Chickens are Coming Home to Roost

#66 by ferozk on October 24, 2005 8:08am PT

For more info on which laws might be used, read today`s Justin Raimondo column

Let Justice Be Done

There are plenty of violations of federal law to be found around the Niger
uranium forgeries, and I expect Fitzgerald has found most if not all of them by
now. When the president made his 2003
State of the Union address, and referred to Iraq`s efforts to procure
uranium in ``an African country,`` the source of his allegation was a cache of
documents that had been turned over to the American embassy in Rome under mysterious
circumstances. Less than a month after the president`s speech, these documents
were proved
to be fakes, crude forgeries that could have been debunked by an amateur
with a few hours to spend on Google.

Whoever forged these documents and introduced them into the American
intelligence stream is guilty of violating this law:

``Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive,
legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States,
knowingly and willfully– (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick,
scheme, or device a material fact; (2) makes any materially false, fictitious,
or fraudulent statement or representation; or (3) makes or uses any false
writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false,
fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.``

And this
law:

``If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the
United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any
manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect
the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than five years, or both.``

Re: # 28

Mohammad sahib, the case hinges on the legality of intent and as much as we may wish the legality away, it will only entrench itself. I need a second opinion on this, but my recollection is that it is a crime to identify a CIA operative, but it is not a crime to identify their family members. The law allows, indirectly, to name the operative without actually naming the operative and the law on this issue might be so construed as to offer a plausible deniability.

The second consideration is, what was the intention of the remark made, which identified Valerie Palmer. I do not think that there is sufficient evidence present to make the argument that the remark was made in bad faith to jeapordize Valerie Palmer`s cover on purpose. The point to remember is that Ms. Judith Miller was forced to make the confession on the identity of the person, who gave her Valerie Palmer`s name because of the laws passed by the Bush adminisration itself to force reporters to identify their sources if such sources provided material evidence in the successful prosecution of GWOT.

The basic issue, as you have stated, was if Karl Rove, ``Scooter`` Libby and other officials had crossed the legal boundaries by naming Valerie Plame. The evidence would suggest that they have not, because the law itself is murky on the issue. The law requires solid evidence to prove the guilt of the accused and not a presumption of guilt, as many seem to be hoping. I think that Karl Rove and ``Scooter`` Libby were well within the legal penumbera of the law and though they may have flexed the bounderies of the law; they did not breach such bounderies by their actions. The evidence or its lack thereof, would suggest that this was more a case of irregularity than mal-intentions on the part of Rove, Libby et al. The difference being that irregularity would suggest that the understanding on the confidentiality of the sources and the need to protect the identities of the government officals engaged in intelligence operations for the United States` government was compromised, but there was no criminal intent. Mal-intention would, on the other hand pre-suppose, a criminal intent and so far, to the best of my understanding, no criminal intent has been proven.

The basis of the case rests on the understanding of the law itself on the issue and such, that law being unclear, gives credence to the defense argument of Libby, Rove et al that there was no criminal intent in naming Valerie Palmer. Before we put on our masks of judge, jury and executioner on this issue, it would be wise to wait and see if the government actually has evidence to prove the existence of a mal-intent on part of the accused in this case. Chances are, that given the gravity of the situation, the accused will resign and will be pardoned by Bush, which will negate any future legal action against them.

Ciao

#42 by ntsyed on October 23, 2005 2:52pm PT


And if there were Muslims aboard those planes, who is to counter the argument that they were the culprits?


Someone with a stick strong enough to stop the US from invading Afghanistan and killing the terrorists?

What? No such entity exists? Tough luck....

Richard A. Clarke has a new book (billed as fiction) called “The Scorpion’s Gate” to go along with his first offering “Against All Enemies.” Both books should be interesting reading for those contributing here. The man is getting his revenge. mirmir

Mohammed Gill: If you want the latest information on this topic, go to antiwar.com.

I am not very political, but I have not read a single account in any of the major media about any of the Bathist (or its apologists) for the mass graves discovered in Iraq. Our pseudo intellectuals like the writer of this piece are banging their drums loud about “Iraq saying no WMDs”. There have been (to date) 141 Mass Graves uncovered (totaling 80 K Plus dead, Shias and Kurds). Have you guys every heard Saddam or his puppies (including you guys) ever coming forward to admit that it was their doing? I am sorry, I forgot, killing Shias and gassing Kurds was their “internal” issue.

I hope and pray to Satan that the Chickens come home to roost, but only Wahabi inspired Saudi financed Sunni chicken crossing Syrian Iraqi border, not only should they come to roost, but it will make me happy to see them get roasted.

Excellent piece of garbage Mr. Gill. As always.

Virginia`s senate-critter breaks from the koolaid crown on Pennsylvania avenue...and confirms that he`s running for president in 08..

Resignations May Follow Charges
Senators Discuss Leak Case

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, October 24, 2005; A03

Sen. George Allen (R-Va.) said yesterday that he expects White House officials will step down if they are indicted this week but stressed that speculation should cease until special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald announces the results of his investigation into the leak of the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame.

Re#55 by ntsyed

NTSyed Sahib,

Arre, yeh kya mamla hai – lagta hai aap hum pe naraj ho gaye hain! Yeh brain straining stuff kya cheez hoti hai?

First it is Ms. Ana – and now it’s you! As of today – my score appears to be two strikes and no balls! (Drop that last part!)

And this comes after I send to you my hearty best wishes – to keep that beard flowing gracefully! I must agree with Dr. Gill that some of us are becoming too worn-out to retain our cool – alas!

Regarding your post – as far as I know, GWB served in the Texas National Guard quite honorably. Since neither I nor you did that – I think he did quite well! The last person who made a joke and tried to belittle that service was a guy named Rather – you may have heard of him – I wonder what he is up to – he has not been seen too often lately! I don’t know much about Mr. Rumsfeld’s record – it’s my understanding that he has been a secretary of defense virtually for ever – long before many of the contemporary political personalities came into the picture!

Now, the following paragraph is written in a serious vein therefore, please pay attention:

I do not fully get the drift of your remark about “insufficient aid” for the Pakistani earthquake and all the rest you say here – but it appears to reveal a very troubling state of mind. As somebody pointed out on the “Scream” board, the tragedy is real but so is the unfortunate fact that most victims of such disasters – everywhere – end up dealing with their situation by themselves – be it Pakistan or Louisiana. The pain and suffering is always on an individual basis and knows no caste, creed or religion. It is the bottom of utter, utter idiocy to drop in mentions of the very real sufferings of victims of natural disasters in a trivial inane “political” discussion, which this board signifies, to score a couple of moronic points. In my view, it is sacrilegious. Shame on you! That’s all, SIR!

To borrow from the Gill,

Wishing you well,
(but convinced that I will have to wish REALLY hard)
Beej.

#55 by ntsyed
“We`re discussing ``legitimacy`` of this war,”
Syed,
Yes that is exactly what we are doing but your idea of legitimacy is a conspiracy theory and I am providing you a specific reason for the war. I had already discussed the WMD issue in my post #9 and you can read my comments about the stupidity of the WMD rational of the war. I had also said that the real reason of war was the fear that Iraq would fall to the terrorists. You have yet to provide any argument to discredit my theory which is not a theory but a fact. This view was shared by both Clinton and Bush admin and therefore, a view supported by both parties of the US and the US establishment.

The real problem is that you don’t understand your own comments because you have been indoctrinated comprehensively by the Islamic fundamentalists. When I translate your own comments to the political reality you just run away as you really don’t know the logic of your own comments yourselves. Go back to your murshid and ask him why the US was fighting on the both sides of the fence. We will take it from there.

#49 by SR
“You make bold predictions.”

No! Actually I was really conservative, which I always am.

I don’t agree with the use of the term Empire. I think it is an archaic term and comes from people who learned their politics in the feudal background and never graduated to the modern times. The empires ended with first the British and then the Russians. The US was never in the history called an empire.

You seem to borrow heavily from the cold war terminology. This world has moved way beyond the cold war. The US is not an Empire it is the leader of the modern world, a modern world that started with the demise of the cold war.

I don’t know what you pin your hopes on but the US economy is not about to break up because there is no substitute to replace the most astutely build economic, fiscal and financial system that the US has developed over the years. If you believe that China or the Euro would make a dent in the US economy then you are sadly mistaken.

Since the end of the cold war and in the last 15 or so years the US has turned the world upside down by throwing in a huge economic bonanza to so many countries that is unprecedented in the whole human endeavor of the last few centuries.

This world has never seen an economy that summarily outsourced some three million high tech jobs at the drop of the hat without impacting its own economic system barring a few burps. The world does not have enough high tech people to take care of all the jobs that are coming its way from the US alone. If the countries outside of the US can provide educated people the US still has the capacity to send more than ½ million jobs outside every year without a blink.

Just look at the monumental revolution that is taking place in communication alone that is sponsored by the US. Cell phone, internet, and other communication devices have opened up the world and it was only possible because the US wanted to do it. Look at the economic revolution that countries like India, china and the countries in East Asia are going thru since the end of the cold war, all sponsored by the US.

What this world would have been without the cold war? What a waste of time and energy that was for the world.

There are political issues in the US that stem form changing over of the economy and the system from the cold war ideological battles. That is part of the democracy and these issues are being fought every where in the US and that shows the vibrancy of the country, its economy and its political system.

Thanks.

Apparently, common courtesy is in short supply at Chwk. Many chowkies wrongly believe that courtesy is a sign of wimpishness. However, an intelligent person can make his/her point quite effectively without being rude.

To walk away from an impudent situation (ignoring a rude inter-actor, in other words) is a better part of misplaced valor. It is good that the disputants (combatants) seem to have put down their (c)rude weapons; the next step should be a show of some courtesy. Difference of opinion is healthy; there is no need to bulldoze others to win a point. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

beej,

i wasn`t apologizing to you. but if that`s the way you want to look at it, feel free to.

and about you never attacking individuals, only topics. . . . thanks very much for the comic relief. can always count on you for that, can`t we?

enough said. i`m respecting gill sahib`s wishes from now on.

Beej Bhai, please don`t bother with this brain straining stuff and keep your politics restricted to stuffing ballot boxes with your ``all so powerful`` votes.

No need for you and your loved ones to join the American Armed Forces either, since your Commander in cheif and his cabal never did so either. Rummy also joined the navy after the war. And I`m sure you don`t want to betray your leaders. Besides, there are so many others to die unnecessarily for your comfort anyway.

Kindly enjoy your sabji and keep your `helping` hands busy with them. In spite of the insufficient relief aid for the earthquake stricken Pakistanis, we`re managing on our own just fine with whatever resources we have available. Only if one could see with his/her own eyes, the way Pakistanis have rescued their own puts the Americans to shame in the wake of Katrina.

HP, please don`t waste your time with hollow textbook theories. Instead, please try to learn to discern what is being said, even if it goes against your grain. Then learn to connect the dots with real events and see who benefits under each circumstance to figure out the whole picture. Besides, what`s 3,000 for a serial killer who gets to kill 100,000+ as a so-called revenge and make barrel loads of money while doing it, too?

Please read my post again to understand what is being said there...and try not to twist anything lest you end up twisted like your logic. For example, you`re stuck on the mismanagement of the war. That`s a non-issue now, in case you never noticed, i.e. everyone agrees it`s been mishandled. We`re discussing ``legitimacy`` of this war, which was instigated by the debate on outing of the CIA operative Ms Plame as a revenge against her husbands bold opposition of war and discrediting the GWB rationale for it way in the beginning.

I will however respond to a couple of points you`ve raised, now that you`ve alienated yourself from your defunct Taliban propaganda.

People in your quarters first said it was the WMD, then Saddam-OBL links, then freedom, then democracy...what`s next reinstalling Saddam?

Saddam did want to sell OIL...to everone...to rebuild his economy. That was the reason for his invasion of Kuwait when he wasn`t allowed to sell. If the world had offered him a deal then Israel would have had to deal with a reestablished pissed-off Saddam whose nuclear installation she illegally took out earlier. Not to mention her expansionist wet-dreams would have become much difficult if Saddam had regained his strength. Why do you think she`s so keen on realizing her dream of Greater Israel that includes Makkah and Madina? To control Muslims and to change their qibla from Jeruselam to Ka`aba? Think OILY my friend.

So my dear gullibalized, amrikanized desi dost, the OIL theory is not just about the uninterrupted supply, but also who controls it. The one who controls it, gets to the play with every other country`s balls without any restriction...like late Kind Faisal did back in the 70s when he used his pliers on American balls. Not to mention, western faggots never could resist a set of firm Asian balls. And remember, Asia is not limited to Middle East.

The actual resistance in Iraq - as in Ramadi, Tal Afar, Falluja, Basra etc - is not US sponsored. Because seldom do these insurgents cause civilian casualties. But I wouldn`t be surprised if the attacks on civilians are, which primarily take place in Baghdad - the American stronghold in Iraq. The US certainly has a history of such behavior. Please do some research on Salvadoran Option.

Again, your theories are extremely out-dated in today`s fast paced age. These mainly focus on American angels, even if they`re wearing red leotards and hold pitch forks.

Kindly bring something fresh to talk about. Otherwise, let the others have some meaningful discussion.

:-)~~

Re#52 Ana

Okay, Ana - I accept your apology - even though you tender it through Dr. Gill.

I only attack topics - NEVER individuals - and individuals only feel so if they are so passionate about their topics that they lose their individual objectivity.

Simple as that!

Sometimes, people need to be hit on their heads before they realize that things which appear highly complicated to them are basically very simple.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Romair #21

`` When the history of the Republican party is written, by Republican authors themselves, George Bush will be the person they will blame for their demise.

The USA, over the past four decades has gone through a social revolution. It is the only influential country in the Western world that has gone from Liberalism to Conservatism, socially. It is the only influential country in the Western world, which has gone from being less religious to more religious. It is, infact, going against the trend of where the Western world is going. As an example, according to Pew, 45% of Americans now want religion in the State, i.e. they are against Secularism. While 35% of Britishers feel that David Beckham has more influence on their lives than God! ``

There is always a constituency for social conservatism and pro-business market policies.
Do you really think every wealthy Pakistani Americans will oppose Republican Party ?

`` The conservative movement in the USA took a lot of effort, and reached its zenith during the Regan days, and took control of the Republican party. After which it was only matter of time, till it took over the USA. Five out of the last seven US Presidents have been Republican. And only a President of Clinton`s calibre was able to make a dent for the Demcrats. ``

Republicans have a lock on the presidency because a lot of White folks in the South dislike Democratic party courtship of Blacks and a lot of Whites in Western states dislike Democrat stances on gun control/moral issues/environment. There is 220 electoral votes in these states.

`` The Republicans reached a point, through the social conservative revolution, where they controlled the House, the Senate, the Executive, and are about to control the Judiciary. Something unprecedented in the last century of the USA. ``

Democrats controlled the House, Senate, Executive and Judiciary under Rossevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson.


`` This is what the situation would and should have been in the USA for the Conservatives and Republicans. In a USA, where 2 out of every 3 citizens claims to be conservative, the Republican party should be undefeatable. However, Bush seems to have ruined it for them, in a quick 6 years.........``

There exist a lot of conservative Democrats. I am one. I have plenty of Democratic friends who are conservative either in fiscal or social domain.

gill sahib,

i apologize. the personal attacks had already begun. i should not have continued with it. and yes mirmir is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, i wasn`t doing him any favors. he also happens to be a newcomer who is not desi like us, but north american like some of us. there are other interactors here who speak up for each other, and i don`t know why i should be described as uptight for speaking up not just for mirmir, but against something i have seen enough of in this country. khair. . . the conversation seems to be continuing just fine, and i have nothing further to add to this, because i have no time to argue with folks who believe that the occupation of iraq is to ``save`` the iraqi people, and who think that criticising dubya is tantamount to blasphemy.

and whoever told you i was capable of intellectual sophistication has no clue what they`re talking about :)

regards,
ana