The Trial of a Nation

given how ``excited`` you get after receiving gaalis from us muslims, i figured that long time back. now please go back to your gutter, cause human beings are trying to have a decent discussion here. shahbash.

Re: # 107

>>>>post was pakistanis and not for kuttay kee aulads like yourself.<<<<

No Faisal Yaar, I am not a practicing Muslim. You must be mistaking for someone else. Apology accepted in advance.

hey kulharee, problems with your eyesight? that post was pakistanis and not for kuttay kee aulads like yourself. if you know whats best for you, you will stay quiet.

godot,

sure pak has huge amount of problems. but things are slowly turning around. i am optimistic.

Re: # 104

>>>>hey pakistanis. guess which muslim country do arabs most want to see as a super power?<<<<

The pigs also want to see Israel be pushed into sea. They can want what they like. I am sure they also want flying carpets and virgin camels. Ain’t gonna happen.

Re: # 104

Faisal

Pakistan is the natural leader of the Ummah. It is the most open society with an open and thriving press (the Press is the key to a country`s future.) Only if Pakistan could get its house in order. Pakistan has a potential beyond anyone`s imagination. Realizing its potential and working towards to achieve it is the obstacle Pakistanis must over come.

hey pakistanis. guess which muslim country do arabs most want to see as a super power?

hint: its not the historical muslim power house turkey. rather, its our very own poor, stinky pakistan. and the reason for this honour?

pak sarkar`s esposuing of important ummah causes given short shift by arab governments scared of their own awam and thus dependent on amreeka`s good will for survival. in addition, pak`s not playing by the rules layed down by the goras is also an important factor in ditermining pak`s perception in the eyes of arabs and i would argue ummah as a whole. most obvious manifestation of pak thumbing its nose at the goras: its nuclear program which also lets people know that pak is not all talk and no action. in fact even exotic muslims like malays and indonesians have expressed their admiration for pak`s nuclear program to me personally. also the fact that pak`s sarkar is not extreme like iranian sarkar is an important factor in pak`s perception in the eyes of muslims cause muslims are not extremist.

i would also argue that pak will benefit from its stance in the long run cause islam influenced parties/groups getting closer to power in most mulim countries. has already happened in turkey and would happen in places like egypt, jordan and syria tomorrow if those governments were to hold elections.

btw, its not very often that pak finds itself in such august company.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-mideast-usa-poll.html

``...The poll, conducted in six Arab countries in October...Asked from a list of countries which they would like to be the superpower, the first choice was France with 21 percent, followed by China with 13 percent, Pakistan and Germany tied with 10 percent, Britain with 7 percent, the United States with 6 percent and finally Russia with 5 percent...``

#101

I think I had seen that report and it may contain some truth too. What is the point for me to simply disagree when I cannot contradict this report with the documentations that belie some of the assertions? So I am not going to get into that area.

In situations like that the basic question that needs to be asked is: why would China help Pakistan for almost 20 years in this Project? Obviously, there was never enough money in it for china to risk sanctions from the US at a time when the US investments in China were increasing with every passing year.
Secondly, what geo-political interest China has in Pakistan-India good or bad relations?

Do you not think the risk for China was far greater if they were slapped with the sanctions? Protecting Pakistan from India or pressuring India thru Pakistan appears to be not a viable consideration when China itself had enough muscles to put any kind of pressure on India, political or military.

I also would like to mention something that may help you look in other areas. From 1979 to until almost the late 80s, Pakistan had the biggest CIA office and contingent outside the US. It was believed that they had covered every Pakistani department and especially military and nuke related sites with Satellites and foot passengers. All the nuke work took place right under their nose. Think about this real hard. One more hint…Pretty much all scientists from the KRL were regular visitors to Canada until 1997.

China did help in certain areas but lots of help came form other sources and someday everything will come out in open.

AlephNull

What`s your point re Pakistan`s nuclear weapons? (Please be brief and succinct.)

#100
http://www.nti.org/db/china/npakpos.htm

``ew insights into the level of Chinese assistance to Pakistan came about in early 2004 as a result of on-site investigations into Libya`s nuclear weapons program, following Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi`s dramatic reversal on WMD programs in late 2003. As part of disarmament inspections, early Chinese nuclear weapons designs were handed over to IAEA inspectors by Libyan scientists, wrapped in plastic bags bearing an address in Islamabad. The possession by a third party of complete step-by-step instructions for a workable implosion-type bomb raised anew concerns over China`s proliferation history with Pakistan, as notes included in the package of documents reportedly suggested that China continued to mentor Pakistani scientists on the finer points of bomb-building over several years following the technology transfers. Both China and Pakistan have refused to admit any knowledge of the transfer.``

#98

“But the evidence for Chinese supplying the following is absolutely clear:”

I dont know if it is really absolutely clear... But possiblities exist for every thing...

I have not paid attention to the Iran nukes.
Is China helping Iran too?
did we ever find out who is the real genius behind there?

bongdongs #96

{{What would be our best estimate for the Pakistani fisile material stockpile:}}

The brief answer is that I have absolutely no idea.

I can guess at how one might go about getting crude upper bounds. For an enrichment plant, it would be most helpful to know the number of centrifuges and their design (later generations, operating at higher rpms, were much more efficient than earlier ones). Given that information, one could compare with the output of comparably sized plants elsewhere to estimate the Kahuta plant’s output assuming that its equipment had a similar duty cycle. That is a big assumption given how sensitive those centrifuges are alleged to be.

Lacking that information, information on the plant’s energy consumption or its intake of hexafluoride might be helpful.

For a plutonium-breeding reactor, perhaps a measure of its size would give a crude upper bound on the amount of uranium it contains. From that, one could estimate the rate at which it breeds plutonium. There are known constraints if you want the plutonium to be weapons grade.

As you can see, the uncertainties in determining these factors could lead to estimates differing from one another by a couple of orders of magnitude. However, the US non-proliferation community doesn’t seem to be handicapped by any of this. They have at various times produced estimates of Pakistan’s fissile material stockpile. Make your own assessment of the worth of these figures.

#95

You may dispute the supply of actual fissle material to Pakistan from China. But the evidence for Chinese supplying the following is absolutely clear:

- Supply of critical equipment to Kahuta HEU plant.
- Bomb designs (see the evidence that came out of Libya, it consisted of notes made by Pakistani scientists from a series of seminars given by Chinese experts on bomb design)
- Complete supply (turnkey) of the unsafegarded 50 MWt heavy water pressurized reactor at Khushab.
- Possible participation in setting up unsafegaurded heavy water plant at Khushab.
- Possible supply of heavy water to start up the Khushab reactor.

#93

Given the Pakistani emphasis on their missile program, I dont think there is any doubt about their acess to Plutonium other than from Khushab.

#94

Aleph, would be interested in your views on this:

What would be our best estimate for the Pakistani fisile material stockpile:

- given our best known estimates for the capacity of HEU plant at Kahuta and the period of operation.

- About plutonium stockpiles we know that Pinstech ``New Labs`` has experimented over two decades with plutonium speration so assuming that part of the technology is mastered and assuming Khushab has been running for lets say 10 years.

Just a snippet from my post #72

“This dolt lives in a fantasy world…His claim is that the Chinese gave the nukes to Pakistan and Chinese conducted the Pakistani nuke test and the tests never happened in Chagai, Balochistan…Talk about clueless and delusional.”

iron_mask #68

{{Why were the likes of Libya Iran and others interested in these ugly processing machines! (including pakistan - maybe they are just a bit clever and are not using it in reality but processing Pu!)}}

I am currently agnostic about whether Pakistan managed to get their centrifuge effort to produce useful quantities of HEU. I’ve not seen anything conclusive in either direction. There are plenty of reports that material and components required for an enrichment effort were been imported in large quantities. Some of the centrifuge components were being fabricated in Malaysia. How well the whole thing worked is open to conjecture.

As to why the Libyans and Iranians were interested – why not string the suckers along in exchange for money, influence (and perhaps yellowcake from Libya)?

Incidentally, it’s very interesting that those, including American journalists and non-proliferation ayatollahs, who play up the work of German gnomes in aiding the Pakistani effort, rarely mention the sterling contributions of China. These range from providing several thousand cobalt-samarium ring magnets (used to levitate centrifuges while avoiding conventional bearings) to reportedly passing on the blueprint of the fourth device China tested – supposedly a robust tried-and-tested design. The usual suspects from Pakistan often react with rage when these connections are mentioned.