Indo-Pak History via Mail

The subject is excellent and it does need a good and hearty discussion. Culture or heritage is not something that you flip like real estate in a good market or rent it out in a slow market.

There is a tendency in some Indians to attempt to impose their cultural views on Pakistanis. This article tends to take a condescending tone when Amal writes “What you are saying is No Kushan Kings ever existed in Pakistan (Kanishka is one of them)” and continues with mildly accusatory tone that Ali is refusing to recognize something that is very much part of the current Pakistan.

I strongly feel that Pakistanis are not trying to forget the cultural heritage they have but they are antagonized when Indians show proprietary claims on the symbols of the Indus civilization. Once Indians make a proprietary claim on some artifacts in Pakistan, the initial response is to reject those artifacts. The complicated relationship Pakistan and India have, has more to do with Pakistan attitude than the outwardly show of disowning the entire heritage.

It is quite clear after 60 years of Partition that the new generations of Pakistanis are not excited about the cultural roots and heritage they share with Indians.
Pak-India never had normal neighborly relations and the human nature makes it difficult to co-own something with an almost enemy. You cannot be partners with someone you have inimical relations.

We also cannot ignore the fact that most of the Indian authors and historians attempt to portray this heritage as Hindu rather than Indian. That causes a serious rift. Pakistan came into being due to religious hostility between Hindus and Muslims to begin with and when a cultural icon is presented as a Hindu symbol than it is hard for Muslims in India or in Pakistan to associate with that.


There are forces in Pakistan that certainly attempt to pull Pakistan towards the ME on the basis of religion but that is a temporary phase as everything would eventually pull towards progress and the Islamic influence on Pakistan is unlikely to last long.

The Pakistani identity is still evolving and Pakistanis will be pulled in different directions but it is quite clear now that Pakistani may never enthusiastically identify with the common heritage with Indians but may still be influenced by the modern Indian culture.

an aside… Taxila developed under the Persian influence as a Buddhist city and university. It would be a better idea for Indian to look for inspiration from Naland rather than Taxila. Though Naland was also a Buddhist city and university. Calling Taxila School a university is not just either. The place probably had not more than two room for education and most of the classes, if any, were held under the trees. I felt like visiting a Buddha stupa making factory when I first visited Taxila.
Moenjo daro has much lively feel to it than taxila. This clearly was just a commercial center for making and selling religious symbols and Buddha stupa.

I can never figure out why various Indians try to align Pakistan`s history or culture with India. Pakistan`s history and cultures doesn`t have anything to do with India. After all, what in the world do I have in common with some guy from Tamil Nadu? I probably have more in common with a guy from Afghanistan or Iran..........

Pakistan has a common culture with two ares currently in India. Perhaps three. One is commonality between East and West Punjab. The second is the commonality between Indian Kashmir and Pakistan Kashmir. And the third (maybe) the commonalities between the Muhajirs in Pakistan and the Indian Muslims in areas they left behind..........

Hence all this talk of finding one`s heritage in India is non-factual. Sind is totally in Pakistan. It may have been influenced by adjacent areas, but that does not mean a common culture. Baluchistan is in Pakistan. NWFP has cultural ties with Afghanistan. Leaving behind Punjab and Kashmir. Interestingly in both Kashmir and Punjab, it is the Pakistani part which is the central base, and the Indian parts which are the sattelites.......

A third area would be East Pakistan and Indian Bengal. Even there, though Calcutta is in India, my guess would be that Bangladesh would be the central base of that civilization.........

Based on the above, it should be Indian Punjabis and Indian Kashmiris who should be looking for their heritage in Pakistan. And Indian Bengalis who should be looking for their heritage in Bangladesh. Not vice-versa..........

When the Sub-Continent split, it really split only in two places: Punjab and Bengal (Kashmir is disputed territory). The rest of the areas and civilizations remain intact and isolated..........So we need to get out of the habits of trying to make unnecessary attachments, where none existed, historically........

Once again, while I have a hell of a lot common with the local Sardarji who runs my neigbhoring vegetarian restaurant. And I love cracking dirty jokes with him in Punjabi. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out, what I have in common with the Malyalam speaking guy who regularly sits at the table next to me, in the restaurant, and smiles at mea as he devours his Bhel Puri and Tofu..............

Infact, Bhupinder Singh, himself, keeps telling me, that, even he - an Indian - cannot understand a single word the Malyalam speaking gentleman says to him, and thus considers him an alien South Indian................

There is another issue…If we were to accept the common heritage, should we also accept the pillar of Hindu/Santana Dharma/Varna (or whatever the heck the other new names are) Casteism?

Neither Taxila, nor Nalanda or Moen Jo daro are symbols of Hindu India. We don’t know about Moenjo daro religion but we do know about Taxila and Nalanda. Both cities were Buddhist.

That kind of brings up the subject whether Hinduism as it is today, is an Indian religion at all.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/casteindia.htm

By Robert Cooke, Newsday
San Francisco Chronicle, 26 May, 1999

like an indelible signature enduring through a hundred generations, genes that entered India when conquering hordes swooped down from the north thousands of years ago are still there, and remain entrenched at the top of the caste system, scientists report. Analyses of the male Y chromosome, plus genes hidden in small cellular bodies called mitochondria, show that today`s genetic patterns agree with accounts of ancient Indo-European warriors` conquering the Indian subcontinent.

The invaders apparently shoved the local men aside, took their women and set up the rigid caste system that exists today. Their descendants are still the elite within Hindu society.

Thus today`s genetic patterns, the researchers explained, vividly reflect a historic event, or events, that occurred 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. The gene patterns ``are consistent with a historical scenario in which invading Caucasoids -- primarily males -- established the caste system and occupied the highest positions, placing the indigenous population, who were more similar to Asians, in lower caste positions.``

The researchers, from the University of Utah and Andhra Pradesh University in India, used two sets of genes in their analyses.

One set, from the mitochondria, are only passed maternally and can be used to track female inheritance. The other, on the male-determining Y chromosome, can only be passed along paternally and thus track male inheritance.

The data imply, then, ``that there was a group of males with European affinities who were largely responsible for this invasion 3,000 or 4,000 years ago,`` said geneticist Lynn Jorde of the University of Utah.

If women had accompanied the invaders, he said, the evidence should be seen in the mitochondrial genes, but it is not evident.

According to geneticist Douglas Wallace of Emory University in Atlanta, the work reported by Jorde and his colleagues ``is very interesting, and is certainly worth further study.``

Along with Jorde, the research team included Michael Bamshad, W.S. Watkins and M.E. Dixon from Utah and B.B. Rao, B.V.R. Prasad and J.M. Naidu, from Andhra Pradesh University.


``Our expectations in this natural experiment are borne out when we look at the genes,`` said Jorde. ``It`s one of the few cases where we know the mating situation in a population for 150 generations. So it`s kind of a test for how well the genes reflect a population`s history.``

The ancient story holds that invaders known as Indo-Europeans, or true Aryans, came from Eastern Europe or western Asia and conquered the Indian subcontinent. The people they subdued descended from the original inhabitants who had arrived far earlier from Africa and from other parts of Asia.”

Does this mean that south Indians share African genes or are they negroid?

This `whatyoumaycallit` reminds me of an illustration where four blindfolded men grope different parts of an elephant and try to guess what it is they are touching :-)

Amal is on the dot... cultural heritage should be celebrated... there is no point in rejecting history...

I agree with Romair`s post in entirety...

However... this is not what the article is talking about.

The first migration to the Indian sub continent took place from Africa around 40,000 years ago. The travel took mankind all the way to Australia from Africa. You have to realise that the levels of the ocean were around 200 feet less during that period, so there was a land bridge all the way to Australia.

The second migration to Indian sub continent took place around 30000 years ago. The journey taken was through Europe, Central Asia and then south to the India subcontinent. Most of the men from the first migration dissappeared during this period, while the women survived. So there must have been war with the second lot of people killing the first lot of males.

The males of the population (second migration )are represented by the genetic marker ``M20``, and this is rarely found outside the Indian sub continent. (Both north and South) A vast majority of the population (male) is represented by this genetic marker in our subcontinent.

Subsequently many migrations took place but they were much smaller in nature. I had always been told by my grandfather that our family came from the Synthians, much later into India. So I was surprised when I found out that I had the M20 marker, which meant that my ancestors came to India much much earlier. It is fashionable for some quarters of society in the indian sub continent to proudly talk about their Arab background. However a simple DNA test by National Geographic will show what route your ancestors took to get where you are.

In todays day and age, what or who are we ???? Over a period of time, we have formed communities and countries to protect ourselves. According to me they are nothing more than clubs, to which we get automatic membership by birth. There is nothing divine if there is anything divine in the first place.

I was also reading that it takes 20 to 25 generations for the colour of the skin to change according to the climatic conditions. Thus a Black who goes to live in Siberia will find that if he could look into the future, that after 25 generations his offsprings would be as ``white`` as the local Russians.

HP has written ``Culture or heritage is not something that you flip like real estate in a good market or rent it out in a slow market. There is a tendency in some Indians to attempt to impose their cultural views on Pakistanis``

I think that in todays day and age, as human beings in this world, we can be proud of all of mankinds acheivements, whether its the Taj Mahal, the Pyramids or the Great wall of China. They are all part of our glorious cultural acheivements, yours and mine to share and enjoy.

So live learn and enjoy.

The piece lacks purpose and its not clear what the author wants to say or conclude.

History itself has many facets. One is the history of a geographical region, Next, there is history of the people inhabiting that region at a particular point of time. Third, there is the history of a Modern Nation.

To understand above let us take the case history of USA. If you look at the history of geographic USA, then it would essentially be the history of its native i.e. Red Indians. Thereafter European Settelers arrived the dominant among them were the Britishers who subdued the native population. And in 1776, independent USA was born. So what is the history of USA today. Is it that of Red Indians or the European(i.e. British) History. In fact it none. Today Americans derive their history from George Washington i.e. from 1776 onwards and not from British or Red Indians` History.

Similar is the case of Pakistan, which is a new nation like USA. It has a geographical History i.e. pre-islamic Sindh, Balochistan, Pathans and Punjab etc. Then it has an Islamic History of these regions and then the history of Pakistan as a nation i.e. from 1947 onwards.

Now since Pakistan has/had decided to separate from the Indian mainland, the history of the Indian mainland has no value for Pakistan as the nation. Yes, the mainland Indian history is only relevant to those who migrated to Pakistan from India. Looking into reverse perspective, the histories of Balochistan, Sindh and Pathans have no relevance for India now except for Punjab and Kashmir which are shared by two countries. Anther example could be that while Mughal History is the history of India but Mughal History is not the history of Pakistani Nation, but yes, it is THE history of Pakistani people.

However, as the world is coming closer due to advancement in technologies and ease in travel, the concept of Human History is being replaced by Human Heritage. As the peoples of different regions/religions/nations are coming closer and they wil come closer and closer in the future, they are finding that history divides. To overcome that, all the different human histories are being seen as human heritage. In that way, the history oi Sindh & Balochistan do become a part of Indian Heritage and the same way Taxila, Nalanda etc. become also become a part of Pakistani heritage.

Thanks.

Re: # 7

a very sensible and enjoyable and informative interact. Thank you for this.

Can you give the details of how/where we can get the information regarding the M20 markers - you suggest National Geographic? But somemore details would be great.

#8
I agree with you - you are essentially talking about a system with a finite memory window. It shoudl never never infinite - that way lies ruination.



Those who realise that Time never stands still, also realise the stories never stand still - they are constantly renovated, reinvented and modified.

However, we need to be absolutely clear that : There is never a past, and the future is many and undetermined. The present is only one - in fact THE ONE.

Since it is the one, and should be memoryless - -> the many futures are dictated by the choices made in the now (almost like a memoryless markovian process)

Note: some memory is retained with a covariance factor - hence the many stories (all having similar expected values), there will be a bias in the selection of choices. The key is the elimination of this bias. That is when progress occurs.
[Reply to interact #3]

I agree with Ashgar Ali on this.

HP,
You are mostly right on your first post that Indians tend to shove their history onto Pakistanis and that only produces the opposite effect. But about Taxila, its not just Buddhist but Hindu also. Its students, teachers as well as patrons were both hindus and buddhists, and you cannot really split india`s history as hindu part and buddhist part, because they have way too much in common.

#1 HP

Yes, it`s all Indian`s fault...... The article was supposed to be about pakis` problem with identity/heritage or whatever .... the very first post blames it Indians.... I mean, what else is new?

Re: # 11 viv
[....You are mostly right on your first post that Indians tend to shove their history onto Pakistanis..]

Really? How excatly do the big bad Indians shove anything on pakis?..... Do we write their history books, run their schools, colleges or cultural organizations, gov`t education departments?..... heck, pakis don`t even get our newspapers, or movies[officially banned]....

The truth is that - Indians really don`t cares what identity/heritage pakis follow or don`t, that`s none of our business .... only people who keep harping on ``common`` heritage and all that bullsh!t Kuldip Nayar and a bunch of peacniks..... pakis usually ignore these fools, and rightly so....

So don`t feed the junky with false drugs, OK? ..... Indians have no brief on paki heritage.... they can import and implant an entire new heritage from bedouins if that`s what works for them..... we don`t give a flying f***

Re: # 13

Exactly. Just do not send your jihadis in India and do not keep harping on Kashmir
as unfinished business of partition.
I think Indians will then stop visiting such sites and in real life be oblivious to Pakistan.
You are as it is doing fine job with whatever you got after separating
from India and Hindus for whatever reasons and almost exterminating them
from your part of world.
Most of the Indians have zilch interest in what Pakistanis take pride in and want
to associate with.

The sooner the pakis create a seperate and distinct identity for themselves, the better it is for Indians..no pakis running Indian food restaurants..no Indo-Pak grocery stores...

Get as much distance as possible between the people of the London suicide bombing fame and Indians who are famous for producing people like this....

Lakshmi Mittal is Europe`s richest

November 11, 2005 18:54 IST

Non-Resident Indian business tycoon Lakshmi Mittal, who owns world`s largest steel company Mittal Steel, has emerged as the richest man in Europe with a wealth worth 24 billion euros, a study has said.

#5 by Mantolives on November 11, 2005 1:46am PT


there is no point in rejecting history...


The next time there is a terrorist attack, I`m planning to sell ``I`m and Indian, not a Pakistani`` t-shirts...

My guess is Pakis will be the biggest customers...the ones who don`t get deported or leave voluntarily anyway....