Why Doesn’t the World Care?

#286 by faisaluno

[re #284

i advise all pakistanis travelling to india to avoid getting sick: ]


Don`t come to India. We don`t want you here.

Re: # 286

faisaluno:

``i advise all pakistanis travelling to india to avoid getting sick: ``

does it matter to a suicidal jihadi ????

Re: # 250

Dear Faisaluno,

When you are in a hole the best thing is to stop digging... cute. So are you lending a hand or closing the lid?

Firstly - the FDI issue and your mail 66. Yes Pakistan`s FDI has increased over the past three years. I was using the UN Conferenc on Trade and Development indicies which still puts Pakistan in the `underperformer` category, but factually speaking the investments are on the rise. Thank you for pointing this out.

Secondly - you mention in #250 ``yet in your post #233, you bizarrely claim that internal conflicts do not impact foreign perception``. Maybe I should have been more articulate. Pograms and insurgencies do affect image abroad just as internal problems do.

Thirdly - Indonesia`s global opinion. valid point, its image has deteriorated in the past 7 years but the fact of the matter is that despits JW Mariott, etc. it got about 4m tourists in 2003. So perhaps the perception is not yet at a tourist deterrent level. If 4m still do go there, they are attracted to the place and would have had a greater shot of developing a positive affinity. This impacts donor dollars, esp. at an individual level. This is where I was making a comparison to a non-tourist friendly environment of Pakistan.

You`ve made some good observations about the article at a micro level (baal ki khaal autarna) but I havent seen any successful shots at cracking the overall hypothesis on why the world doesnt care..?

Notwithstanding, thanks for your feedback and comments.

Aamir

re #284

i advise all pakistanis travelling to india to avoid getting sick:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050908/asp/nation/story_5212257.asp

The city was awash with huge cloth banners carrying messages like “Uttar Pradesh government welcomes US President Clinton”.

...While state officials were busy managing the Clinton show, Rahul Gandhi reached Gorakhpur in the morning.

A handful of party workers by his side, the Amethi MP reached the Gorakhpur Baba Raghavdas Medical College Hospital and spoke to patients, most of them children.


...Despite the hospital authorities’ last-minute efforts, filth and garbage littered the compound and pigs — the carriers of the disease — roamed about.

An aghast Rahul, unable to bear the stench, at one point covered his face with his handkerchief

He ordered the state to take bold steps to move pigs out of areas of human habitation.
Officials said that he had been upset by the sight of pigs wandering freely in the grounds of some hospitals.

#282 by kaalchakra

[Ajeya, aha_snark, arjun_m

Some of this back-and-forth reads a lot like pharisaic arguing over what the meaning of ``is`` is. Could you please put in simple words the point under debate?

Thanks.]


Yes.

Keep out of this.

Re: #280

From the Foriegn and Commonwealth Office, Government of the UK:

We advise against all travel to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas adjacent to Afghanistan, including Waziristan and the Khyber Pass. We advise against all travel to areas where there are ongoing military operations.

We advise against all but essential travel to the Swat Valley in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), northern and western Baluchistan, including Quetta, and the Sui/Dera Bugti area, and to all border areas except for official crossing points. We advise travellers against using the rail network in Baluchistan.

There is a high threat from terrorism throughout Pakistan. British nationals of Western origin are more likely to be targeted but everyone is at risk from indiscriminate attacks. Previous attacks against Westerners have included bombings and kidnaps.

There is a high risk of sectarian violence throughout Pakistan. We recommend that you avoid places of worship and surrounding areas at busy prayer times.

Since mid-July 2005, sectarian tensions in the Gilgit area have risen sharply and have included violent attacks. You should only travel to Gilgit by air, and avoid the centre of town. Road travel direct from the airport north to Baltistan and the Hunza valley is possible. Caution should be exercised when travelling by road along the Karakorum Highway (KKH). You are advised to join a police guarded convoy and travel in daylight hours on the KKH.

Opposition parties have called for a nationwide strike on Friday 9 September. We recommend that you avoid political demonstrations and large crowds assembled for political or religious purposes.

There is also a serious risk of criminal violence, especially in Karachi. You should be very careful about, and confident of your personal security arrangements throughout your visit.

For more specific local security advice about the cities of Islamabad and Karachi you should contact the Consular sections in the High Commission in Islamabad and in the Deputy High Commission in Karachi respectively (during office hours: GMT +5 hours - contact details below).

If you or your father were born in Pakistan you might be considered by the authorities to be a Pakistani national even if you do not hold a Pakistani passport. In such circumstances, the British government might be prevented from providing the full range of consular assistance.

You should obtain comprehensive travel and medical insurance before travelling.

SAFETY AND SECURITY

Terrorism & Sectarian Violence

There is a high threat from terrorism throughout Pakistan.

There is reliable evidence that terrorists continue to target western, including British, interests and individuals throughout Pakistan. Although the major cities are particularly vulnerable to indiscriminate bombing and other attacks, including kidnapping, no part of Pakistan is immune. Owing to high levels of security at Western embassies, international organisations and international hotels, more vulnerable targets such as clubs, restaurants (including Western style fast food outlets), places of worship and schools are also at risk. Some bomb attacks in 2004 involved consecutive explosions – the first designed to lure police and others to be victims of a second, larger blast.

Incidents of terrorism in 2004 and 2005 include the following. Sectarian attacks and violence are listed separately.
On 8 September 2005, a bomb exploded at a KFC outlet and another at a MacDonald’s franchise in the Defence area of Karachi.
In February 2005, two small bombs exploded in Karachi, one near the Sheraton hotel and the other near the Expo Centre.
In October 2004, there was an explosion at the Marriott hotel in Islamabad that may have been a bomb. Seven people were injured.
In July 2004, a car bomb was discovered and defused outside the US Consulate in Karachi
In July 2004, a tourist bus came under fire on the road between Skardu and Gilgit.
In June 2004, an attempted kidnap of two British nationals in Hunza
In May 2004, three Chinese contractors were killed by a car bomb in Gwadar in south western Baluchistan.
In 2002, there were a series of serious attacks against Westerners and Western interests. These included a grenade attack on a church used by expatriates in Islamabad; a suicide bombing of a bus killing French civilians outside the Sheraton hotel in Karachi; and the kidnap and murder of an American journalist.

Since mid-July 2005, sectarian tensions in the Gilgit area have risen sharply. Violent incidents include kidnap, murder and a suspected sectarian attack on a bus travelling from Gilgit to Rawalpindi, which killed four and injured six. Tension in Gilgit City is particularly high. Until further notice, you should only fly into Gilgit, and avoid going into the centre of town. Caution should be exercised when travelling by road along the Karakorum Highway (KKH). You are advised to join a police guarded convoy and travel in daylight hours on the KKH.

There have been intermittent surges in sectarian violence throughout Pakistan since the beginning of 2004, resulting in over 200 deaths and many injuries. Such incidents often lead to further violent clashes on the streets. Attacks have occurred in Karachi, Islamabad, Quetta and the Northern Areas. The cities of central Punjab, as well as Quetta and Karachi, are at particular risk from Sunni-Shia violence. These attacks have included suicide bombings. Visitors of recognisably Western origin should avoid the vicinity of mosques at busy prayer times, especially on Fridays.

Recent sectarian attacks in Pakistan include an attack in May 2005 on an Islamic shrine in Islamabad causing numerous deaths. A few days later, a fatal attack against a Shia mosque in Karachi led to widespread rioting in the city, including an attack on a KFC fast food outlet, causing further deaths. Sectarian tensions in Gilgit, including fatal riots in January 2005, have resulted in frequent and sudden impositions of curfews over the past twelve months.

The Pakistani army is involved in counter-terrorist military operations in Waziristan. We advise against all travel to areas where there are ongoing military operations. There is also militant activity in northern and western Baluchistan, and near to the Line of Control in Kashmir. There was a bomb attack in central Quetta (Baluchistan) in December 2004, which killed at least 10 people. There have been a number of attacks on the Baluchistan railway system.

Visitors of visibly Western origin should not linger in public places. The Consular sections of the High Commission in Islamabad (0092 51 201 2000) and the Deputy High Commission in Karachi (0092 21 582 7000) can provide advice on specific local security advice including travel in those cities.

Please read the Security and General Tips and Risk of Terrorism when Travelling Overseas pages on the FCO website for further information and advice.

Criminal and other Violence

Criminal violence is common, especially in Karachi. This includes armed car-jacking, robbery, kidnap and murder. Travellers have been offered drugged food and then robbed. You should be very careful about, and confident of, your personal security arrangements throughout your visit.

Much of Baluchistan, rural Sindh and the North West Frontier Province, including the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas and Agencies, have a high incidence of lawlessness. In January 2005, there were incidents of tribal violence and mortar attacks on the Sui gas plant and pipeline in Baluchistan. There was serious fighting between local tribesmen and security forces in the Dera Bugti region of Baluchistan on 17 March 2005, resulting in many fatalities. We advise against all but essential travel to northern and western Baluchistan, including Quetta and the Sui/Dera Bugti area.

Other Crime

There is an active black market in forged and stolen passports. Credit card fraud is common.

Political Situation

Political demonstrations and large gatherings of people for political or religious purposes occur regularly in major cities. These usually pass off peacefully, but there may be risks of clashes with police or political rivals.

Opposition parties (Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy) have called for a nationwide strike on Friday 9 September in protest against President Musharraf. We recommend that you avoid political demonstrations and large crowds assembled for political purposes.

Nationalist militants in Baluchistan have carried out fatal attacks in public areas and at targeted government and military infrastructures. There is a high risk of militancy in the Swat Valley and Lower Dir.

Local Travel

We advise against all travel to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas adjacent to Afghanistan, including Waziristan and the Khyber Pass. We advise against all but essential travel to the Swat Valley in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), northern and western Baluchistan, including Quetta, and the Sui/Dera Bugti area, and to all border areas except for official crossing points.

We recommend that any travel to Peshawar in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) is only undertaken in a group organised by a locally established travel agent and that you only stay in accommodation where you are satisfied adequate security arrangements are in place.

Sectarian tension in Gilgit City is particularly high. Until further notice, travellers should avoid the centre of Gilgit. We recommend that travellers arrive in Gilgit by air wherever possible. Direct road travel from the airport north to Baltistan and the Hunza valley is possible. Caution should be exercised when travelling by road along the Karakorum Highway (KKH). You are advised to join a police guarded convoy and travel in daylight hours on the KKH.

Except for official border crossing-points, the authorities prohibit travel by foreigners within 10 miles of Pakistan’s international borders and the Line of Control, and within 30 miles of the Afghan border in the Northern Areas.

If you really must travel to these regions, you or your travel agent should contact the authorities in advance. They may arrange police protection as necessary and will advise whether you need a No Objection Certificate issued by the Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Rail Travel

In early 2005, nationalist militants repeatedly planted bombs on the railway in Baluchistan. You should avoid using the rail network in Baluchistan.

There was a serious accident in Sindh on 13 July, involving three trains, resulting in over 130 deaths and more than 200 other casualties. Prior to this incident, Pakistan’s railways have had a reasonable safety record.

Road Safety

Take particular care on long road journeys and when travelling cross-country. Local driving standards are erratic, especially at night, road conditions are poor and there is a risk of car-jacking.

When driving, it is advisable to lock all doors and keep the windows up. Use well-travelled, well-lit routes where possible. We recommend you do not purchase anything from street vendors or have contact with beggars while travelling by car.

faisaluno #280 nice article. thanks for posting.

Ajeya, aha_snark, arjun_m

Some of this back-and-forth reads a lot like pharisaic arguing over what the meaning of ``is`` is. Could you please put in simple words the point under debate?

Thanks.

Re: #279 by Aha_Snark

[It appears that you feel that I have shamefully been trying to cover up. In as specific language as possible, can you tell me exactly what it is I have covered up? ]


Okay, one more time. Although I think it`s unnecessary because you know it very well.


Well Arjun was making the point that because there is 0% Jews in Pakistan, there is no reason for them to hate them other than their wannabe-Arab-ness.

You said that that is NOT the case, because people CAN INDEED hate other people even if their minority population is close to 0% - you cited the Indians as an example - Indians hate the Chinese although the Chinese are about 0% of the Indian poulation. So although it is an absurdity, people will do absurd things.

In other words - the wannabe-arab-ness reason that Arjun cited for the Paki hatred for the Jews is a bogus reason.

That was your post #48.


But after I pointed out that there is a non-absurd, logical reason for Indians to hate the Chinese, unlike the Pakistani/Jewish situation,you completely changed your story, and started denying that you had ever contradicted Arjun.

That`s about it.

impressions of another touring english journalist. he is wrong on religion of cricket ranking behind islam. i think both have an equal darja in pak:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0,6903,1635403,00.html


A young boy rushes towards me in the busy streets of Shadman Colony, a colourful, vibrant district just outside central Lahore. He has just received some exciting news from his brother: `He came to the house to tell me there was an Englishman in the street, and that he has come to Pakistan to follow the cricket.` With throngs of locals already following my progress through this bustling neighbourhood, news of an Englishman`s presence was spreading fast.

In the poorer districts of Lahore, a foreign traveller is rare enough, but a visitor from England, and especially one who likes cricket, is a dream for the locals. A stream of questions follows: `How are you feeling in Pakistan?` `Are you a batsman or bowler?` `What is your opinion of Shoaib Akhtar?`

The area was hosting a performance of qawwali, a form of Islamic devotional music hugely popular in Pakistan. Featuring a lead singer who whips up the audience with impassioned renditions of poetry and dramatic hand gestures, a thunderous chorus of backing singers, tabla and a harmonium, it`s a remarkably expressive way of celebrating their faith.

Uninhibited, bold and spectacular - it`s how they like their music, and also how they like their cricket. `Ninety-nine per cent of Pakistanis like big hitting,` Ishrat Ahmed, 14, explains. `Shahid Afridi and Inzamam-ul-Haq are the most popular players here.`

...In a country defined by Islam, cricket is like a second religion. It permeates everyday life, through an obsessive following of the national side`s fortunes, endless games of street cricket and animated discussions about the leading players. It all puts England`s fleeting Ashes fever into perspective.

The fact that so few England supporters will be here to experience this remarkable cricket culture is a great shame. For any England fan on their first tour here, it won`t take long to realise there is a misconception about Pakistan in much of the West. Despite being feared as a place where Western tourists receive a snarling glance wherever they go, Pakistan is home to people who could not be more welcoming.

In accordance with Islamic teachings, a `maihman` (guest) is seen as an expression of God`s blessing, and this goes a long way to explaining why any foreign visitor is greeted with a reverential handshake whenever they make a new acquaintance. People from all levels of society go to extraordinary lengths to make travellers enjoy their stay.

Re: # 278
re: ajeya.

It appears that you feel that I have shamefully been trying to cover up. In as specific language as possible, can you tell me exactly what it is I have covered up?

Aha_Snark

Re: #276 by Aha_Snark

[My original statement in post #48 says: ``the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z [is absurd].``

I stand by this proposition. Nothing more or less. ]


Well if you stand by it, you should not have been trying to contradict it by arguing with Arjun who was making the exact same point.

It doesn`t matter what I think of you or what other people on this forum think about you. Because we`re all anonymous here.

The important thing is whether you can respect yourself after attempting to cover up like this.

Re: # 232
re: masanamuthu:

This is a really interesting article. As I see it, a number of interesting points of view:

`We live in a democracy,` he said. `That`s why we can use all the journalistic methods we want to. Satire is accepted in this country, and you can make caricatures. Religion shouldn`t set any barriers on that sort of expression. This doesn`t mean that we wish to insult any Muslims.`

AND

``Do you really feel that the prophet Mohammed is completely infallible, and that every Muslim in Europe in 2005 should follow the way of life the prophet had 1400 years ago, as the Koran dictates? The provocation is necessary to spark the debate``

AND

Hlayhel said he did not understand how such illustrations could be printed with reference to freedom of expression, when Denmark did not tolerate the slightest sign of anti-Semitism.

AND

Lars Refn, one of the cartoonists who participated in the newspaper`s call to arms, said he actually agreed with Hlayhel. Therefore, his cartoon did not feature the prophet Mohammed, but a normal Danish schoolboy Mohammed, who had written a Persian text on his schoolroom`s blackboard.

`On the blackboard it says in Persian with Arabic letters that `Jyllands-Posten`s journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs`,` Refn said. `Of course we shouldn`t let ourselves be censored by a few extremist Muslims, but Jyllands-Posten`s only goal is to vent the fires as soon as they get the opportunity. There`s nothing constructive in that.`

Nice point and counterpoint. There`s an FP article here.

Re: # 271
re: ajeya:

My original statement in post #48 says: ``the proposition that country X has to have q% of group Z in it before it can validly hold a negative opinion of group Z [is absurd].``

I stand by this proposition. Nothing more or less.

My understanding of arjun_m`s proposition is in post 254.

Aha_Snark

re: about global jehad
Here is a good article about global Islamic jehad and Pak`s prominent place in that jehad:
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200511040840.asp
Excerpt:
(Third, nations that intrigue with jihadists must be identified as the enemies of civilization. We often forget that there are now left only four major nation-states in the world that either by intent or indifference allow radical Islamists to find sanctuary.

If Pakistan were seriously to disavow terrorism and not see it as an asset in its rivalry with India and as a means to vent anti-Western angst, then Osama bin Laden, Dr. Zawahiri, and their lieutenants would be hunted down tomorrow.)
Sridhar

Re: # 269
re: arjun_m

///Let me make it clear..
The fact: 80% of Pakistanis dislike Jews. That much is clear from the poll.///

Ooh. The poll represents represents clear facts. We`ll return to that in just a moment.

///the possible explanations:

1. Pakistanis have some historical problems with Jews who lived among them, like they did with hindus(partition and all)...That`s unlikely because there are - and have been - close to 0% jews in Pakiland..

2. Pakiland went to war with Israel like India did with China. Didn`t happen..so that can`t be it...///

Well, these are the possible explanations that you can come up with.

///So tell me...why do the pakis hate the jews?///

Well, I don`t know for sure, but I tried to point you to possible reasons way back in post #248. With clicky links and everything. Visit them yet ?

///Somehow it`s ok for the 80% of pakis to hate jews....///

Nope. Not okay at all.

///what`s hateful is for someone to call them on their hatred...
To brrow from Jon Stewart, the facts are hateful...
< photograph of guy wearing ``Kill Jews`` bandanna >///


Absolutely. That`s a clear evidence of hate speech.

Oh, and returning to the poll that represented ``clear facts`` , I put (and reminded you about) some questions to you on it in posts #31, #48, #227, #248 and #273. Since you`re referring to the same poll/report again, that must mean that you`re about to answer soon.

Aha_Snark
hoipolloi@gmail.com