NWFP Demonstrators Fury against No Response from Army

Bolta_Aina

The distinction between the common man (Pakistani, in this case) and the members/associates of various power groups was appropriate. But by the second paragraph, you began to employ one word (Pakistan) to embrace everyone (even the ISI).

If you re-do your analysis maintaining the distinctions between various actors, you will reach very different, and more accurate, conclusions.

#207 by mohar11 on October 18, 2005 6:30am PT

After the fall of the berlin, the allies found no nazis among the surviving Germans...after paris fell to the allies, every frenchie they found was a member of the french resistance..amazing isn`t it? that`s sooo like the pakis...after jihad has become unkewl, you won`t find a single pakis who`ll openly admit to have supported jihad....

Re: # 203 zahra
//.... I do think that a common/not so common harworking man and woman would not like to associate himself/herself with any maniac Jehadi....//

Then why don`t the common/not so common people of pakistan come out in the street and march against jihadis..... why don`t unite and campaign against the maniac jihadis?.... why don;t they force their army to stop support the jiahdis?.....

And for a start.... why don`t they stop stuffing money into those jihad collection boxes?..... According WSJ estimate - the domestic donation for jihad generates 1 Billion [with a B] dollars a year in pakistan .... that`s probably more than pakistan`s FDI inflow....

++++

You can feign ignorance, but the truth is - jihadis are bred, fed, trained with active support from pakistani state, nation and the civil society for last 15 years.... the ultimate goal is to get kashmir via jihad.....the sectarian ``local killings`` is explained away as an unfortunate side effect and people of pakistan have been prepared to pay that price ....

So please - enough already, no more excuses ..... You pakis should start taking responsibility for your actions - the ``global-jihad`` starts from your backyard..... The time to act is now....

Re: # 204

bolta-aina

``My personal opinion is that Indians should not blame Pakistan only for jihadi actions in kashmir. Pakistan has no control over it. India is suffering from the wider world-wide Jihad. As long as the world-wide Jihad remains, India will continue to suffer. ``


in that case it should open its door for india so that it can tackle these problem at its root. india has no desire to stay in PoK or pak, it just wants to deal with the terrorists who come pouring in. and if pak controls them than its even better. but i think pak uses teh terrorists as pawns in its kashmir game.

In NY mushy was threatening india by warning that if india didn`t remove troops from border areas, he could increase the flow of insurgents.

even during the time india-pak had come very close to a war, the reason was the terrorist training camps. rather than acknowledging their presence and its inability to close them, pak was saying that no camps exists in its territory.

i think pak is playing a very dangerous game which may one day engulf itself.

Re: # 203

Zahra:

thanks for your reply.

``For a few seconds, let`s put that thought aside that these mad jehadis are killing anyone outside Pakistan. These are the same people, if not different, who have been killing the locals on the basis of their religious sects. How can you expect a Jehadi to have any sympathy and compassion for an Indian when he cares less for the Pakistanis? Again, this is an excellent example of lawlessness. There is a jungle rule. There is no sense of obligation towards the system in which this ``supposed character`` resides. ``

we also have goonda raj in some of our states like bihar, but if it spills over to another country thatn it is our responsibility to contain it. Similarly pakistan should also take care of it, otherwise we will have situations like 2001 (?) when the indian parliament was attacked.

the problem i see is not pakistans incapability to contain the jihadis but not to even acknowledge their presence. sometimes i felt that pakistan itself is hostage to jihadi/ISI elements. in such a case may be both the countries should join forces to combat it. But there is a feeling that mushy also has some influence on them as he threatened to increase the flow of insurgents if india doesn`t start peace talks.

normally if such questions are raised in front of pakis then its the usual cycle of blame game. they will say why don`t you remove your army from the valley and self-determination of the kashmiris. so there is not much coming out of the discussion.

It would be wrong on the part of Indians to think that common Pakistani people can anyway control Jihad.

Due to fragile nature of Political establishment of Pakistan since its creation, many powerful groups have emerged within which are no less than ``states within the state``. Powerful Landlords and Tribal Leaders are one such group. The other Powerful State-within-the-state is ISI. ISI is immune to the political authority of Pakistan whether it is a military or a civilian ruler. The Indo-Pak relations are totally controlled by the ISI. The Head of Pakistan cannot make any change in the relations -for better or for worse. The strategy of ISI vis-a-vis India has been to keep Kashmir smouldering. It does not add too much fuel to the fire that India becomes restless. It is also not interested in tkaing the so-called Jihad deep down in the Indian mainland. It wants only Kashmir to remain in international focus so that India is always on the defensive at the international forums and does not try to fly too high.

The other state-within-the-state that has emerged in Pakistan is the Jihad Factory. The Jihadists of Pakistan do not have Kashmir in their agenda. They have international ambitions. The want to take on the mighty western world and america and frankly speaking Kashmir/India would not fit into their status. But they do supply Jihadists for Kashmir as a token of rent( you can say) to Pakistan/ISI for using the territory.

There is a wide spread speculation that Pakistan refused Indian aid in PAK because of the fear that ther Terrorist Training camps there would be exposed. If the things were in Pakistani control, they would have immediately ``cleaned`` those camps for the Indian aid to follow. The problem appears is that ,the Pakistani establishment itself did not know where exactly those camps are functioning and too what degree, since the Jihadists are not in control of Pakistan.

My personal opinion is that Indians should not blame Pakistan only for jihadi actions in kashmir. Pakistan has no control over it. India is suffering from the wider world-wide Jihad. As long as the world-wide Jihad remains, India will continue to suffer.

Not to say, Pakistanis also claim they they too suffer from the Jihad. Its true .Just as Indians co not have any control over Jihad factory in Pakistan, Pakistan also does not have any control over it. Somebody may ask if both the countries are sufferers then why both the countries do not undertake a joint combing operation?? Good question but what if the Indian Forces(which are stronger) do not leave the Pak territory??

Re: # 199

Netizen: I knew that`s where you were headed. You have a valid concern.
There are Pakistanis who raise voice on the prevalent injustice, corruption and lawlessness within the Pakistani System. Unfortunately, there are NOT enough of those voices. There is a difference between raising a concern repeatedly and then carrying it through till the end to make a difference. Sometimes, an editorial can create a spark and wake up the right authorities. On other occasions, someone may write about an issue 100,000 times and there is no one to pay any heed.

Despite my ignorance on the prevalent politics in Pakistan, I do think that a common/not so common harworking man and woman would not like to associate himself/herself with any maniac Jehadi. There are exceptions. People have their likes and dislikes. Some people have nothing better to do than while away their time.

For a few seconds, let`s put that thought aside that these mad jehadis are killing anyone outside Pakistan. These are the same people, if not different, who have been killing the locals on the basis of their religious sects. How can you expect a Jehadi to have any sympathy and compassion for an Indian when he cares less for the Pakistanis? Again, this is an excellent example of lawlessness. There is a jungle rule. There is no sense of obligation towards the system in which this ``supposed character`` resides.

How a Chowk Interactor addresses such issues is his or her prerogative. I cannot speak for anyone since I hardly know any of the said interactors you have brought up in your post. I would recommend that you address the issue directly with them. I am sure you cannot speak for anyone on Chowk except for yourself.

Unfortunately, mockery, sarcasm, abrasiveness and back stabbing are not the best way of learning the philosophy behind crooked idealogues or understanding a neigbour`s true intent.

My prophetic finding did not have anything to do with your post. You have raised a valid concern. I am sorry I do not have a concrete answer.

Re: # 197

Arjun:

Bad example. Sun rise is a natural phenomenon. Your witnessing it does not make any difference. Nature will take its due action. Killing a human being in a wild manner is not a natural act. So, you need to be a witness to that before crying wolf.

We are even now!

re:#200 by shishapa
Almost every Paki (with a few exceptions here and there) likes to see Kashmir join Pakistan. He knows that, given India`s army strength (proven again and again in the 3 wars), Jehad is the only way. Most Pakis do not give a damn about the innocent lives lost in this jehad.

I am, however, surprised at the lack of enthusiasm among Pakis on chowk about Indo-Pak joint rescue operations during this disaster. I sincerely believe that this might create such tremendous goodwill that Kashmir problem can be tackled with a new hope and trust. I am disappointed not one Chowkee has come out to say this was a good idea. Their silence on this is, to use an old cliche, deafening.
Sridhar

Re: # 199

Exactly. I have not heard anywhere, on chowk, on electronic print media, Pakistanis
condemning/asking_for_resignation_of terrorist cabinet ministers like Sheikh Rashid, let alone prosecuting him for his crimes. That man is responsible for deaths of so many
Kashmiris. Who knows how many such high-up creatures are walking and talking in and
around Pakistan withouth any fear of any kind of reprimands and reprisals!

Re: # 194

ZahraJ

``Just because some mad jehadis happen to be muslims and dwell on the soil of Pakistan does not mean that they are a representative of Pakistan in any way or shape.``

Zahra,

the mad jehadis can be muslims and dwell on pakistani soil, indians are fine with that. The problem arises when they sneak into india. Reports indicate death of thousands of them and damage to their infrastucture. Why pak and its people tolerate this? why tahmeds, mantos, hamidms of pak don`t ask their gov. to dismantle this jihadi factories? on one hand they are cursing ranjit for his gloating over the death of innocent lives whereas they remain tight-lipped about slaughter of indians by these jihadis.

re:#192 by ZahraJ
Indian Govt would probably refuse Pak Army`s help in a situation where earthquake were to happen in India and India needed massive outside help. It would be both a political and image building issue with the GOI. There is, however, no way India can refuse NGOs from Pak coming in and helping the victims. This is what happened in Pak during the present disaster. Pak dictator ruled out even the NGOs (read Kuldip Nayyar`s article in dawn that i posted in this forum). In Pak, one man calls the shots. Not so in India.
Sridhar

#194 by ZahraJ on October 16, 2005 8:02pm PT


Were you a witness to that?


Huh? I didn`t witness the sun rise today either...doesn`t mean it doesn`t happen...


Just because some mad jehadis happen to be muslims and dwell on the soil of Pakistan does not mean that they are a representative of Pakistan in any way or shape.


Yes they are..especially when they are indoctrinated, funded and armed by the Pakistani government/military with the full support of the paki people...

It`s not an earthquake that just happened to have an epicenter in Pakistan....

Post No.139-Mr.tahmed32-- You wrote :-

``bolta-aina #138: i see that even at this time you are unable to give up your spiteful habits and need to belittle others with making up false claims. i have been following the news, and contrary to your claims in fact outside observers (like the bbc) have noted the great personal efforts being made by pakistanis, military and civilian, in the rescue effort. e.g. i heard the bbc note that pakistani helicopter pilots have been flying beyond the number of hours considered safe to drop urgently needed help and so forth, and i have seen on US tv pakistani c-130`s flying at dangerously low levels in order to drop supplies in remote areas. ``


Apart from what the Tv News channels have been telling about the relief measures, we have heard a lot from the victims themselves. Even for three days when the army did not reach them, there were angry protests as to where is the army??

There is no doubt that the mobilisation by the people of Pakistan was exemplary, the actions of Civil & Military administration left much to be desired. We can exempt civil administration to some extent because they are generally inefficient and slow in response everywhere. But the army is supposed to act very fast and the Pakistani army did not act with the speed with which it was expected.

Now it may be said that Pakistani Army is also inefficient and not prepared for such type of eventualities. This does not seem so. Pakistani Army is efficient , disciplined and it acts as a coherent unit.

The other explanation being given is that army could not act because the roads were blocked by the landslides. The argument also cannot be bought at its face value. The armies, particularly in border areas do not depend on conventional channels for their movement, particularly the foot soldiers. The reason is what if the conventional channels like roads, railway lines etc are destroyed by the enemy in a pre-emptive strike.

We have also seen and also has been reported in the media that in some places army soldiers were there but they were just loitering here and there for want of ``orders``.

All these reasons tend to give the impression that there was much more in the slow mobilisation of the army.

HamidM:

``“there are a few shrines to sheridan as well in pakistan, particularly in sindh and baluchistan”

You do Lahore an injustice by not mentioning the one opposite Data Sahib. I remember paying my respects there but did not mention it in my write up for fear of further offending the Indians. They were quite riled up over my visit to Dunkin Donuts in any case :)

Re: # 193

Were you a witness to that? This kind of rubbish is heard on both sides. Throughout our childhood I have heard stories of Indian spies at different railway stations in Lahore and its vicinity. Doing what? Spying. I guess at that time the offshoring was not on the horizon therefore ``spying`` was the popular vocation (pun intended). We can go on and on and pick stories that I have heard long time ago and you have come across. What`s the purpose of even discussing those stories? I did not realize that we were on a board to discuss ``South Asian Nights (Taken from the concept of Arabian Nights).``

Just because some mad jehadis happen to be muslims and dwell on the soil of Pakistan does not mean that they are a representative of Pakistan in any way or shape. Despite having many barristers and other legal representatives in Pakistani politics and institutions, unfortuantely none of them have been able to assist the government in implementing any concrete measures against the law and order situation in Pakistan. That is Pakistan`s key issue.