Children of Guest Workers

Very good analysis. I have more or less same impression after living in Germany for about 3 years.

A little note:

There is a yahoo group of around 500 Pakistanis who are all living in Germany. Most of the members are students but there are also those who are working here or settled here.If you want to become a member ,just send an email to

pakistanischegemeinde-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

very interesting and topical. people such as the ones mentioned in this article have my sympathy. i actually discussed this topic on another article not connected to the issue. i am re-posting it here cause its more relevant.

thanks to muslims once more, politics in europe is getting rather interesting. i predict a lurch to the right in europe now that wwii is starting to recede from memory and europe once again has to deal with the visable presence of a minority group whose belief systems clash directly with dominant europeans ethos. before wwii, christian europe had problems dealing with jewish europeans. now, secular europeans are having problems dealing with muslim europeans. signs are already visable that post-wwii european order, instituted in part to restrict the destructive nationalistic instincts of europeans, is starting to crumble. european voters clearly dont want a further deepening of e.u. also some mainstream left wing european parties such as labor party in u.k. are moving to the right. at the same time, right wing politicans are saying things about a minority group which would be unthinkable twenty years back. and needless to say, a significant level of european muslims are not going to take interference in their affairs lying down.

I had a Polish colleague who had lived in germany for some time. He said that germans don`t consider turks (whether first generation or second generation) as german citizen. They feel that the ``guest workres`` came to germany for work and should go back after the work is done. Infact they were ready to give them money so that they could go back to turkey.

Unrestrained multiculturalism does not work. It is a bad dream, sold either by those who do not know what multiculturalism is, or by those who have a deathwish.

Netizen:

you are right about many germans not considering turks as german citizens. The turks also identify themselves as Turks first and German second...if at all!

but i don,t think its true that the germans are ready to pay money to turks specifically to leave....they may receive some kind of a gratuity upon leaving a job, if they hold a job....like any other employee who leaves a job.....

most turks would leave but they just can`t anymore. PLus many many turks have worked way too hard to set themselves up here....and when they leave, their legal status is such that they can,t get old age benefits, pensions etc. this is problematic since they have worked hard their whole lives and paid high taxes and if in their age old they can,t reap the fruits then what is the point ?

nice article..
ive been living in germany since almost last 3 years, first came as student and now working here, yes this is true that in every society the aliens face their share of problems, but in general i believe the foriegners are well recieved in germany if you compare that with uk, yes true the laws are more strict when it comes to citizenship etc, but at the same if you go in the depth of the problem you will find that 90% of these turks are not educated enough to find a decent job, most of them have hardly completed arbitur (grade 12), added to that they dont really want to blend into the society, they feel proud in stating that they are first turks and then anything else...i feel that the fault lies mostly on their part then the german government itself...and for sure this is going to be more tough as merkel is set to become the chancellor...

Let me first say a few words about Muslim minority in Germany (second generation Turks in particular) will put any swine porky potatoe faced German to shame in terms of adapting to Deutsche culture. I visit Germany at least 3-4 times a year, and the Turks there are more Germans than your uncle Hitler. This whole notion of “assimilation” is a fuking hogwash. It is an ass sore kinda problem and it is not going to go away any time soon. Germans are genetically a racist people. More so than Frogs and Brits. Europeans in general are racist and anti Muslim.

Now to the author of this essay.

#1. your English is not bad for someone who lives in Germany. Es ist gut.

#2. Very valid points you have made in this essay. Yes, Germans are fuked up. The second generation immigrant children face a lot of hardship… not being fully accepted by the country they were born in, and they also feel foreign to the place of their ancestors.

The above two points are very true. Here’re some suggestions:

# 1. Get the hell out of Nazi Germany and come to the US.
# 2. Stay there and get involved in the political process. (I know it is easier said than done).
# 3. Before criticizing German society, criticize your own people and tell them where they failed to give proper respect to the country they came to work and settled in.

rizwan
below are the statistics about muslims in UK do have any similar statistics about turks in germany.


Muslim Britain

The statistics

Monday June 17, 2002
Faith
• Certified mosques: 584 (1999)
• Practising Muslims: 760,000 (estimated), most of whom observe the Sunni tradition
• 20,000 British Muslims travel to Mecca for Hajj annually
Industry and labour
• Bangladeshis and Pakistanis are two and a half times more likely to be unemployed than the white population and three times more likely to be on low pay
• Average earnings among Muslim men are 68% that of non-Muslim men
• Three-quarters of Bangladeshi and Pakistani children live in households earning less than half the average income
• 25% of Pakistani men are self-employed compared with 11% of white men
• 65% of Bangladeshis are semi-skilled manual workers compared with 23% among other ethnic minorities and 15% among white Britons
• 54% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi homes receive income support, three times other households

Welfare
• 28% of older Pakistani and Bangladeshi people live in homes without central heating
• 38% live in overcrowded homes. They are three times as likely not to have a phone at home than non-Muslims
• Number of Muslims in prison: 4,298, 7% of the male population and 3% of female
Health
• Perinatal mortality rate among Pakistani mothers is 16%, twice the UK average
• 18% of Pakistanis are diagnosed with chest pains or heart disease, compared with 14% of Sikhs, and 8% of Hindus
• 20% of Muslims report a long-standing illness, compared with 16% for Hindus and Sikhs
Education
• There are four Muslim schools in the state sector, though many more private schools
• The percentage of Pakistani and Bangladeshi girls taking A levels in 1998 was more than double that of white boys
• Bangladeshi and Pakistani children with unemployed parents are more likely to enter higher education than their white counterparts
• In 2000, 30% of Pakistani students gained five or more good GCSEs, compared with 50% in the population as a whole
Politics
• There are two Muslim MPs: Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham Perry Barr) and Mohammed Sarwar (Labour, Glasgow Govan)
• Four Muslim peers: Lord Ahmed, Baroness Uddin, Lord Patel and Lord Alli
• One Muslim MEP: Bashir Khanbhai (Conservative, Eastern Region)
Economics
• There are 5,400 Muslim millionaires (measured by cash and stocks but not property)
• 77% of Pakistani and 45% of Bangladeshi households are owner-occupiers
• 43% of Bangladeshis live in council or housing association properties - 50% higher than the national average
• Sources: Muslim Council of Britain; Muslim News, Population Trends, Autumn 2001, ONS: `The sizes and characteristics of ethnic populations of Great Britain; Performance & Innovation Unit, Cabinet Office - Ethnic Minorities in the Labour Market; Q News; Datamonitor; Institute of Islamic Banking and Insurance; BBC; FT; Muslim Directory; Salaam Muslim Information Resources; Runnymede Trust; Dr Aziz Shaikh, Imperial College School of Medicine - Caring for Muslim patients; Muncipal Year Book.
Compiled by the Guardian Research Department

Aslam644:

sorry i don,t have the stats on turks.....but i cannot imagine them being very different

Kulharee:

i don`t want to get out of germany to land in the friggin US. when i leave this country it will hopefully be for a better destination than the current one i inhabit or the one you recomend :) i am a student here and plan to get out as soon as my degree is done. Apart from that ......danke fur das kompliment!

dnaeem:

your argument is commonly used by the proponents of the school that argue : the poor are poor cause they want/deserve to be poor. i consider this racist.

>dnaeem:

>your argument is commonly used by the proponents of the school that argue : the poor are >poor cause they want/deserve to be poor. i consider this racist.

Rezwan:

u got this a little bit wrong, i never wanted to say that poor deserve to be poor, but yes the other part is true, in welfare states like Germany, people can remain poor only if they really want to remain like this, or in other words if they dont even try to improve their own standards and always look towards the state for it, sadly i feel this is the case, and i have seen lots of such examples, not only with the turks but also with the pakistanis who live here as asylum seekers and although are quite capable but love to take ``arbeitlos`` or ``unemployment benefit`` from the government, and i think that is what merkel (who became chancellor today) will try to straight out....

Dear Farzana, Chowk Staff, and Chowkies, this is a serious alert ...

for an insidious assault on Chowkies` privacy. I believe that the previous administration, including member(s) of Chowk Staff have helped John Galt (aka JG or JagdeeshGodbole) in obtaining confidential information, such as e-mail and IP addresses, about certain Chowkies. This information has been shared with Saminasha and Scout and involves Temporal and a few other insiders. Not very long ago, a post was intercepted and it was clear that the intended victim was Dalit. Recently other victims have been myself, Queenie, and a couple of others seen as ``enemies`` by this gang of insiders. This information is discussed and exchanged in media outside of Chowk, such as e-mails and other websites and chatrooms.

While this is a breach of confidentiality and certainly against all norms of ethical conduct and possibly US laws, it is very difficult to prove in a court of law. You have to prove that the act was intentional, malicious, and resulted in tangible harm to the victims. Emotional distress is no longer a guarantee for conviction.

I have been using Anonymous IP software for a very long time to preclude my IP address from being divulged. Not that I care, but it is fun to have them think that I am in UK one minute, and then in Poland the next, while appearing in US, Canada, and even Germany during the day. Almost all my life is an open book and I really don`t care about people knowing more about me than they already do. But, I do not appreciate covert actions, behind my back, to use insider information and break a trust that was ostensibly established between Chowk and Chowkies. The identities and locations of Chowk Management are well known as are the ones for some of the criminal perptetrators. I hope they realize this.

If, however, any actual harm comes to me or my family as a result of John Galt, Temporal, Scout, or Saminasha`s despicable and immoral behavior, I will come looking for them. We can always start with Ms. McDonald and go from there.

So, here is my sincere request:
1. Chowk Management need to investigate and correct this obvious breach of confidentiality.
2. The pernicious activity by JohnGalt (JagdeeshGodbole), Temporal, Scout, and Saminasha needs to stop RIGHT NOW.
3. A simple apology from the perpertrators will suffice once this silly game is stopped.

Thanks,

If you cannot integrate existing immigrants the European countries should not admit any new immigrants.

Salim_Chauhan #11

What are you afraid of ?

Guest workers supposed to be working and not procreating. It`s like screwin aroun on the yob.