Songs of Dissonance

I think what Junaid expressed in his views was reflecting what`s stated in the Quran and supported by numerous hadeeths and not some superstitions as suggested by you. I`m impressed with your research about numerous natural disasters in the world but if you recall, muslims believe in Allah`s sovereignty and His control over the universe and therefore believe that whatever happens in the Universe happens for a reason, which is almost always supported by the Quran and hadeeths. I don`t promote believing everything you hear about Islam but I do believe in conducting your own research and educating yourself as much in Islam as we do in other mediums such as science. Thanks.

off topic inquiries can be directed to Asadi@asadi.org

masadi u dont have to answer this, but just out of curiosity I would like to know how old you are.

#110 Einstein knew much more about the universe than to conclude that God is ``natural law``. As a physicist and cosmologist, he knew that at the beginning point of creation, before planck time,(which is 10 to the power of negative 43 seconds) there were no ``natural laws``, the kind that we study today- those ``natural laws`` are not the creator, they were themselves ``created`` as they had an ``origin``. Here is another quotation from Einstein :``I`m not much with people, and I`m not a family man. I want my peace. I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomena in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts the rest are details.`` (Clarck, The Life and Times of Einstein. New York: The World Publishing Co., 1971. ,18,19)

His statement, ``I want to know how God created this world.`` clearly narrates to us that he seperated the world (natural laws etc) from God.

Regarding your question, why God, (according to you) ``tortures little babies with cancer, aids and earth quakes before killing them or worse maiming them for life?`` - when you ask questions it is always a very bad idea to assume what the answer is going to be and then put words in the mouth of the person you are asking a question from- bad, bad idea. That said, what evidence do you have that God does those things? Looking at cancer rates, scientifically we find, like in the case of Iraq (and Vietnam), that cancer rates went up 700% due to depleted uranium used by the US in the first gulf war (as it did due to agent orange and other defoliants used by the US in Vietnam). What about earthquakes, let`s see Pakistan spends billions on arms and armament, making US corporations rich while it wont invest a small percent of that constructing decent housing for the poor- and as we know buildings and not earthquakes kill people. AIDS, how does it spread and why are poor communities more vulnerable than rich ones and why is this cycle not broken in Africa by providing low cost medicines to those who suffer from its effects?

Now, God has entrusted this earth for a limited time to humanity, humankind, the elite among them, breaches that trust, ruins and harms the earth and fellow humans as a result and then BLAMES it on God- NOT FAIR!! After that brief period of entrustment is over, and judgment comes, after that, if babies are still dying of cancer, and people are still getting killed by earthquakes then you can blame God, but not before.

#108, I have only come across Iqbal`s work on Islam, through excerpts in other books, I have to study it in the original before I can form any opinion on it.

#112 all the nice thoughts in that song and hopes have been shattered for all developing countries of the world thanks to the inhumane neo-colonial system dominated by the US elite. We need to work together to reclaim all that from those who are destroying humanity and the earth for short term profits.

Hindvi

That`s an amazing song. It has a very special appeal - it was one of our school prayers.

We would sing it in a chorus, all three or four hundred of us. One would have to have been there in our midst to truly feel the magnificence of the song`s words and the impact of those words on our minds.

Thanks for taking me back many years, to a beautiful time... :)

Kaalchakra listen to this outstanding song by Iqbal, its available on the net, it sounds best when young children sing it, since it was meant as prayer for them:

lab pey aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
zindagi shamma ki surat ho Khudaya meri

ho mere dam se yuuN hi mere watan ki zeenat
jis tarah phool se hoti hai chaman ki zeenat

zindagi ho meri parwaane ki surat ya rab
ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko mohabbat ya rab

ho meraa kaam Garibon ki himayat karna
dardmandon se zaifon se mohobbat karna

mere allah burai se bachaana mujhko
nek jo raah ho us raah pe chalana mujhko

lab pey aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
zindagi shamma ki surat ho Khudaya meri

sayeen

Further to Hindvi`s post, it would be useful to see what practical, real-life methodology Iqbal was suggesting for the reconstruction of religious thought in Islam.

Einstien Sayin

Do you what Einstein meant by God? forget allama, have u read Spinoza? Einstein claimed to be Spinozan in his thoughts, i.e. he called the physical laws(equations) of this universe ``God``, not a personal Judeo-christian anthropomorphic all powerful, determiner of individual destinies - responsive to prayers and appreciative of sycophancy vigilantee. Because of this most religous christians who knew his beliefs severely castigated him.

Masadi since u have taken up the brief for Allah Mian:

tell me why does this god of yours torture little babies with cancer, aids and earth quakes before killing them or worse maiming them for life? he sems a million degrees worse to me than the guards at Guant.

And please respect this forum and give an answer other than ``he is really torturing their parents, and the children dont feel any pain``, or the standard he has reserved a nice place for them in the next world, where he will make up with the babies and their parents for the pain in this world.

Re: # 108

Masadi sahib:
A a reposne to the ``insult to intelligence`` woven by #107, couldnt have materlized better.

Kistiakowsky`s quote: The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine [sic] ``indeed`` re-instates Dr. Einstein`s ( representing perhaps the pinnacle of scientific human intellect to-date) quest to rationalize scientific discovery with religion/God in his later years.

On a second note, and perhaps in response to the ``non-ijtahadis`` ( not to confuse with `jahadis`: for the indians) and the self-praclaimed ``agnostics`` of the forum, what would you say about Dr. Iqbal`s ``The Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam``. (assuming you`d have read it)

It surprises me, how little commentary there exists on this text, and how eludes a common Pakistani` the very Islamic outlook of the man who envisioned the land.

#107, compare the literary nonsense reflected in the verse you have reproduced, to this quote by an MIT physicist:

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): ``The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.`` or this one by the well know astrophysicist Fred Hoyle:

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): ``A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.``

complete article at http://god.rationalreality.com

Khuda jitna shikast hota hai, uska parcham utnaa hi buland hota jaataa hai

Re: # 101 to 104 Thanks.
Fortunately my daughters did well and have their families.

104 Your observations are right.
Most of time men are more attached to their mothers and daughters to fathers is my experience. It may be getting reinforced in childhood as when their mother can not agree they approach father and many times met their unreasonable demands. Also mothers put too much attention in details while father does not and they begin to feel father as reasonable.Withtime relationship changes for better. Most daughters tell things to father what is going in their life and ask for opinion. Daughter feel fathers are not very judgemental and can keep calm and keep things with them.You do not want to spend time with your sons home as director of that house is woman not related to you and there is tension in air how much son gives attention can create problem. I will not feel bad to be taken care by daughter as she is related to me and her nurturing is same as your mother so there no shame to take help. She is mother to you and its as natural as your mother caring for you, its natural. That may be the reason. With my daughter I will insider with daughter in law I am outsider.

Re: # 101,102,103,104 Thanks. Fortunately my daughters did well got married and settled.
Yes daughters take care of parents and specially father. The realtionship changes with time if their husbands are reasonable. They always talk little to their mother but they get close and talk with father. May be I listen to all patienly and attentively. I have observed I was attached to my mother and not father not at all. There is something daughters like father than mother as time goes as some times they can still complain to me as was when they were in teens and some times things they dare not ask mother. I recall many times my daughters tell me not mention to their mother and tell me things. I think we have more attachment to them and they know father is still adores them as when they were babies ( may be mothers are more practical) and they have more confidence in father than mother.
104 has put something I can not explain but suggest there is all through life a romantic attachment of father and daughter ( as father and daughter) and when you become old she becomes like mother helping you again living as your second childhood and your mother as good women have nurtureing nature.

``girls have proven to take far better care of their parents. `` Though I dont have kids, having seen cases around me that has been my experience too, I wonder why though.

madani

girls have proven to take far better care of their parents. so its ok to water the garden. the problem is there if they get married into a joint-family situation, with little decision freedoms. so make sure that they dont marry a person who lives and or is dependent on his family.

Ahmed Madani,

1. First, do not worry about your english skills. You are allright.

2. Atleast, it appears, that you are much more educated (not just literate) than
the average anglicized uneducated pakistanis we see on chowk (tahmed, godot, ylh etc).

3. Stop trying to please people (except maybe your immediate family
- wife, kids, parents etc). You dont have to apologize to chowk-interactors at all
unless you made some personal accusation that was wrong.

4. Do not post private/family information on the web.
Considering the pathetic country you unfortunately live in and that you have kids
to be married, one can understand your concern for their safety and your trying
to protect them. You have more of an interest in your daughters well being than
the morons who are living in relatively free and safe environments.

Dear Madani saheb,

I know.......we are living in the depressing times..............I have shunned reading religious books with their details of gore, conspiracies and divine justices........they depress me even more with the hindus all around me......so I have stopped everything...............I read milan kundera, sartre and other existentialists.......the bring greater sukoon than any of the mullahs farting around.............I know Pakistan can be depressing because the adab of ghalib and faiz was conciously replaced by mullahs with PAk Studies........it is depressing to see that we do not have any left parties in Pakistan.............it is depressing to see no classical music which has been overtaken by vulgar quawallis and ghazals........

.it is indeed wrong for anyone to call you as a pervert...............the best way to get out of depression is to vent yourself of your anxieties.........................do go out for walks in the morning ...............atleast two hours...................and listen to some Dhrupad ...............you can download some dhrupad of Ustad Nasir Aminuddin Dagar from the net.......I listen to them regularly..............and get transported to the 8 th heavans without any Buraq............

with regards,

Ballu Khan Warasi.

Re: # 94 Dear Ballukhan.....I are reasonable.
The american justice will take care of OBL and company.
It is not hard punishments that ditter criminals to get in wrong way with USA govt. It is finality of justice which scares the people like OSB. American and Israel govt has well deserved reputation for having long memory. I have heard still USA govt deports people who were doing criminal activities in 1939s. The commitments made by USA govt are not political but more institutional commitments to bring justice to criminal, they may use illeagal ways to catch them but at trial ,the trials are fair and open and justices are not ordered to follow. I have commented many times to have no army take overs we need American justices appointed on Supreme courts. There are no moral corougeous justices. Army uses them as rubber stamps.

My problem with Mr. Arjun he only finds faults and problems , hope he can give some good news also. He is intelligent and resourceful person and have nothing to say negative about him.

Tell me honestly what I have written to be termed as a PERVERT. I feel bad around age of 60 some body tells me I am pervert. I have lead very simple truthful life raised my daughters , good husband, good supervisor, good friend , am baffled by such thing. I am extremely intelligent person people who even talked once will tell me. I have taught my daughter MSc grade mathematics, taught elder daughter civil engg, taught middle daughter mechanical engg. I use to study their books and teach them and I have two years of college. When I was working even at high level people under me will come and ask what they should do about their personal problems. They use to come ask sir you have time ? I always use to say I am very busy but only busy person has time. Sit down see what can be done. I never let one word pass beyond my ear. Women will come and ask me what dress they look good in for some usa boy is coming regarding martimony. I will tell her if complexion is dark, or whaet what will go better. I even use to tell how they should light house and some times visit place and tell some changing thing so girl will appear at best. This much was confidence of people for my good taste, discreteness.
Recently ( 4 years) have been suffering by ailments and depression. This use to give me good window to look out as I rarely venture out due to problems of anxity.
I terribly feel sad to have offended some person from indian city. Inadverdently I may have said something offensive ? I do not know. I feel saddened.

I wonder people who are well educated and well versed in wordly things and have benefit of seen differt parts of world feel same may ? I hope to correct myself if some body can tell me my mistakes. I hope people like DMitter, Hamid, Romair, Jay, mantos,Mr. Arjun and all other can tell me for I want to correct and avoid mistakes.

wish good 2006 for all.

Re: # 90


This is simply classic:

``He has opinion so what is problem .``

.............if I may add, with due apology to Mr. Madani, the problem is that so many of us do not have our OWN opinion (i.e. an opinion not boot-strapped to ALL opinions of some other person or a small set of persons).

GT.

Re: # 91

Today is a good day for me. My visit to chowk was not a waste. Thank you Mr. Madani. Someday, you should reveal a bit more about yourself......I know I have not revealed myself either......but then I am not a genius.

Each of the following jewels from Madani (except perhaps 9 and 10) express more than what many writers here in chowk have tried to express.

Jewels from Madani (91):

1. ``If you get chance once I wrote a letter to my family of my trip to India. ( would like to get copy of that and see what I felt at that time, is there way to locate)``

2. ``When I study the calculus of indian democracy can say such complex drama was never played and will never be played in world history ( with time many complexities will be factored out, its unbeatean paths will become well travelled and it will not be as complex or as intrigueing say after 50 years).``

3. ``12 Indian companies are traded in US exchanges and some with very high P/E ratios. I have no jalousy or envy in such matters.``

4. ``Pakistan and muslim societies very much like the sexual content of Indian or western societies and we desire same in our lives but we do not want in our society.``

5. ``( I have not visited real foreign country like usa, uk,canada, Germany- real white countries)``

6. ``All males like sexual content in society and we are afraid and muslims men specially are so terrified to such extent that we are paranoid , want to supress that.``

7. ``I have met many pakistanies who went and lived in Holy Cities and holy nations but they do not want to live there as they they say what is life for foreigner in such dry faceless societies.``

8. `` Due to lack of expression of these things a normal sublimatiom the men and women undergoes with passage of time is nonexistant in more repressed societies. I agree in sense I and many others live in muddied pond ,or in wells (as you said)as frogs and we have no easy way to come out of it.``

9. ``That picture is Bhangara on motorcycles to welcome James Bond 007 ?``

10 ``with best wishes for happy 2006.``

GT.

#284, you point isn`t clear logically speaking, and by this I mean no offense to you- It does not make much sense that the creator provided for the ``lower`` needs, like food, environment etc, for his creation- which is an emprical fact by the way- and forgot to or didnt care to provide for the ``higher`` need of one of his created species- a mind that asks questions and needs answers- that my friend is the position of revelation viz a viz the creator.

Re: # 90
Madani Sahib,
Many thanks for your kind advice and words of support, I will try to appreciate my garden and hope its not attacked by the scourge of this earth.

Sincerely
Arif

Re: # 94

does it matter if you tolerate the mullahs in your backyards?

Yes......the silent conspirators are all around us...........

Re: # 91

Madani saheb...............OBL is still around alive and kicking.......and shopping around for dirty bombs....and we have the great intellectuals around us providing their implicit support to whatever nonsense they spout on al-jazeera.......................and we all praise the almighty for letting OBL strike terror in the hearts of the un believer........................to think that the fascist only use terror to strike terror in un believers would be to display an IQ of a donkey.............madani saheb you would be next on the list...............how can you be an imbecile to ignore what is going on in Bangladesh where the ISI inspired Islamists are running their mafia to take control of that country?............if asking you to wake up is being a prophet of doom...so be it........because doom is already foretold by your mullahs..............

``That picture is Bhangara on motorcycles to welcome James Bond 007 ?`` Madani saab that was hilarious.

# 91
Pakistan and muslim societies very much like the sexual content of Indian or western societies and we desire same in our lives but we do not want in our society
What a pervert you are.

Re: # 77

Ms Sandhu... I really enjoyed the picture. Hope one day we can have such things wide spread in feudal areas of my country. I am quite old fashioned but move with time or dragged by time, I moan but move with. I got message when my daughter told me what she thinks , and acquiesced , gave my consent quitely without protest but without enthusiasm. I have travelled to India few times for work related to travel, lodging and entertainment related possibilities. If you get chance once I wrote a letter to my family of my trip to India. ( would like to get copy of that and see what I felt at that time, is there way to locate) I have deep empathy for Indian democracy and largest , complex drama , with thousand subplots . When I study the calculus of indian democracy can say such complex drama was never played and will never be played in world history ( with time many complexities will be factored out, its unbeatean paths will become well travelled and it will not be as complex or as intrigueing say after 50 years). With only about 3.5% of land mass and 16% world population its not easy by any standard. Still people survive and flourish with culture and reasonable life standard. The Indian companies are getting little freedom and they are showing class at world level, 12 Indian companies are traded in US exchanges and some with very high P/E ratios. I have no jalousy or envy in such matters.

Pakistan and muslim societies very much like the sexual content of Indian or western societies and we desire same in our lives but we do not want in our society. When we travel to India or west( I have not visited real foreign country like usa, uk,canada, Germany- real white countries) we are delighted streets full of women and women going with good dresses, satisfacion and happiness nochalantly and nobody taking notice of them. Women not afraid to travel in big cities and need no protection and general decency of males compared to say city like karachi in busses. All males like sexual content in society and we are afraid and muslims men specially are so terrified to such extent that we are paranoid , want to supress that. I have met many pakistanies who went and lived in Holy Cities and holy nations but they do not want to live there as they they say what is life for foreigner in such dry faceless societies. Due to lack of expression of these things a normal sublimatiom the men and women undergoes with passage of time is nonexistant in more repressed societies. I agree in sense I and many others live in muddied pond ,or in wells (as you said)as frogs and we have no easy way to come out of it.

I just does not like attitude of Mr.Arjun as he always sees negative and is messenger of doom.

That picture is Bhangara on motorcycles to welcome James Bond 007 ?

with best wishes for happy 2006.

Re: # 83

JJ is fine. He has opinion so what is problem . Some people feel still moon landing was fake. It does not matter ?

You take good care of your daughter. I always think its more responsibility than boys as we care more for them. Its kind of watering the neighbors garden as they just go away to have their family. We need to do good job and stand by and be ready to help. Like in garden we can take out weeds it would have been nice we can take out and whip lafanga boys , but lufangas are too many.

Do not get distressed as your daughter may say you can not understand her and you are kind of backward retard. They do not mean it really. Its really hard as both side do not understand each others language. Fortunately time goes and again we start understanding each other. They start doing ``nakhara``, lipstick,looking in mirror all times,getting too many clothes, combing hair excessively it is sign of time and take it in stride. Nothing much can be done , just tighten belt and ready for rough ride. Do stand by but please donnt stand in way it will not be appreciated.

It worry time for fathers but when you retrospect at later years you can enjoy mentally the metamorphism of larve in Butterfly ready to fly like eagle without reference in sky, free at last and ready to rise. Just like many books epilogues are far better all daughter ( most cases) appear to have done fine when you look back.

Good luck.


Sincerely
Ahmed Madani

I`ll get back to you ... or have Rozaiba, a fellow Ismaili, get back to you.

#76, you got the ``financial transaction`` claim from the site (http://women.rationalreality.com) I told you about and then dishonestly presented it in a half-baked fashion without the answer given on the site, how do I know that, well when the testimony claim is presented most have no clue that it is limited to ``financial transactions`` and then you repeat the slight error in that article because it is not about testimony but about bearing witness to a written document involving DEBTS. Regardless, the FACT is that in certain cases women`s testimony holds greater weight than a man`s according to the Quran, which disproves the allegation that the Quran considers women inferior because in certain instances it wants two women to witness instead of one- which has good reasons in that case by the way. So you cannot generalize based on testimony laws that one is greater than the other- not possible because in some cases the Quran gives GREATER weight to the testimony of women.

#74 most speakers of English in the world understand Quran as Koran that is my reason for spelling it such- the purpose being that the book I am talking about is easily identified- in this regard Koran is a much more expedient rendition than Qur`an- which may confuse many readers.

MantoLives:
i am not making any point here. i couldnt find the info on the web about the divine status of Ali and Allah in Ismaili faith. And since, you suggested somewhere here about reading up on Ismaili faith, i am assuming you would know about it. So could you elaborate on Ali?


Thanks.

PS: or for that matter anyone who knows about it.

Re: # 85

It is time Dr Farrukh Saleem said that unambigously that Diagnosis 2 is the correct diagnosis than clubbing the two together and leaving the readers to decide................his silence on the issue makes him appear to be a fence sitter.......................

#84 by ballukhan

[...............it is these `educated` persons like JJ and Dr Farrukh Saleem who embolden the Islamist even more]

Ballu Bhai,

I think you got it all wrong. You are grossly mistaken about Dr. Farrukh Saleem. For years, he has been advocating modern education for Pakis as the only solution to Pakistan`s ills. I have read many of his articles on The Friday Times, and he comes across as a real modernist, not a turncoat ;-) like Jamshed Junaid and Saeed Anwar.

Note the last paragraph:

``Diagnosis 2: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because we have refused to change with time.

Keep pace with time -- al Quran``

This is what happens when moderate `educated` muslims submit themselves to the Islamist propaganda. They prescribe faster backward movement to the glorious past.............i.e. more Islamization...............it is these `educated` persons like JJ and Dr Farrukh Saleem who embolden the Islamist even more:-

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2005-daily/08-11-2005/oped/o6.htm

`` Muslims of the world are among the poorest of the poor.

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK, Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as `scientists`, and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million).

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.

Consider, for instance, that Muslims constitute 22 percent of world population with a 1 percent share of Nobel Prizes. Jews constitute 0.23 percent of world population with a 22 percent share of Nobel Prizes.

What really went wrong? Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak. What went wrong? Arriving at the right diagnosis is extremely critical because the prescription depends on it. Consider this:

Diagnosis 1: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because they have `abandoned the divine heritage of Islam`.
Prescription: We must return to our real or imagined past.

Diagnosis 2: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because we have refused to change with time.

Keep pace with time -- al Quran``

Re: # 72
Madani Sahib
After reading your replies I have completly lost trail of the subject matter. BRAVO!!! Absoluetly brilliant. If some people do not get the gist of your writings, then they surely are at a loss.

My first, 17year old daughter has started to impress her viewpoint causing me much consternations. Can you advise course of action cause like u I too feel threatened by her independence.

JJ made his name and fame being a pop singer which he now considers to be un-Islamic yet has no qualms in useing that same fame to propagate his born again Islam. Making others feel good about themselves through music was JJ best possible contribution to this world, his latest monologue will only endear him to his coterie of Tablighees/fundos searching for the ultimate conspiracy theories. I for one would support JJ need to have his bouts of verbal diorrehea.

This is what the charlatan Mr. Masadi states:


``THE WATERY ORIGIN OF LIFE


The Koran mentions that all life ``originated`` from water (Koran 21:30)and that man himself is ``created`` of water and so are all the animals on earth (Koran 25:54, and 24:45).

These statements to an Arab would have sounded atrocious in that day and age. Even today such statements in the Koran might cause you to wonder. The fact that all life originated in water is well established by the scientific community, today. We have evidence to support the fact that the first living beings were cyanobacteria also called bluegreen algae, and they existed in water. The fact that human beings and animals are created of water is also well established since cytoplasm the basic component of ``life`` in any animal cell is over 80% water.``



The fact remains that this view was probably a modification of the well know thesis propounded by Thales of Miletus (Born: about 624 BC Died: about 547 BC in Miletus, Asia Minor ,now Turkey) `all things are water`..................so the original claim for pre-emption should go to Thales............

Anyway, this is a patently false thesis because `life` is characterized by the DNA sequence............and the helical DNA sequence was not even understood before the 20th century.....no religious text could have pre-empted the DNA sequence........it only comes from religious loonies who make this claim for propaganda of their form of religious cult..........

Why does an Islamist insist upon telling everyone that Islam has pre-empted all the important scientific theories?

Simple, Islamist wants to spread the propaganda that world does not need scientists because everything is already revealed..............so this propaganda to `prove` that all the important and established theories of sciences are already pre-empted in Islam............it would only lesd to more muslims getting weaned to Islamist ideology. I am sure the chowk must have realized that in their midst only how Mr. Naqshabandi has been reading the Islamist stuff so much that he had almost decided to throw away his phd thesis in chemistry ...............

Whom does the propoganda target?

It is targetted at moderate muslims who would unwittingly become party to the fascistic intents of these Islamists and would provide intellectual and moral support. It is not targetted for publication in acclaimed forums of science or even philosophy of science. It is a propoganda ploy to obtain support from various moderate muslims and to keep the Islamists afloat on their violent course towards fascistic submission of all the other educated and moderate muslims as well as non-muslims alike.

Re: # 1

Well said, codification of morals breads idol worship where we deify the rituals and cease to look at reason. And yes, it can be inspired from any source. Indeed, JJs are in every religion, and every country.

Aisha Sarwari

The pictures are of a carvinal in Chandigarh on 27/11/05

Re: # 74

I am sure Mr Masadi would like to comment on this, his article is titled

``KORAN & KARL POPPER`S CRITICAL RATIONALISM``

here is the link to his article

http://rationalreality.50webs.com/sci.htm

Ahmedmadani is a fake. he deliberately writes poor english to come across as an unlearned person, which he is not. Some os his post are also ludicrous, like somewhere he had written that Indians cant afford servants etc. Thousands of Nepalese, besides Indians, work as cooks and dosmetics helps in India. Even school teachers can afford cooks. With the pittance that is paid to servants in India and ak, keeping a servants is no big deal. His attitude towards his daughters [ if what he writes is really true] is regressive. Ahmedmadani dont be a frog living in a well. Your worldview is limited. Meanwhile I am posting you these pictures of girls in India so that you change your attitude to your daughters.

#58

Masadi….That women have half a man’s testimony (and zero if not accompanied by a man’s testimony) in financial transactions is common knowledge.It is also contained in Article 17 of the Qanun e Shahadat of Pakistan. So masadi, I did not have to, and did not in fact go to the link you pasted. Indeed, you give yourself too much credit if you think I would go to a silly link suggested by a self opinionated twerp like you. Your post tells me is that you are a presumptuous twit. It also tells me that whether or not I went to that link and am being dishonest or not, you definitely are a dishonest guy whose own mind definitely works in these cryptic ways and therefore thinks nothing of accusing others of such things. Exemplary muslim behaviour...is it ? Btw..is that how the criminal justice system works in Islam too ??? By accusing people on whims ?

However, your nonsense and personal attacks on me aside, the fact remains

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for all on chowk to see

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that you NEVER answer the real questions. By now there are about half a dozen that you should have answered. But no. You will do anything but answer the question. Why ????

Raw dust...

The point I was making was in respect to theological beliefs but generality...

Out of discussion:

I don`t know where it is heading but the article is really cool and valid up mark.

Want to insert through this board that those people who say Koran instead of Quran no matter how menaingful or less they debate about it don`t show the due privilege to the book so much respectable to muslims. And if they are muslims then this doesn`t make them liberal by twisting urdu or arabic language and showing false weak familiarity with language.

If its by mistake then people should set straight their qibla.

Cheers

Re: # 277

Brfore I can preempt more charlatan science getting propounded on the site by the Islamists read this :

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, ``Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?`` I replied, ``Allah and His Apostle know better.`` He said, ``It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ``And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.``

I am sure every body can understand that it is not a scientific theory but a view of the world utilizing common everyday metaphors ......................but the literalist idiots would like to see a scientific theory in it...............

Re: # 47 Mr. Ranjeet.....Please bear with me for my mental deliquiencies.
I believe in abstinence from any kind of alcohol and Zina sex or more than one wife. I have seen many religious advocates talking about abstinence a great deal, but it is well-known they would have a drink now and then on pretex of cold in KARACHI`S humid weather.
I was saddened by your diatribe about my mental stability and abilities. But I found your words didactic and eye opening.
I am a diffident person and lack expressive language handicaps makes me garrulous. Still you have been kind and munificient in making remarks.
I scoffed at your observations but eventually was forced to accept as they were powerful as they were true. I now acquiesce with your critical remarks. I tried to assimilate with learned people as letter write but you exposed. It made me little delirious due to that and resulted in diminution of my mental capacities. You have great disdain for me but know you are magnanimous person. I have malignant thought disorder and my minds meanders aimlessly. I am distraught that can not alleviate your feeling about me. My mental capacities are maimed, nonmeticulus, murky , full of narcissim and squabbling. I am just biblophile and my mental capacities ebb and logic is elusive. I am nonchalant and now feel if had shown solicitude while reading comments my brain would have been working. This exercise is to assuage the grief I did to readers and aware only my obnoxious behaviour engendered hostilities. It is enigma why Mr.Romair or Mr.Hamid have morbid interest in reading my comments. I have nostalgia of time when was not on drugs/(doctor ordered). I am told with my 2 cats,dog and snake my house is real menagerie. I am trying to obliterate metal depression. Presently reading poems from Chowk poets has developed mental atrophy and aversion to good poems.The poem in chowk are so esoteric that few people besides relatives of poet could understand it. You have accused me of equivocating on every major issues, not true never comment about poems and eulogies. I regret my comments have been obtrusive. Wheeping punks, I thought being help suggestion, but you thought I was officious. This was overt rude behaviour and i regret it. It behooved me to improve by your analysis. your suggestions are exemplary and if I follow may allow me opulent lifestyle, for that ,need to sequester all distractions and work hard. I am mending my writing ways but its hard.

You do not take comments form people seriously. I just make comments to impress myself and my wife and my cats, dag and snake. Please do not take seriously what I write.

Only people who are serious are Mr.and Mrs manto and Seculars and all others are harams and writing to please themselves without any social utility. I am thinking of better listening to indian classical music than write comments as it is creating heat and no light.

Again my mind is getting delirious. So parting shot. Recently Mantos and some indian man writing about secularism , religion, and those stuff.
So comments of mine.

In this world there are two types of people. First are NORMALpeople, follow religion as good as possible if not possible they do not and do not worry about religion at all and all OTHERS ARE SECULARS.
SECULAR PEOPLE ARE LAFANGAS , AND KEEP AWAY .

Re: # 50

I would definitely request my friends Gill, tahmad and hamidm to go through this charlatan`s article ......

Re: # 55

Charlatans like yourself, Mr Masad, have existed for too long in this world......it is time they were shown their place.....I read your article called ``KORAN & KARL POPPER`S CRITICAL RATIONALISM`` and I doubt you have read Karl Popper before you started talking about his critical rationalism.........the topic on scientific theories in Quran and how it connects to KArl Popper is a material fit for a phd thesis.......but I have better things to do than to waste time on charlatan thesis which nobody in the academic world would even waste a glance....................this may serve as a good source of funding from saudi fundoos........sorry what a waste of precious human intellect!!!

Ahmedmadani sahib is a character all his own. It may take longer to get to know him, but the effort can be well worth it.

i think if someone can memorize an arcane book in a foreign language, medicine would be a piece of cake...at least with memorization of all the latin based terms.

Re: # 65

LAHORE: A Christian student has filed a constitutional writ petition to the Lahore High Court (LHC) for instant action, under Section 151 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC), against the policy of awarding 20 additional marks to a Muslim hafiz-e-Quran (who has learnt the Quran by heart) candidate for admission in the MBBS and others, saying that it was discrimination against minority students and a violation of fundamental rights granted by the Constitution of Pakistan.


ROFL.. :-))

Now someone would jump in and say how ``rationally`` the advances in the ``medical field`` can be attributed to the ``document`` because it is said that you can even goto China to obtain knowledge..

LOL..

MantoLives:
terms easily understandable to the common

Could you please do me naacheez a favor and explain the basic tenets regarding Ali being Asaas or something like that in Ismailiya faith. What exactly is Ali`s equation with respect to Allah? and how do exactly Ismailis back it up ?

Thanks.

Mrs Manto: Pakiland is a theocracy...get over it..

in a theocracy, things like this are common..

Christian student files petition against 20 marks for Hafiz-e-Quran students

* Asks LHC to quash policy or make parallel policy for minority students

By Ali Waqar

LAHORE: A Christian student has filed a constitutional writ petition to the Lahore High Court (LHC) for instant action, under Section 151 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC), against the policy of awarding 20 additional marks to a Muslim hafiz-e-Quran (who has learnt the Quran by heart) candidate for admission in the MBBS and others, saying that it was discrimination against minority students and a violation of fundamental rights granted by the Constitution of Pakistan.

The petition, which is the first of its kind, has demanded the LHC either abolish the policy or make a parallel policy of awarding 20 additional marks to minority students for MBBS admission on the basis of their religious knowledge/study.

Qandeel, a Christian and daughter of Benjamin Robert Sultan, filed the petition through her counsel Rana Aamir Iftikhar and Waseem Ahmed Shahzad against the King Edward Medical College principal, who is also the Admissions Board chairman, and the Punjab Health Department. She has also asked the LHC to grant her a stay and restrain the Admissions Board and Punjab government from commencing MBBS 2005-06 academic session classes in medical colleges of Punjab till the final disposal of the petition because the selection of students for admission in medical colleges had been made on basis of discrimination and ignoring the rights of the petitioner (minority representative).

mohar mian,

``By the way, Mr Madani - the right word is ``threw``, not ``through``..... You don`t seem to know much of English language - that is ok ``..............

..... of course it is okay !...... you obviously don`t know mr. madani ..........i wouldn`t be surprised at all if the man has a phd in english literature - his deliberate and studied caricature of the english language is in a class by itself ......... and his prophetic messages are delphian ..... what is lacking on your part is comprehension and a sense of humor - a terrible double affliction for which there is no known cure ...........

mohar11 # 61 and ranjit # 47,

I think you got ahmedmadani wrong. The lack of grammar, you have been complaining about, is actually his distinctive interacting style. You will find very few people whose posts are more entertaining than his`.. I would follow GT`s suggestion and look into his old posts..

I consider hamidm as the funniest interactor on this site and now we have him on record saying ahmedmadai is his favourite.. so there is surely something in him,


Avkrishna

Re: # 61

Do not judge ahmedmadani so quickly......Take your time, read between the lines......He is extremely intelligent. Dont believe me? Go through some of his earlier posts (start from say a year back).

GT.

Re: # 38 madani
[... I was enraged and went and through all lipsticks etc stuff ....]

Here we have a raving jack-a$$ who runs around breaking little girls` lipsticks .... and look at paki brigrade here - they are cheer-leading him .... Hamidm calls him his ``favorite interactor`` ... Romair is having an org@sm .... Soon closet-mullah would be here to join the love-fest.....

No wonder you pakis are so pathetic....

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By the way, Mr Madani - the right word is ``threw``, not ``through``..... You don`t seem to know much of English language - that is ok - but you don`t seem to know much of anything else either..... even your own wives(sic) and daughter don`t listen to your bullsh!t - what does that tell you?.... So get a clue, you fool.....

Masadi Sahib

Catchy is the nickname of another Arab teenager (pre-teens may prefer to stay far away from Chowk) who graced the lands of Pakistan, and lived among the natives of that region for a while. Now he shines the light of rational and scientific Islam in the fetid world of Chowk`s unplugged section.

Apologies for the confusion.

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Since we all have to live together, one hopes that the dozen or more proponents of rational/scientific Islam, who pop up on Chowk with great conviction and impressive religiosity during any week of the year would find arguments genuine and compelling enough to convince (a substantial majority of) others in their own group.

GROUND REALITIES

Tora Bora & the Earthquake