Indo-Pak History via Mail

Mantolives

History is so utterly concocted and cooked up in India that we are not taught the important fact that Ghaznavi built a temple for his Hindu soldiers in Ghazni. It will be great to know the details of the temple he had built. Was it Somnath kind of temple or something else?

Re:Mantolives#492

Are Indians naming their missiles Ashoka and sending in hindu jihadies in Ashoka`s name to kill Pakistanis? It is unimaginable!! On the other hand, Pakistanis are actually naming their missiles Ghaznavi and sending in jihadies with Ghaznavi as their role model to kill Indians. That is the difference between the two. Hope you and Romair can understand this.

Indians want to forget the past and look to the future. Pakistanis want to ignore the future and live in the past. That is the difference between the two people. I am sure if India looks into its history, it can find bloodthirsty rulers as cruel as Ghaznavi. However, India does not even care to remember them, let alone make them heroes.

In fact, if you think about it, India had every reason to have a hateful agenda after 1947. A millenia of imperial rule, extreme exploitation by the brits to the point of penury, a bitter division of the country with a holocaust, there was so much to be resentful about. In fact, there were enough grievances there for every Indian to become a suicide bomber. However, it didnt happen that way. Indians had the wisdom to ignore the past history and try to build a modern nation. It hasnt been easy but at least it tries to adopt a positive agenda.

Pakistan on the other hand, had little reason to be so hateful. Muslims had ruled the subcontinent for centuries and now the brits had split it up and given a reasonable share to them. They should have been happy building their new country. Maybe they didnt rule the subcontinent any more but that was because they wanted to split away. In either case, Pakistanis had no earthly reason to adopt Ghaznavi and other marauders as heroes and indulge in India hatred for the past 60 years. There are enough positive muslim heroes to embrace but Pakistan chose not to do so. This negative agenda is responsible for the state of Pakistan today.

Now that the jihadies seem to be blowing up Paharganj in Delhi one week and Karachi the second week, hopefully Pakistan will realize the folly of its policies.

Manto

That`s a good statement, better than, unfortunately, any that Romair made. May be that is what he is trying to say.

The key point here is that they are both equal or `equivalent` because they are both celebrated for their invasions and their bloody campaigns against other peoples.

That fact would certainly make them equal.

Far from it that I agree with Romair`s simplistic analysis, but he does have a point.

In Pakistan we are taught about Ashok-e-Azam the same way we are taught about Mahmud Ghaznavi, Akbar, Aurangzeb ... he is seen as a great King who united India and then converted to Buddhism...

Now.. if one wishes to demonise Mahmud Ghaznavi for being the looting marauder that he was and make an ideological issue out of it ... then why should one not question Ashok-e-Azam?

Or are the sins of previous battles just washed away... because Ashok-e-Azam renounced violence ? It must be recalled that Hindus don`t admire Ashok-e-Azam for those reasons... Asoka`s Wheel which replaced Gandhi`s Charkha on the Congress/Indian flag is symbolic of Asoka`s invasions and the bloody phase of his life, when according to legend he killed his 99 brothers... as for renunciation of violence: In Urdu we say... ``Nau sau chuhay khaa kar billi Hajj ko chali``... So ... by the same token does the fact that Mahmud Ghaznavi built a temple for his Hindu soldiers in Ghazni account for something?

This is by no means a defence of Ghaznavi.. nor should it be taken as such.

Romair

There must be some point that you are trying to make that none of us Indians are getting. So help us here a little bit.

Are you sugggesting something along the following lines:

Ghaznavi invaded. He was an invader. Killed people.
Ashoka invaded. He was an invader. Killed people.

Hence Gazhnavi = Ashoka.

Or, in the history of mankind, all those kings or leaders who attacked other groups and killed people = Ghaznavi, and are = Ashoka.

Is that the logic of your equivalence?

I mean, do you really believe that, or are you making up a ``theory`` for one purpose and one time?

PS..

A position seconded, may I add, by Dr B R Ambedkar, the father of Indian constitution.. and the most impartial actor of the time.

salim,

Have you had the opportunity of reading of reading H M Seervai`s ``Partition of India: Legend or reality`` ? It is based entirely on primary source documents and Azad`s recollections of partition... H M Seervai`s was a parsi jurist whose book on constitutional law is a must for all lawyers in India... I suppose because he was parsi he may be rejected for ``anti-Hindu`` bias by our ``secular nationalists`` from India who believe Hindu cultural life is the central motif of Indian nationalism.

From this book one gets the feeling that Vajpayee, Indira and Advani combined hold no candle to the selfishness and deviousness of the Congress trio of Nehru, Patel and Gandhi... Gandhi being the kingpin.

Re: # 414

HPji,


I am sorry for such silly accusations. Emotions got better of me. Aaisi galati aainda
nahi hogi. I have no reasons to accuse you or your father and grandfathers
of any such evildoing. I am sure you all are honourable folks in real life.
So do accept my apology if you can.

Regarding no Sindhi got killed, most of them still got kicked out never to visit again.
There was no place for them in Sindh. May be we will continue this discussion some
other time if you care.
Got to fix some code and publish annual diwali magazine this Saturday.

I Just logged on, was taking a little break from work work work.

re:#465 by tahmed32
What is the basis of your assertion that India is only slightly not significantly ahead of Pak in software? That is a laugh. Please post the relevant data or proof.
I am not going to post the data for Indian software which has been done many times in the past. Pak is not even on the software map, AFAIK.
Sridhar

re:#462 by behram1
Abey Haraam key,
The bet is on who is going to be the winner: China or India. Right now China is ahead but India is catching up. China is a worthy opponent and there is much respect in India and even US for China`s achievements. I am sure your puny little brain won`t grasp all this.
Anyway, congrats, u made it to bharatrakshak thread.
In answer to your letter to Daily times that said:
(Promoting hate

Sir: I am writing with reference to the ‘image’ problem Pakistan has been facing internationally, a problem which Pakistani governmental officials have constantly reminded the citizens about.

These days the Internet is being used to spread hatred of Pakistan blah blah blah...)
this is what someone in that thread had to say:
(A pakistani writing about ``code of ethics`` . ROTFL
Then again this asshole shows his true PAKINESS by expecting that the World Owes it to Pakistan to stop anyone from publishing the truth.)
Me? I too am ROTFL.
Sridhar

re:#396 by HP
I do not know what HP stands for. It could be Hounded Pervert or as someone said, Hacked Penis. Why are u so fixated on Modi, BTW. Are u having nightmares about him?
In India, Modi is popular in Gujarat, not just because he killed some muslims (that does make him popular with the fundamentalist crowd) but also because he has brought in lot of investment and Gujarat is among the fastest growing state in India.
Now, he does not command majority in the entire India neither does his brand of politics. If it did, BJP would be ruling the state today.
Invent something better to whip the hindus next time. Modi has become stale.
Sridhar

For the record...

Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhammad Ghori are NOT my heroes. I detest them as much as I detest Mohandas Gandhi, Maududi, Modi, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Maulana Fazlur Rahman and Maulana Sammy Sanwich .

re: one of Romair moron`s posts
``Ashoka did the same. He conquered, killed and invaded. Didn`t he continue expanding his empire and controlling it, even after he became a Bhuddhist?``
No, he did not continue his violent means after he became a buddhist.
Does this guy Romair have any brains or perhaps he has brains where everybody else has B@lls. The guy is simply incorrigible!
I gave him 2 references from historians and still he rambles on with his own version. As P.G. Wodehouse would say, the guy has an I.Q of a cuckoo bird, to the bird`s advantage!
Sridhar

Dost-mittar #468: ``There is something in the chowk format which seems to bring out the worst confrontationist in us. The format encourges insults, slights and confrontations instead of trying to learn from each other.``

I think people only abuse, when they run out of arguments. If I can prove to you that the sun comes out of the East, I don`t need to abuse you. It is only if I am trying to prove that the sun comes out of the West, and cannot do so, that I need to rely on abuse..........

To the best of my knowledge, while I enjoy heated debates, I have never abused anyone on this site. Nor have I indulged in name-calling. And I have been here for six years, or so. And I think I can say with a lot of confidence that I may have attracted more abuse than anyone else on this site. I get it from all directions. Men and women. Secularists and maulvis. Pakistanis of all ilks and Indians of all colors Including on a few odd occasions, you.....

Hence I don`t think you can put me in your category of confrotationists (in an abusing sense). So this rule does not apply to everyone. There are various different ways to look at it. A US reporter, when asked how he knows he is being objective, replied: When half my hate mail is from Republicans and half from Democrats, I know I am being objective.

That is the rule I use. As long as one is being abused from all directions, genders, and nationalities, and one does not have some single group of die-hard supporters, one can safely conclude that one is being objective..........

As for mainstream Indian media. I read it quite a bit. Yes, it certainly isn`t as bad as this site, in its anti-Pakistani-ness and anti-Muslimness. But it is still very biased towards the govts. official line, towards Pakistan. It toes the Indian govts` line on most other issues realted to Pakistan. For example, in the latest Delhi blasts, it declared Pakistan the culprit, within hours, the moment some govt. official muttered something. There was no call for an independent inquiry or proof. The Pakistani English media, takes exactly the opposite view, and criticizes the govt. if it declares India the culprit without proof..........

I would say Vereesh`s comments fall into the line of the Indian media. Not hatred, but more nuanced support of the Indian govt`s line on Pakistan..........

The Indian media, however, is not nearly as anti-Muslim in general (unlike most Indian interactors on this site).............

Re: # 469

Dear tahmed32:

If I may disagree with you a tiny winy bit, regarding Pakistan respecting Pakistani expat community.

I don`t think that the paindoo administrations that we constantly get in Islamabad cares a 2 cents hoot about the $100 Billion total net asset valued Pakistani expat community. They always have their head in some elephant`s @ss, or some donkey`s @ss, or so it seems.

If the rulers of Pakistan were smart, would you not see that they provide for us to come back home? Would you not see that they treat us royally? Would you not see senior citizen`s community developed across Pakistan with the best medical, best security, and best living conditions made available. All we hear is some @ss talking head and full of nonsensical slogans.

As you very well know, as soon as someone from abroad enters Karachi airport, crooks are waiting to rob the visiting expat of all their belongings, and some more. These paindoos can`t even provide safety and protection for its senior countrymen. And yet, they have big $ss slogans....``mulk ko sunwaaro....karsa utaro....``

Yeah right!

As always, I

Respectfully submit,

Dost-mittar #463: ``Your outlandish comparison of Ashok and Ghazni shows that you are ignorant about one or both of them. As far as I am aware, even during Kalinga campaign, Ashok did not kill non-combatants nor indulged in the destruction and looting of civilians.``

Hmm...Either I am ignorant or you are ignorant. Although, you seem to have already concluded that I am the ignorant person. I must admit I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to idolize their historical figures. My comparison of any invader is based on one simple concept: Did he, or did he not invade other areas and kill other people. If he did, then he is an invader. Doesn`t matter, if he was a Hindu or a Muslim, or a Bhuddhist or Sikh. Unless of course, one wants to decide one`s heroes and villians based on religion. The exact concept you, yourself, regularly denounce.......

Read any objective history of Ashoka, and you will find a view different from yours. Here is some from wikipedia:

``Prince Ashoka attacked Pataliputra (modern day Patna), and beheaded all his brothers, including Susima, and threw their bodies in a well in Pataliputra. At that stage of his life, many called him Chanda Ashoka meaning murderer and heartless Ashoka........

Kalinga put up a stiff resistance, but they were no match for Ashoka`s brutal strength. The whole of Kalinga was plundered and destroyed: Ashoka`s later edicts say that about 100,000 people were killed on the Kalinga side and 10,000 from Ashoka`s army; thousands of men and women were deported.....one day after the war was over, Ashoka ventured out to roam the city and all he could see were burnt houses and scattered corpses.... `` (wikipedia.com)

So, let`s stick with history. It was only after this that Ashoka denounced such deeds. But he kept on invading South Asia. This is my point. Lets call a spade a spade. An invader is an invader. It is wrong to elevate invaders, based on religion. As wrong for Hindus as it is for Muslims...........

``There is not even a single Indian who does not think of Akbar as a Muslim. He is not even a hero to all Indians.``

Akbar was an invader also. I am quite sure he killed a lot of Hindus. Probably moreso than his son and grandson. My comments on Akbar were in reply to Anil`s comments where Anil stated, ``BTW, Indian historians, recognize both Ashoka (more Buddhist than Hindu) and Akbar (hardly Hindu and certainly Muslim) as two genuine Emperors of India.``

Let`s cut through the fairytales, and acknowledge every invader as an invader, and base them on the number of people they killed and people they invaded. Not by their religion, or where their religion orignated from, or their ethnicity etc..............This is the whole concept various Indians (correctly in my opinion) accuse Pakistanis of. Why is it so difficult for our Indian colleagues to apply the same rule onto themselves......

If today I kill 100,000 Indians and become Bhuddhist, will you forgive my murders? If not, then why are you so bent upon forgiving Ashokas. Even though, even after becoming a Bhuddhist, he kept going on with his empire...............