Bye Bye NAM, Hello Realpolitik!

anyone who doesn`t recite the ``Islam is a religion of peace`` mantra is a fascist according to hindvi...

any mention of the worldwide war on terrorism being fought against Islamic radicals puts makes you a hitler...

OTOH, apologists for peeople flying planes into buildings have serious opinions that need to be considered....

hindvi:

`` But i do have a problem if Dost mittar mouths the sangh Parivar line and says Aryans did not come to india, or were the first settlers...``

I have not made any definitive statement of this type. I have said that I have seen claims and counter-claims in this regard. While I have seen substance on both sides, I have seen no knockout punch by either side. The only decisive point has been scored by the people against the Aryan Invasion Theory, as Romilla Thapar publicly admitted in The Hindu that there is no proof of invasion, it could be merely migration. To me, this is a historical and not a ideological issue. Unlike some other people, I do not reject an idea simply because it comes from a communist or a hindutva-vadi. Tilak proudly claimed that Aryans came from outside India and he was no secularist.

However, here is something that I have said which perhaps makes me a hindutvavadi in your and maybe other people`s eyes: It is that whether or not Aryans came from outside, they take no pride in any foreign origin. Even if they have come from outside, they have embraced Pre-Aryan (Dravidian?) civilization as their own and take full pride in it. The same is true of Kushans, Greeks, Huns and other Pre-Islamic people who came to the subcontinent.

rsridhar:

``Can u name even one muslim educational institution of similar nature?``

I believe Hamdard organization has such an english-medium school in Delhi.

I think that hindvi has a point. Our earlier so-called socialist governments should have placed emphasis on ensuring equality of education for everyone instead of spending state resources on nationalisation and other wasteful activities. That would have required additional resources for the socially disadvantaged groups.

But hindvi should also recognize the responsiblity of Muslims themselves. They are not an insignificant minority and have significant electoral muscle. As far as I am aware (and I hope I am wrong) they use all their muscle to obtain haj subsidies, preservation of sharia laws, more powers for wakfs, more funds and autonomy of Madrassas and, at best, for the advancement of Urdu.

harimou#258:

Could we hold our judgement until we found out who is responsible for these blasts? [No, I do not believe in the conspiracy theories that the RSS did it]

hamidm#256:

I will first address the general question before getting into specifics.

The way I see it, individual human rights are distinct from a people`s right to self-determination. The first right is the right of every human being by virtue of birth, the second is a people`s right which has to be justified. It is easy to have one without the other. For example, there are still people in India who would claim that there were fewer human rights violations in India during the British Rule than is the case now.

The second right, namely of self-determination, can only be established on a case-by-case basis. For example, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Asian republics were all part of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which, in theory, were indpendent republics even when they were part of the USSR with the right to secede. India, Algeria, S. Africa, etc., were all colonies of far away lands who got their rights to freedom only after Colonialism went out of favour.

You are right about larger countries not necessarily making for happy countries. But that is a different issue. Whether or not Kashmiris can claim to have a right to self-determination is a separate issue; in my opinion, Pakistan correctly calls it an unfinished business of partition.

hamidm#256:

I will first address the general question before getting into specifics.

The way I see it, individual human rights are distinct from a people`s right to self-determination. The first right is the right of every human being by virtue of birth, the second is a people`s right which has to be justified. It is easy to have one without the other. For example, there are still people in India who would claim that there were fewer human rights violations in India during the British Rule than is the case now.

The second right, namely of self-determination, can only be established on a case-by-case basis. For example, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Asian republics were all part of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which, in theory, were indpendent republics even when they were part of the USSR with the right to secede. India, Algeria, S. Africa, etc., were all colonies of far away lands who got their rights to freedom only after Colonialism went out of favour.

You are right about larger countries not necessarily making for happy countries. But that is a different issue. Whether or not Kashmiris can claim to have a right to self-determination is a separate issue; in my opinion, Pakistan correctly calls it an unfinished business of partition.

teshah#254:

You may be right. Indians may have found out about the intransigence of the new President of Iran and taken it into consideration in their decision. All one can say is Allah save Iran from Ayatollahs!

do tam brahmins in general create educational institutes for dalits? if they did so India would have had universal literacy ages ago, why then do u expect a rich muslim, a breed which is rare enough, to create schools for poor muslims. the one really rich muslim I have read about is Azim Premji he opened a few schools for all indians, as it should be, i am not saying open schools for muslims what I am saying is open schools in muslim and dalit and OBC areas with incentives.

You and wiseguyin and ranger like most educated indians think that since u have slogged itout so should a poor person`s child. Have u noticed how even the most mediocre child of a middle/upper class individual clears at least a first degre or sets up a busines or some how or the other manages to lead a reasonable life where as an equivalent child of a servant or a rickshaw puller is unable to even complete primary education, if he is above average he completes secondary school? It has a lot to with the environment one is born in, the fact that ones parents are educated, that they guide and set rules and habits and set expectations, that one goes to a good school with good teachers and where fellow students are educated with expectaions again playing a role, that ones neighbours all end up going to college, that ones relatives and cousins etc all have the same expectations . now imagine creating that for a child whose mother weaves or works as a domestic or lifts bricks on her head and whose father pulls a rickshaw or works as a daily wage labourer, if he is lucky other wise the father may just be an alcoholic or an unemployed waster. see his neighbours, his parents, his school, his teachers who dont turn up or themselves cant speak in an overcrowded class room, look at his cousins look at the expectation, often he will miss a meal, there will be demands for resource from the the younger children if the boy is lucky he will complete primary education other wise he will be put to work even before that as a weaver or bidi maker or chai walah or boot polish wala, a truckers helper or a domestic.

Very few children take to education with a relish, it is a disagreeable business for all to sit infront of books but the parents who are educated and middle class ensure that their child does so often sitting with the todller themselves, when the child is a little older he realises himself that this is the only way to make a future, otherwise he does it under peer and parental pressure or expectations. What will a 4 or 5 year old child of a bai do sit down with the books on his own or play gilli danda with the street children?

it is amazing that such things that one sees infront of ones eyes every day have to be spelt out.

and u also want political assasinations to be carried out with a Nuclear tipped neighbour, u think the Pakistani`s are Palestinians o turbaned one please stick to homeopathy.

Re: # 292 bheram
//...I am sorry that you feel this way...//

what can I say? ..... this jihad killing machine is running non-stop for last 15 years - with full support of paki govt, people and civil society..... you folks have done nothing to stop jihad against hinuds ....infact it`s opposite, you folks are generating a billion dollar a year to feed the jihad monster so that it keeps killing kafirs.....

After all that, you come along and say ``my condolences``...... That`s just straight out of the mafia movies - where the don sends hitmen to kill the guy and then shows up at the funeral to comfort the widow......

I mean, come on.... give us hinuds a break..... take your ``condolences`` and shove it.... we are all stocked up here with fake ``condolences`` already....

re:#290 by hindvi
You are no different from Farzana bibi. It looks like all IMs have one thing in common: whining.
Education in India is a state subject. If muslims elect MLAs in a constituency, they should make that guy responsible for their welfare. Is Urdu faring better in Bihar where Lallu yadav swears by his secular credentials?
Besides, nobody will stop muslims from starting their own educational institutions that teach urdu. Look at the christian missionary schools and colleges doing a great service. These are very secular and give quality education. Can u name even one muslim educational institution of similar nature? Why do u always depend on the govt help? Many rich muslims do not do as much for your community. And there are no muslim leaders worthy of mention today.
Sridhar
P.S: As a footnote, Tam Brahms, after being wiped out politically in the 60s, decided wisely to depend on private institutions and their own efforts. You would notice the difference.

re:#270 by ranjit
The level of corruption and depravity is such in India that anybody could be bribed to leave those packet bombs at busy intersections. It could be the handywork of some poor hindu souls who were offered huge bribes. It makes a lot more sense to go and strike at the top. Where is the root of all this? Is it in pakistan? or elsewhere?
Sridhar

re: Ranjit`s post
``...its leader Prof. Hafeez Saeed and his family lives in Lahore and interacts closely with Pak media and authorities. India must immediately oraganize the assasination of Hafeez Saeed, his subordinates and his family...``
India is a soft state. Do u think GOI has the guts to do this? Dawood Ibrahim killed thousands in Bombay blast and lives with impunity somewhere in Karachi. The problem is: for all the talking and breast beating, Indian politicians are one breed of mofukcing cowards. That cowardice comes from living a life of opulence and corruption. They are more prone to negotiations than the drastic step u suggest. Israel would have long assasinated dawood. Forget India can ever do this.

``The second response has to be given to local muslims who collaborated with the L-e-T. In a few days these people are going to celebrate Eid. If we hindus have any sense of shame, we will make their Eid as dark as they have made our Diwali. We can also get RDX and plant it in Jama Masjid and 4 other mosques in Delhi. Lets see how they feel when hundreds of their people die during Eid.``
This is a stupid idea. If u have a weed in your garden, u do not destroy the whole garden to get rid of that weed. If what u suggest is done, it would lead to nationwide rioting and bring to halt the economic progress. You will see all the MNCs quietly leave the country. This is what these terrorists want.
Sridhar

re: Ranjit`s post
``...its leader Prof. Hafeez Saeed and his family lives in Lahore and interacts closely with Pak media and authorities. India must immediately oraganize the assasination of Hafeez Saeed, his subordinates and his family...``
India is a soft state. Do u think GOI has the guts to do this? Dawood Ibrahim killed thousands in Bombay blast and lives with impunity somewhere in Karachi. The problem is: for all the talking and breast beating, Indian politicians are one breed of mofukcing cowards. That cowardice comes from living a life of opulence and corruption. They are more prone to negotiations than the drastic step u suggest. Israel would have long assasinated dawood. Forget India can ever do this.

``The second response has to be given to local muslims who collaborated with the L-e-T. In a few days these people are going to celebrate Eid. If we hindus have any sense of shame, we will make their Eid as dark as they have made our Diwali. We can also get RDX and plant it in Jama Masjid and 4 other mosques in Delhi. Lets see how they feel when hundreds of their people die during Eid.``
This is a stupid idea. If u have a weed in your garden, u do not destroy the whole garden to get rid of that weed. If what u suggest is done, it would lead to nationwide rioting and bring to halt the economic progress. You will see all the MNCs quietly leave the country. This is what these terrorists want.
Sridhar

``Regarding Ram Janmabhoomi , we say Ram was born there because thats what our faith tells us. Its not for a fanatic following a religion founded by a mad pedophile to tell us whether our beliefs are baseless or not``

se I am not saying that Ram was not born in Ayodhya, all I am saying is what I saw on Newstrack during the agitation, The reporter went to ayodhya and several mandir, more than a dozen still claimed until 89/90 that Lord ram was born there. suddenly for some reason they all withdrew their clain around 91/92. By the way a Kar Sewak also claimed their that Lord Ram was born derh Lakh saal pehley, another cliamed teen lakh saal, I have no problem with them saying so, even though we know home sapiens are around 100,000 years in age, for it was faith speaking. But i do have a problem if Dost mittar mouths the sangh Parivar line and says Aryans did not come to india, or were the first settlers despite the genetic evidence know that the aryanesque hindus are genetically closest to Iranians and and Caucasians, as also the skeletons found at Mohenjodaro and Harappa being that of a non aryan people.


Also I must inform, u that the invaders of india were nomadic central asians, not neccessarily muslims fighting hindus, because they inflicted more damage on mulim iranians and turks than they did on India, and by the time Timur, babar, Nadir Shah etc rolled in india was already being ruled by muslims so the people they defeated first and wrested power from were muslims. Even aurangzeb did not spare the deccan muslim kings, just like the marathas once they took power didnt hesitate from looting rajputs or fellow hindus.

Ranger, wiseguyin

You RSS mofos are just as dangerous for India as the jihadis are for Pakistan...

You dont use religion for hating each other, ya dope ya...thats one of the reasons why I`m totally disgusted with the concept of religion. There are more than 160 million muslims in India. You want to ``gauge`` their patriotism on how much they like or dislike Pakistan?

These are muslims, who, for one reason or the other decided to stay in India. Please dont tell them (or their descendants) that they made a mistake...

Re: # 264

Dear mohar11:

I am sorry that you feel this way.

[//...accept my deepest condolences on the tragedy of New Delhi terrorists ....//

Oh please..... stop it, you pakis are killing us kafirs with your kindness..... and with bombs, of course..... ]

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband