Songs of Dissonance

#52

1. The husband is duty bound, according to the Quran, to give Mahr- which is a reasonable amount of his property according to means, mutally agreed upon, required as a condition of marriage. It is supposed to ensure a woman`s financial independence, see 4:20 for example. Also he is duty bound to provide for the wife and kids even if the wife is wealthy. Then, he is to ensure (see 2:240, 241) that besides all that one years maintainence and residence is left for the widow and for the divorced wife- all this leaves the man (son) at a comparative disadvantage compared to the woman (daughter) in the example of inheritance. Such protection of women`s financial security is unheard of even in so called modern societies. Complaining about the Quran inspite of all this is injustice plain and simple.

2. For polygamy see article at http://women.rationalreality.com

``daughter/son scenario is based upon justice: the daughter is expected to get a huge chunk from the husband upon marriage but the son is supposed to provide for his wife as a duty- and give a huge chunk of that ``double`` to his wife (a woman) and so on``


how exactly does the quran ensure delivery of this ``Huge chunk`` to the wife can u please point it out to me. also while u are at it please define ``Huge Chunk`` in percentage or absolute value. thanks.

I dont oppose polygamy/polyandry but where exactly does the quran place binding restrictions on it, could u please point out. i dont mean the general prescriptive sentence on ensuring justice btween the wives, because that mohommed himself was unable to do, vide: the excessive amount of time he spent with Ayesha near his death.

masadi sahib # 50 writes ``Also, in certain cases, a woman`s testimony carries more weight than a man`s- in the case of a man accusing his wife of adultery- her testimony can override his``

Might I also add that in certain matters, especially dealing with women`s issues, man`s testimony does not carry ANY weight at all...

Great post masadi sahib and an adequate response to habitual Islam haters posing as ``reformers`` and ``intellectuals``. Had they uttered this many sentences without adequately researching a topic in their workplaces, they would have long been fired and sued by their employers for breach of ethics and shameless behaviour.

Hamidm sahib, the head honcho of this flight-brigade has opted for a job as consultant in his real life, which has allowed him to master the art of talking about topics he knows nothing about, all the while charging $300 / hour to the hapless clients.

But thanks to increasing Indian outsourcing, his job of creating powerpoint presentations will soon be outsourced to Indian high school students on summer breaks.

#46-

The Quran itself recommends reason and reflection, the only way to get to the truth is the system of science, using that to test the Quran`s claim of being from God is very valid. The Quran does not recommend unreasoned faith, otherwise it wouldnt argue and reason with the reader time and again. But you are convinced based on hearsay what the Quran is

The ``trivia`` that you say I answered were your objections regarding the book, what you said was ``obvious`` but then presented them in a clumsy fashion. When you interpret laws in a given situation (like inheritance), you cannot detach one portion of the law from other laws that govern that situation, you have to take them as a whole- apparently you want to detach one portion and then apply your interpretation on it, your interpretation being that half of the amount means women are inferior- as if property is the measure of human value etc. Regarding the marrying more than one, I didn`t mention ``justice``- I mentioned the context of the verse which specifically restricts marrying more than one if it is outside the category of ``yatamun nisaa``- for the specific purpose of social justice that is otherwise denied such women- that seems like very good ``reasons`` to me. Look at the poverty statistics of married versus single-parent women in the USA- in many cases restricted polygamy is a better option for women than the hypocrisy of serial monogamy and de-facto polygamy practiced in the U.S.

Regarding testimony, nowhere does the Quran state that women`s testimony is NOT allowed, nowhere, that was a blatant falsehood on your part. Also, in certain cases, a woman`s testimony carries more weight than a man`s- in the case of a man accusing his wife of adultery- her testimony can override his; - I pointed you to my article (http://women.rationalreality.com) which deals with these specific issues that is why I didnt answer all your ``trivia``.

You make claims, which are easily debunked, and then after they have been debunked, you conlcude based upon zero evidence that the Quran is irrational. You are fooling yourself alone when you make claims based upon incomplete knowledge. Freesoul was following a similar line of reasoning, claims but no evidence whatsoever.

``the loss of an educated and inspiring Junaid Jamshed is very dehumanizing.``

I feel that JJ made this comment after a great deliberation.............it appears that he wanted to appear politically correct before some targetted set of people....................why did he do that is something that Pakistanis must know..............

Ahmadmadni # 43

I have no problem with people believing in the super natural a.k.a religion. I have no reason to claim that things i cannot see or perceive do not exist. The simple fact is that as of now, i am unable to ``believe`` in God. It is a state of mind. Its either there or not. As far as I am concerned, its not there.

So people are welcome to their fairy tales. But i cant see why i should ``respect` their states of mind. For one, none of them respects the fact that i dont believe. Why should i respect the fact that they do ?

I do accept that religion helps people in underdeveloped societies. I am glad people in Balakot and Muzzafarabad believe in God because that way they have something/someone to blame it all on. Even if it be themselves.

Thanks

Re:ahmedmadani#

Are you on drugs or are you drunk? You cannot write one sentence of English properly and you want to give advice to others?

First go and get your head examined. You have some fantasy that Pakistan is a democracy. You must be the only Pakistani that has such a delusion. Even Musharraf himself will not say such an absurd thing. You live in a military dictatorship, a fauji hukumat...do you understand what that is?

As far as respect of elders is concerned, respect is earned in this world. Your daughter does not respect you, because you say stupid things like asking her not to put on makeup, even though she is smart enough to go to an engineering college. Any college going woman will put on some makeup because they want to look good for themselves. It does not mean they will sleep with someone. You do not trust your daughter which is why she does not respect your absurd commands.

Similarly Arjun and a lot of Indians like myself do not respect Pakistan as a country. It is not because we blindly hate you for no reason. Rather it is because of your evil deeds as a society and as a country. You took a perfectly good part of the subcontinent in 1947 and turned it into a hell-hole of extreme radical fanatics who want to kill minorities, ahmedis and also go over to India and Afghanistan to kill innocent people as part of jihad. You have destroyed your own country with no law and order, minimal economic opportunities and no freedom for anyone. Islam encourages seeking knowledge but you have no interest in literacy or education in Pakistan. Islamic civilizations produced art and culture in the past. Pakistan produces zero art and zero culture of any kind. After this kind of track record, you want us to respect you? Even muslims countries like Iran or Afghanistan do not respect you.

masadi... # 44

You picked trivia to comment upon. But here is the answer.

1. It is irrelevant whether they receive half as daughter or mother. The question is why at all ? Your answer is because daughters will receive from their husbands also. Typical wanna be rationality answer. So is there a compulsion for women to get married ? And what guarantees that they will receive from their husbands exactly what would equalise what they didnt receive from their parents ? And what is the point of this mathematical antic ? Why couldnt it just be equal for men and women ?

2. Doing justice to more than one wife and having ``reasons`` for marrying more than one wife are two different things. Or are you unable to see that ?

3. You didnt say anything about discriminatory laws of evidence. Why ?

Actually, you have just shown how anxious people like you are to present the Koran in a rational light. Why arent you comfortable with the fact that its God`s word and just because we humans may not be able to see its wisdom doesnt detract from its validity. If I believed that the Koran was God`s word I wouldnt have a problem accepting whatever it said irrespective of whether it conformed to logic and reason. Why are you so anxious to ``explain`` it and be an apologist for its irrationality ?

Ahmadmadani #: ``If indian parents just whip their children so they become respectful of elders we will have no problem like arjun attitude.``

Aaameen, summa Aaameen............

#39 what you are trying to ``quote`` from the book as you claim, is a gross distortion. You state and I quote ``Women get half in inheritance; men can marry four wives--no reasons necessary; womens` testimony is no good in certain cases and so on and so forth``-

Not so, if you`re trying to paraphrase the Quran. Women get half the inheritance only in the case of daughter/son but not in the case of mother/father- in which case it is equal- the daughter/son scenario is based upon justice: the daughter is expected to get a huge chunk from the husband upon marriage but the son is supposed to provide for his wife as a duty- and give a huge chunk of that ``double`` to his wife (a woman) and so on. Men can marry four wives with no reasons or restrictions- really?? where did you get that from? The verse says, please read the entire verse: `` if you cannot do justice to the yatamun nisaa (the orphans among the women)....``

Just because someone doesn`t spend time reading and understanding, and relies on popular folk mythology regarding a religion or a book,does not mean that those who do spend time and effort thinking and understanding it are rationalizing or ``contemporarising`` it(as you say). Anyway, for those who are interested here is a comparative article that evaluates the status of women in Islam and the Quran, it wont take very long to read. http://women.rationalreality.com

Re: # 39 wasif2 Sahib... you have too strong opinion you will never win election. But I liked your consistant thinking.
I personally never express strong opinion about religion . But if i go to any religious shrine follow traditions. I have noted curious tradition in many religion practices. Like christian take cap and keep hand on heart. Signaling thing of heart , not of brain, Islam is means submission so no brains or different way of thinking. Or hindu Kafirs bow their haed to idols.
Its same its faith not intelluctual acceptance. Or Kafir Buddhas people say i surrender to organization, to religion and to buddha.

There is common thread of heart of brain. So we should be careful not to hurt feeling and deep hold reverence for these things. Even it gives great solace to some sad and hurt people. Karl Marx said religion is opium of masses. It may be addiction but it relive some sorrows and mental depression. If some drug like religion makes feel people better we should not object or redicule.

Respectfully submitted ( copied style from Mr. Beharam - acknowledgement)
AM

No Mr Manto, I havent the time for that. However, in the context of ``religion``, I do not admit of the terms ``less`` or ``better`` or ``worse``. When it is ridiculous, it is just ridiculous, nothwithstanding the attempts at ``modernising`` or ``contemporarising`` it through ``reinterpretation``.... this sect or that.

No Mr Manto, I havent the time for that. However, in the context of ``religion``, I do not admit of the terms ``less`` or ``better`` or ``worse``. When it is ridiculous, it is just ridiculous, nothwithstanding the attempts at ``modernising`` or ``contemporarising`` it through ``reinterpretation``.... this sect or that.

Wasif2,

Have you had the opportunity of studying something of the Ismaili Agha Khani doctrine ?

Are you saying that is less of Islam than Sunni Islam?

I think the problem is you, not JJ. He is what he is. An average, slightly educated/wellexposed Pakistani who thought (and stupidly others thought too) that he was ``modern`` or forward looking or some such crap.

99.9 percent of this country is muslim...by accident of birth...and though they dont know shit about what being muslim means, they are very religious too. Even someone who looks like a ``liberal`` (a term that cannot be used to talk about someone who is slightly permissive in religion...but is used in this country as such nevertheless) turns out to be a very religious person when you scratch the surface a bit. Just becuase someone smokes dope or fornicates or plays the guitar or dances or sings doesnt make him non-reiligous or liberal, or tolerant or modern...only makes him a hypocrite.

There is no such thing as a ``liberal`` or ``modern`` or ``forward looking`` Islam. These are apologies for those who want to have their cake and eat it. Islam is what it is and its all there, in that book. And there is nothing complicated about that book. Its a simple text and it says what it says: Women get half in inheritance; men can marry four wives--no reasons necessary; womens` testimony is no good in certain cases and so on and so forth. Go ahead and liberalise it, but you are just fooling yourself. Freesoul (#8) is right, God does say he punishes when he doesnt like what you are up to.

I dont find anything strange about the hogwash that JJ and so many others perpetuate on these half a dozen ridiculous religious channels. I actually find it strange that other ``muslims`` (modern, liberal, forwardlooking LOL) should have a problem with what he is doing. Face it, religion is ridiculous. Anything, that has a ``belief`` (a state of mind) as an essential starting point before you can even start talking about it, is really quite a funny little thing.

Lastly, I know of very very few people who are muslims in faith. Most are muslims culturally only i.e because they were born as such, or because its convenient or becuase they havent really ever bothered to think about it or because they are circumcised or whatever. Because, honestly, if i did believe in God and consequently did believe in heaven and hell...... oh man, I tell you there was no way i was going to do anything in my life that could have the slightest chance of bringing me anywhere near the fires of hell. If you have read your Koran...do you have any idea what kind of punishment its talking about when its talking of hell ??? How could someone believe in hell and still go ahead living like a present day Pakistani muslim ? How ?

Re: # 36 Mr. Hamid...... Thanks for agreeing with me as I am tired of liberals of western methods of teaching. Many indians have attitude exihibts of lack of order and respect to others. Actually its problem here at my house also. Recently ladyship writer complained about about indian cultural invasion. Its not invasion but can consider interaction but one feels otherwise lady had control on children punks.( its like you can say corrouption and worry or say lubrication to do needed work and be happy) If we can not whip and keep troops in order no point in complain against cultural invasion. She could have whipped them and put mind to study. No women will never do that blame father is problem. Its not all rosy here also we need whipping done by parents.
I have daughters so I have to be moderate but its difficult can not be done is experience. When daughter starts coming of age its problem as they do not understand father and language and you are disturbed and afraid of her looks and behaviour. They feel you do not listen to them and understand them. If you ask reason they always say you can not understand. Wives are good at stabbing back and supporting daughters and still expect father to respect command control and communication. It does not work all three Cs are gone. It happened to me. I told my elder daughter as she went to engg college not to start ``nakaras``. I was enraged and went and through all lipsticks etc stuff and told little once see these are not good things and one should be modest even if one is pretty. In this house till I am alive this will be not permitted. I felt am right protecting her interests from dime dozon engineering lafangas from college.
When daughtersahiba returned she became irate and I tried to make her understad philosophy and logic . She sharply told me she will not go to college and I should kill her than this and she went in room and closed. It was so stunning and frightening to me begged wive to go and some how close this. Lipstick came and family became happy and little daughters picked up fast. I lost control for ever.
Moral is whipping is easy for boys but we can not whip daughters but mother can but they will not. We can not solve problems . Mothers have advantage over fathers they can whip sons and daughters and keep order. If mother whips boy people say `` that boy needs wheeping`` but man can not whip daughter.
When I was 14 years old one she buffolow started looking at me and moving, then elder said no problem he unfurled umbrella and buffolow changed mind. That man said boy you keep in mind if buffolow comes umbrella can save you but if women gets angry nothing can save. Bujurg`s had wisdom.

Mr.Arjun has attitude problem and can never be changed , he is lost in space and floating with his cutting axe and paste tube. I wish him good luck.

Any body from our readers have any good or bad experience related to whipping or how it is exercised in good old India to improve children. Mo zia showed guts and whipped some buts and all from Dawn to all newspapers fell in line. Use or loose is correct about whipping , power and money

Good 2006