Indo-Pak History via Mail

behram sahib #509, {``I do not see a deluge of returning expats...do you? And what is the reason? the paindoo administrations of Pakistan must provide the basic amenities of human dignity, such as the rule of law. .. It is Pakistan who has lost it`s credibilty with it`s citizens and hence, ...
No, tahmed32, it is Pakistan who needs to provide complete and total respect for law and order, and respect for its citizens, irrespective of ethnicity, color, caste, or creed. Definitely it is a right for the majorities to rule, but minorities must be protected, and heard. ``}

Behram Bhai,
Once more you have gained my respect for saying what needs to be said. I am glad that you advocate the return of the expats. Let`s start with the repatriation of Pakis stranded in BD. That should restore the tarnished image of Pakistan as far as respect for its own citizens is concerned. You are so right about the responsibility of the majority in the protection for minorities. If we hold Modi and the BJP up to that standard, we can certainly ask Pakis to live up to their responsibilities.
Thanks, I am glad to see that your sweetness is not reserved for Indians and that it applies to Pakis as well - long live the fair and just ganna, may it be planted wherever it is needed.

Re: # 505

Dear Salim_Chauhan Bhai:

Actually there is already a device availbale from Romania that can provide increased level of testostorones. This is achieved when a battery electric shock is given to the testicles.

So, all along I was not that far off when I first recommended 345kv up that ugly electronic guy who has now got himself banged galore.

[I see that your ganna planting machine is not that rigid and unidirectional. :)] This therapy had its first mover advantage. Now it seems that the patient needs some more advance therapy. We will work towards identifying what plumbing mechanism is needed for those dark, ugly alleyways...what is the best plunger available with today`s technology.

As far as changing the black color of these RSS shudras to white...only Michael Jackson would know. But nowadays he is unavailable, since he is enjoying his life with the Shaikh of Qatar.

Just the same,

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 498

Dear tahmed32:

I hope we are not discussing about those few individuals at the higest level of Pakistani society. I do not see a deluge of returning expats...do you? And what is the reason?

I am sure Pakistan can benefit enormously by encouraging it`s senior citizens to return. These seniors for the most part are rich for Pakistan`s economy. However, for the seniors to return, the paindoo administrations of Pakistan must provide the basic amenities of human dignity, such as the rule of law.

[...but the important thing is, to borrow from kennedy`s famous words, ``not what pakistan can do for the expats, rather what the expats can do for pakistan``.]..Now, now...I hope you are not comparing the US with Pakistan. It is Pakistan who has lost it`s credibilty with it`s citizens and hence, it`s citizens want to leave in droves. It is Pakistan who is not able to provide for the basic rule of law, and hence makes it`s citizens leave. If Pakistan was some shining, modern, and enlightened country then why would anybody strive to leave?

No, tahmed32, it is Pakistan who needs to provide complete and total respect for law and order, and respect for its citizens, irrespective of ethnicity, color, caste, or creed. Law and order must be paramount, and all those rubbish legal statutes on the books must be removed quickly.

Definitely it is a right for the majorities to rule, but minorities must be protected, and heard. As always, I have complete faith in my Pakistan, but as you can realize these are frustrating times.

Respectfully submitted,

#502, Jang, another thing is also clear

Jang:
Must become expert in entomology and study insects - especially in the palace of Khurram Shahabuddin Mohammad Shah Jahan vis a vis JahaanAara Begum, the half Iranian princess and daughter of Arjuman Bano aka Mumtaj Mahal.

#471, {``chowk has, i will agree, been an eye-opener on just how low some individuals can go (the mocking of earthquake deaths by ranjit being about the bottom of the pit), and on just how pakistan-obsessed some individuals like thakeray are``}

Sir,
Mocking of poor suffering human beings is relative, as are several other things. I realize that you are quite mournful of the huge loss of life and the immense suffering in north Pakistan that resulted from the natural tragedy called an earthquake. That is why I was horrified at your mockery of the long, wretched, humiliating, and miserable suffering of the stranded ``Pakis`` in BD. You can ridicule them as ``Biharis`` and you and your racist followers can call me a dark-skinned Bihari, but I will not stop my concern for these poor victims of human bigotry, human deviousness, and human hatred. I am strong enough, well-off, and racially secure enough to tolerate the bigotry and abuse from Pakis, but eventually the hypocrites of Pakistan will have to take back their own citizens or risk the displeasure of Allah and the disdain from their fellow human beings. It is a disappointment to learn that your sympathy is dependent on geography and race.

tahmed #478, {``This increase in investment (much of it a spillover of outsourcing that was started in india) will certainly help sustain Pakistan`s economic progress in future.``}

Sir,
I have been stating for almost a year that in order to sustain its phenomenal growth, India will have to pay attention to the huge pool of cheap, skilled, underemployed, and educated labor right next door in Pakistan. This spilling over of India`s good fortune and economic progress would be even greater and faster had the borders been more open and there were fewer restrictions, red tape, and mistrust. We need more cross-border heroism like Meera`s and no cross-border terrorism like what just happened in Delhi during Diwali and Eid. Anyone for reunification? :)

behram #481, {``I don`t think that the paindoo administrations that we constantly get in Islamabad cares a 2 cents hoot about the $100 Billion total net asset valued Pakistani expat community. They always have their head in some elephant`s @ss, or some donkey`s @ss, or so it seems. ``}

Behram, brader-e-man,
I am beginning to like you. :)
Your complaint about the paindoo Paki administrations is right on the mark. How can these inept rulers arrange for the safety and welfare of expats returning home, when they themselves are preparing for an exit to lands with white asses and numbered bank accounts?

I see that your ganna planting machine is not that rigid and unidirectional. :)

Romair #482, {``To the best of my knowledge, while I enjoy heated debates, I have never abused anyone on this site. Nor have I indulged in name-calling.``}

Romair,
I agree with your point that good debaters do not need to indulge in profanity, vulgarity, and insults to win arguments. You, my friend, have not been vulgar, profane, or filthy.

I do disagree with your point that you have never abused anyone on this site. Different people use different methods to abuse their enemies. You resort to quantity - bulk rhetoric, bordering on bullshit, in considerable abundance to wear down your opponents through sheer boredom and weight. :)

Manto, {``salim,
Have you had the opportunity of reading H M Seervai`s ``Partition of India: Legend or reality`` ? From this book one gets the feeling that Vajpayee, Indira and Advani combined hold no candle to the selfishness and deviousness of the Congress trio of Nehru, Patel and Gandhi... Gandhi being the kingpin. ``}

Manto friend,
No, I have not, and thanks for mentioning it, because I like to read about partition from all points of view. I knew that Patel, and to a lesser degree Nehru, were quite devious, but I have considerable admiration for Gandhi. This is based on the fact that he wisely did not accept any position of temporal authority, unlike Nehru and Jinnah. The whole attitude of these selfish leaders during the 40s depicts them as little naughty children competing for the gora sahib`s attention while hurling turds of petty tricks at each other - almost sounds like Chowk UP. :)

I do appreciate your logic in reminding people that if Akbar was a home-grown Indian hero, how could his own great grandson, Maharaja Aurangjeb, be considered a ``ferren`` invader? I would not compare Ashoka to Mahmud though. I think that Mahmud, Napolean, Caesar, Alexander, Nadir Shah, Tamerlane, Attila, and Genghis Khan are in a class by themselves. Ashoka can be compared to Peter the Great, Akbar, Sher Shah Suri, Suleiman the Magnificent, Queen Elizabeth I, and Louis XIV. Just my opinion.

OK so some things are clearer

Manto:
1. Gaznavi is not my hero but..however.. (some lengthy C&Ps)
2. Gaznavi and Gandhi both are despicable evils with much in common, e.g. G

Romair:
1. Pakis have a right to Gaznavi as a hero because Indians have Asoka as a hero.

Salim:
All those are medieval men, so let us hold hands and sing kumbaiah, but sivaji is a very nasty guy because he harrassed Tajuddin and other Rajputs.

Mohar:
Amen.

Behram1:
Must compose a letter to protest all these Indians swamping Casino and cheap-cigarettes trade.

Kalchakra:
Must learn about Gaznavis temples.

DM:
I am so tired.. ;-)

Here is an interesting work on Mahmud Ghaznavi...


Excerpts from
Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni
by
Mohammad Habib

---

Preface to First Edition (1927)
. . . Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni will always attract the attention of posterity, which has been so profoundly influenced by his work. . . I am not aware that I have been inspired by any sympathy or antipathy towards the great conqueror. But there has recently grown up a tendency among some Musalmans of India to adore Mahmud as a saint, and to such a scientific evaluation of his work and his policy will appear very painful. There is only one thing I need say in my defence. Islam as a creed stands by the principles of the Quran and the `Life` of the Apostle. If Sultan Mahmud and his followers strayed from the `straight path` -- so much the worse for them. We want no idols.

Preface to Second Edition (1951)
About twenty-seven years have passed since this book was written. In an atmosphere surcharged with hatreds during the Lucknow communal riots of 1924, I composed and recomposed many of its passages to give expression to that longing for humanity, justice, tolerance and secularism which has been torturing my eastern soul. . . The book was hailed by a storm of criticism in the Urdu press. But as this criticism -- vindictive, bitter, hostile -- was based on a complete ignorance of the originals, I took no notice of it. I reprint the book as it was written.
The fact that Muslim leaders during the last three hundred years, whether politicians or mullahs, have known no other psychology except the psychology of retreat, and that, thanks to them, all Muslim communities have been subject to recurrent waves of ever rising reactionary fanaticisms with the consequence that the Musalmans, unable to stand on their own feet and to adjust their ways of life and their institutions to the strenuous conditions of the modern world. . ., have been driven to seek the protection of some foreign imperialism or other -- all this should not blind us to the fact that

the Muslim revolution has been a vital fact in world-history for all time,
that the Quranic conception of good was, and can still be, a revolutionary force of incalculable value for the attainment of human welfare, and
that the higher Muslim religion. . . anticipates, and is indistinguishable from, that ``religion for the service of humanity`` which Chairman Mao Tse-tung and our own Mahatmaji have promulgated in this generation.
. . . It was not to be expected that the great Shaikh Sa`di in his Gulisyan, the most widely read of all Persian books, would say anything shocking to the religious consciousness of his time. And yet his estimate of Mahmud is low and, in fact, cruel. . . There was for Shaikh Sa`di and his contemporaries no question of Mahmud`s services to Islam. They were not members of the Indo-Turkish governing class of Delhi and Daulatabad, under whose aegis most legends about Sultan Mahmud were manufactured. . . It is only when Islamic ideals were suppressed in order to manufacture Islam into a governing-class creed that Mahmud could become `a religious hero`. And the most impossible dream of modern imperialisms -- the `dream imperialism` of the Pan-Islamists -- keeps that fiction alive. . .

---

[Chapter I describes the Muslim world in the tenth century.]
Chapter II - Career of Sultan Mahmud
[Part of the description of the sacking of Somnath.]
Somnath (1025-26)

Northern India had ceased to attract Mahmud, for the spoils of its most wealthy temples were already in his treasury. But the rich and prosperous province of Gujarat was still untouched, and on October 18, 1025, he started from Ghazni with his regular troops and thirty thousand volunteer-horsemen for the temple of Somnath, situated at the distance of a bow-shot from the mouth of the Saraswati, by the side of which the earthly body of Lord Krishna had breathed its last.

The temple of Somnath

``The people of Hind``, says Ferishta (following Ibn-i Asir) ``believed that souls after separating from their bodies came to Somnath, and the god assigned to each soul, by way of transmigration, such new body as it deserved. . . . Somnath was the king, while other idols were merely his door-keepers and chamberlains. A hundred thousand people used to collect together in the temple at the time of the solar and lunar eclipses. . . The princes of Hindustan had endowed it with about ten thousand villages. A thousand Brahmans worshipped the idol continuously. . .``

Battle of Somnath

. . . [After a fierce and close battle] Mahmud entered the temple and possessed himself of its fabulous wealth. `Not a hundredth part of the gold and precious stones he obtained from Somnath were to be found in the treasury of any king of Hindustan.` Later historians have related how Mahmud refused the enormous ransom offered by the Brahmans, and preferred the title of `Idol-breaker`(But-shikan) to that of `Idol-seller` (But-farosh). He struck the idol with his mace and his piety was instantly rewarded by the precious stones that came out of its belly. This is an impossible story. Apart from the fact that it lacks all contemporary confirmation, the Somnath idol was a solid unsculptured linga, not a statue, and stones could not have come out of its belly. That the idol was broken is unfortunately true enough, but the offer of the Brahmans, and Mahmud`s rejection of the offer, is a fable of later days.

Chapter III - The Character and value of Mahmud`s Work
No honest historian should seek to hide, and no Musalman acquainted with his faith will try to justify, the wanton destruction of temples that followed in the wake of the Ghaznavid army. Contemporary as well as later historians do not attempt to veil the nefarious acts but relate them with pride. . . Islam sanctioned neither the vandalism nor the plundering motives of the invader; no principle known to the Shariat justified the uncalled for attack on the Hindu princes who had done Mahmud and his subjects no harm; the wanton destruction of places of worship is condemned by the law of every creed. And yet Islam, though it was not an inspiring motive, could be utilized as an a posteriori justification for what had been done. It was not difficult to identify the spoliation of non-Muslim populations with service to Islam. . .
It is a situation to make one pause. With a new faith everything depends on the method of presentation. It will be welcomed if it appears as a message of hope, and hated if it wears the mask of a brutal terrorism. Islam as a world force is to be judged by the life of the Prophet and the policy of the Second Caliph. Its early successes were really due to its character as a revolutionary force against religions that had lost their hold on the minds of the people and against social and political systems that were grinding down the lower classes. . . Now Hinduism with its intense and living faith was something quite unlike the Zoroastrianism of Persia and the Christianity of Asia Minor, which had so easily succumbed before the invader; it suffered from no deep seated internal diseases and, a peculiarity of the national character of the Hindus,. . . was their intense satisfaction and pride in their customs. . . People with this insularity of outlook were not likely to lend their ears to a new message. But the policy of Mahmud secured the rejection of Islam without a hearing.

It was inevitable that the Hindus should consider Islam a deviation from the truth when its followers deviated so deplorably from the path of rectitude and justice. A people is not conciliated by being robbed of all that it holds most dear, nor will it love a faith that comes to it in the guise of plundering armies and leaves devastated fields and ruined cities as monuments of its victorious method for reforming the morals of a prosperous but erratic world.

`The evil that men do lives after them; the good is often buried with their bones!` Mahmud`s work, whatever it might have been was swept off fifteen years after his death by the Hindu revival. . . East of Lahore no trace of the Musalmans remained; and Mahmud`s victories, while they failed to shake the moral confidence of Hinduism, won an everlasting infamy for his faith. Two centuries later, men who differed from Mahmud as widely as two human beings can possibly differ, once more brought Islam into the land. . . With the proper history of our country Mahmud has nothing to do. But we have inherited from him the most bitter drop in our cup. To later generations Mahmud became the arch-fanatic he never was; and in that `incarnation` he is still worshipped by such Musalmans as have cast off the teachings of Lord Krishna in their devotion to minor gods. Islam`s worst enemies have ever been its own fanatical followers.


Chapter IV - Fall of the Ghaznavid Empire
[This details the wars of succession after Mahmud`s death in 1030]
Tilak, the Hindu

The career of Tilak, the Hindu, shows the rapidity with which Hindus and Musalmans were both forgetting their religious differences in the service of a common king and the superbly oriental feeling of loyalty to the salt. Though the son of a barber, he was of handsome appearance, had studied `dissimulation, amours and witchcraft` in Kashmir and wrote excellent Hindi and Persian. He had first entered the service of Qazi Shirazi but left it for the better prospects offered by the Khwaja, to whom he acted as secretary and interpreter and was entrusted by him with the most delicate affairs. Even the Khwaja`s fall did him no harm, for Mahmud wanted clever and energetic young men and Tilak`s fortune kept on improving. Soyand Rai, the general of the Indian troops, took the wrong side on the succession question, and when he was slain in the skirmish against Ayaz, Ma`sud appointed Tilak to the vacant post. `Thus he obtained the name of a man.` ``Kettledrums were beaten in his quarters according to the custom of Hindu chiefs and banners with gilded tops were granted.`` He had an army under his command, the tent and the umbrella of a Ghaznavid general, and sat in the charmed circle of the sultan`s confidential officers. ``Wise men do not wonder at such facts,`` says the reflective Baihaqi,``because nobody is born great -- men become such. This Tilak had excellent qualities and all the time he lived he sustained no injury on account of being the son of a barber.``

Tilak drew up the plan of his campaign [against the rebellious commander of Punjab, in 1033], and as soon as it was sanctioned by the sultan, hastened against the rebel. Niyaltigin was unable to hold Lahore and fled towards the desert, and Tilak followed close on his heels with an army consisting mostly of Hindus. . . Niyaltigin was defeated in battle and his Turkoman soldiers came over to Tilak in a body. . . [Niyaltigin] was ultimately slain by the Jats while attempting to cross the Indus.

#459 by faisaluno on November 14, 2005 6:15pm PT


now, secular europeans are having problems dealing with muslim europeans.


And there is no way the fault could lie with the muslims..The rioting and suicide bombgins in the UK..the trouble in denmark, the rioting in france...the terrorism in spain...

Maybe the Europeans are sick of having to give up their freedoms to accomodate the Islamists..maybe they`re sick of the muslims whining about racism when the richest European is a non-white.

Romair:

First of all, I agree that you never lose your temper. Congratulations! Yes, I have lost my cool on some occasions, which makes me more human than you (just kidding!).

Wikipedia can be a reliable source for many things and not so reliable for others. Anyone who refers to ``Chanda Ashoka`` for being a murderer couldn`t be well informed about India. Anyone will tell you that the word is ``Chandaal`` or ``Chandala``. I am sure you know what chanda means.

I read about Ashoka first in grade school where he was referred to as part of the Mauryan dynasty. After a brief description of his Kalinga invasion and embrace of Buddhism, the rest was devoted to his edicts, stupas, etc. and his role in the spread of Buddhism to India and abroad. There was no mention of his continuing with his attacks after Kalinga. After that, I have read about him in Nehru`s Discovery of India and many other Indian and foreign historians, such as A.L. Basham but I dont recall anyone mentioning his conquests after Kalinga. In this connection, please remember that Ashoka was not an ordinary brigand-turned-emperor but had inherited the vast Mauryan empire founded by Chandra Gupta Maurya.

But all this is somewhat unnecessary to recount. What matters is perceptions. Whatever he did, in India he is remembered and admired not because of his bloody conquests but as the great follower of Buddha who did wonderful things for the country. Indians admire Ashoka for his stupas, his edicts, his missionary work and, for me, that amazing Ashoka Pillar near Qutab Minar in Delhi which is a standing tribute to the metallurgical genius of our ancestors.

tahmed32:

I would like to correct a technical error I made in my earlier post on Buddha and the prevailing orthodoxy. I had said that people believed that they had to go through 184,000 lives before getting out of the cycle of life and death, or attain Nirvana/Moksha. The actual number is 84 lakhs.

bahram #481 actually what i wrote in #477 was ``Clearly, an expatriate community is a source of great strength to Pakistan in a number of ways as you say.`` I didnt say anything about whether or not the pakistan government appreciates them. But since you raise this point, let me say that i dont think you are quite correct here - the prime minister is an expatriate, as well as many top people in the economic team (state bank governor, sec head, etc.). even more important, the average pakistani sees expats as being one of their own (after all, they are often brothers and sisters and first cousins to them), and as such there is no resentment against the expats holding some of the best govt jobs. but the important thing is, to borrow from kennedy`s famous words, ``not what pakistan can do for the expats, rather what the expats can do for pakistan``.

#487 rsridhar: you misread what i wrote. kindly re-read.

Ranjit...

Asoka`s Wheel is on the Indian flag... and contrary to what might be claimed, it does not represent Asoka`s post Buddhist phase as far as I know. Feel free to correct me.

The original name of Pakistan`s missile series was ``Hataf``- named after Prophet Muhammad`s (PBUH) spear... Ghori was a response to India`s Prithvi, which I grant you was ignorance on part of Pakistani ``missile-namers`` because India did not name prithvi after Prithvi Raj Chauhan... but correct me on that one as well if I am wrong... Personally I`d like our missiles to be named after Dullah Bhatti... the separatist ... and you could name your missiles Akbar or Mughal-e-Azam if you want... (however it becomes problematic because you consider the same indigenous Mughal emperor`s great grandson- the fifth generation Indian prince Aurangzeb- to be a ``foreign invader``.)

Shivaji and other great Hindu rulers/warriors of the past were no less violent than Mahmud and/or Aurangzeb... Shivaji was proclaimed as the great symbol of Indian nationalism by very moderate men... and Nehru (yes the secular liberal Nehru) actually wrote a whole introduction to the greatness of Shivaji in Maharashtra`s textbooks for children...


Kaalchakra...

Romair says and does a lot of things... but I would hope he meant that.

I don`t have much information on Ghaznavi`s temple myself... except that it was for the large number of Hindu soldiers in his army. Another oddity is that Bamiyan Statues remained untouched during his reign.

Sincerely

Yasser