Adi Arun November 10, 2005
#527 Posted by Behram1 on November 15, 2005 2:24:20 pm
When will they become humans?
http://www.boloji.com/wfs/wfs091.htm
Sati : What Lies Beneath
Women`s organizations are understandably distressed over the public response to the congregation at the Rani Sati temple in Jhunjhunu, Rajasthan, in early September. Over 15,000 pilgrims - men, women and children - attended the three-day annual puja (prayer) at the temple, thereby reinforcing the controversial practice of sati. The puja was held after a gap of several years, following the Rajasthan High Court`s recent go-ahead to the puja - at the Rani Sati temple, as well as the Dhauli Sati temple in Sikar district.
The court`s decision carries the imminent danger of glorifying the practice. Sati was first declared illegal in India as far back as 1829 by the British, largely due to the efforts of Raja Ram Mohan Roy. In more recent times - 1987 - the Roop Kanwar incident in Deorala, Rajasthan, created a furor. Kanwar`s death on her husband`s funeral pyre led to widespread protests by women`s groups. The latest case of sati, reported from Madhya Pradesh in August 2002, brought the controversial issue into focus yet again.
Women`s activists and legal experts express concern over the revival of sati for commercial considerations; and they do not rule out this aspect in the Madhya Pradesh incident. Supreme Court lawyer Dr V N Saraf says that by performing puja, the temple authorities gave in to the people, especially the illiterate, who offered money and material donations to the Rani Sati temple.
Kavita Srivastava, an activist with the People`s Union of Civil Liberties (PUCL), alleges that the Rani Sati temple trust has been trying to expand its operations because its entire economy, running into millions of rupees, depends on donations from devotees. There are at least 250 sati temples in the country.
There is an urgent need to take pro-active steps in order to prevent the revival of sati. So far, the steps taken to stop sati have come as reactions. It is important, say activists, to unravel the reasons that drive a woman towards sati. What are the social parameters drawn out for women by our patriarchal society? Why are women forced to eliminate themselves in the name of religion?
Subjected to various indignities every day of their lives, a majority of Indian women are conditioned to stay with their men or consider themselves unworthy of living. On her husband`s death, a widow usually foresees a life full of harassment and humiliation. The fear of an identity crisis, and the prospect of being subjected to harassment and indignity are at the root of the compulsion felt by women who want to - or do - immolate themselves in the name of sati.
Meera Khanna, Joint Secretary of the Guild of Service, blames the government and society for the prevailing condition of women in the country. ``There is a resistance to 33 per cent reservation of seats for women in Parliament and state assemblies... Women do not get an equal share in property. They do not get equal opportunities in jobs. Under such circumstances, how can you talk of equal rights to women?`` she asks. She suggests that action be taken against those propagating sati.
The Rani Sati temple in Jhunjhunu has long been embroiled in controversy and litigation. Six years ago, women`s groups had protested against the puja to celebrate the sati of 14-year-old Narayani Devi because the celebration reinforced the oppression against all women. Following the protests, the High Court of Rajasthan had imposed restrictions on the chunri ceremony, specific to the worship of sati, and disallowed worship inside the temple. However, the recent Rajasthan High Court order allowing worship has come as a retrograde step.
Devotees, however, have welcomed it. Among those who throng the temple are women who perceive sati through traditional eyes. According to Meera Devi Jhunjhunwala, a regular visitor to the Jhunjhunu temple, ``Sati is a symbol of power.`` And for Santosh Khandelwal, a businessman from Alwar district of Rajasthan, Sati is the goddess of his community and he is following the community tradition. Pawan Khetan, on the other hand, has a blind faith in the tradition - and doesn`t like to be questioned on why he supports it.
Jaswant Kanwar - considered a `living sati` - stays in Shiv Shakti temple in Triveni Dham village in Shahpura, 230 kilometres from Delhi. A strong supporter of the sati tradition, she inadvertently echoes the perceptions of women`s activists. ``The practice is more prevalent in our Rajput community where a widow is not allowed to remarry. Where will the poor widow go after the death of her husband? Who would she look to for support?`` she asks.
Two key questions are necessary here, on the basis of the perceptions of those who say they support the practice. First, would a woman really want to immolate herself on the funeral pyre of her husband if she could be sure of a life free of the harassment and humiliation she foresees for herself?
And second - why are our social values so favorable for men and so demeaning for women?
Besides, even if a woman is driven to sati under the pressure of an extreme set of circumstances, these ought to be probed thoroughly. After all, by law, the act of suicide and its abetment are both punishable.
– Anju Grover
September 29, 2002
#526 Posted by samosa on November 15, 2005 2:02:12 pm
Re: # 522
Pre-Partition days were horrific thus I do not think there was any other choice. Given the Direct Day Action call by Jinnah, British policy of divide and rule and the real fear of civil war it was best to for partition.
Pre-Partition days were horrific thus I do not think there was any other choice. Given the Direct Day Action call by Jinnah, British policy of divide and rule and the real fear of civil war it was best to for partition.
#525 Posted by rsridhar on November 15, 2005 1:55:05 pm
re:#517 by Salim_Chauhan
(My complaint against Jinnah is that, if he was not happy with the result, why did he accept a ``moth-eaten`` Pakistan? Murder is a crime, but suicide is stupid.)
Well said.
You should also have asked Manto, our ``Jinnah specialist``, what he thought about the fact that Jinnah`s great idea of a seperate muslim nation founded to give the minorities a homeland left them as a greater minority in India. So, what was the purpose?
Anyway, Manto can`t answer that. Logic is something Pakis are not taught in school.
Sridhar
(My complaint against Jinnah is that, if he was not happy with the result, why did he accept a ``moth-eaten`` Pakistan? Murder is a crime, but suicide is stupid.)
Well said.
You should also have asked Manto, our ``Jinnah specialist``, what he thought about the fact that Jinnah`s great idea of a seperate muslim nation founded to give the minorities a homeland left them as a greater minority in India. So, what was the purpose?
Anyway, Manto can`t answer that. Logic is something Pakis are not taught in school.
Sridhar
#524 Posted by rsridhar on November 15, 2005 1:50:16 pm
re: Manto`s post
(so ... instead they allowed Gandhi as an alternative to outright rebellion ... he was pumped up... while he was in jail, his statues were allowed to go up else where... while the British government officially designated him a ``rebel``, some of the leading British newspapers deliberately concocted his myth... )
Brilliant!
Now, hurry up and write a PhD thesis on this. I am told there is a dearth of PhD in your country.
Sridhar
(so ... instead they allowed Gandhi as an alternative to outright rebellion ... he was pumped up... while he was in jail, his statues were allowed to go up else where... while the British government officially designated him a ``rebel``, some of the leading British newspapers deliberately concocted his myth... )
Brilliant!
Now, hurry up and write a PhD thesis on this. I am told there is a dearth of PhD in your country.
Sridhar
#523 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 15, 2005 1:29:34 pm
#521, arjun {``Pakistan comes in at 84 sandwiched between Gambia and Nigeria on top and Ukraine and Mali below. ``}
Arjun,
Did Cowasjee first check with Shri BahramJi Atishband Gannawalla? At least, you can say that Atif2 was right all along. Pakistan looks quite European when it is in the same league with Ukraine.
Arjun,
Did Cowasjee first check with Shri BahramJi Atishband Gannawalla? At least, you can say that Atif2 was right all along. Pakistan looks quite European when it is in the same league with Ukraine.
#522 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 15, 2005 1:27:06 pm
#520, samosa {``He was the one to convince gandhi about agreeing on partition``}
Samosa,
His advice on agreeing to partition may be his worst crime. :)
As you suggested, I will read up some more on Patel and his accomplishments. Thanks. The ``Muslim Goonda`` comment has been used over and over by those who justify Pakistan as to the real thinking of powerful Hindus - and that is very unfortunate.
Samosa,
His advice on agreeing to partition may be his worst crime. :)
As you suggested, I will read up some more on Patel and his accomplishments. Thanks. The ``Muslim Goonda`` comment has been used over and over by those who justify Pakistan as to the real thinking of powerful Hindus - and that is very unfortunate.
#521 Posted by arjun_m on November 15, 2005 1:12:03 pm
Check out what a paki parsi thinks of the comparison between India and Pakistan...illustrious paki at that, not a illegal immigrant cab driver in Austin..
Brass hats & mortar-boards-II
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
There is no good news on the home front. One bit of bad news is that Professor Dr Attaur Rahman, chief of the Higher Education Commission, has admitted regretfully that his country does not possess one university which ranks amongst the first 500 in the world. Befittingly with our sunken standards, we had the sacking engineered by the Vice-Chancellor of the prestigious Quaid-i-Azam University, retired army captain U. G. Isani, of scholar Q. Isa Daudpota of Comstech (simply, his contract was not renewed).A recent paper published by Salman Baset, a doctoral student at Columbia University, should be read by all who have the slightest interest in furthering the educational standards in this unfortunate country. It relates how Captain Isani obtained a PhD in education from the National Institute of Modern Languages (NIML) in Islamabad. Daudpota, luckily for him, has moved on to a better job out of the education sector. The loss is the country`s.
There is yet more depressing news. The Swiss-based World Economic Forum (WEF) has recently issued its Global Competitiveness Report for 2004-2005 evaluating and ranking 104 countries. It has been compiled by Michael Porter of Harvard University, Klaus Schwab of the WEF, Xavier Sala-i-Martin of Columbia University and Augusto Lapez-Claros of the WEF.
The report is broken up into various sections. Under the heading `Technological readiness`, India is listed at 26 with Korea and Luxembourg above it and Panama and Malaysia beneath. Pakistan comes in at 84 sandwiched between Gambia and Nigeria on top and Ukraine and Mali below.
`Firm-level technology absorption` has India at 18, with Norway and New Zealand above and Austria and the Slovak Republic below. Pakistan is listed at 44, under the Czech Republic and Bahrain and over Namibia and Jordan.
`Prevalence of foreign technology licensing` lists India at 8, with New Zealand and Japan above and the United Arab Emirates and Germany below. At 67, Pakistan lies between Tanzania and Nigeria and Costa Rica and Venezuela.
Under `FDI and technology transfer` India lies at 20 below Kenya and the United Kingdom and above Luxembourg and South Africa. We are at 96, between Ecuador and Mali and Ukraine and Macedonia.
`Quality of scientific research readiness` has India at 17, below France and Norway, and above New Zealand and the Russian Federation. We lie at 94, below Bangladesh and Vietnam and above Peru and Ecuador.
Under `Company spending on research and development`, India is listed at 26, with South Africa and Ireland above and China and Indonesia below. We enter at 101, between Bolivia and Paraguay and Angola and Chad. The last listed under this heading is Ethiopia at 104.
India tops the list at No.1 under `Availability of scientists and engineers` with Finland at 2 and Israel at 3, while Pakistan lies in the second half at 61 with Slovenia and Bangladesh above and Ghana and Croatia below.
Depressing also was a report in the press last week from Khalid Hasan in Washington on the subject of the annual `index of economic freedom` exercise conducted by the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal. Pakistan is included among 10 of the 155 countries surveyed whose performance `worsened` during 2004. It is now bracketed with Ethiopia, Uganda, Haiti, Bangladesh, Morocco, Qatar, Cuba and Tunisia. Pakistan is listed at 133, and India at 118.
Are we destined forever to be just hovering above the bottom of the list?
Brass hats & mortar-boards-II
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
There is no good news on the home front. One bit of bad news is that Professor Dr Attaur Rahman, chief of the Higher Education Commission, has admitted regretfully that his country does not possess one university which ranks amongst the first 500 in the world. Befittingly with our sunken standards, we had the sacking engineered by the Vice-Chancellor of the prestigious Quaid-i-Azam University, retired army captain U. G. Isani, of scholar Q. Isa Daudpota of Comstech (simply, his contract was not renewed).A recent paper published by Salman Baset, a doctoral student at Columbia University, should be read by all who have the slightest interest in furthering the educational standards in this unfortunate country. It relates how Captain Isani obtained a PhD in education from the National Institute of Modern Languages (NIML) in Islamabad. Daudpota, luckily for him, has moved on to a better job out of the education sector. The loss is the country`s.
There is yet more depressing news. The Swiss-based World Economic Forum (WEF) has recently issued its Global Competitiveness Report for 2004-2005 evaluating and ranking 104 countries. It has been compiled by Michael Porter of Harvard University, Klaus Schwab of the WEF, Xavier Sala-i-Martin of Columbia University and Augusto Lapez-Claros of the WEF.
The report is broken up into various sections. Under the heading `Technological readiness`, India is listed at 26 with Korea and Luxembourg above it and Panama and Malaysia beneath. Pakistan comes in at 84 sandwiched between Gambia and Nigeria on top and Ukraine and Mali below.
`Firm-level technology absorption` has India at 18, with Norway and New Zealand above and Austria and the Slovak Republic below. Pakistan is listed at 44, under the Czech Republic and Bahrain and over Namibia and Jordan.
`Prevalence of foreign technology licensing` lists India at 8, with New Zealand and Japan above and the United Arab Emirates and Germany below. At 67, Pakistan lies between Tanzania and Nigeria and Costa Rica and Venezuela.
Under `FDI and technology transfer` India lies at 20 below Kenya and the United Kingdom and above Luxembourg and South Africa. We are at 96, between Ecuador and Mali and Ukraine and Macedonia.
`Quality of scientific research readiness` has India at 17, below France and Norway, and above New Zealand and the Russian Federation. We lie at 94, below Bangladesh and Vietnam and above Peru and Ecuador.
Under `Company spending on research and development`, India is listed at 26, with South Africa and Ireland above and China and Indonesia below. We enter at 101, between Bolivia and Paraguay and Angola and Chad. The last listed under this heading is Ethiopia at 104.
India tops the list at No.1 under `Availability of scientists and engineers` with Finland at 2 and Israel at 3, while Pakistan lies in the second half at 61 with Slovenia and Bangladesh above and Ghana and Croatia below.
Depressing also was a report in the press last week from Khalid Hasan in Washington on the subject of the annual `index of economic freedom` exercise conducted by the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal. Pakistan is included among 10 of the 155 countries surveyed whose performance `worsened` during 2004. It is now bracketed with Ethiopia, Uganda, Haiti, Bangladesh, Morocco, Qatar, Cuba and Tunisia. Pakistan is listed at 133, and India at 118.
Are we destined forever to be just hovering above the bottom of the list?
#520 Posted by samosa on November 15, 2005 1:06:19 pm
Re: # 516 Salim
I had no idea that samosa would be filled with mutton.
I dont know about the ``muslim goonda`` comment but you cannot be more wrong about sardar.
He was the one to convince gandhi about agreeing on partition. He is a person who was against appeasement of any community. He gave the order to shoot during the riots be it hindu, sikh or muslim.
I do not know about your sources about patel but please spend 15 minutes on wikipedia. Though wikipedia are not supposed to be accurate but it potrays very correctly his life and misconception of being anti-muslim.
Re: # 518 Manto
Everyones life is not as easy as yours that by fasting one day you get what you want. It was a struggle that had to go through decades and through a nonviolent and persistence of truth. Other factors might have aided but the only if Millions of Indians did not fought for their freedom none of those factors would have mattered. Following are very few actions taken by Gandhiji. The biggest would to change the constitution of Indian National Congress in 1918 to include Complete Independence as final goal.
I had no idea that samosa would be filled with mutton.
I dont know about the ``muslim goonda`` comment but you cannot be more wrong about sardar.
He was the one to convince gandhi about agreeing on partition. He is a person who was against appeasement of any community. He gave the order to shoot during the riots be it hindu, sikh or muslim.
I do not know about your sources about patel but please spend 15 minutes on wikipedia. Though wikipedia are not supposed to be accurate but it potrays very correctly his life and misconception of being anti-muslim.
Re: # 518 Manto
Everyones life is not as easy as yours that by fasting one day you get what you want. It was a struggle that had to go through decades and through a nonviolent and persistence of truth. Other factors might have aided but the only if Millions of Indians did not fought for their freedom none of those factors would have mattered. Following are very few actions taken by Gandhiji. The biggest would to change the constitution of Indian National Congress in 1918 to include Complete Independence as final goal.
- Champaran agitation
- Kheda Satyagraha
- Opposition to Rowlatt Act
- the boycott of foreign-made goods
- mass civil disobedience
- dandi march
- Quit India Movement
- Getting millions of Indians involved in freedom struggle
#519 Posted by Behram1 on November 15, 2005 12:31:01 pm
Re: # 514
Dear Yassir:
Thank you for such inspirational thoughts. That is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. Pakistan Minorities League is the only solution to handle paindoo administration inability to provide rule of law to the minorities.
[Keep the faith...] With strong people like you I will always keep the faith.
Respectfully submitted,
Dear Yassir:
Thank you for such inspirational thoughts. That is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. Pakistan Minorities League is the only solution to handle paindoo administration inability to provide rule of law to the minorities.
[Keep the faith...] With strong people like you I will always keep the faith.
Respectfully submitted,
#518 Posted by MantoLives on November 15, 2005 12:08:46 pm
``India won the freedom through Satyagrah``
Then pray tell why India did not win freedom in 1921 or 1930? And the last ``satyagrah`` movement of 1942 was not even as successful...
I suppose you think the arm twisting by the Americans of the British had nothing to do with it? I suppose you think World War 2 had nothing to do with it ? OR the fact that there was no real Economic utility for India anymore? you think Gandhi fasted and one day India was free?
Amongst those in favor of self rule and/or Independence there were two kind of people... one the critics in the assembly and two the rebels in form of Bhagat Singh etc...
Gandhi`s Satyagrah was designed to pull the rug from underneath the rebels... the last thing the British wanted was youth being stirred up and blowing up British barracks and trading outposts... so ... instead they allowed Gandhi as an alternative to outright rebellion ... he was pumped up... while he was in jail, his statues were allowed to go up else where... while the British government officially designated him a ``rebel``, some of the leading British newspapers deliberately concocted his myth...
This is not how India won its freedom.
#517 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 15, 2005 11:59:27 am
Manto #512 {``You are seriously telling me that a perceptive person like yourself is going to allow yourself to be taken in by the apparent instead of looking at the reality? ``}
Manto,
I obviously am not as informed as you about the subtle details concerning the intentions of the founding fathers of the ill-fated partition of India. You are right, I should read more books on the subject. It is difficult to judge the honesty of those who are writing about these individuals and their motives, some 70 years after the fact. I find it hard to believe that Gandhiji would want partition, or that Jinnah was intending to stay on living in Bombay after working so hard to attain Pakistan. My complaint against Jinnah is that, if he was not happy with the result, why did he accept a ``moth-eaten`` Pakistan? Murder is a crime, but suicide is stupid.
Manto,
I obviously am not as informed as you about the subtle details concerning the intentions of the founding fathers of the ill-fated partition of India. You are right, I should read more books on the subject. It is difficult to judge the honesty of those who are writing about these individuals and their motives, some 70 years after the fact. I find it hard to believe that Gandhiji would want partition, or that Jinnah was intending to stay on living in Bombay after working so hard to attain Pakistan. My complaint against Jinnah is that, if he was not happy with the result, why did he accept a ``moth-eaten`` Pakistan? Murder is a crime, but suicide is stupid.
#516 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 15, 2005 11:55:23 am
Samosa #503 {``Only devious thing that Patel did was to go to UK for education under his elder brothers name using his brothers passport.``}
My friend samosa (veggie or mutton-filled, you are still great.)
If Mr. Patel left his manipulations to the usurped passport, there would be no serious problem. Patel, possibly reflecting the anti-Muslim venom of many Hindu Gujratis, was notorious for being a Muslim hater. He personified the distrust that many pre-partition Muslims started to have concerning Hindu intentions. The famous ``Muslim Goonda`` remark that he hurled at Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtra elicited a slap across the face - this is what I have heard. The man united India after first helping to divide it bitterly.
My friend samosa (veggie or mutton-filled, you are still great.)
If Mr. Patel left his manipulations to the usurped passport, there would be no serious problem. Patel, possibly reflecting the anti-Muslim venom of many Hindu Gujratis, was notorious for being a Muslim hater. He personified the distrust that many pre-partition Muslims started to have concerning Hindu intentions. The famous ``Muslim Goonda`` remark that he hurled at Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtra elicited a slap across the face - this is what I have heard. The man united India after first helping to divide it bitterly.
#515 Posted by Romair on November 15, 2005 11:49:43 am
Dost-mittar #499: ``Whatever he did, in India he is remembered and admired not because of his bloody conquests but as the great follower of Buddha who did wonderful things for the country.``
Noonh soe chuhway khaa kay billi challi Hajj ko (not you, but Ashoka).
I think this is forms the core point on where you and I disagree.........
I don`t consider South Asia of Ashoka`s time, and before and after, to be a, ``country.`` It was a country about as much as Europe was a country. Hence, anyone who started out from Bihar and conquered the whole place, within two generations, was the equivalent of Napoleon starting from Corsica and conquering all of Europe and declaring it his own.......
An invader is an invader is an invader. If he becomes Bhuddhist or not is immaterial. Ashoka didn`t retire to a monestry in Tibet and become a monk and ask for forgiveness and free everyone he had conquered. He solidified and extended(?) his empire. Whether one invades with a smile on one`s face and Bible in one`s hand, or whether one invades yelling Allah-o-Akbar, it is still an invasion and a conquest......
The term, ``benovolent invader`` is an oxymoron. However this is how Indians seem to view non-Muslim invaders. When you invade, you kill. Brutal killings with armies, throuhgout the land. Doesn`t matter if you are Bhuddhist. When you consolidate empires after invading, you crush uprisings. Doesn`t matter if you are a Bhuddhist.......Or if you are portrayed by Shahrukh in romantic movies.......
In all my interactions, here, I have yet to see a single Indian Hindu interactor criticize a single non-Muslim (or non-Christian) invader of South Asia. Not once. When, in fact, Muslim and Christian invaders, of South Asia, are a new(er) phenomenon. The history of South Asia had far more Hindu invaders, invading each others` civilzations. It is thus hard for me to not conclude that there is a strong bias in favor of invaders of local religions. They are considered unifiers and all their sins can be forgiven. However, Muslim invaders are considered foreigners and evivl, even if they were born in Delhi.
Unless of course, they start a new religion, called Din-e-Illahi and move aways from Islam. And marry 30 Hindu wives. Then the invasions become kosher. After that, it is ok for the invader to invade and kill Hindus.
Has anyone in India ever bothered to do the Math and figure out who, amongst the Mughals, must have killed the most Hindus, in proportion to the land they governed. In my calculations, it comes out to be Akbar (or Aurangzeb). It was, infact, Akbar who laid the foundations of a growing Mughal empire. He inherited nothing from Humanyun, who was constantly on the run. Akbar expanded it through invasions. He invaded from Kabul to Bengal! God knows how many Hindus he must have been killed. Yet he is considered the great Mughal king in India.........My guess is because he was accompanied by Hindu wives and not chanting Allah-o-Akbar when he invaded..........
Isn`t it better to simply look at invaders as invaders. Regardless of the religion they practiced. Isn`t that the big fuss that Indian interactors here have about Pakistanis (to a great degree, a correct fuss). Yet it is surprising to then see the same Indian Hindu interactors, be so biased in favor of Hindu and local religious invaders................
In such a line of thinking, Muslims will always be foreigners, i.e. it uses religion as the defining line for the civilization of South Asia.............
Just out of curiosity, could you highlight the names of some Hindu invaders of South Asian lands, whose actions you consider bad. Let`s set aside Ashoka, since you are apparently in love with him. What about Chandragupta? Do you consider him an evil foreign invader of South Asian lands?.........Or is he kosher also, because he is not a Muslim..........What about some others..........As a proud Punjabi, shouldn`t you be against such invaders, as much as you are against Ghaznavi............
Noonh soe chuhway khaa kay billi challi Hajj ko (not you, but Ashoka).
I think this is forms the core point on where you and I disagree.........
I don`t consider South Asia of Ashoka`s time, and before and after, to be a, ``country.`` It was a country about as much as Europe was a country. Hence, anyone who started out from Bihar and conquered the whole place, within two generations, was the equivalent of Napoleon starting from Corsica and conquering all of Europe and declaring it his own.......
An invader is an invader is an invader. If he becomes Bhuddhist or not is immaterial. Ashoka didn`t retire to a monestry in Tibet and become a monk and ask for forgiveness and free everyone he had conquered. He solidified and extended(?) his empire. Whether one invades with a smile on one`s face and Bible in one`s hand, or whether one invades yelling Allah-o-Akbar, it is still an invasion and a conquest......
The term, ``benovolent invader`` is an oxymoron. However this is how Indians seem to view non-Muslim invaders. When you invade, you kill. Brutal killings with armies, throuhgout the land. Doesn`t matter if you are Bhuddhist. When you consolidate empires after invading, you crush uprisings. Doesn`t matter if you are a Bhuddhist.......Or if you are portrayed by Shahrukh in romantic movies.......
In all my interactions, here, I have yet to see a single Indian Hindu interactor criticize a single non-Muslim (or non-Christian) invader of South Asia. Not once. When, in fact, Muslim and Christian invaders, of South Asia, are a new(er) phenomenon. The history of South Asia had far more Hindu invaders, invading each others` civilzations. It is thus hard for me to not conclude that there is a strong bias in favor of invaders of local religions. They are considered unifiers and all their sins can be forgiven. However, Muslim invaders are considered foreigners and evivl, even if they were born in Delhi.
Unless of course, they start a new religion, called Din-e-Illahi and move aways from Islam. And marry 30 Hindu wives. Then the invasions become kosher. After that, it is ok for the invader to invade and kill Hindus.
Has anyone in India ever bothered to do the Math and figure out who, amongst the Mughals, must have killed the most Hindus, in proportion to the land they governed. In my calculations, it comes out to be Akbar (or Aurangzeb). It was, infact, Akbar who laid the foundations of a growing Mughal empire. He inherited nothing from Humanyun, who was constantly on the run. Akbar expanded it through invasions. He invaded from Kabul to Bengal! God knows how many Hindus he must have been killed. Yet he is considered the great Mughal king in India.........My guess is because he was accompanied by Hindu wives and not chanting Allah-o-Akbar when he invaded..........
Isn`t it better to simply look at invaders as invaders. Regardless of the religion they practiced. Isn`t that the big fuss that Indian interactors here have about Pakistanis (to a great degree, a correct fuss). Yet it is surprising to then see the same Indian Hindu interactors, be so biased in favor of Hindu and local religious invaders................
In such a line of thinking, Muslims will always be foreigners, i.e. it uses religion as the defining line for the civilization of South Asia.............
Just out of curiosity, could you highlight the names of some Hindu invaders of South Asian lands, whose actions you consider bad. Let`s set aside Ashoka, since you are apparently in love with him. What about Chandragupta? Do you consider him an evil foreign invader of South Asian lands?.........Or is he kosher also, because he is not a Muslim..........What about some others..........As a proud Punjabi, shouldn`t you be against such invaders, as much as you are against Ghaznavi............
#514 Posted by MantoLives on November 15, 2005 11:33:25 am
Behram
``Definitely it is a right for the majorities to rule, but minorities must be protected, and heard.``
This indeed was the entire essence of Muslim League`s struggle. It is therefore quite surprising that we can turn around forget it when it comes to Pakistan`s minorities...
The first thing that should have been done was the abolition of the Muslim League in Pakistan as it was useful only as a minority party... Instead Muslim majority should have splintered off into left centre and right groups... Meanwhile minorities of Pakistan should organise themselves as one solid bloc... in a sort of Minorities League. Then this Minorities League should always ally itself with who ever is in power ... This in my opinion is the only
solution... and not the bulldozing of identities as the more ``idealistic`` of us seem to suggest... Only this way can Pakistan move forward to a modern democratic and prosperous future for all...
``As always, I have complete faith in my Pakistan, but as you can realize these are frustrating times. ``
Keep the faith...
``Definitely it is a right for the majorities to rule, but minorities must be protected, and heard.``
This indeed was the entire essence of Muslim League`s struggle. It is therefore quite surprising that we can turn around forget it when it comes to Pakistan`s minorities...
The first thing that should have been done was the abolition of the Muslim League in Pakistan as it was useful only as a minority party... Instead Muslim majority should have splintered off into left centre and right groups... Meanwhile minorities of Pakistan should organise themselves as one solid bloc... in a sort of Minorities League. Then this Minorities League should always ally itself with who ever is in power ... This in my opinion is the only
solution... and not the bulldozing of identities as the more ``idealistic`` of us seem to suggest... Only this way can Pakistan move forward to a modern democratic and prosperous future for all...
``As always, I have complete faith in my Pakistan, but as you can realize these are frustrating times. ``
Keep the faith...
#513 Posted by samosa on November 15, 2005 11:28:21 am
Re: # 503
salim,
you can praise anyone you want but before insulting please tell me how you find patel to be devious.
He is man who gave up premiership of India on Gandhijis calling. The 8 out of 10 State Committe of congress had voted Patel to be the leader but somehow (as I dont know much about partition) Nehru was choosen by Gandhiji. I do not the reason for that decision of Gandhiji.
Sardar Patel unified India in one contingous area. There were 550+ princely state who would have been able to declare nationhood but he convince all but 3 to join Indian dominion. And he rewarded all the Kings and Nawabs with handsome pension. Indira Gandhi stopped the payment to those Kings and Nawabs. While India won the freedom through Satyagrah and Gandhiji gets lot of credit for that but there are so many others who need to credited and among those Patel would be in the top.
Only devious thing that Patel did was to go to UK for education under his elder brothers name using his brothers passport.
salim,
you can praise anyone you want but before insulting please tell me how you find patel to be devious.
He is man who gave up premiership of India on Gandhijis calling. The 8 out of 10 State Committe of congress had voted Patel to be the leader but somehow (as I dont know much about partition) Nehru was choosen by Gandhiji. I do not the reason for that decision of Gandhiji.
Sardar Patel unified India in one contingous area. There were 550+ princely state who would have been able to declare nationhood but he convince all but 3 to join Indian dominion. And he rewarded all the Kings and Nawabs with handsome pension. Indira Gandhi stopped the payment to those Kings and Nawabs. While India won the freedom through Satyagrah and Gandhiji gets lot of credit for that but there are so many others who need to credited and among those Patel would be in the top.
Only devious thing that Patel did was to go to UK for education under his elder brothers name using his brothers passport.
#512 Posted by MantoLives on November 15, 2005 11:10:08 am
Salim Chauhan,
You are seriously telling me that a perceptive person like yourself is going to allow yourself to be taken in by the apparent instead of looking at the reality?
Read the book... Sometimes some people get a kick out of being portrayed as saints more than seeking ``temporal`` power... the best opinion one can make of Gandhi and I mean best is of a shrewd and wicked politician... worst opinion would be that of a hypocrite. It WAS not Nehru but Gandhi who vetoed the Cabinet Mission Plan... Nehru got the fall for it... but it was Gandhi all along ... Meanwhile Gandhi played saint by proposing to make Jinnah the Prime Minister.
By the way... another thing that emerges from a reading of those papers is that Jinnah did not seek public office, beyond his parliamentary seat... as he was offered governorship atleast on 2 different occasions and premiership as well.
Also interesting from primary source documents is that Jinnah from in 1947 June 3rd to early July had no intentions of leaving Bombay to become Pakistan`s governor general or Prime Minister... he had initially given his acceptance to Mountbatten and then when the Muslim League objected, he had aired the option of the Nawab of Bhopal... it was the bickering and the infighting ... and no doubt some personal feeling of responsibility towards the nation, that supposedly had come into existence because of his struggle, that he took on the post.
You are seriously telling me that a perceptive person like yourself is going to allow yourself to be taken in by the apparent instead of looking at the reality?
Read the book... Sometimes some people get a kick out of being portrayed as saints more than seeking ``temporal`` power... the best opinion one can make of Gandhi and I mean best is of a shrewd and wicked politician... worst opinion would be that of a hypocrite. It WAS not Nehru but Gandhi who vetoed the Cabinet Mission Plan... Nehru got the fall for it... but it was Gandhi all along ... Meanwhile Gandhi played saint by proposing to make Jinnah the Prime Minister.
By the way... another thing that emerges from a reading of those papers is that Jinnah did not seek public office, beyond his parliamentary seat... as he was offered governorship atleast on 2 different occasions and premiership as well.
Also interesting from primary source documents is that Jinnah from in 1947 June 3rd to early July had no intentions of leaving Bombay to become Pakistan`s governor general or Prime Minister... he had initially given his acceptance to Mountbatten and then when the Muslim League objected, he had aired the option of the Nawab of Bhopal... it was the bickering and the infighting ... and no doubt some personal feeling of responsibility towards the nation, that supposedly had come into existence because of his struggle, that he took on the post.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- quin: Re: # 2 MatloobZaman, Thank... Honor Killings in Babakot
- quin: Honour killings and women... There is no ‘honour’
- tahmed32: #47 hamidm: sigh..re-read #27.... Why Zardari Should Be
- hamidm2: tahmed, .... are these judges... Why Zardari Should Be
- hamidm2: Re: # 45 faruk mian, ....... Why Zardari Should Be
- hamidm2: Re: # 48 allah mian, ...... US Commando Strike in
- wiseguyin: Re: # 30 [[[ ...if... US Commando Strike in
- wiseguyin: Re: # 47 [[[ #40... US Commando Strike in








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content