Why Doesn’t the World Care?

Aamir - my personal feeling is that you have too much hatred within yourself. You need help, believe me. May I suggest a shrink?

Mohar

No, not an education to create hatred, but to create the basic level of common knowledge required to understand and interact with the wider populace.

It is astonishing how often one runs into Indians whose understanding of the majority community and their ways is far less than zero. That cannot be good for any nation.

IMHO, without understanding there can be no sympathy, without sympathy there can be no community, and without community, subversion is a natural consequence, no matter how many `a few people` you take care of.

Ajeya #352, {``How about a few bombs in Jumma Masjid on Eid?``}
Good idea. The British wanted to tear it down but reneged on their promise. I just can`t stand their Imam Bukhari, the mullah who runs the place.

{``How about trying my suggestion for the next 500 years?``}
Now that`s long-term thinking - make it an even K just to be safe!

{``Ban the Haj pilgrimage, saving tons of money that is being spent on Saudia Airlines. Save the Rs. 150 crore Haj subsidy. If any Muslim so much as says ``Boo``, lock him up for 30 years.``}

Damn! I didn`t know that? Anything to hurt the Saudis - go for it man. :)
BTW BOO

{``There are these terahertz frequency scanning machines. They see through clothes and everything. So, a pants-drop-down test to check for Muslimness is not necessary most of the time.``}

Ajeya, why do you take the fun out of everything? I hate technology. :)

{``No voting rights for Muslims in India. If any Christian wants both the right to convert and reservations, nail him to the cross in a public place so that the Christians will learn to shut up.``}

It`s about time. Muslims can`t vote anyplace else, so why should they vote only in India? You will try anything to usurp those born-again Christian tourist dollars, won`t you?

{``Free-fire zone is a valid response in times of war. When the jihadis declare war on India, they should be prepared for the response. After all, all of India is Dar-ul-Harb according to Muslims. Let us show them what a true war zone looks like.``}

That reminds of Churchill`s famous speech ``It will be long. It will be hard. And it will be bloody.`` Immediately Churchill`s rating among women went up. Ajey, you are quite a pol yourself. :)

{``It is weak-kneed hand-wringing Hindus like you who are the bane of India. Did the Muslims try a bomb in Ahmedabad, Gujarat? No, because they know exactly what they will get in return. ``}

Arey, Ajeya Bhai, you are getting carried away. The Moose Limbs did not try a bomb in Ahmedabad because it is already quite gutted. A jihadi bomb would elicit the sympathies of overseas Dunking Donusts and Motel 6 Gujjus and result in billions of dollars for reconstruction for a brand new sparkling metropolis of Modiganj, the new name of Ahmedabad.

Relax, enjoy. Life is sweet courtesy of Mullah Parsi Papa High School Walla

#364 by rsridhar on November 9, 2005 7:57am PT


It too wants civilian reactors for its energy needs.


Wanting and getting are two different things...What is the big deal about this deal anyway? I don`t see any desis lobbying for it....They`re trying to get Dubya to visit India..

No Indian-style nuclear deal for Pakistan

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: The United States has no intention of offering Pakistan the kind of nuclear cooperation deal it signed with India in July this year, according to Nicholas Burns, under secretary of state.

Testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday, Burns, who was in New Delhi two weeks ago, when asked if a similar deal may be demanded by Pakistan, replied, “We have an important relationship with Pakistan. We are not offering the same deal to Pakistan, for a variety of reasons. As said by Secretary (of State Condoleezza) Rice, it is necessary to dehyphenate our policy in South Asia. For a long term, it has been a zero sum nature of relationship in the region. It is time to have a full-blown relationship with Pakistan in counter-terrorism, but with India, we can have a separate relationship.”

He said the July 18 accord with India, signed when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh paid an official visit to Washington, is a strategic relationship in the civil nuclear field. He disclosed that Rice met President Pervez Musharraf at the UN and briefed him about the deal with India. Asked if Pakistan would accept the emerging relationship between the US and India, he replied he could not say if Pakistan is happy about it or Gen Musharraf is happy about it, but some Pakistani officials have stated that they would like the US to have a similar relationship with their country. He called the deal with India a “unique arrangement”.

After his testimony, in an informal chat with journalists covering the hearing, he was asked by this correspondent what Gen Musharraf had said to Rice when she briefed him on the Indo-US nuclear agreement of July 18. He declined an answer. It is learnt that Pakistan’s reaction so far has been “businesslike”.

Re: # 362 kaal
[... Pakistan does a far far better job of educating its minorities...]

You mean the K for kafir education[to borrow the term from Jay]? No thanks.... we are doing fine the way we educate our minorities or the way the minorities educate us[the best schools are christian-run]......

Like I said - all we have to do is remove the blinkers and dump the sel-defeating political-correctness - we have to recognize that there are substantial number of subversive elements within community of muslims - we need take care of such people ...... That`s all.....

Otherwise - we are doing fine.....

re:#363 by arjun_m
Pakis were very enthusiastic about Gas pipeline (someone even wrote an article in Chow). Suddely it has fizzled out. Why? As i had predicted, Uncle Sam put his foot down. Now Pak won`t get its free lunch (the transit fee). But it is now fuming at the prospect of US built civilian reactors. It too wants civilian reactors for its energy needs.
Pak seems to be India`s alter ego. It likes to do forthwith what India does!
It thinks there is no H and D lost here. I think the whold world is laughing.
Sridhar

This is rich...First pakis tell us they don`t need help...then they whine about not receiving help..

Help in kind is a joke...it`s a subsidy for the manufacturers in donor countries...they`ll give one tent at a price that would buy 10 tents in Pakiland..

$9.5m of $2bn world pledges received so far

By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has so far received a paltry sum of less than $ 10 million in cash for earthquake relief operation from the world capitals against over $ 2 billion pledges, it is learnt. A government spokesman when contacted on Tuesday reluctantly confirmed to The News that only $ 9.5 million had so far been transferred to the country’s kitty by the world capitals.

Details of the cash inflow as shared by a senior Prime Minister Secretariat source on condition of anonymity reveal that Malaysia and China top the list by giving Pakistan one million dollars each. None of the world’s biggest economies except USA are included in the list of those who have given cash, no matter how little, to Pakistan. The US gave $ 100,000.

Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Brunei, Nepal, Maldives and Bhutan are among those countries that have translated their pledges into cash. Afghanistan has given $ 500,000; Austria $ 500,000; Azerbaijan $ 500,000; Brunei $ 600,000; Nepal $ 50,000; Maldives $ 30,000; and Bhutan $ 50,000.

The government is pursuing hard through the Foreign Office and the EAD to get the pledges of $ 2.1 billion translated into cash transfer, but it is not getting much encouraging response with most of the countries insisting to contribute in kind and services.

The USA has pledged $ 156 m, Saudi Arabia $ 133 million; Britain $ 58.3m; Turkey $ 150m; United Arab Emirate $ 100m; Kuwait $ 100m; Japan $ 70m; Germany $ 30.7m; China $ 20m; Canada $ 49m; Australia $ 10m; Norway $ 26m; Sweden $ 15.3m; Switzerland $ 15.6m; Netherlands $ 26m; Denmark $ 13.7m etc. The authorities are completely unsure as to what would be they finally getting out of the total committed $ 2.1 billion. ``Perhaps peanuts,`` a source apprehended.

With regard to happiness etc., the determining factor is not how you treat someone, it is how you educate the person. Pakistan does a far far better job of educating its minorities than we do with ours.

Re:dharma and rsridhar,

Gentlemen, I suggest that we ignore this pakistani parsi fool Behram or Besharam. This guy and his family has been so brutalized in Pakistan that he has lost his mind and mindlessly parrots support for muslims. It is like an abused woman who keeps getting raped and beaten up by her abusive husband but still keeps hanging on to him and even protects him. After all, if you are getting raped and have no other option, might as well lie back and enjoy it. It is the sign of extreme slavery to try and make your master happy in the hope that he will show you some mercy once in a while. You can see that in roadshows where a pet monkey will perform tricks to make his master happy.

That is the same situation with Behram. He is a slave in Pakistan, a pet monkey of the muslims. The tragedy is that he is so conditioned by his circumstances, he does not even realize his own slavery. For him, slavery is normal. If he complains about Pakistan, most likely he and his family would be attacked and killed in Pakistan. The women in his house would get abducted and raped. Hence he has been conditioned from childhood to lick the feet of muslims and behave that the muslim $hit smells like ice-cream on a 24/7 basis.

On top of that he has the delusion that muslims will give any respect to Zorastrianism based on monotheism. In Iran, the muslims wiped the parsis out and threw them into the ocean. It is us hindus who gave them a chance to survive. Of course, now this moron wants to support muslims against hindus, which just shows what a low class, ingrate he is.

re: Yousuf Yohanna`s conversion to Islam
Yousuf Yohanna was a prominent Christian Cricketer in Pakistani crikent team. Often people have quoted his presence as a sign of Pak`s secular credentials. It was shocking to hear of his conversion to Islam. People made it out to be voluntary. It is more likely that he felt this was the only way to further his career. As a christian minority in Pak, he had no career prospects and his life was insecure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yousuf_Youhana
(Yousuf was one of the few Christians to represent Pakistan, but announced in September 2005 that he had converted to Islam. He changed his name from Yousuf Youhana to Mohammad Yousuf on his conversion. Media reports suggested he converted to better his chances of gaining the captaincy, but he denied it, and said that he had embraced Islam three years earlier but kept it secret.)
And, this from an interactive site:
http://www.pakp.com/2005/09/yousuf-youhana-embraces-islam-news.html
(Teammates confirm Yousuf Youhana’s conversion to Islam
By Waheed Khan
I read this news in The News Pakistan dated Saturday September 17, 2005-- Shaaban 12, 1426 A.H.
This is very shocking news for the entire cricket fans that one of Pakistan`s star batsman converted to Islam? This might be joyful for the Pakistani cricket team but it is very sad for the Pakistani Christians and Christians all over the world who prayed day and night for his success, and when ever he played, many cricket lovers had fasting for his success.
One is surprised what are the reasons behind his conversion? Was he threatened by the team or close friends that this is the only way he could survive in Pakistan team and may be he would get a chance to take over as a captain in Pakistani team in future.
In this regard Zee News reported last time that:
Zee News Lahore, Apr 03:
Is Saeed Anwar trying to convert Yousuf Youhana?
Quote
``Lahore, Apr 03: Is former Pakistani opener Saeed Anwar trying to convert the team`s vice-captain Yousuf Youhana?
Pakistani media reports claim the stylish former opener is coaxing Youhana, a Christian, to embrace Islam and that has spawned large-scale debate in the country.`` Unquote).
The above is an eg of ethnic cleansing. It does not have to be violent. Sometimes, it can be subtle. A threat here, a bribe there, an offer of promotion (or as in Youhana`s case, captaincy of the team).
Sridhar

Re: # 349

Dear rsridhar:

Those Pakistani sugar canes are really working now. Drip-drip, Drip-drip. Get that electronics guy from banged galore to give some low voltage to your empty skull. Those rocks need to be aligned, I suppose.

But, again, some people need their clocks also watched. Do you feel those rocks turn at 12:00 noon? You, poor soul you.

Respectfully submitted,

#355

Pakistans media, like its government in a kneee jerk response of having to `break bad news`, and probably with its mind on how gleeful Indians would be, started off with small figures.

After sometime, when the `news` had sunk in, merely increasing the death toll a little further, would do no harm. And it did nt.

Imagine the scenario where the Paki media said ` half a million are feared dead` and half a million more will die in a few months. What an impact would that have made?

Kofi Annan and hid grand dad too, would have run around asking for aid.

#346 by behram1 on November 7, 2005 7:10pm PT


And if you really want to know the depth of it. Parsees are mono-theistic, and so are the muslims.


yup..that`s the key...mono-theistic religions always get along with each other..

I posted this in a differrent board. Maybe this place is more apt..

Other than finding it unbelievable a ``minority Parsi`` could vehemently support Pakistan, the posters need to analyze the reasons..

There could possibly be two reasons.

1. Being a ``minority`` does not always imply that you get the raw deal. Socially sdvanced countries and societies have legal and constitutional safeguards for their citizens to practice whatever they want. Religious minorities for the most part don`t feel discriminated in such societies..

2. Using ``state terror`` in the form of legal and constitutional restrictions to enforce ``minorities`` have no equal rights (essentially the status of ``dhimmis`` as mentioned in Quran) and the option is either ``death`` or ``migration``.

Examples: The general situation of minorities in the ``Islamic world``, The ``spanish ultimatum to Jews and Muslims`` in 1490s, and recently in Godhra, Gujarat, the Muslim councillors claim that they`d sit in the BJP camp even if the BJP is not willing to take them.. That`s because of the slogan ``Pakistan or Kabaristhan``..

We would ideally like ``case 1`` to be practised all over the world. But as the ``terrorist strikes`` based on ``islamic documents/ideals`` increase, even the ``socially advanced`` countries are moving in the direction of ``case 2``.

So people need to prepare themselves for getting ``baptised`` if they or their future generations want to stick around in the west..

Thanks Parthaab.

However, Katrina was not a success story in terms of how it was handled by the govt. Rita was perhaps a better one - more hype created immediately and proactively and hence the damage was controlled more effectively.

Regardless of how Pakistani media may have acted in the first week (in terms of casualties) the world media, UN and other humanitarian agencies have been warning of the 3m homeless and the `second wave of deaths`. Sadly not much has been done - which reinforces the hypothesis of the article. Media - good or bad - is one of the key contributing factors.

# 324,


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4134255.stm

Thats Sri Lanka alone for you! Why did nt the Paki media say that in `this` village alone, 20000 are feared missing and 20000 may die in the cold? Why does nt the Paki media make up its mind on what it wants the public reaction to be like?

Of course, the image of a 30 foot wall of tsunami water itself should have made an impression.

But look at what the US did to make a flood and a hurricane look like? It publicised FEMAs demand for 50000 body bags. After 9/11, it said some 20000 were `trapped` and missing.

And why does politics have to mix with religion, giving Pakistani religion a stink? Is nt that reason enough for a already anti muslim western media to cringe at talk of aid?

# 324,


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4134255.stm

Thats Sri Lanka alone for you! Why did nt the Paki media say that in `this` village alone, 20000 are feared missing and 20000 may die in the cold? Why does nt the Paki media make up its mind on what it wants the public reaction to be like?

Of course, the image of a 30 foot wall of tsunami water itself should have made an impression.

But look at what the US did to make a flood and a hurricane look like? It publicised FEMAs demand for 50000 body bags. After 9/11, it said some 20000 were `trapped` and missing.

And why does politics have to mix with religion, giving Pakistani religion a stink? Is nt that reason enough for a already anti muslim western media to cringe at talk of aid?

The more you listen to Islamic fundamentalists like Behram, the more you realize that there is only one way to deal with these people - as Britain, France and Germany are beginning to realize. I thought that the following post by Harimau on another Forum (Bomb blasts in Delhi) was very much to the point:

[Aha_Snark,

We have tried for 55 years (after the Republic of India was proclaimed) to mollycoddle Muslims. The net result is we have bombs in New Delhi the day before Deepavali. How about a few bombs in Jumma Masjid on Eid? (Pakistanis probably would be doing it in Shia mosques and imambaras.)

How about trying my suggestion for the next 500 years? Ban the Haj pilgrimage, saving tons of money that is being spent on Saudia Airlines. Save the Rs. 150 crore Haj subsidy. If any Muslim so much as says ``Boo``, lock him up for 30 years.

There are these terahertz frequency scanning machines. They see through clothes and everything. So, a pants-drop-down test to check for Muslimness is not necessary most of the time.

No voting rights for Muslims in India. If any Christian wants both the right to convert and reservations, nail him to the cross in a public place so that the Christians will learn to shut up.

Free-fire zone is a valid response in times of war. When the jihadis declare war on India, they should be prepared for the response. After all, all of India is Dar-ul-Harb according to Muslims. Let us show them what a true war zone looks like.

It is weak-kneed hand-wringing Hindus like you who are the bane of India. Did the Muslims try a bomb in Ahmedabad, Gujarat? No, because they know exactly what they will get in return.]

#336 by kaalchakra

`` So instead of dismissing the entire Pakistani approach as unfair, or deriding it as `dhimmitude,` Indians need to closely study it and implement it at home. ``

Hey I am all for that. Ending up with only 2% muslims in India is an attractive proposition. Where do I sign-up ?

re:kaalchakra`s post
(Pakistani minorities report themselves to be far happier and much more satisfied with their existing status than do the minorities in India. Culturally, Pakistani minorities are one with the Pakistani nation. A Pakistani Christian, Parsi or even Hindu who has learnt some Arabic or Persian is not half much a rarity as an Indian Christian, Parsi, or Muslim who has studied, say, Sanskrit or classical Tamil.)
Ha, ha, ha.
Man, u are funny.
I am sure Paki minorities are happy for the simple reason that they are still breathing!
And, are they to be admired for learning Arabic or Persian (since when have these languages become synonymous with Paki nationality?) when that is the more politically correct thing to do. My question is: can a hindu in Pak learn sanskrit if he wants to?
Get a life man. First let Pakis explain to me how 20% hindu population in Pak became a mere 2% or even less. Ever heard the word ethnic cleansing. It takes many forms: forcing to convert (as happened during and immediately after partition), making someone`s life so miserable that he/she is forced to convert or migrate out (as has happened and is still happening in Pakistan). A few are left as testimony that Pak too has minorities. Big deal.
Here is an interesting article from another forum for starters:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-2/sridhar.html
While on the subject of ethnic cleansing, u may want to revisit the horrors of ethnic cleansing of Bangladeshi men and women in 1071 by the Paki Army:
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
Sridhar

re:#348 by dharma
(So this is what dimmitude does to parsees? everyday you learn something new)
Dimmitude does something more. Hence this guys last name Aatish-e-g@@nd.
Sridhar

Re: # 346
dear besharam,
so let me get this straight.
``Parsees were invited to Karachi in the early 1800`s, by the British after they won the war with the Sindhi Talpurs. Parsees were employed in the railroad, and most of them stayed there in Pakistan after partition. Parsees are mono-theistic, and so are the muslims.
I will explain why Pakistani Parsees are 100% pro-Pakistan. ``

So this is what dimmitude does to parsees? everyday you learn something new

Re: # 343
[.... And we might be subjecting the majority to unnecessary, even greatly counterproductive, costs. .....]

Are you saying that minorities in India are NOT patriotic and loyal? .... Come on - just listen to yourself..... I mean - if the world is going to emulate pakis [and saudis and host of other bedouins] as the model for minority affair - then we are all doomed....

Never mind what Behram or Ijaz say here in chowk..... I am sure they are happy in pakiland... I heard there are even a few jews living in pakistan, Iran, Iraq .... and I am sure they are ``happy`` too.... and speaking of happiness, one study says - bangladeshis are happiest on face of earth - so are you going ask all countries be like Bdesh?.....

For every ``happy`` Ijaz - there are thounsands christians being persecuted, for every Kaneria - there are thousand hindus living in fear - afraid to have even hindu names.... paki hindus visiting India alomsot always stay back ......

++++

But I understand where you are coming from..... The muslim problem in India is not because of ``equal-rights`` .... it`s because of the ostrich mentality on part our leaders..... if you let mullahs and criminals represent muslims - then this is what going to happen... as our friends in UK and other europeans are findig out now.....

But these are separate issues.....

Re: # 344

Dear shameless:

I will explain why Pakistani Parsees are 100% pro-Pakistan.

Parsees were invited to Karachi in the early 1800`s, by the British after they won the war with the Sindhi Talpurs. Along with the Parsees, they also invited the Christians. Mostly christians from Goa came to Karachi and made Karachi a thriving business community. Parsees were employed in the railroad, and most of them stayed there in Pakistan after partition.

Even the Hindus who stayed, love Pakistan.

And if you really want to know the depth of it. Parsees are mono-theistic, and so are the muslims. Some might say that almost all of Zoroastriansm has been incorporated into Islam. We have no issue with their religion. Heck, Akbar, even invited the Parsees in his deen-e-elahi.

So there you have it in a nut-shell. I hope this has enlightened you somewhat.

BTW... Dogs are considered very noble in our faith. May be you did not know this as well.

Respectfully submitted,

Dharma

In general (not with regard to Muslim or Hindu or any other women), freedom, equality, individual accountability, etc are not at all universal values.

Submission to external forces, slavery to stronger others, dependence, followership, freedom from individual responsibility, and the resulting predictability and routinization of life are equally important and valued goals, for many much more desirable than freedom, ownership of responsibility etc.

The mistake we make is to believe that all want what we want. We need to forthwith get out of this flawed Nehruvian/Gandhian mindset, and start giving people what they actually value. That is the only basis for a fair, stable, and mutually satisfying relationship.

Better late than never, we need to learn about what makes different people happy, and keeps them satisfied. To the extent possible, that would be the goal of any state.

``So, by insisting on the `equal-rights` model for our minorities, we might be doing our minorities a grave injustice. And we might be subjecting the majority to unnecessary, even greatly counterproductive, costs. ``

This is at best a conjecture. Even if you assume that is plausible, there are lot of variables to consider. For example lack of what rights make the minorities most happy? Right to vote, right to practise religion, right to own property etc. Crazy as it sounds you might have some merit to it. I always wondered about women in islam, that is a disenfrachised group if there is any. And they seem to be bigger supporters of islam than the males atleast on the surface, just like our besharam is to the cause of pakistan. I have feeling it is all relative. If you have nothing even small things make you happy. So starve them of rights, then even talking to them on equal basis makes them happy campers.

Mohar, Dharma

This is an interesting issue that deserves more attention than we give to it. Consequently, we may be seriously jeopardizing our own welfare.

We Indians take it for granted that minorities in Pakistan would be unhappy, and dissatisfied with their `lack of equal rights.`` Few Indians can understand how a Parsi, or a Christian, or a Hindu could be loyal to or patriotic about a state that was made and exists for the benefit of its Muslims.

We have not carried out a reality check. Repeatedly, at least in interacting with the elite of Pakistani minorities, that Indian assumption does not hold: without a doubt, `equal rights` as we understand them, are nowhere as important to Pakistani minorities as we think they ought to be to all minorities.

Behram # 340 provides an eloquent statement. But the point has been made in the past by others, including by Ijaz_gul.

These are not stupid or brainwashed people. And if brainwashing people makes them happy, then what is the morality of not brainwashing people?

So, by insisting on the `equal-rights` model for our minorities, we might be doing our minorities a grave injustice. And we might be subjecting the majority to unnecessary, even greatly counterproductive, costs.

Re: # 340 #besharam

``And who has given you that right, may I ask? Do I need permission from Indian scums like you for the love that I have for my motherland? Or the lack there of? ``
Well i am a curious person, thats why i wonder why house dogs like you feel that they are lions when they are outside. You dont need my permission. That is your nature.

``It is only the Hindu in you who thinks in terms of class. I have never thought in such terms. I must admit, though, that I have always considered Indians as ugly. And that is because I am from the gorgeous Iranian race``

If i were you i would hide my face and dont get out of house much - A pathan may take a liking to your gorgeous body and kidnap you. Who will you complain to then, you little parsi dog?

``[If your country can not treat you as equal to it majority citizens, why i should treat you as equal to a pakistani. you are half a pakistani as far as i am concerned if that.] As if I consider your opinion about me valuable. Give me a freaking break. Don`t dignify yourself by having an argument with me. Please keep your opinion to yourself, I do not need it. ``

It is not a opinion about you per se. It is about all the second class citizen of pakistan.

``A Parsee belonging to the under privileged class must be the biggest joke of the year... ``
You are privileged class in pakistan? Do you have any political power? Dont delude yourself.

``Yes, please continue with your sympathy because that is the only way you would get your ego satisfied. I full sympathize with you and pity you``

We dont need a poor soul like you. We have regular full blooded, first class citizens, who dont take shit from any scum like you for satisifying our egos.

Re: # 340

Dear shameless:

Here you go again, with your selective and convoluted thoughts.

[I am not confusing your love for pakistan for love of islam. I am questioning your love for pakistan.] And who has given you that right, may I ask? Do I need permission from Indian scums like you for the love that I have for my motherland? Or the lack there of?

[You are second calss citizen of your country and so you should get second class status outside your country too. thats why i call you besharam.] It is only the Hindu in you who thinks in terms of class. I have never thought in such terms. I must admit, though, that I have always considered Indians as ugly. And that is because I am from the gorgeous Iranian race.

[If your country can not treat you as equal to it majority citizens, why i should treat you as equal to a pakistani. you are half a pakistani as far as i am concerned if that.] As if I consider your opinion about me valuable. Give me a freaking break. Don`t dignify yourself by having an argument with me. Please keep your opinion to yourself, I do not need it.

Your convoluted thought is that one`s love for its motherland should be questioned just because he can not become a President. Your token PM should be referred to the Sikhs who want Khalistan separated from India. And yes! who murdered your PM Indira Gandhi? May we ask? Were they not sikhs?

A Parsee belonging to the under privileged class must be the biggest joke of the year...
[And ofcourse since you belong to unerprivileged class I understand that you have to justify you existence by reading about similar injustices around the world.]

Yes, please continue with your sympathy because that is the only way you would get your ego satisfied. I full sympathize with you and pity you]

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 338 besharam1

``You are absolutely confused in mixing my love for Pakistan with love for some religion. And that is the dilema I see with most Indians. Please provide arguments on the merits of the issue and leave religion out. ``

I am not confusing your love for pakistan for love of islam. I am questioning your love for pakistan. You are second calss citizen of your country and so you should get second class status outside your country too. thats why i call you besharam. If your country can not treat you as equal to it majority citizens, why i should treat you as equal to a pakistani. you are half a pakistani as far as i am concerned if that. The point is that whether you can win an election and become president or not, the question is where you can contest at all. Just because the chance is less, you want to close it to all the furtue generation of minorities who may dream of becoming the presidents and leading the nation. If that logic was followed we would not have seen a sikh PM in india. And ofcourse since you belong to unerprivileged class I understand that you have to justify you existence by reading about similar injustices around the world. I full sympathize with you and pity you

shamelessly submitted

Re: # 336 kaalchakra
Assimilation of the minorities by the majority by force is definitely one way to achieve uniformity and seeming lack of dissent as in the case of China and Pakistan. But the definition of majority changes. it maybe based on religion/race/ideas/... etc and if the solution is just assimilation/supression of minorities it is not a long term solution. You can see that in pakistan. Majority want sharia law, majority want religion in their govt and majority want madarasas,.. thats whay they get. It supresses the minority opinion. In the long term freedom not only unleashes creativity in people, it is also moral thing to do.

Re: # 335

Dear Shameless:

Thank you for a response.

If we take your thoughts (about religious minorities, being President of their country), a bit further then almost all 56 countries (that are muslim majority nations) is out of the question. According to your theory then, all minorities have [settle for less rights either because they believe they are lesser humans than the majority or because they are scared of the majority or for any other reason.]

Then, in the remaining 138 countries or so, we see in some countries, there are christian majorities. For example, in Latin America, we have almost 100% christian population. And I do not think that minorities stand a chance of being a President in those countries.

Coming to Africa, we see a constant struggle between two major religions, christianity and islam. And that also, leaves out the religious minority.

Coming to east asian countries, I do not see that the orientals are allowing any non-oriental (whatever their religion is....) or allowing a religious minority to be their President.

Even in the US, as you very well know, the naturalized citizens do not become President. In Britain, the head of the State is the Queen or the King, which is the head of the Church of England. In the communist block countries, one has to be a communist to be a President, which I am not. So I am left out over there.

So, what am I supposed to do? Do not participate in the construction of my motherland, because of your thoughts, eh! Is that what bothers you?

Or is it, that somehow your theory of denigrating Pakistani muslims is debunked, because a Parsi minority, a religious community that you have admiration for, is supporting his own motherland. If an Iranian Zarthushti supported Iran would you have the same problem? Have you ever talked with an Iranian Zarathushti with anti-Iran thoughts? My Iranian friends have called India as the garbage dumpster of humanity.

You are absolutely confused in mixing my love for Pakistan with love for some religion. And that is the dilema I see with most Indians. Please provide arguments on the merits of the issue and leave religion out.

In my opinion, it has almost always been the Indian Hindus who hurl the first insult about muslim religion. I am amazed that muslims have behaved with such dignity and admiration.

If you consider me to be a mouthpiece of a muslim majority country (Pakistan), so be it. I hope that you never cross my path denigrating Afghanistan or Iran, both of which are muslim majority country. But, you chicken hearted Indian, you will never be authentic and bold in your condemnation of a behavor which might be country specific. Instead you bring the dignity of a 1400 year old religion, and your convoluted thoughts only in reference to Pakistan.

Why do I always see the ugly looking, chicken hearted Indians, schmoozing to the glorius muslim Iranians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis?

As always, I shall remain dignified, and

Submit respectfully,

Re: # 336
//....a rarity as an Indian Christian, Parsi, or Muslim who has studied, say, Sanskrit or classical Tamil...//

And it`s even rarer [in %age terms] to find an Indian hindu who has studied Sanskrit, or Gita or whatever.... Sanksrit/Classical Tamil should be good to study as part of research on heritage/culture - but at this time, that don`t really get you any jobs....

So let people study what works for them.... it`s a free country ....

As for paki minorities knowing arabic or whatever - well, if that brings jobs/security to them - well and good.....

+++

If it makes you happy - there is atleast one muslim I know who studies Sanskrit etc - Dr Kalam and he is the president of India.... I think that`s sufficient for time being.....

re: Dharma # 335, Behram

Indians may be making a big mistake. They may believe that they have found the `right path` that everyone else must follow. There is no actual support for that belief.

Empirically, minorities seem to be far more in sync with the mood of the Pakistani society than with the Indian one. Pakistani minorities report themselves to be far happier and much more satisfied with their existing status than do the minorities in India. Culturally, Pakistani minorities are one with the Pakistani nation. A Pakistani Christian, Parsi or even Hindu who has learnt some Arabic or Persian is not half much a rarity as an Indian Christian, Parsi, or Muslim who has studied, say, Sanskrit or classical Tamil.

So instead of dismissing the entire Pakistani approach as unfair, or deriding it as `dhimmitude,` Indians need to closely study it and implement it at home. That is the only fair and intelligent thing to do. Forcing the self-righteous ways of the majority on minorities, as Indian followers of Gandhi and Nehru have been blindly doing since independence, is plain wrong and enormously counterproductive.

Re: # 333
dear besharam1
i did not mean to disrespect parsi culture or religion in anyway. I have utmost respect for them. I was only calling you besharam for your behavior. it has nothing to do with your religion or culture. Dont hide behind them. I can not respect any nation which does not give equal if not more (most civilized nations give more rights to minorities) rights to minorites, and i have even less repsect for persons who willingly settle for less rights either because they believe they are lesser humans than the majority or because they are scared of the majority or for any other reason. You come in to that category - as a pakistani citizen you can not become its president and yet you have no problems with it. You have convinced yourself that you are second class citizen and yet you support the cause of pure muslims. thats why i called you besharam1. why are you a mouthpiece for muslim majority country which does not give equal rights to all citizens? what is in it for you?

shamlessly submitted

Re: # 330

Dear Sridhar:

Of course, you should be proud of Indian muslims....[In all this drama, Indian muslims have kept themselves out of this global jehad. This is something that they should be proud of.] because you have a long way to work on those Pakistani sugar cane oozing inside you.

It will take you a long time to get your empty skull operational.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 326

Dear Shameless,

I will not scoop so low to call you by any other name, because I know the meaning of what ``dhram`` means to you. But, you did not realize that in your zeal you have just insulted the purest of the pure Parsi fire - Atash Behram.

Nevertheless, I will

Respectfully submit,

Re: # 328

Dear rsridhar:

The rocks are still bouncing around inside your empty skull, eh!

Or is it the Pakistani sugar cane that is now oozing inside?

I will eventually get your Aatish-e-ga@nd quelched. Trust me.

Nobody else claims your empty skull. Nobody wants you poor, ugly duckling.

Your poor soul needs some some solace. Does it not?

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 330 from the article in your post
[.....This is the tightrope that the British state and population will now have to walk for the foreseeable future; and the sweet dream of universal cultural compatibility has been replaced, in a single day, by the nightmare of permanent conflict...]

For once - the white man was trying to do the right thing by going for ``mult-culturalism`` and all that... but our friends from land of pure [and elswhere] have managed to turn the whole concept on it`s head.....

But who is surprised???

re: The clash of civilizations
The battle lines are already being drawn. I am sure many Chowkies have read about the rioting going on in France. The people rioting are mostly muslims. They may have some genuine grievances but they are being coaxed on by some fundamentalist elements (muslim clerics) from within and without.
Similar scenario is being enacted in Denmark. It is a matter of time when U.K will be a victim too.
A sad truth is that muslims do not known how to integrate with the rest of the community.
http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/051114/story.html

In Denmark, the story is different.
http://www.nsm88.com/articles/denmark%20-%20something%20rotten%20in.html
Excerpts:
(SOMETHING ROTTEN IN DENMARK?
By DANIEL PIPES & LARS HEDEGAARD August 27, 2002 -- A Muslim group in Denmark announced a few days ago that a $30,000 bounty would be paid for the murder of several prominent Danish Jews, a threat that garnered wide international notice. Less well known is that this is just one problem associated with Denmark`s approximately 200,000 Muslim immigrants. The key issue is that many of them show little desire to fit into their adopted country.

For years, Danes lauded multiculturalism and insisted they had no problem with the Muslim customs - until one day they found that they did. Some major issues:

* Living on the dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.

* Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark`s 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country`s convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

* Self-imposed isolation: Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.

* Importing unacceptable customs: Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem.

Another is threats to kill Muslims who convert out of Islam. One Kurdish convert to Christianity, who went public to explain why she had changed religion, felt the need to hide her face and conceal her identity, fearing for her life.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4389538.stm
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_suicide_bombers.html
A poignant article on the muslim problem in Europe.
Excerpts:

1. (Muslim immigrants and their descendants are more likely to be poor, to live in overcrowded conditions, to be unemployed, to have low levels of educational achievement, and above all to be imprisoned, than other South Asian immigrants and their descendants. The refusal to educate females to their full capacity is a terrible handicap in a society in which, perhaps regrettably, prosperity requires two household incomes. The idea that one is already in possession of the final revealed truth, leading to an inherently superior way of life, inhibits adaptation to a technically more advanced society.)
2. ``Many young Muslims, unlike the sons of Hindus and Sikhs who immigrated into Britain at the same time as their parents, take drugs, including heroin. They drink, indulge in casual sex, and make nightclubs the focus of their lives. Work and careers are at best a painful necessity, a slow and inferior means of obtaining the money for their distractions.

But if in many respects their tastes and behavior are indistinguishable from those of underclass white males, there are nevertheless clear and important differences. Most obviously, whatever the similarity between them and their white counterparts in their taste for sex, drugs, and rock and roll, they nevertheless do not mix with young white men, even in the neighborhoods devoted to the satisfaction of their tastes. They are in parallel with the whites, rather than intersecting with them.)

3. (Another obvious difference is the absence of young Muslim women from the resorts of mass distraction. However similar young Muslim men might be in their tastes to young white men, they would be horrified, and indeed turn extremely violent, if their sisters comported themselves as young white women do. They satisfy their sexual needs with prostitutes and those whom they quite openly call “white sluts.” (Many a young white female patient of mine has described being taunted in this fashion as she walked through a street inhabited by Muslims.) And, of course, they do not have to suffer much sexual frustration in an environment where people decide on sexual liaisons within seconds of acquaintance.``

4. (... young Muslim males have a strong motive for maintaining an identity apart. And since people rarely like to admit low motives for their behavior, such as the wish to maintain a self-gratifying dominance, these young Muslims need a more elevated justification for their conduct toward women. They find it, of course, in a residual Islam: not the Islam of onerous duties, rituals, and prohibitions, which interferes so insistently in day-to-day life, but in an Islam of residual feeling, which allows them a sense of moral superiority to everything around them, including women, without in any way cramping their style.

This Islam contains little that is theological, spiritual, or even religious, but it nevertheless exists in the mental economy as what anatomists call a “potential space.” A potential space occurs where two tissues or organs are separated by smooth membranes that are normally close together, but that can be separated by an accumulation of fluid such as pus if infection or inflammation occurs. And, of course, such inflammation readily occurs in the minds of young men who easily believe themselves to be ill-used, and who have been raised on the thin gruel of popular Western culture without an awareness that any other kind of Western culture exists. )

5. (According to Islamism, the West can never meet the demands of justice, because it is decadent, materialistic, individualistic, heathen, and democratic rather than theocratic. Only a return to the principles and practices of seventh-century Arabia will resolve all personal and political problems at the same time. This notion is fundamentally no more (and no less) bizarre or stupid than the Marxist notion that captivated so many Western intellectuals throughout the 20th century: that the abolition of private property would lead to final and lasting harmony among men. Both conceptions offer a formula that, rigidly followed, would resolve all human problems.)

6. (The other bombers had passions for soccer, cricket, and pop music. They gave no indication before their dreadful deeds of religious fanaticism, and their journeys to Pakistan, in retrospect indications of a growing indoctrination by fundamentalism, could have seemed at the time merely family visits. In the meantime, they led highly Westernized lives, availing themselves of all the products of Western ingenuity to which Muslims have contributed nothing for centuries. It is, in fact, literally impossible for modern Muslims to expunge the West from their lives: it enters the fabric of their existence at every turn. Usama bin Ladin himself is utterly dependent upon the West for his weaponry, his communications, his travel, and his funds. He speaks of the West’s having stolen Arabian oil, but of what use would oil have been to the Arabs if it had remained under their sands, as it would have done without the intervention of the West? Without the West, what fortune would bin Ladin’s family have made from what construction in Saudi Arabia?

Muslims who reject the West are therefore engaged in a losing and impossible inner jihad, or struggle, to expunge everything that is not Muslim from their breasts. It can’t be done: for their technological and scientific dependence is necessarily also a cultural one. You can’t believe in a return to seventh-century Arabia as being all-sufficient for human requirements, and at the same time drive around in a brand-new red Mercedes, as one of the London bombers did shortly before his murderous suicide. An awareness of the contradiction must gnaw in even the dullest fundamentalist brain.)

In all this drama, Indian muslims have kept themselves out of this global jehad. This is something that they should be proud of. I am hearing some news oflate that some IMs are being coaxed into joining the jehad by LeT. One hopes that does not happen. IMs will be a final reminder to muslims around the world that a benign face of Islam does exist and if they want to countenance it, they may have to from now-on face not towards Mecca but towards India!
Sridhar

re: a temple of tolerance
Akshardham temple was attacked by muslim extremits some years ago. The answer to that attack is a new temple built by the same sect. The temple is now dedicated to religious tolerance and was inaugurated by Indian PM Manmohar Singh, a sikh with Abdul Kalam (muslim) and L.K.Advani being present on the occasion.
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=437835
(President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and opposition leader L.K. Advani of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party joined in pushing open the door of the main hall of the Swaminarayan Akshardham Temple in New Delhi Sunday.

The presence of the three leaders reflects the country`s entrenched communal diversity, which has been tested often by religious riots.

More than 7,000 sculptors built the colonnaded temple over five years. It sits on 234 pillars topped by nine domes and is bedecked by more than 20,000 statues of gods and goddesses, encompassing the gamut of the Hindu pantheon.)
Pak likes to think it is competing with India. How about building a mosque and dedicating it to religious tolerance?
Sridhar

re:#326 by dharma
Parsees in India seem to be different from those in ``the land of pure``. I believe they have been indoctrinated into a different kind of belief system. It is scary what a society with fundamentalist agenda can do to u. You can get a glimpse of that indoctrination at work from this guy Besharam Aatish-e-ga@nd`s posts. I would not waste time on such idiots.
Sridhr

dharma, harish

Let it go :) We already have had endless discussion on that .... Besides you don`t want to endure another round of acute verbal diarrhea from YLH and family....

Re: # 325 besharam1
``Pakistan was founded because Muslims were all united for a better and independent society for themselves. ``

tera kya hoga kaalia? what is your position in pakistan as a parsi if the unity is only for muslims? harish has good point that if the reason for creation pakistan is because hindus and musilms can not live peacefully together, then how can they suddenly start living peacefully after the creation. just give up and get converted or get yourself kidnapped
besharam1.

shamelessly submitted

Re: # 323

Dear harish_hyd:

Thank you for a response.

You ask.....[You don`t take him seriously, do you?]...Yes, I do. And if we all come together we could start a new Pakistan that is strong and independent and has respect all over the world.

You suggest....[Because how is unity possible in a country that was founded on the basis of differences?] Pakistan was founded because Muslims were all united for a better and independent society for themselves.

You assert...[How is faith possible for a people who were told not to have faith in another community?] Muslims tried their very best to understand the other community. And once, they came to the conclusion that this is not possible, they chose to better themselves independently. And that is exactly what they did.

Your notion...[How is discipline possible for a people who resorted to rioting and murder to achieve their ends?] That is absolutely bogus. Muslims were the first to be killed and masacred.

Regardless, harish_hyd, past is past and for the most part Pakistanis are comfortable with their glorious history. We must start respecting those feelings and accept the present situation. Constant tirade by United-India lovers, notwithstanding, will not change the dynamics on the ground.

I love my Pakistan, because that is where I was born.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 306

Dear Parthaab

just went over some sites of newspapers (Dec 27th, 28th, 2004). The death toll of Tsunami was initially about 13,000. Let me know if you have a source which quoted higher numbers.

Thanks.

#218 by behram1

[As Mohd. Ali Jinnah had said long time ago: Pakistanis must have Unity, Faith and Discipline.]

You don`t take him seriously, do you? Because how is unity possible in a country that was founded on the basis of differences? How is faith possible for a people who were told not to have faith in another community? How is discipline possible for a people who resorted to rioting and murder to achieve their ends?

Pakistani Police Arrest and Fire Tear Gas Azad Kashmiri Quake Victims



from BBC available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4413318.stm




Pakistani Police arresting a victim

Tear gas fired at Kashmir border

Pakistani police arrest a Kashmiri man at the LoC

Pakistani police have fired tear gas shells to disperse hundreds of angry Kashmiris as a crossing on the region`s de facto border was opened.

India and Pakistan struck a deal to open five points along the heavily militarised Line of Control to help victims of last month`s earthquake.

But only relief materials are being exchanged and civilians are not being allowed to cross yet.

Hundreds of Kashmiri villagers on the Pakistani side of the divide approached the Line of Control (LoC) shouting ``Let people cross`` and ``What we want is freedom``.

Police fired in the air and lobbed tear gas shells after which they left the scene, reports say.

On Monday, Pakistani and Indian army officials shook hands as they threw open the LoC at the Rawalakot-Poonch crossing.

Relief trucks than backed up to the line and Indian porters began handing over sacks to their Pakistani counterparts.

Immigration, customs and foreign currency exchange facilities have been set up, along with public telephones and a mosque.

But Kashmiri civilians may have to wait another 10 days before they can travel to get first-hand news of their relatives.

One villager, Mohammed Saleem, described it as mere drama.

``If we can`t go in there,`` he said pointing to the Indian side, ``then it does not make much difference for us.``

Pakistani Police Arrest and Fire Tear Gas Azad Kashmiri Quake Victims



from BBC available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4413318.stm




Pakistani Police arresting a victim

Tear gas fired at Kashmir border

Pakistani police arrest a Kashmiri man at the LoC

Pakistani police have fired tear gas shells to disperse hundreds of angry Kashmiris as a crossing on the region`s de facto border was opened.

India and Pakistan struck a deal to open five points along the heavily militarised Line of Control to help victims of last month`s earthquake.

But only relief materials are being exchanged and civilians are not being allowed to cross yet.

Hundreds of Kashmiri villagers on the Pakistani side of the divide approached the Line of Control (LoC) shouting ``Let people cross`` and ``What we want is freedom``.

Police fired in the air and lobbed tear gas shells after which they left the scene, reports say.

On Monday, Pakistani and Indian army officials shook hands as they threw open the LoC at the Rawalakot-Poonch crossing.

Relief trucks than backed up to the line and Indian porters began handing over sacks to their Pakistani counterparts.

Immigration, customs and foreign currency exchange facilities have been set up, along with public telephones and a mosque.

But Kashmiri civilians may have to wait another 10 days before they can travel to get first-hand news of their relatives.

One villager, Mohammed Saleem, described it as mere drama.

``If we can`t go in there,`` he said pointing to the Indian side, ``then it does not make much difference for us.``

#241 by hamidm2

[- we continue to follow his tradition the same way you follow hanuman`s tradition of abducting women and then running up a coconut tree .............]

Hanuman abducted women? This post is as stupid as it is funny. Hamidm Sahib, you know very little of your own religion (not that it is a bad thing, in fact that probably is the reason why you are saner as compared to the Urstruly and tahmed32 types), but you know even little about other religions. I think you should stick to gabby and God, and leave the others to worry about religion.

The world doesn`t care for Pakis because Pakis haven`t exactly have been hospitable to the world.

11 French Engineers working on the Scorpene (or was it Agosta) submarines are blown to bits by a suicide bomber in Karachi prompting the New Zealand cricket team to call off its tour midway through.

3 US workers working for a US oil company are shot dead in Karachi.

Aimal Kansi shoots and kills 2 CIA workers just outside the office at Langley and then flees to Pakistan where he is sheltered for some time before US pressure forces Pakistan to give him up.

Daniel Pearl is brutally beheaded on camera by Paki Jihadis despite pitiful pleas by her pregnant wife and the video circulated throughout the world as a testament to the hospitality of Pakis.

Why would any sane man want to help Pakis after such fine examples of their hospitality?

achcha, ub samajh may aa-eetu bath. tu iss leeyah internet pey pakistani bun raha hai cause you want to pick up pakistani men. wasiay tu sahee jagah aa-ya hai. yahan tujhay mill ja-ain ``gay`` tairay type ka loag.

Re: # 316

Faisal, aa meray pass aa, tujhay 2 din maiN poori Pujnabi Sikha dooN ga.

abey tu upnay aap ko insaan samajhta hay bey? aur tu kaisa pakistani hay? kiranchiwalay kub say punjabi may bath kernay lagay? mard ka bucha bun or urdu may bath ker. shahbash.

Re: # 314

Oye..tu apnay aap ko Aadmi samajhta hey? Wah Wah. Isokay ma boy, isokay.

In punjabai we call it PatliyaN TangaN, polas Mukabla.

abey, tu internet pay doosaray pakistani mardon kee fikr karna chor or upnay kaam say kaam rakh. shahbash.

Re: # 311

Faisal Yaar, main India pay nahee, Teray pay Garam ho raha hooN.

Re: # 302

Dear Aamir:

You went to school with someone and after years you find him corrupt, then I imagine you would call him corrupt. Wouldn`t you?

You ask what makes a person corrupt? This is a very good question that has never been answered. Please don`t expect Intezar Public of Pakistan to be proactive. Thinkers are a luxury item in our part of the world.

It seems that I was right when I asked you that somehow you are the mouth piece of this Pakistani administration, when you write...[I have some of my friends and acquantainces from Aitchison who are now either Ministers, MNA`s or advisors to the government.] And this is where you pick up their spoken dialogue.

To answer your other questions[Is it the office that corrupts them or is it the corruption within them that seeks such offices?] Both. When most of them get away with corruption then it is the whole system that need to be revamped. And please don`t mix the corrupt institutions of Pakistan and its benefactors with Intezar Public of Pakistan. This is what I have been arguing with Romair at the other site.

O! Aamir, my dear Aamir, it is not fair to compare Britishers with Intezar Public of Pakistan. British society which is based 100% on law and order can never be comapred with the rubbish that has been going on in Pakistan since 1957.

In one of my earlier post to Romair (I believe!), I noted that according to one estimate the Net Worth of Pakistani expats is around $100 Billion. If these Pakistanis can contribute only 1%, then our President does not have to go begging the entire western world.

Further, we have upteen thousands of Pakistani Doctors in the expat community, and for the most part well off. How many of them are volunteering to help? Why do we see so many western faces helping?

You ask ....[And how would I (or Joe Honest) act if given a similar chance?] In a sewer most people get mudied. Most honest Intezar Public of Pakistan are trying to leave that mess. And those who could, have already done so. Just go and have a look at any of the foreign embassies. Heck, not too long ago, even the government was caught in human trafficking.

I agree with you when you take on this leadership by being [Mine are Scream, Be Angry, be productive, be challenging. Be whatever we can be except being complacent and resigning.]

Respectfully submitted,

abay kulharee, tu kyun garam ho raha bey? yeh news india kay baaray may hai. taira iss say kya matlub?

Re: # 309

Faisal,

3 Indian Muslims were killed? Well, that’s sad. That and the 2 French Muslim killed by the Frogs 10 days ago brings the total to 5. Thanks for keeping the tally Faisal.

The 3 died in Lucknow, what Firka did they belong to? The Berbers killed in Paris were unemployed Salafis.

i know cows are revered in india but even still:

http://www.hindunet.com/onps/showarticle.php?pb=8&ag=5&a=20507

LUCKNOW,NOVEMBER 6: Hindu activists attacked a Muslim village in northern India, torching homes and killing three people, after hearing rumors that cows, considered holy by Hindus, were slaughtered for the Islamic Eid Al Fitr celebrations, police said Sunday.

...Three Muslims died and over 40 houses were torched, Shirodkar said. He said a police investigation revealed no cow had been slaughtered in the village. Authorities deployed paramilitary forces in and around Mehndipur, located about 35 kilometers (20 miles) east of state capital Lucknow. Uttar Pradesh is India’s most populous state, and about 15 percent of its 180 million people are Muslims.

Re: # 302

Ahi....

>>>>>David Blunkett, a Secretary in Tony Blair`s government had to resign (again) for having a conflict of interest of an investment of 15,000 pounds in another firm. He was a politician but the people decided his fate. We as individuals in Pakistan need to demand similar accountability and that is what I mean by the individual taking more responsibilty about the state of our nation. We are not merely props in this national drama. Its time we take the leading roles.

How? I`m sure you have some good suggestions. Mine are Scream, Be Angry, be productive, be challenging. Be whatever we can be except being complacent and resigning.<<<<<

Very interesting, inspirational and assuring thoughts. But how do you propose we held them accountable who entered the system thru backdoor. It is like asking to debate the existence of Allah with a Mulla who is self-proclaimed representative of God on earth. How can you hold Dictatorships accountable? Are you suggesting a full-fledged armed freedom struggle by Pakistanis to take over their government from these self imposed thugs? I like your thoughts.

Re: # 299

In the case of the tsunami, the figures were in the 6 figures almost from the beginning.

What reason could be there for the huge discrepancy in the estimates given for the earthquake?

Re: # 299

In the case of the tsunami, the figures were in the 6 figures almost from the beginning.

What reason could be there for the huge discrepancy in the estimates given for the earthquake?

Can`t imagine letters like this being printed in mainstream newspapers of other countries...(and mullah omar and yasser ``ahmedi`` hamdani``: Private view is a cop-out...the New York Times won`t print a racist letter)

p.s. aha_snark or whatever...u lurking?

Zionist hold

Sir: Zionists have such a powerful grip on American politics, Hollywood, the media and both Houses of Congress that even George W Bush who has no re-election concerns is unwilling to challenge them over America’s Middle East policy. Apart from the occasional statement politely asking Israelis to stop the construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, the US administration openly sides with Israel, saying it “understands” Israel’s security concerns.

Jews today enjoy the same kind of control over various sectors of US politics and economy their counterparts in Germany did ahead of Nazi madness. Unless they are careful not to use it ruthlessly, I am afraid, they will risk another Holocaust.
OMAR MIRZA

Daniel Pearl`s wife was pregnant with their first child.

She came to Pakistan and pleaded for her husband`s life who had been kidnapped.

Pakistanis responded to her by beheading Daniel Pearl and releasing the video of that gruesome act.

Do you really expect the world to respond with sympathy when you talk about pregnamt women in Muzaffarabad going without the necessities of life?

#295, {``New Pakistani arrivals, Razvi said, have their immigration papers in order. ``They have their T`s crossed and their I`s dotted,`` he said, rubbing his weary eyes and smiling. ``}

I would be more impressed if he stated that Pakis in NYC have their legs crossed and their foreheads dotted. :)

Re: # 297

Dear Behram1,

As much as I`d like to disassociate myself from politicians I do find some similar backgrounds between them and Joe Public.

When I say they are from us, I mean that (some of them) grew up where I did, went to the same schools, played similar sports, cheered for the same teams, and thought very much like me (at one stage of our lives). I have some of my friends and acquantainces from Aitchison who are now either Ministers, MNA`s or advisors to the government. Is it the office that corrupts them or is it the corruption within them that seeks such offices? And how would I (or Joe Honest) act if given a similar chance? Though questions.

David Blunkett, a Secretary in Tony Blair`s government had to resign (again) for having a conflict of interest of an investment of 15,000 pounds in another firm. He was a politician but the people decided his fate. We as individuals in Pakistan need to demand similar accountability and that is what I mean by the individual taking more responsibilty about the state of our nation. We are not merely props in this national drama. Its time we take the leading roles.

How? I`m sure you have some good suggestions. Mine are Scream, Be Angry, be productive, be challenging. Be whatever we can be except being complacent and resigning.

Re: # 299

interesting thought. However, I think that in the case of Tsunami the casualty numbers kept on increasing. And in this article I used Tsunami as a bench mark for global aid generosity.

Notwithstanding, our PR and press need how to learn how to amass greater stickiness in its stories and the way it portrays them

In any natural disaster, the prime responsibility of relief is with the host country...not with the international community. Everything ``the world`` does is simply a bonus. In fairness, Iran and China had received scant attention when natural disasters hit their nation.

People can find whatever reasons they want to hate Pakistan or Pakistanis...only a fool would pay attention to them at this particular time.

The Pakistani media, in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake was saying only 10000 were killed and very slowly raied that figure.

Compare that with what happnes in the US... After Katrina, it said 50000 body bags are on the ready. After 9/11 it said 10000 are killed. Immediately it got all the global sympathy. And then everyone forgot the media exaggeration.

The Pakistani media and its masters have a few lessons to learn in earning global sympathy.

Of course the (percieved or true?) Islamic fundamentalism and fanaticism has nt helped at all.

Re: # 291

Dear faisaluno:

[unlike before, we have some very good people working in these institutions who are doing a damn good job.] Before what? For the past so many years, we see many, many Pakistanis trying to get out of Pakistan. So the legitimate question becomes why?

[i get very angry when i read unjust criticism of these people in english press by people who cant tell the difference between their heads and their ass.] Please do get angry, and keep the level of anger up. And not at the English press, because they do know the difference between their heads and their ass. It is only they who are showing introspection to the Pakistanis who care.

[i think its very important that we recognise the efforts of govt institutions that are doing a good job because frankly speaking there are not too many of them around.] Yes, I agree with you generally.

A few good individuals in an institution, does not make a good institution.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 293

Dear Aamir:

Please do not use this thought in Pakistan`s case..[The politicians came from the people and we are the people.] Pakistani politicians are have been rightfully discredited for there dis-service to the nation. I have no idea where they came from.

Respectfully submitted,

Prophet tahmed: Perhaps you should tell El-Presidente about the ``outpouring of relief`` or whatever..He`s saying the opposite.

While we`re on the topic, here`s another article about the pakis who haven`t fallen for the t-shirt with a paki flag delusion...

I`m going to send this to Tom Tancredo, the single issue pubbie...

`Protected status` sought for Pakistanis

NAHAL TOOSI

Associated Press

NEW YORK - South Asian advocacy groups are urging Congress and the Bush administration to grant Pakistanis in the United States a chance to delay deportation to their earthquake-ravaged homeland until the recovery from the disaster is further along.

``These individuals don`t have anything left to go back to,`` said Mohammad Razvi, executive director of the Brooklyn-based Council of Peoples Organization.

The effort to allow Pakistanis ``Temporary Protected Status`` has drawn the support of more than two dozen members of Congress.

Advocates say it wouldn`t allow all Pakistani immigrants facing removal to stay; they would need to meet requirements including criminal background checks. But it could help Pakistanis with expiring visas.

``Pakistan`s being an ally and helping the United States, we ought to show Pakistan that we are appreciative for the help that`s been extended,`` said Rep. Al Green, D-Texas, who has introduced a bill with 28 co-sponsors calling for the designation.

``It`s the humanitarian thing to do,`` Green said.

The designation is primarily allowed when the nationals would be in danger if sent back or if sending them back would put an extreme strain on their home country`s infrastructure, said Crystal Williams, deputy director of programs for the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

The Oct. 8 earthquake that hit Pakistan is believed to have killed about 80,000 people in the region and caused widespread destruction. But Williams noted that much of Pakistan is still functioning.

Only a handful of countries are on the temporary protected status list, including Honduras and Nicaragua, which suffered hurricane devastation, and Sudan, which has had ongoing armed conflict.

Chris Bentley, spokesman for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, said the key factor was a request from the country in question.

Pakistan doesn`t plan to make that request, an embassy official said. Asking for the designation would be akin to saying there are many Pakistanis living illegally in the United States, said Mohammad Sadiq, deputy chief of mission for the Pakistani embassy in Washington.

``We support the community effort, but our estimate is that there are very, very few people illegal here,`` he said.

In the large Pakistani community in New York, some Pakistanis here legally say they want to go home to help but fear endangering their applications for permanent U.S. resid