinary influences. Persians will be shitting in their pants after eating a nice hot curry.

Dear Zia-ul-Haq

Please read Ana`s post.

Just because you struggle with a national anthem which even a 5th grader from elite English Speaking American school can translate with relative ease, doesn`t mean the national anthem is in Persian...

What next... is Macbeth in Danish? Or Romeo and Juliet in Latin maybe? What about Julius Caesar?

I am not sure what ``personal attacks`` you refer to. As I see it ... you had a perfectly valid point about Ramzan and Khuda Hafiz... but you ruined it a) either because you didn`t know better b) you are inflicted with the bug of self flagellation which forces you to lose all balance... my guess is b. But don`t worry... you`ll find many like yourself on this website... though... I can`t say it makes for good company.


Kulharee...

Ironically... and paradoxically... the Bengalis were the ones who were willing to take on the Arabic language as the national language... it was opposed by the West Pakistani politicians and the establishment.

Re: # 40


Ranjit the Idiot. Most of the Instruments used today with the classical music originated in the Persia and brought to India by the rulers/invaders. All you guys had was a murlee and a drum. The food served in the indian resturants as indian food isn’t indian either, it is either persian or turkish. A large number of words spoken in the so called ``Hindi`` are either arabic or persian/turkish.


haider a proud Pakistani Persian ;)

isn`t language supposed to a an evolving art?

I have heard that the Pakistanis in their consummate desire to please their Saudi Masters have suggested that the following line in our National Anthem be changed:

Original Version: Saya-e-KHUDA-e Zul Jalal

Proposed New Version : Saya-e-ALLAH-e-Zul Jalal Camel Baba Ganuj, Filafil, Humus and Pita Bread


Do you guys have any idea how stupid it sounds to be trying so painfully to prove closer links to Persian and Arabic? As it is, most of the country doesn’t even consider Urdu as it’s mother tongue, let alone understand Arabic or Farsi. Now imagine how Bengalis must have felt making any sense of this National Anthem when they were part of Pakistan? Now Bangladesh’s NEW anthem sounds so pleasing and soothing “Ama Shonar Bangla” (By Tagore). I wish Pakistan adopted that as our Anthem. I can’t wait for my national anthem to be in my bloody tongue:

Mere Punjab diaN ShannaN UchiaN
UchiaN Makkay diyaN MinaraN tou

Re: # 66
What`s with the personal attacks? We may have an intellectual disagreement, but why do you have to resort to pointless name-calling?

I don`t know any Farsi or Arabic. I do know some Urdu. My only point here is that I still struggle with the national anthem as an adult and I know I`m not the only one. That`s either because (1) my Urdu is lacking, or (2) the anthem isn`t really in Urdu (at any rate, Urdu as most of us know it).

#65

Ditto

PS:

Since we are talking of ``grammar rules`` .. since when did Poetry start following the rules of the prose?

But... please inform me where in persian do you find

``Tu nishan-e-Azm-e-Alee Shan``

``Pak sarzameen KA nizaam``


As for Wikipedia reference... whoever made the change on 19th August ... corrected a fallacy.. somebody is doing a good job cleaning up after pinkos like you who, much like your Mullah brothers, defaecate at will.

i think there is little disagreement that the national anthem is written in urdu (i`m speaking of pak sar zameen shaad baad) and all the words yasser listed are and have been urdu words for a long time. but if you go to the firoz-ul-lughaat (for those who are unaware, that`s one of the urdu dictionaries, if not THE urdu dictionary), you can see that the origin of the words is either farsi, or arabic. but that is what part of urdu is, so masla kya hai?

if my iranian friend was to listen to the lyrics, she would think oh wow that`s farsi, if an `arbi was to listen to it, he would catch arabic words like ``quwwat``. but it is written in our language. my only masla with the qaumi taraana was that we sang it as children on a daily basis, it was at the back of quite a few of our textbooks (the urdu ones), but we all really didn`t have a grasp of what we were singing. i guess that didn`t matter either as long as we knew that ``tu nishaan-e-`azm-e-`aalishan``. :)

language is dynamic. we borrow, and replace words all the time. and i understand how certain realities alter and influence our bolchaal, but i think with urdu (and perhaps farsi. . . if i recall correctly they say zad as well), the change from ``dh`` to ``z`` was made for various linguistic reasons. and we still use zad for all of our other words, don`t we? even if globalization vis-a-vis islam influences how much of the world says ramadhan, i think there is something to be said about reverting back in terms of change, rather than being progressive as far as this word is concerned in urdu.

Dear Zia-ul-Haq

Tu, Ka , Nishan, Markaz, Yaqeen, Azm, alishan, Quwat, Akhuwat, Qaum, Mulk, Sultanat, sayah, Jaan, Isaqbal, manzil...

Which of these are NOT URDU? Or are you saying that Persian language has started borrowing Urdu words ... Why don`t people like you just accept when you`ve done a boo boo?

I see more Urdu words of Arabic and Turkish import than persian...

Re: # 49
Oh and about your Wikipedia reference: Apparently, until 19 August 2005, the national anthem was written in Persian :)

Re: # 46
Dear Mantolives,

Your education must have been a lot better than mine. The qaumi tarana certainly sounds like it`s in a foreign language to me. I can point out English-like words in the French national anthem too, but that doesn`t mean that I get it! So, yes, of course all of us can pick out the Urdu words that you so helpfully compiled. But how many understand the full meaning without having to extrapolate from familiar vocabulary and rules of grammar?

What do other other Urdu-speaking Chowkies think about ``pak sar zameen``?

By the way, do you know where to find Azad`s anthem? Rumor has it that even people with ordinary Urdu skills could understand that one.

Re: # 55

because the convertee despises his own culture/language and nation in favor of foreign culture/language and holy lands. national icons are despised and foreign nationalist are considered as heroes. look at pak itself, the punjabi dominated army has missiles named after afghan kings who had themselves ravaged the punjabi heartland.

and ofcourse few generations down the line, their descendants claim to be arabs/mongols/persians.

DM..

May I suggest for the sake of accuracy... I spoke of Ramzan and Khuda Hafiz Indo-Muslim culture that formed the basis for identity formation in the 1930s which was the bedrock of the two nation theory. Cultures are dynamic... and what must be will be... As for Indian Muslim identity, I don`t know and I don`t care.

Rab Rakha is pretty common... because Punjabi culture is strong and in good health... also common is allah baily...

Re: # 55

No there is nothing wrong in being a convertee.......

My own ancestors converted to Islam.... Maybe three or four generations before...
Ranjit Singh Ruled Punjab..

......After All even during the early Islam... even ARABs converted to Islam....
sso there is nothing wrong in it..

The point I was making... is that suddenly with the new found Gulf Money...or Saudia Money through employement........ many started claiming Their ARAB roots.......
even though one could easily catch their Lies..

Mantolives#44:

I agree with you that Khuda Hafiz and Ramzan (do Iranians also use Ramzan?) are part of Indian Muslim identity. I would go further and say that they are now part of the composite Indian identity, just as ``Rab Raakha`` is a part not only of the Punjabi Muslim but also of Hindu-Sikh Punjabi identity. Indeed, if the current trends continue, these words may disappear from Pakistani identity but would continue to be a part of the composite Indian and Hindu-Sikh Punjabi identity :-)

HP/Syed Ahmad:

You two seem to have done extensive study of the history of Urdu and I have no inclination to cross swords with you, but would like to share some thoughts from a layman`s perspective.

First, Ranjit Singh did not undermine Farsi, which continued to be a court language during his rule. His official chronicler - a Hindu - also wrote his chronicle in Farsi. Farsi continued to be a language not just of Muslims but of the entire bourgeoisie and was taught in schools in Punjab right up to 1947. Indeed, since there was greater literacy among Hindus and Sikhs, I would venture to suggest that there were more Farsi-knowing Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab at the time of the partition than Muslims - every Hindu Patwari knew Farsi but very few could read Hindi.

Secondly, to me, the language spoken in North India and Pakistan is the same, no matter what name you give to it. The major difference is the script. It`s Hindi if you use an Indic script (devnagri) and Urdu if you use an Arabic/Persian script. The more words are used from native languages, such as Punjabi, Brajbhasha, Avadhi, Prakrit, Pali, Sanskrit, etc., the more it is ``Hindi`` and the more Turkish/Arabic/Persian words are used, the more it becomes ``Urdu``. In fact, if Musharraf really wants to follow his role model Ata Turk, he may want to reject Arabic as a script for Urdu and replace it with Latin alphabets.

It is interesting to note that both of you give credit to Amir Khusro for the origin of Urdu language. However, while he may have used Arabic/Persian script, I do not find any Turkish/Arabic/Farsi words in his hindvi compositions (his Farsi compositions are naturally different). In fact, most Pakistanis today would not recognize his compositions like ``Chhaaap tilak sab chheeni rey tau se nainaan lagaaye kay`` as Urdu composition (contrast it with Pakistan`s national anthem).

And HP, when I hear Sindhi, it seems to me be an admixture of Multani Punjabi and Gujarati, both of which you call as derivatives of Hindustani/Hindi.

Other PERSIAN words : Taraqi, Kamal, nizam...

I suppose Ziaulhaq here wouldn`t be happy untill we substituted all these ``Persian`` words with Pure Sanskrit/prakrit vocabulary.

Tahmed,

Please consider the following

Tu, Ka , Nishan, Markaz, Yaqeen, Azm, alishan, Quwat, Akhuwat, Qaum, Mulk, Sultanat, sayah, Jaan, Isaqbal, manzil,


Are these not common Urdu words?... please tell me which ones you don`t know... I see more Urdu words of Arabic import than Persian in them...

A myth is born... a myth will be propagated..

#53 why is ``convertee`` a bad word in india? isnt this another way to oppress minorities in india? you are not a descendant of an englishman, yet you write in english. so why do you think that it is wrong for a descendant of nathu ram untouchable choses to write in farsi?

Romair#36:

As Manto has pointed out, Sir Agha Khan, a prominent leader and a founder of the Muslim League, wanted Arabic to be Pakistan`s national language and his proposal was supported by the majority of Pakistanis at that time, Bengalis. I believe he was also Pakistan`s ambassador to the United Nations.

Moreover, when a ``thaitth`` Punjabi, Hafeez Jullundhri, wrote Pakistan`s national anthem seven years after separation from India, it was virtually in Persian and included not a single word from the vocabulary of native languages of Pakistan - Bengali, Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, Baluchi, etc. As far as I am aware, there was no serious objection by any Pakistani to this imposition of a non-native poem as a national anthem.

``You have not only given up on your cultural surroudings, but your physical surroundings, also. As have I. Have you committed suicide?``

In a sense, I did. When I migrated to Canada, I knew that my children`s culture would not be the same as mine. This may not be true about you, though, as Canada has now officially embraced multiculturalism and in your city of Toronto, the only culture in danger is the white anglo-saxon culture.

However, my situation and that of your ancestors is completely different. I have moved to a place and adapted its culture - that would have been the case if the Turks and Arabs who moved to India had adapted Punjabi language and culture; your ancestors did not move anywhere and still abandoned their culture - they were like the Hare Krishna people in the West who shave their heads and wear dhotis after they convert to the Hindu religion.

You are right about the Indian culture itself changing. It has always done so, the composite Indian culture today is a sangam of several cultures - Indic, Turk, Persian, Arabic, English, etc. Much though I dislike some of the modern Western influences, these are the inevitable results of globalisation taking place today.

it was during Z A Bhutto`s ERA .... that employment in Gulf became an option.
Zia exploited it, .... in Zia`s ERA it was not uncommon to see children wearing traditional ARAB Attire on their birthdays... which became a FAD , especially among the
Gulf- returnees.......

and suddenly a Lot of people started finding their ARAB roots........!!!!

Even if a little proding will reveal ..... their not so distant ancestors to be convertees ...... !! from Hinduism to Islam ......!!

i always thought the national anthem was persian. i am not familiar with differences between urdu and persian grammer, so cant talk about sentence structure. but the words certainly are not everyday spoken urdu. anyway, even if it farsi, so bloody what. we can sing our national anthem in swahili if we want to. and it sounds great - but then, all national anthems bring tears to my eyes. :-)

Romair#36
Dear Romair,

You remind me of Don Quixote. I hope Knight of sad countenence will not be offended.

Dear Zia

I feel it is OK for languages to borrow from other languages. Our languages went on wrong path. Their borrowings are not need based. Their borrowings are based upon the bigotry and narrow minded ness of their speakers.

For example our languages are stagnant. They are not rich enough to satisfy the linguistic needs of a modern man in 21st century.

Anyway an example from Khusro`s Hindi

Na neend naina, Na chain anga
Na aap awain, Na bhehain pattiya.

It is cute.

Arstoo

#43 by HP

“Your claim that “It is ironic that most Pakistanis believe Hindi to be a older language than Urdu.” is a little out of place. “Urdu is not the first language of most of the Pakistanis and they don’t have to know a lot about Urdu`s history.”

Unfortunately I have to disagree with your above assertion. Linguistically – Punjabi is not a distinct language unless you refer to the Gurmukhi script based Punjabi developed by the Sikhs. Consequently if Punjabi is a dialect of Hindustani – it explains two things – the rapid proliferation of Urdu in the petty bourgeois is merely a switching of Hindustani dialects between Punjabi and Urdu. ( actually the wikpedia article that you referred to also attests to the same) . Since roughly 56 % of the population is in the Punjab + 10-12% urban urdu speakers. It constitutes the majority as Hindustani speakers – The Other languages namely Kashmiri, pushtu, Baluchi , Sindhi and Marwari are all distinct languages. ( some claim that marwari – a derivative of Rajasthani is also a dialect of Hindustani) …Moreover Urdu enjoys formal patronage of the ruling establishment and therefore is formally taught in the classrooms in Pakistan. All the more reason that Pakistanis should have a better understanding of their lingua franca.

On the second note I stand corrected ….. Actually Urdu writings originated with Ameer Khusrau in Delhi in the form of Hindvi ((1253-1325 CE),- It gained mass popularity in the Bahmani kingdoms in the Deccan primarily because etc Bahmani’s gave official patronage to Urdu to distinguish their court languages from Persian which was the language of the Delhi Sultanate.

By the Advent of the Mughal Empire ie the first battle of panipat – Urdu was firmly established in the urban petty bourgeois and became a commercial language. Persian was still the official language and the first language of the aristocracy. It was only during Akbar’s period that Urdu gained wider acceptance in the upper echelons of Mughal society.

Actually the center of Urdu learning moved from the Bahmani kingdoms to Lucknow where the Awadhi nawabs ( ie Lucknow) gave it official patronage and finally to Delhi where during the the early 1800’s one notices a rise of Urdu patronage in the official Delhi courts. After the Mutiny – Urdu found refuge in the Muslim kingdoms of Bhopal and Hyderabad wherein official patronage kept it alive until the advent of Aligarh Muslim university and later Urdu prospered in the Muslim states until 1947. Notably even though Urdu had gained widespread popularity – Persian was still taught as an aristocratic language in the upper echelons of Muslim society well into the early part of the 20th century. Urdu was an urban language of the petty bourgeois – not necessarily an aristocratic one as is your assertion.

Interestingly even in the Lahore, which was a Mughal capital during Jehangir’s period, the aristocracy was Persian, Afghan and Turkish- consequently urdu was well established as a commercial language. It was only during the period of the Sikhs where Ranjit Singh decapitated the existing Muslim aristocratic oligarchy and replaced it with Sikh and more compliant rural Muslim counterparts that Gurmukhi Punjabi gained prominence in Lahore. Even then, remnants of the old aristocracy used the Arabic/Persian script to keep their heritage alive – which gradually reasserted itself after the demise of the Sikhs. Iqbal, perhaps one of the more notable Urdu poet of the 20th century did not go to the centers of Urdu in Lucknow or Delhi to gain his mastery of the urdu and Persian languages, his training was indigenous to Lahore.


“Fort Williams college in Calcutta did lots of work in Indian languages.
Both modern Urdu and Hindi owe a lot to the academic interest British had in learning and preserving these two languages.”


The English were interested in the languages not primarily for scholarly research – their policy was also based of maintaining their hold on the erstwhile empire. The Benaras Hindu university and the Aligarh Muslim university started out as segregated institutions for a reason. Actually Bhartendu Harischander;’s official patronage in developing a formalized Hindu language based on Sanskrit grammar was to balance out the hegemony enjoyed by Urdu for the past 500 years. It is this toppling of the apple cart by the British which gives them a paradoxical reputation by their subjugated subjects. Whereas the Muslims of the Punjab hailed the British as enlightened saviors – because the British freed them from the domination of the Sikhs…the Muslims of Bengal and the United Provinces cursed the very same Britishers for indiscriminate repression of the populace.

Zia-ul-Haq...

Are you willfully trying to deceive everyone like your namesake?


Pak sarzamin shad bad
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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``Pāk sarzamīn shād bād`` (پاک سرزمین شاد باد) (``Blessed be the Sacred Land``) is the national anthem of Pakistan. It was adopted in 1954, the same year that Pakistan became a republic. The lyrics are written by the famous Pakistani poet Abul Asar Hafeez Jalandhari, and the music composed by Ahmed G. Chagla. An interesting fact is that the music of the anthem was composed before the lyrics were written.

The anthem is written in the Urdu language.

[edit]
Lyrics
Pāk sarzamīn shād bād (پاک سرزمین شاد باد)
Kishwar e hasīn shād bād (كشور حسين شاد باد)
Tū nishāne `azm e `ālīshān (تو نشان عزم عالیشان)
`Arz e Pākistān (ارض پاکستان)
Markaz e yaqïn shād bād (مرکز یقین شاد باد)
Pāk sarzamīn kā nizām (پاک سرزمین کا نظام)
Qūwat e ukhūwat e `awām (قوت اخوت عوام)
Qaum, mulk, sultanat (قوم ملک سلطنت)
Pā-inda tābinda bād (پائندہ تابنندہ باد)
Shād bād manzil e murād (شاد باد منزل مراد)
Parcham e sitāra o hilāl (پرچم ستارہ و ہلال)
Rahbar e tarraqqī o kamāl (رہبر ترقی و کمال)
Tarjumān e māzī, shān e hal (ترجمان ماضی شان حال)
Jān e istiqbāl (جان استقبال)
Sāyah e Khudā Zul Jalāl (سایۂ خدائے ذوالجلال)
[edit]
English Translation
Blessed be the Sacred land,
Happy be bounteous realm
Symbol of high resolve
Land of Pakistan
Blessed be thou citadel of faith
The Order of this Scared Land
Is the might of the brotherhood of the people
May the nation, the country, and the State
Shine in glory everlasting
Blessed be the goal of our ambition
This flag of the Cresent and the Star
Leads the way to progress and perfection
Interpreter of our past
glory of our present
Inspiration of our future
Symbol of Almighty`s protection

Ana..

The first one ... written by the famous Urdu Poet Jagganath Azad... in service from 1947 onwards... till the mid 50s..

pakistan has two national anthems?! what`s the other one?

PS to Zia-ul-Haq..

Come to think of it... I must withdraw my advance praise for your article... not in the least bit influenced by the Injuns giving it blanket approval.


1-Neither of Pakistan`s two national anthems is in Persian. If you can`t understand the current one, it must be your weakness in Urdu...

2- It was the current Agha Khan`s grand dad.. Agha Khan III who suggested Arabic as the national language... a suggestion that was supported by Bengalis and opposed by West Pakistani Establishment.



I hate to admit it but Romair is actually making a lot of sense on this one.

#44 by Mantolives


DM has his own soft-Hinduvta agenda, as pointed out by Hindvi several times, to peddle. So I wouldn’t worry too much about his posts and knowledge or the lack of it on subject.

Since Pakistan and the ME are getting closer in more than one way-religion, economics etc-, Arabic influence would certainly increase and there is no harm in it. Many Arabs in Dubai also have adequate knowledge of Urdu as they either got education in Pakistan or do business with Pakistani.

Pakistan imo, is more a part of ME now than of Indian Subcontinent. Pakistan emotional connections with India have weakened over the years and Pakistani links with the ME have increased manifold. A whole generation of Pakistanis middleclass has grown up in the Middle East and they are influenced by Arabic.

The problem is that arab-isation of common Urdu words is being pushed from a religious pov and to help the mullah agenda and that is something that needs to be resisted.

Loads and Loads have been written about this... but it is a good reminder... do you still write for good ol` friday times?

Dost Mittar

Its not as simple as that... Ramzan and Khuda Hafiz (just like Urdu) were part of the Indo-Muslim identity (the basis of tnt) that was widely used or hailed as part of the identity formation in the subcontinent in the 1930s and the 1940s... Giving up Ramzan and Khuda Hafiz are akin to giving up the Urdu language in favor of Arabic... so I don`t think you can trace this current trend to Pakistan`s creation per se.

We must recognise that the proliferation of Allah Hafiz and Ramadan is actually because of a new global Muslim identity forged by globalisation in form of the opening up of media and Internet.

What choice does one have when BBC Prime blasts ``Ramadan Kareem`` on its screen?

#30 by dharma
Dharma Babu, You appear to be a very smart person like the rest of the Indians on this web site and obviously you know Sanskrit and Indian culture very well too. I was jut wondering, with such immense knowledge and after such a boorish lecture to Pakistanis, you ended up cutting and pasting about Panini from wikipedia; why?
Btw, how many Pakistanis do you know well enough to know about their knowledge of Indian culture and history?


#32 by SyedAhmed

Your claim that “It is ironic that most Pakistanis believe Hindi to be a older language than Urdu.” is a little out of place. Urdu is not the first language of most of the Pakistanis and they don’t have to know a lot about Urdu`s history.

I found some inconsistencies in your story about Urdu.

You wrote, ``Urdu on the other hand emerged in the Muslim Bahmani kingdoms of Deccan” Bahmini Dynasty -1350–1680

Next you wrote, “Urdu saw its emergence as a formal language during the period of Ameer Khusro Dehlavi” Abul Hasan Yaminuddin Khusro (1253-1325 CE),

I think you got your dates wrong as Khusro died in 1325 and Bahnini Kingdom started in 1350. If Urdu started in Deccan then how Khusro turned it into a formal language almost 50 to75 years before Bahmanis?

Fort Williams college in Calcutta did lots of work in Indian languages.
Both modern Urdu and Hindi owe a lot to the academic interest British had in learning and perserving these two languages.

Here is little history of Urdu, Hindi and Hindustani for clearing up other inconsistencies in your post.

Abul Hasan Yaminuddin Khusro (1253-1325 CE),
http://www.alif-india.com/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani

Hindustani is a term used by linguists to describe a closely related series of languages or dialects stretching across the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent. The term encompasses standardized dialects in the form of the official languages Hindi and Urdu, as well as numerous nonstandard dialects that exist as vernaculars throughout the region.

``Hindi``
Standard Hindi, the official language of India, is based on the Khariboli dialect of the Delhi region and differs from Urdu in that it is usually written in the indigenous Devanagari script of India.

``Urdu``

The language began as the common speech of soldiers serving Mughal lords. The term became transferred to the court language of the Mughal aristocracy, whose dialect was based on the upper-class dialect of Delhi. Urdu`s historical development was centered on the Urdu poets of the Mughal courts of north Indian metropolises such as Delhi

While grammatically, Urdu and Hindi are considered dialects of a single language (or diasystem), they differ (in formal tongue) vastly in vocabulary; wherein Urdu draws heavily on Persian and Arabic and Hindi on Sanskrit and to a lesser extent Prakrit.

Thanks.

Great article. Dry humour that is so very relatable. Well done, Zia.

nice article.

urdu (ordu) is a turkish word which means camp (usually used for an army camp) - it was the unit of the turkish army - as the turks consolidated their rule in the indian subcontinent they started recruiting locals into their army - the officers spoke turkish (turkish was the official court language of the moghuls until jehangir who changed it to persian) and the troops spoke various other languages and therefore the need for a common language - that`s how urdu evolved (language of the army) - it is however hard to imagine that something similar to udru did`nt exist before the arrival of turks.

urdu is an indo-aryan language - the grammar is based on sanskrit - take out the persian/arabic/turkish words out of urdu and one is left with hindi.

khuda hafiz is persian - but sounds a whole lot better than allah hafiz - and the use of ramadhan instead of ramzan is just creepy - what next? bakistan instead of pakistan (as tahmed puts it)?

re: 30

panini was from mardan - chanakya was a professor at taxila - some say that chandragupta was from chakwal but not sure about that one.

rigveda was written in what is now pakistan.

Re:dharma

I can never understand why we Indians keep lamenting about Pakistani attitudes towards its pre-Islamic roots. I say, to hell with it. The entire heritage of the subcontinent belongs to us Indians. We are the custodians of the language, culture and civilization of the entire subcontinent. Whether it is Sanskrit, Classical Music, Yoga, Vedas, you name it, it belongs to us Indians. We Indians are a civilized and cultured people and we alone are the heirs to that glorious civilization.

The Pakistanis are nothing more than illegitimate mongrels. They dont respect themselves. Therefore, no one respects them either. The Pakistanis hate their own language, own culture, own food habits, since everything reminds them of hindus. This hatred becomes extreme, because they are unable to give up their own language, culture or food habits. Pakistanis have tried to give up everything and become Islamic. It has failed. This failure has resulted in a level of self-loathing that is unmatched in this world. This self-loathing gets manifested in their lack of any kind of cultural output or contribution in the past 50 years. Hence Pakistan is basically a dead country as far as culture or civilization is concerned.

I have a lot of respect for Persian civilization and even Arabic civilization, since they have some depth to them. The Pakistanis have no depth since they reject their own roots. No wonder the world has such a poor opinion about Pakistanis.

and before i get pelted with words, that was meant to be a horrible translation and take on ``father forgive them because they know not what they do.`` emphasis on ``meant to be.``

romair tau hamesha baat ka ``batangar`` banata hai. buksh dau ussko kyooNke voh jaanta nahiN voh kya karta hai.

Re: # 35
Dude, Romair, the only ``batangar`` here is the one you`re making.

1. No one, certainly not the Friday Times, is claiming that this is a ``huge problem.``


2. The whole point here is that the English ``takeover`` IS in fact considered to be a negative, but the Arabic one is so subtle that we don`t even see it.


3. Lighten up. Have some Mecca Cola or something.

Dost-mittar #10: ``most Muslims wanted a Pakistan because they wanted to be closer to their Islamic roots.``

This is incorrect. If this theory was correct then Pakistanis would never migrate from Pakistan to USA, Canada etc.

Most Muslims wanted Pakistan, because they felt they would be unsafe in India, as a minority. Much like most Sikhs wanted Punjab broken into East and West Punjab, because they felt they would be unsafe in Pakistan. Not because they wanted to be closer to their Sikh roots (most of which they left behind in West Punjab). This is highlighted by the fact that the Pakistan movement was strongest in areas where they were in a minority, or at even levels (UP, Bengal). And weaker in other areas. It did not have a consistent popularity, which is what it would have had, had it just been centered around practicing Islam........

``This is indeed the root cause. Your founding fathers happily committed cultural suicide when they converted to Islam. ``

This is not correct either. People never commit cultural suicide. They make a decision to follow some culture. You, yourself, have done that by migrating to Canada. In fact, you have gone one step furthur. You have not only given up on your cultural surroudings, but your physical surroundings, also. As have I. Have you committed suicide?

Why have you given up on one (India) to adapt another (Canada)?

Becuase you (and I) found something more attractive somewhere else. It is a deliberate act that you find beneficial. Not suicide. Cultures change. Nothing wrong with that. Your kids will not have an Indian culture, because of your actions. You can, at best, give them a little. But will they return to India? In fact, India, itself, seems to be Westernising like anything, culturally. Every new song and movie I see has girls dressed in spandex with their g-strings showing, dancing to tunes, wearing American phrases. These certainly aren`t traditional Hindu or Indian values. Is it cultural suicide? No. It is a deliberate cultural change........

There is nothing wrong with letting cultures evolve in any direction they want. I would love to learn Arabic. I am hooked on Arabic music. Arabic singers have, by far, the best vocals of anyone I have heard. I have heard Arabic is one of the most poetic languages in the world.

At the same time, I spend a lot of time studying Punjabi.......If one day, I enjoy Arabic music more than Punjabi, I will give up on Punjabi. If I enjoy Punjabi music more than Arabic, I will do the opposite. Nothing wrong with either.....

Cultures should be allowed to fight a free battle. Cultures, peoples, finances and languages should be allowed to flow freely, and people should go with what they like. It is wrong to try to push people to stick with their historical or religious backgrounds.......Pakistanis and everyone else should be allowed to go towards Arabic, English, Sansakrit, Punjabi etc. Anything they want. Much like you and I sit in Canada, and should not be forced to remain in Pakistan or India, if we don`t want..........

Baat ka batangar........

``Historically, the language, though indigenous to India, borrows heavily from Farsi and Arabic.``

I thought Urdu had a lot from Turkish.......

I think all such articles are based on the ideological belief of the author or the newspaper the author(s) write for. Since this is a Friday Times article, it concentrates on Arabic. Had it been its equivalently ideological newspaper in Urdu, perhaps it would have concentrated on some other language, like Turkish or English.

Is the actual problem, the author has, the mixing of one language with another? Or is the problem with the society of Arabia, and their specific language? If Pakistanis started using Turkish words, would that be equally bad? The biggest foreign language that is, ``taking over`` South Asia is English. Does that bother anyone?

Urdu, itself is the biggest, ``replacer`` of languages in South Asia. Within Pakistan, it will have spelled the death of Punjabi (and other langauges) in a few generations. If we really want to stick with the local language, shouldn`t we move to Punjabi etc.?

This is the problem with newspapers like Friday Times and other ideolgical newspapers (including those in Urdu): they take insignificant little things, skew them based on their own political ideologies and then present them as huge problems for Pakistan......When, in fact, they are just using them as a means to push a political agenda.........

One cannot have a double-standard on the influence of foreign cultures and langauges in Pakistan. If its ok to say, ``Wassup,`` and cool to say, ``Hey dude`` as Friday Times would have us believe, then it should be ok to say Ramadhan, Ramzan, Ramzi, Rrrramaddhazzn, or anything else one wants..........

Let those who say Ramadhan and those who say, ``Wassup`` fight it out in a fair fight, and see who wins.........Instead of trying to put down one or the other..........

#33 nor is arabic one language, but a large number of language.

First, there is Modern Standard Arabic that only the literate understand (and there is a large percentage of illiterate arabs to whom it is as much greek as it is to the vast majority of pakistanis who read the Quran in arabic on the assumption that just reading like this is enough to earn them ``sawab`` - another pakistani superstition that violates common sense and indeed the Quran itself, which specifically refers to itself as the Arabic Quran). MSA is an approximation of Classical Arabic in which the Quran is written.

Second there is spoken Arabic, which is different from MSA and different across countries - egyptian arabic, syrian arabic, moroccan arabic and so on. Regardless of what the arab nationalists want, no one is switching to a common Arabic. except perhaps our allah hafiz types.

Zia

Well written. I will not however call it liguistic imperialism. This tilt towards Arabic was made by Zia only as one of the `Shoshaas` to cover his illegitimacy. Paradoxically, whereas they could change `Khuda hafiz` and `Hayaakallah or Aadab` to `Allah hafiz` and `Assalamo-Alaeikum`, respectively, they could not change `Namaz` to `Salat` and `Rozah` to `Som`, and, of cource, `Pakistan` to `Bakwastan`. It all looks so bizarre that it hardly desreves any serious study, inshallah, mashaallah.

It is ironic that most Pakistanis believe Hindi to be a older language than Urdu. The Local dialect often called Hindustani or khadiboli has been in existence for a millennium or more. It was not a formal language but a colloquial one. It had neither a written script nor formal grammar. Hindustani eventually had multiple dialects – Brajbhasha ( spoken around Delhi ), Awadhi spoken in southern UP and Bihar and Punjabi spoken in the North Eastern part of the country. Punjabi in the Eastern provinces was formalized into a language using the the Gurmukhi script by the Sikhs. Western Punjabi remained colloquial with a Arabic/Urdu script.

Urdu on the other hand emerged in the Muslim Bahmani kingdoms of Deccan, as language of the army ( the word Urdu is the Turkish word for Army) – in order to form a more cohesive form of communication between the Turks, Afghans, Persians and other assorted nationalities that formed the bulk of their armies. Urdu saw its emergence as a formal language during the period of Ameer Khusro Dehlavi – the renowned poet and other literati of the period. He wrote his couplets in a language he called Hindvi – in a Persian script which formed the basis of the urdu language. It was still second only to Persian which was the official language of the land, Nonetheless it gained a mass following particularly among the urban bourgeois from Lahore to Patna. Subsequent to the British Annexation of India Urdu became synonymous with urban Muslims of India and spread from Madras to Peshawar.


Formal Hindi as we know it became a language fairly recently in the late 19th century wherein Hindustani was formalized into Hindi utilizing the Devanagari script with heavy derivations from Sanskrit. It was actually developed under British Patronage of the Fort William College Calcutta in collaboration with a Hindu scholar named Bhartendu Harishchander.

The two nation schism ultimately came about in the late 1890’s when the British Govt decided to replace Persian as the second official language with Hindi. This caused dissention among the Muslims and led two scholars from Aligarh Mohsin ul Mulk and Viqar ul Mulk to form the Muslim League under the patronage of the Nawab of Dacca to promote Urdu as an alternative to Hindi as the second official language. The rest we know as history….

I agree with the Quami tarana thing..when i first went to pakistan..i was finding it hard to learn Urdu, but when hit with that pak Sur Zameen.... i was completley lost!..i just used to lip sync in Assembly..and now after studyin Farsi at college level..just for the heck of it (mum studied it so wanted one of us girls to study it too..)..well i STILL didnt get the Anthem...but now iv come to realize its not an issue in pk...because no one can be bothered with writing a new one...all we ever do is Stand up to and bow our head in the end..does anyone take it seriously...having said that i HATE the English Anthem even more...God Save our Bloody Queen...hey we all want her dead..so Prince William can take over..
Anyway Great article ....My Daddi Ammi is into Proper Urdu Talafuz..so its hard to change from Khuda Hafiz to Allah hafiz in our household.

it is sad that most pakistanis dont even know panini, the greatest grammarian the world ever produced who lived 2500 years back in what is now modern day pakistan.

from wikipedia:
Pâṇini`s grammar of Sanskrit is highly systematised and technical. Inherent in its analytic approach are the concepts of the phoneme, the morpheme and the root, only recognized by Western linguists some two millennia later. His rules have a reputation of perfection — that is, they perfectly describe the Sanskrit morphology, and regarded as so clear that computer scientists have made use of them to teach computers to parse Sanskrit. He uses metarules, transformations, and recursion. In this sense he may be considered the father of computing machines. The Backus-Naur Form or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages have significant similarities to Pâṇini`s grammar rules.

If he were an arabic scholor, pakis would be singing paeans to him. It is sad that while knowledge by itself is worshipped by hindus as god, muslims seem to have halal and haram filters applied to it. If the knowledge is from non arabic source it is not halal.

Re: # 27

Actually, a prof in linguistics made some distinctions between each. One of his comments was that Hindi was ideologically bound...let me try and remember the gist of it...

#25 ``let the two duke it out ``

Kind of like Godzilla vs. Mothra the Giant Moth??

#24 by Saminasha on October 20, 2005 12:06pm PT
“Isn`t there a difference between Hindi, Hindustani, and Urdu?”

My 2 cents...Some Indian probably will have more precise info on this.

Hindustani was the political name of Hindi. Urdu is just a variation of Hindi with a huge dose of Arabic and Farsi in it. Urdu is primarily spoken by Muslims living in central Indian cities. Muslims living in the rural areas of UP, Bihar, and MP speak different local dialects that are just variations of Hindi or Urdu but mostly Hindi.

Of course, Urdu is widely spoken in Pakistan.

Has there been any reverse influence or is it only one way? Have the native Gulf Arabs adopted any Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi into their daily baat-cheet?

Shukran for reading, everybody! Don`t take this too seriously though.

Down with allah - long live khuda! (On second thought, let the two duke it out themselves - what do I care?)

Isn`t there a difference between Hindi, Hindustani, and Urdu?

#22 by muqaddam

``Peshawar proper all speak and understand Hindi``

It was not Hindi, he must have meant Hindcko. It is a variation of Punjabi with lots of Pashto in it. A good number of people in Peshawar speak this language. Some time ago they were in majority in Peshawar. Don’t know if it is still true. Demographics are changing fast in that area.
Nobody speaks and understands Hindi in Peshawar unless it is presented as urdu which is commonly understood and spoken too.

language is all about wanting to communicate. Recently on a visit to Dubai, took a cab. The driver appeared to be from the subcontinent ( arent they all?). I asked him where did he come from, he said Peshawar. Got talking to him about languages. was pleasantly surprised to hear from him that in Peshawar proper all speak and understand Hindi( he did not mention Urdu), but in the rural area it was generally pushtun. Quite interesting I thought.

My sentiments exactly Zia,

This is how our culture has progressed and obviously language gets affected, what is worse than Arabic is the English words that are used without trying to even slightly Urdufy them, or where we have perfetcly fine Urdu words they use English in its place.

Example

Uss waqt mujhey bohat depreshan (depression) hua tha, instead of
Uss waqt mei.n bohat ghamgeen thi/a (i think thats the right word!)

And when you write them in Urdu they look even more abhorent and unnatural, all you see is the small toya of all the Daal`s and Tey`s everywhere. Although its hard for a non Urdu reader to think that Urdu can look unappealing due to its pretty script, to an Urdu reader the sight of all those hard letters together looks very uncomfortable and unnatural, as they would in the Devanagri script to Hindi readers, even tho to non Devanagri readers it would look pretty.

I`m going to Pakistan next week and want to make a point of saying Khuda Hafiz. Just yestersay i spoke to my youngest Massi and even she said Allah Hafiz, it seemed so unnatural and jarred, after a proper Punjabi conversation, i just replied `Rabb taunu rakhey massi ji`

When Ramzaan started two of my friends and myself where at my house in the evening when friend X announced he had to go, friend Y and myself are not fasting, so naturally friend Y asked where friend X (a practising Muslim and die hard Pakistani) was going, so to freak out friend X i replied

`Bhaiya aap ko nahii pata! Vrato key iss mahiney mei.n Bhai X Maha Allah ki pooja path kelye her shaam maseetva jaatey hai.n`

friend X looked at us blankly (tho he knows we love to wind him up) but friend Y and myself were in stitches.

Aagya farmaey

Ishvar Hafiz

Re: # 19

Mr. Hindvi, I think Mr. Faisaluno is more interested in what the balls are attached to.

But Ya Shiekh, how is this news relevant to Arabization of the Urdu language?

Mr Faisaluno here is what ur friends with balls have done:


Afghan rebels attack school after election results announcement

16:20 2005-10-19
Gunmen shot dead a headmaster in front of students and killed a school guard and dumped his body in a stream in separate attacks on schools in southern Afghanistan, unusual targets in a region wracked by rebel violence, officials said Wednesday. Insurgents also shot and killed a district government chief as he prayed in a mosque, they said.

In the capital, meanwhile, officials released more results from last month`s legislative elections. Among the new winners was a notorious warlord accused of war crimes, a former journalist for British radio and a young woman famed for her beauty, the AP reports.

It was not immediately clear what motivated the attacks on the schools. Though the Taliban oppose Afghans sending their children to secular government schools instead of Islamic boarding schools, known as madrases, there has been little violence directed at teachers.

Two assailants rode on a motorbike up to Khanjakak High School in Panjwayi district and gunned down the headmaster, Abdul Ali, Interior Ministry spokesman Yousuf Stanekzai said. The gunmen fled, and police launched a manhunt.

The school was full of students at the time of the shooting, but no one else was hurt, officials said.

Hours later, gunmen attacked a nearby primary school and shot dead a guard before throwing his body in a stream, said provincial education director Hayadullah Rafiui.

The official who was killed as he prayed was the government head in Panjwayi district, said Kandahar Gov. Asadullah Khalid. The official had recently denounced the rebels and was the latest prominent anti-Taliban figure shot dead in a spate of attacks.

There were hopes that the spike in violence would ease after the Sept. 18 elections, but there has been no let up. The polls were the last formal step toward democracy for Afghanistan on a path laid out after the Taliban was ousted in 2001.

Election organizers have been releasing results for each province as they are ready, and on Wednesday announced they had finished the count for the capital Kabul and were preparing for them to be certified.

``We will finish counting all the provinces by this weekend ... and will have all the results certified by the end of the month,`` said Aleem Siddique, a spokesman for the joint U.N.-Afghan election organizers.

Among the provisional winners in Kabul was Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, a powerful militia leader accused of war crimes by New York-based Human Rights Watch, which alleged that his fighters killed civilians, raped women and plundered at will during Afghanistan`s civil war

Zia: if it is any consolation, i heard a iranian woman who visited iran recently complain that farsi is being taken over by arab words. I am waiting for the day when the first mullah starts calling Pakistan Bakistan (in imitation of the linguistically challenged arbies). I didnt realize that ina lilah had now replaced khuda hafiz. i thought replacing the perfectly fine khuda hafiz with the mullah-contrived allah hafiz was bad enough.

Zia:

…written with passion and concern…. savored the reading…chuckled at many a places…despite rumours Urdu has shown a resiliency and adaptablity…as a bhasha am sure it will survive

khuda hafez

t

ps: good point about the quomi tarana with its overload of farsi tarakeebs, farsi masadirs…that in true pakistani fashion we rattafy… arey bhai agar qur’ani aayats ko hum rutt rutt ker bagahair maani kay paRhtay haiN tou quomi tarana cheh maani darud?

So, it seems that in the linguistic food chain of eat or be eaten, Arabic devours Urdu which has already devoured and de-supported Punjabi in West Punjab. People shouldn`t start beating their chests and wailing the end of the world just because a language borrows words from another.

In a hundred years time, regional languages will become defunct anyway giving way to 3 or 4 major global languages, two of which it seem will be English and Mandarin given current geo-economic realities.

Kulharee, you are in for a huge disappointment because in the coming decades as the flow of people and cultures increase, arabs in Saudi will be breaking bread at iftar parties during Lord Ram-zaan`s fast by reciting the ganesh mantra followed by a reading from the gospel of John and a pre-appetizer toast to Buddha. os you can take the chicken tikka masala and Halalify it all you want but it won`t stop the love among the people of this world.

Chalta-allah ka banda-hai

Zia,
nice writing.
`the month of big appetites and short tempers is called Ramzan. What country are we from anyway? `
I agree with you.
adab, mashalla, inshalla and Allah hafaiz are sweet words.we must use our own words instead of bye bye.

Re: # 12

Chaltahi, just as I have always maintained that some influences are fine but some are not. E.g., the new re-mixes of old Hindi songs is a sin deserving of capital punishment, or at least penal amputation. Linguistic influence is no more than Tukey Ham, Halal Chinese, or Chicken Tikka Burritos. I can live with that.

Namasalam and Shalom Siriakal, and Wah Mohammad da Khalsa and Wah Moses di Fateh

Ganeesh Rahim Buttafuco

This is just silly. Languages get influenced according to geopolitical realities all the time. Should the English speaking world do away with words like Jungle or mantra, because they have indic roots?

Krishna Hafiz everyone...

i think some pakistanis can also reclaim urdu`s hybrid status by ceasing this ridiculous ideologically, politically motivated bakwaas that hindi is not part of our language when a good part of our structure is centered around indic languages, and hindi words are part of our rich lexicon as well.

Zia:

I used to think the same way as you do but I have now changed my mind. Regardless of what Jinnah wanted, most Muslims wanted a Pakistan because they wanted to be closer to their Islamic roots. So, if they feel more Muslim using Allah instead of Khuda, or saying Ramadhan instead of Ramzan, or even Eid instead of Id, more power to them.

``The founding fathers, cognizant of this fact, looked west—to Persia and Arabia—for the vocabulary of culture and erudition.``

This is indeed the root cause. Your founding fathers happily committed cultural suicide when they converted to Islam. While their forefathers looked to Sanskrit and Kalidas for the vocabulary of ``culture and erudition``, your forefahers rejected them for the culture and language of the conquerors of the land for such erudition and culture, much like the native Americans did when they converted to christianity.

BTW it is interesting how some of the Arabisation has become so much a part that it is not even considered as as such any longer. For example, the chances are that your Abu or his father called his father ``Abbaji`` and not ``Abu``.

having studied farsi, i can understand our ``qaumi taraana`` just a little better, but no one ever really explained it to us as kids. and we had to sing it in daily assembly from class III (the third grade) onwards. it was like little kids having to recite the pledge of allegiance. . . what the heck?!

even if the accident of history does make the urdu language in pakistan rife with paradox, linguistically urdu went through a few changes to set itself off just a little bit from both farsi and `arbi. we say zad instead of the dad of arabic and the ``hay`` following the ``vau`` is pronounced as ``ah`` not ``eh``, as it is in farsi, and the meaning of words from farsi at least that i know of has changed over time as well. there shouldn`t be any reason really for us not to say ramzaan rather than ramadan. as a matter of fact growing up when i did in lahore, i never heard ramzaan pronounced as ramadan. not in the media, not in school, not among our friends. so it is still very jarring to me, to hear fellow desis speaking in urdu and saying ramadan instead of ramzaan. ye kya baghaavat hai?!

of course someone might say ramadan ramzaan what`s the difference, all that matters is being good insaans!!! you say tomayto and i say tomaato. i say urdu should reclaim its place as the hybrid language it is, and leave the dad with the arabic language (and its speakers!).

nice writing zia.

Zia Sahib, aap apna KhaRa RakhaiN (i.e, “keep it up” in Urdu). I think the problem in Pakistan is not, per say, the linguistic imperialism but people who make a mole out of a mountain. Every single person in the Netherlands speaks at least 3 languages, 4 in Switzerland, and in India it is at least 3 in major metropolis. I don’t see anything wrong if a few Gulfies have brought some Arab influence with them and introduced that into Pakistani culture. I hear more “Holy Shyt” or “Jesus Fking Christ” in Lahore than I do in New York. “Man” has become mot-de-commencement for any sentence. Ya Habibi, Urdu as it is, is an amalgam of various roots – Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Indo-European, so what if it is now open to some Semitic influence?

The best I heard was at a KFC in Lahore: The cashier talking to a female customer: “Muhtarma, Ya app sirf Breast or ya Legs lay sakti haiN, doono Nahi”. (Translation: M’aam, one can only have either breasts or legs, not both). It was so funny because the female customer was big chested but had flat butt and no legs.

Look at the bright side (Tarf-ul-Noor) that Pakistanis are coming out of their shell (al-Khoul).

Jazak Allah.

man, you gotta be a heck of a loser to worry about things such as these. and as for the qaumi tarana, i actually happen to like it. and i bet my bottom dollar that the author would be pelted with timaters were he to stand outside the badshahi mosque after juma and suggest that we should change our qaumi tarana cause it sucks. no chance of this happening cause we all know that people who write for the friday times dont have any balls.

Re: # 3
//.....Pakistan was carved out of India, one of the oldest civilizations of this world. Had our rulers of the past and present been more confident of their heritage, ...//

Had your leaders/rulers been more confident of their heritage - they would not have ``carved`` pakistan in the first place.... but that`s separate topic.....

Allahafis, beta.

my sentiments, exactly ........... let`s do our part by sticking with khuda and dumping the arab usurper .........

Great articel Zia, keep it up.

Pakistan was carved out of India, one of the oldest civilizations of this world. Had our rulers of the past and present been more confident of their heritage, there would have been no need to fashion a new Paki culture/history/language/ethos. Afsos (Sadly), Pakistanis were subjected to numerous experiements which finally culiminated with the Arabization of Pakistan under Zia ul Haq. Afghan war, Jihad, war against communism and petro dollars all contributed to a new class of Pakistanis who can stake claims to their Arab/Islamic roots. Poor country like Pakistan did not have enough resources to support its meglomaniac dreams rented itself to the Americans then to the Saudis, first casualty of this marriage was the weak, poor totally dependent writers/poets/thinkers of this godforsaken place. Out of this darkness rose a new list of lietrrati`s such Shah Baleegh Uddin, Dr Israr Ahmed etc etc. who had no desire to stay connected with the hindu dominated past and drove Pakistanis towards a new paradigm, the Arab/Muslim identity. Thus the need to change our history books, our cultural affiliations and of course to change all this you need to change how people conversed with each other ie the linguistic imperialism.

One has to be fair and acknowledge that pre-partition Urdu was promoted to separate Muslims from the Hindus. In today`s world where Pakistan is totally dependent upon foreign aid and searching for a Pakistani identity, decision makes hose the easy way out which was also the more lucrative method.

I liked my Dadda Abba`s urdu, there Khudda Hafiz, Adaab, Zahi Naseeb, thashreef rakhain, aapka ismay gramee (whats your name) etc etc, these things now belong to the past or a very small section of our society. Lingo now found is either arabized or Indianized thru the barrage of Indian movies/TV channels. Then again, thats how societies evolve, whether its a good thing or bad, only time will tell. But one thing is for sure, nobody respects those who do not honor and remember their past.

Nicely written. This is a welcome break from the usual hate-filled, my-religion-is-better-than-yours kind of stuff that keeps appearing here.

Even I wondered what happened to the good old, secular sounding ``Khuda Hafiz``. good to know that others also think the same.

Keep it up, Zia.

Well written Zia!!! Even though the tone is humorous, the underlying message is serious enough. Look forward to reading more from you. Way better than the inane stuff about long dead men that is peddled regularly here.